How disturbing. I’d like to see an effort made to get Davis out of the country. His enemies admit they’re threatening him, and they’ve tracked him down.
They also mention what their criminal plan is. Davis is in danger. Who can help?
To the author of the hatemail, Your dangerous writing and possible acting-out I believe is instigated from REAL public hate speeches that inspire violence and are often preached by +Akinola and his accomplices at the Anglican Church Province of Nigeria! Here are a couple of examples of the despicable hatemongering public pronouncements from the lips of +Akinola that may cause crimes of HATE: “Homosexuality and lesbianism thrives on many sexual aberrations and improvisations typical of human selfishness and greed in the name of pleasure and self-actualization.” and “Homosexuality and lesbianism, like divorce, breed a society of single parents which gives… Read more »
Do not presume this came from the church or church authorities. They have probably had enough legal advice to know that such a thing is extremely foolish. Davis is dealing with a “stalker” situation which could easily be a few private but fervant individuals. Their comments about Davis being in the wilderness can actually be flattering. Hoseea 2 is worth a read. God being very angry with his wife for lewdness and Baal sacrifices and expelling her. 2:10 “So now I will expose her lewdness before the eyes of her lovers; no one will take her out of my hands.”… Read more »
laurence
17 years ago
heavy heart
feel powerless
wish him well -will such thoughts reach him ?
or melt hearts of hate
Merseymike
17 years ago
This is quite appalling
What is Williams the Spineless planning to do about it?
Absolutely horrible. The last thing we need is such threats and infighting throughout the Communion. It must be hard enough to be a gay or lesbian Christian in Nigeria, thanks to the inhuman cultural norms against them and the rhetoric or Akinola and others, but this is beyond measure. Just makes you sick reading about it.
Prayers to Davis and these self-proclaimed enemies.
I agree that this death threat is extremely unlikely to have been initiated by anyone connected with the hierarchy, but the words and actions of the church leaders foster the climate that encourages this sort of hate crime (which is why the proposed legislation should be opposed).
Dave
17 years ago
Merseymike wrote. “What is Williams the Spineless planning to do about it?” Dear Merseymike, ALL such death threats are wrong. I’d be surprised if ++Willians felt that he had to speak out about a particular case. As all death threats are wrong, would you like to speak out against the vehemence and threats by “Gay Rights” protesters after the Lords vote in 1998 that went against lowering the age of consent for homosexual sex to 16 ? “As the Peers were leaving the House of Lords, those who voted against the Government were insulted, sneered at and received death threats.”… Read more »
Cynthia writes: “Do not presume this came from the church or church authorities.”
Indeed, I hope not. What will be interesting is to see whether Akinola disowns it or not.
Alan Harrison
17 years ago
Merseymike asks: “What is Williams the Spineless planning to do about it?” Two questions, Mike: 1. Do you have to be so constantly rude about the Archbishop? 2. What do you suggest the Archbishop should or could “do about it”? I don’t think that the people threatening Mr Mac-Iyalla would take a blind bit of notice of any godly admonition against harming him promulgated from Lambeth. I agree with Josh that Mr Mac-Iyalla might be well-advised to get out of Nigeria. If he did so, maybe the Archbishop could try to use any influence he may have with the government… Read more »
drdanfee
17 years ago
Its up to the rest of us to help sponsor safety, if even that is temporarily possible. Is Mac-Iyalla willing to go into exile? Are there those of means who will help him?
On the other hand, dying while living inside a new and better paradigm is probably better for some queer folks than continuing to live in the bankrupt old frameworks. Death vs Living Death?
Stop, please. Nutty anonymous death threats are not a basis for argument. The utterances of churchmen certainly feed a homophobic climate in many countries — Italy and the USA spring to mind — but it is a step too far to connect the nuts directly with the churchmen. Avoid meretricious arguments, please.
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
17 years ago
Dave recalled:
“As the Peers were leaving the House of Lords, those who voted against the Government were insulted, sneered at and received death threats.” [Daily Mail, 23 July 1998]
I would want a more reliable source than the Daily Mail, whose vested interest seems to be to portray anyone ‘liberal’ as a threat to Western civilisation. Remember this is the paper which published the Zinoviev letter, in the full knowledge that it was a fake, because it was useful for its political agenda. Cui bono?
Changing Attitude England has been in daily contact with Davis since the emails threatening his life first arrived. I am phoning him every morning to ensure that he is still safe and alive. Protecting Davis by getting him out of Nigeria and/or claiming asylum isn’t simple or easy, as previous posts have indicated. Without revealing any details, I can assure people we are working on it. Davis will be reading the posts on TA. There is no proven connection between the person or persons delivering the threats and Archbishop Akinola or the hierarchy of the Church of Nigeria. I do… Read more »
Merseymike
17 years ago
Yes, I would condemn all death threats. You must have spent a long time looking for that one in your compendium of anti-gay propaganda, Dave! 1998 and a report in the Daily Mail – is that the best you can do? The fact is that Davis is part of the Nigerian church – a church with a leader who has made some blatantly homophobic statements. Legislation is being prepared which will, I think, mean we will see many more asylum cases of gay men from Nigeria. Williams should be firstly, emphasising that there should be no place for death threats… Read more »
Martin Reynolds
17 years ago
These death threats are all too real and as the murder of Fannyann Eddy shows are all too frequently acted out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannyann_Eddy
Many gay and lesbian rights workers have fled to other countries, many stay and continue the work despite the ever present danger to the lives.
The complicity of religious people in their persecution, imprisonment and deaths is sadly all too true, as we can see from the Church sponsored laws in Nigeria.
Tunde
17 years ago
This is really disturbing. I have immediately written to the e-mail address and copied Simon if he wants to make it public. The Church of Nigeria cannot support such if it is true. Having dealt with people like Davis before, I will however not believe the story. (I know most TA readers believe he must be truthful since he is gay) Since I learnt his interest is to seek asylum which was refused, I cannot but see a plot.
Here is the copy of the letter Tunde mentions above: Dear Femi, Our attention has been drawn to mails purportedly from your address which indicate that you are so incensed with a fellow named Davis Mac-Iyalla that you are contemplating taking the law into your own hands. This mail is an appeal to you to please reconsider such as it is not only counter- productive, it will in fact endanger your life and negatively impact on the Church our dear country. I will like you to consider the following points. 1. Two wrongs never equal to a right. Both wrongs… Read more »
Tunde
17 years ago
“impact on the Church our dear country.” should read
‘impact on the Church AND our dear country.’
Merseymike
17 years ago
So, Tunde, whatever Davis says, he will be labelled a liar from your quarters. And this is supposed to be listening? You demonstrate so very well what is wrong with your church. I do not know if Davis is genuine or not , because I have not met him, but your attitude is repellent. Given your support for the current legislation, you are of course enabling future asylum seekers from Nigeria to be far more successful in their claims – it is clear enough that Nigeria is not a safe place for a gay person to live, and you,, Tunde,… Read more »
Brenda Harrison
17 years ago
Tunde You condemn yourself from your own mouth. I know you believe Davis must be lying since he is gay,but in spite of your half hearted statement that `the Church cannot support such if it is true’, you then proceed in the email to Simon to repeat the same unsubstantiated and malicious slander against Davis alleging that he is a con man and that he has sought asylum. I have asked you previously to produce your evidence or withdraw your allegations. It is a sin to bear false witness against your neighbour. If you are serious about `not supporting’ these… Read more »
Ford Elms
17 years ago
Tunde, I applaud your action in writing to the person who alledgedly sent the emails. I think you should also consider however how the way in which the Church of Nigeria preaches its message about homosexuality. I am not arguing with the message itself, but with the way in which it is expressed. Surely you can see that it creates the conditions in which such a person can feel justified in doing this kind of thing. “Having dealt with people like Davis before, I will however not believe the story.” Yeah right. I don’t think he’s truthful because he’s gay,… Read more »
“The man Davis in our own findings is a con-man…Issuing threats to him can only result in the increase of funds to him from unsuspecting sympathizers as well as help him in his goal of seeking asylum outside Nigeria.” Tunde My, that was unhelpful Canon Tunde. “Blessed peacemaking” is not usually done by using hatemongering, slandering and then telling unsupportable lies by smearing the potential murder victim with hate YOU enthusiastically generate! Tunde, YOU have just driven another nail into the coffin of “Davis” by charging him as a “Con Man”….a Con Man “according to YOUR own findings.” More Nigerian/Akinolan… Read more »
drdanfee
17 years ago
Tunde – and others – thanks loads for taking the time to write to discourage any violence against Mac-Iyalla (or those supporting him, who will become criminals under the new pending Nigerian law?). Any support to restrain violence is welcome. No doubt about it. I will not weigh into the fray about Mac-Iyalla’s alleged character. Generally: Being straight and religious and Nigerian in itself, unfortunately, does not make you innately nothing but truthful, any more than being gay and/or irreligious makes a person nothing but untruthful. Presuming just so is a handy example of the categorical, definitional, and presuppositional hermeneutics… Read more »
Neil Barber
17 years ago
Good grief. Tunde is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.
Rose
17 years ago
Davis has never sought asylum anywhere Tunde, I will never believe that you are not part of this? Just listening to your self, what a shame the spokesman for the church of Nigeria responds in this way.
The threat mails are fruits of ++Akinola message and it is going to do more than threats if nothing is done.
Tunde
17 years ago
Guys! Thanks for the compliments. Praying God spare all our lives till the day the Truth will be revealed. Brenda, Not because he is gay but because I have come to know how people like him operate. I learnt of the asylum issue from the grapevine but I am now sure from Colin’s pleas that it is true. Colin may now wish to justify rather than continue to deny it. He may even be able to tell you how many different countries his friend has approached or how much funds he has funneled to him for meetings, transport, hospital fees,… Read more »
This is an example of how choosing to shun one element of humanity creates a conundrum and souls that are particularly vulnerable to predators. One comment that everyone should be able to appreciate simply by following this thread: stalkers rely on their victims not knowing who they are. One of their joys is inciting fear in their victims and having the power to cause distress in their daily lives. Whilst the victim is unaware of who they are and how they are finding out so much about them. The next level is when the victim knows who the stalker is,… Read more »
Tunde Thank you for trying to be supportive and well done for distinguishing between church and state. You are also a victim in that the perpetrators can paint that you are complicit with their actions. That core conundrum is the reason I have chosen the third path of an inclusive shelter, even for GLBTs. There is a clear stand that violence against anyone (psychological or physical) is unacceptable and clear exhortation that all souls should be aiming for reverence in their lives. I would rather have homosexuals who are celibate or in monogamous relationships because it is the most viable… Read more »
Good God. Here we have a pattern of death threats against Davis and this post degenerates into a discussion of the policies of the Church in Nigeria. First: protect the individual, because this is a very credible threat in a very dangerous place. That means act, if you have any power to do so. Tunde, thank you for your letter. Now please consider that there is much more you can do for this so-called con man, whom Jesus doesn’t want murdered any more than He does a law-abiding person. There is much more you can do. Second (to all): Pray.… Read more »
Merseymike
17 years ago
That’s not the issue, Tunde.
I haven’t a clue about his honesty because, as I have said, I haven’t met him.
But I do know that your attitudes are unhelpful.
Dave
17 years ago
Tunde has demonstrated that the Church of Nigeria does not support violence against gays or against gay rights campaigners – by publically rebuking the person who issued threats to stop, and telling them why !
I would now like to see some public statements from Colin Coward and Martin Reynolds acknowledging that, thanking the Church of Nigeria for it’s swift and supportive action, and clearly expressing regret for their previous statements – which infered that the ++Akinola, or the church, was supportive of such violence!
JCF
17 years ago
Prayers for Davis’ *safety*, and for Tunde’s *change of heart*.
“Williams should be firstly, emphasising that there should be no place for death threats against gay and lesbian Christians and Anglicans. he should say that the Anglican Church condemns utterly such behaviour.” But note that Canon Tunde of Nigeria has already condemned it utterly. If R Williams were to say what you recomment he would be implying that Nigerian churchmen are not able to say it for themselves, which would be an outrageous allegation. Unlike the Pope, Abp Williams does not have direct jurisdiction over all the clergy in the worldwide communion and even the Pope would be very loth… Read more »
Davis Mac-Iyalla
17 years ago
Canon Tunde, I am not seeking any asylum and do not intend to do so as long as that bill to ban same sex relationships is not passed yet in nigeria. But I will keep speaking against it because it will make me and all nigerian LGBTS an outcast if it becomes a law in nigeria. You take the threat to my life as untrue because I will not give heed to your advice to stop CAN or deny my sexuality. You have been accusing and making false allegations about me calling me names to rubbish my image and constantly… Read more »
Tunde, this is a very difficult comment to write. Right now, 8.00am UK time, I feel huge despair and anger having read your posts to this thread. I have met Davis and he has met me. We honour each other as committed Christians and faithful Anglicans who both happen to be gay. We were born gay – by God’s grace we both became Christians. At the end of 2005 you published a statement making allegations against Davis, the majority of which we have proved to be false. You have never produced a single piece of evidence to substantiate your allegations.… Read more »
Tunde
17 years ago
Davis, Peace to you. I never told you to stop CAN. Most Christians in Nigeria know that stands for Christian Association of Nigeria which is currently headed by Abp. Akinola. I did not even tell you to stop your CA group activities since you and I know most are unreal. What I told you to stop was your dubious ways. Why would I be so insulting? You claimed to be a knight of Otukpo Diocese. The Bishop said he has never met anyone so named. In Otukpo, everyone including those you displayed having photographs with you debunked your knighthood and… Read more »
Tunde
17 years ago
P.S. Davis
The only thing that can change my mind about you is for the Diocese of Otukpo (which you claimed you represented) to issue a clearance on you. For now what they have is a police report. You can phone the Bishop or the office (numbers on the web) to clear yourself if you cannot go there physically.
Clear yourself of the scams and I’d issue a loud APOLOGY even if you are a gay campaigner.
Davis Mac-Iyalla
17 years ago
Canon Tunde, To put it mildly your post and comments stinks, I repeat all your allegations against me are false, i have in the past spent time and energy revealing my truth and honesty to you but you have made your mind not to believe me maybe because i am gay. It is now your turn to make those documents you have in your possession public to support your allegations. There is no new tactics that you will use that can implicate me because i am innocent and honest with my work to late +ugede and the church of nigeria.… Read more »
Dave
17 years ago
Tunde wrote: “Dear Femi, Our attention has been drawn to mails purportedly from your address which indicate that you are so incensed with a fellow named Davis Mac-Iyalla that you are contemplating taking the law into your own hands. This mail is an appeal to you to please reconsider such as…” “1. Two wrongs never equal to a right. Both wrongs would be judged. etc” Colin Coward wrote: “Tunde… I feel huge despair and anger having read your posts to this thread.” Dear Colin, aren’t you reacting more against what you *fear* the Church of Nigeria is like, rather than… Read more »
Merseymike
17 years ago
Tunde ; I don’t care about any of that. Have your spats with fellow members of your church in private What I do care about is that you have failed, utterly to do what is needed to prevent these sort of threats. You support homophobia, not only in your Church, but in the laws of your State. Your so-called condemnation is full of caveats and is as two faced and dishonest as I would expect. You are a homophobe and a hate-monger, and if anything happens to Davis or any other gay man or lesbian in Nigeria, it is you… Read more »
Dave wrote: “Tunde has demonstrated that the Church of Nigeria does not support violence against gays or against gay rights campaigners – by publicly rebuking the person who issued threats to stop…” No dear Dave, he hasn’t. He sent a private e-mail to a (fake?) address. That is not “publicly” anything. Dave wrote: “… and telling them why !” No, again dear Dave, he didn’t. Tunde said Mr Mac-Iyalla was “a con man” and that he knew his “sort”. That is rather the opposite. Dave wrote: “I would now like to see some public statements from Colin Coward and Martin… Read more »
Neil Barber
17 years ago
Goran, I think you prove my point. When I read all the comments that predictably just rush to dismiss and discredit and attack the Church of Nigeria no matter what they do, I am deeply saddened. It is certainly not thinking Anglicanism and I wonder how it can be squared with anything remotely Christian.
Dave, we have never met but I read your comments on TA and form an impression of your attitudes and stance towards LGBT people and Christianity. We are brothers in our Church under God, whatever our differences might be on particular issues. You have integrity and I have integrity, and so do Tunde and Archbishop Akinola and the Church of Nigeria. We are all members of the Anglican Communion and I respect and honour our one-ness in Christ, heterosexual, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered. You wrote: “Tunde has demonstrated that the Church of Nigeria does not support violence against gays… Read more »
Tunde, Josh wrote above that there is much more you can do. I, predictably, agree. There are a number of things you could do, you personally and the Church of Nigeria, to ensure Davis is protected, in addition to posting a public statement on the Church of Nigeria web site. As well as criticising the Episcopal Church of the USA, the Church of Canada and the Church of England for variously ordaining and consecrating lesbian and gay people, and blessing relationships, as referred to in the Windsor Report, paragraphs 144 and 145, you could also take action on paragraph 146,… Read more »
Postings on this TA thread are no substitute for proper engagement within the structures and mechanisms of the Church. Changing Attitude England and Nigeria are fully committed to this process. I have not yet seen any such commitment from the Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion). There has to be a 100% commitment from everyone in the Communion to the protection of the lives of LGBT people and to the listening process. If any of us are partial in our response to Windsor, we are not respecting the authority of the report or of the Instruments of Unity. To be committed… Read more »
“Peace comes when you heal rather than judge”. Alice Miller’s works e.g. “Banished Knowledge” are excellent. One relevant insight she shares is that the Freudian model of seeking full healing by full memory recovery and reconciliation between victims and perpetrators is flawed. Two condundrums often make it impossible. Firstly, there is an assumption that everything has been recalled. Miller cites that many crimes of violence arise when a victim recalls another violation after they are meant to be “fully healed” and they therefore they act out their anger in the worst possible way. Secondly, there is an assumption that the… Read more »
How disturbing. I’d like to see an effort made to get Davis out of the country. His enemies admit they’re threatening him, and they’ve tracked him down.
They also mention what their criminal plan is. Davis is in danger. Who can help?
To the author of the hatemail, Your dangerous writing and possible acting-out I believe is instigated from REAL public hate speeches that inspire violence and are often preached by +Akinola and his accomplices at the Anglican Church Province of Nigeria! Here are a couple of examples of the despicable hatemongering public pronouncements from the lips of +Akinola that may cause crimes of HATE: “Homosexuality and lesbianism thrives on many sexual aberrations and improvisations typical of human selfishness and greed in the name of pleasure and self-actualization.” and “Homosexuality and lesbianism, like divorce, breed a society of single parents which gives… Read more »
Do not presume this came from the church or church authorities. They have probably had enough legal advice to know that such a thing is extremely foolish. Davis is dealing with a “stalker” situation which could easily be a few private but fervant individuals. Their comments about Davis being in the wilderness can actually be flattering. Hoseea 2 is worth a read. God being very angry with his wife for lewdness and Baal sacrifices and expelling her. 2:10 “So now I will expose her lewdness before the eyes of her lovers; no one will take her out of my hands.”… Read more »
heavy heart
feel powerless
wish him well -will such thoughts reach him ?
or melt hearts of hate
This is quite appalling
What is Williams the Spineless planning to do about it?
Absolutely horrible. The last thing we need is such threats and infighting throughout the Communion. It must be hard enough to be a gay or lesbian Christian in Nigeria, thanks to the inhuman cultural norms against them and the rhetoric or Akinola and others, but this is beyond measure. Just makes you sick reading about it.
Prayers to Davis and these self-proclaimed enemies.
Cheryl Clough —
I agree that this death threat is extremely unlikely to have been initiated by anyone connected with the hierarchy, but the words and actions of the church leaders foster the climate that encourages this sort of hate crime (which is why the proposed legislation should be opposed).
Merseymike wrote. “What is Williams the Spineless planning to do about it?” Dear Merseymike, ALL such death threats are wrong. I’d be surprised if ++Willians felt that he had to speak out about a particular case. As all death threats are wrong, would you like to speak out against the vehemence and threats by “Gay Rights” protesters after the Lords vote in 1998 that went against lowering the age of consent for homosexual sex to 16 ? “As the Peers were leaving the House of Lords, those who voted against the Government were insulted, sneered at and received death threats.”… Read more »
Cynthia writes: “Do not presume this came from the church or church authorities.”
Indeed, I hope not. What will be interesting is to see whether Akinola disowns it or not.
Merseymike asks: “What is Williams the Spineless planning to do about it?” Two questions, Mike: 1. Do you have to be so constantly rude about the Archbishop? 2. What do you suggest the Archbishop should or could “do about it”? I don’t think that the people threatening Mr Mac-Iyalla would take a blind bit of notice of any godly admonition against harming him promulgated from Lambeth. I agree with Josh that Mr Mac-Iyalla might be well-advised to get out of Nigeria. If he did so, maybe the Archbishop could try to use any influence he may have with the government… Read more »
Its up to the rest of us to help sponsor safety, if even that is temporarily possible. Is Mac-Iyalla willing to go into exile? Are there those of means who will help him?
On the other hand, dying while living inside a new and better paradigm is probably better for some queer folks than continuing to live in the bankrupt old frameworks. Death vs Living Death?
Alas. Lord have mercy.
Stop, please. Nutty anonymous death threats are not a basis for argument. The utterances of churchmen certainly feed a homophobic climate in many countries — Italy and the USA spring to mind — but it is a step too far to connect the nuts directly with the churchmen. Avoid meretricious arguments, please.
Dave recalled:
“As the Peers were leaving the House of Lords, those who voted against the Government were insulted, sneered at and received death threats.” [Daily Mail, 23 July 1998]
I would want a more reliable source than the Daily Mail, whose vested interest seems to be to portray anyone ‘liberal’ as a threat to Western civilisation. Remember this is the paper which published the Zinoviev letter, in the full knowledge that it was a fake, because it was useful for its political agenda. Cui bono?
Changing Attitude England has been in daily contact with Davis since the emails threatening his life first arrived. I am phoning him every morning to ensure that he is still safe and alive. Protecting Davis by getting him out of Nigeria and/or claiming asylum isn’t simple or easy, as previous posts have indicated. Without revealing any details, I can assure people we are working on it. Davis will be reading the posts on TA. There is no proven connection between the person or persons delivering the threats and Archbishop Akinola or the hierarchy of the Church of Nigeria. I do… Read more »
Yes, I would condemn all death threats. You must have spent a long time looking for that one in your compendium of anti-gay propaganda, Dave! 1998 and a report in the Daily Mail – is that the best you can do? The fact is that Davis is part of the Nigerian church – a church with a leader who has made some blatantly homophobic statements. Legislation is being prepared which will, I think, mean we will see many more asylum cases of gay men from Nigeria. Williams should be firstly, emphasising that there should be no place for death threats… Read more »
These death threats are all too real and as the murder of Fannyann Eddy shows are all too frequently acted out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fannyann_Eddy
Many gay and lesbian rights workers have fled to other countries, many stay and continue the work despite the ever present danger to the lives.
The complicity of religious people in their persecution, imprisonment and deaths is sadly all too true, as we can see from the Church sponsored laws in Nigeria.
This is really disturbing. I have immediately written to the e-mail address and copied Simon if he wants to make it public. The Church of Nigeria cannot support such if it is true. Having dealt with people like Davis before, I will however not believe the story. (I know most TA readers believe he must be truthful since he is gay) Since I learnt his interest is to seek asylum which was refused, I cannot but see a plot.
Here is the copy of the letter Tunde mentions above: Dear Femi, Our attention has been drawn to mails purportedly from your address which indicate that you are so incensed with a fellow named Davis Mac-Iyalla that you are contemplating taking the law into your own hands. This mail is an appeal to you to please reconsider such as it is not only counter- productive, it will in fact endanger your life and negatively impact on the Church our dear country. I will like you to consider the following points. 1. Two wrongs never equal to a right. Both wrongs… Read more »
“impact on the Church our dear country.” should read
‘impact on the Church AND our dear country.’
So, Tunde, whatever Davis says, he will be labelled a liar from your quarters. And this is supposed to be listening? You demonstrate so very well what is wrong with your church. I do not know if Davis is genuine or not , because I have not met him, but your attitude is repellent. Given your support for the current legislation, you are of course enabling future asylum seekers from Nigeria to be far more successful in their claims – it is clear enough that Nigeria is not a safe place for a gay person to live, and you,, Tunde,… Read more »
Tunde You condemn yourself from your own mouth. I know you believe Davis must be lying since he is gay,but in spite of your half hearted statement that `the Church cannot support such if it is true’, you then proceed in the email to Simon to repeat the same unsubstantiated and malicious slander against Davis alleging that he is a con man and that he has sought asylum. I have asked you previously to produce your evidence or withdraw your allegations. It is a sin to bear false witness against your neighbour. If you are serious about `not supporting’ these… Read more »
Tunde, I applaud your action in writing to the person who alledgedly sent the emails. I think you should also consider however how the way in which the Church of Nigeria preaches its message about homosexuality. I am not arguing with the message itself, but with the way in which it is expressed. Surely you can see that it creates the conditions in which such a person can feel justified in doing this kind of thing. “Having dealt with people like Davis before, I will however not believe the story.” Yeah right. I don’t think he’s truthful because he’s gay,… Read more »
“The man Davis in our own findings is a con-man…Issuing threats to him can only result in the increase of funds to him from unsuspecting sympathizers as well as help him in his goal of seeking asylum outside Nigeria.” Tunde My, that was unhelpful Canon Tunde. “Blessed peacemaking” is not usually done by using hatemongering, slandering and then telling unsupportable lies by smearing the potential murder victim with hate YOU enthusiastically generate! Tunde, YOU have just driven another nail into the coffin of “Davis” by charging him as a “Con Man”….a Con Man “according to YOUR own findings.” More Nigerian/Akinolan… Read more »
Tunde – and others – thanks loads for taking the time to write to discourage any violence against Mac-Iyalla (or those supporting him, who will become criminals under the new pending Nigerian law?). Any support to restrain violence is welcome. No doubt about it. I will not weigh into the fray about Mac-Iyalla’s alleged character. Generally: Being straight and religious and Nigerian in itself, unfortunately, does not make you innately nothing but truthful, any more than being gay and/or irreligious makes a person nothing but untruthful. Presuming just so is a handy example of the categorical, definitional, and presuppositional hermeneutics… Read more »
Good grief. Tunde is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.
Davis has never sought asylum anywhere Tunde, I will never believe that you are not part of this? Just listening to your self, what a shame the spokesman for the church of Nigeria responds in this way.
The threat mails are fruits of ++Akinola message and it is going to do more than threats if nothing is done.
Guys! Thanks for the compliments. Praying God spare all our lives till the day the Truth will be revealed. Brenda, Not because he is gay but because I have come to know how people like him operate. I learnt of the asylum issue from the grapevine but I am now sure from Colin’s pleas that it is true. Colin may now wish to justify rather than continue to deny it. He may even be able to tell you how many different countries his friend has approached or how much funds he has funneled to him for meetings, transport, hospital fees,… Read more »
This is an example of how choosing to shun one element of humanity creates a conundrum and souls that are particularly vulnerable to predators. One comment that everyone should be able to appreciate simply by following this thread: stalkers rely on their victims not knowing who they are. One of their joys is inciting fear in their victims and having the power to cause distress in their daily lives. Whilst the victim is unaware of who they are and how they are finding out so much about them. The next level is when the victim knows who the stalker is,… Read more »
Tunde Thank you for trying to be supportive and well done for distinguishing between church and state. You are also a victim in that the perpetrators can paint that you are complicit with their actions. That core conundrum is the reason I have chosen the third path of an inclusive shelter, even for GLBTs. There is a clear stand that violence against anyone (psychological or physical) is unacceptable and clear exhortation that all souls should be aiming for reverence in their lives. I would rather have homosexuals who are celibate or in monogamous relationships because it is the most viable… Read more »
I find all this and Tunde’s response just deeply disturbing: character assassination first and second.
Good God. Here we have a pattern of death threats against Davis and this post degenerates into a discussion of the policies of the Church in Nigeria. First: protect the individual, because this is a very credible threat in a very dangerous place. That means act, if you have any power to do so. Tunde, thank you for your letter. Now please consider that there is much more you can do for this so-called con man, whom Jesus doesn’t want murdered any more than He does a law-abiding person. There is much more you can do. Second (to all): Pray.… Read more »
That’s not the issue, Tunde.
I haven’t a clue about his honesty because, as I have said, I haven’t met him.
But I do know that your attitudes are unhelpful.
Tunde has demonstrated that the Church of Nigeria does not support violence against gays or against gay rights campaigners – by publically rebuking the person who issued threats to stop, and telling them why !
I would now like to see some public statements from Colin Coward and Martin Reynolds acknowledging that, thanking the Church of Nigeria for it’s swift and supportive action, and clearly expressing regret for their previous statements – which infered that the ++Akinola, or the church, was supportive of such violence!
Prayers for Davis’ *safety*, and for Tunde’s *change of heart*.
For that matter:
Lord, make ALL of our hearts more like Yours!
“Williams should be firstly, emphasising that there should be no place for death threats against gay and lesbian Christians and Anglicans. he should say that the Anglican Church condemns utterly such behaviour.” But note that Canon Tunde of Nigeria has already condemned it utterly. If R Williams were to say what you recomment he would be implying that Nigerian churchmen are not able to say it for themselves, which would be an outrageous allegation. Unlike the Pope, Abp Williams does not have direct jurisdiction over all the clergy in the worldwide communion and even the Pope would be very loth… Read more »
Canon Tunde, I am not seeking any asylum and do not intend to do so as long as that bill to ban same sex relationships is not passed yet in nigeria. But I will keep speaking against it because it will make me and all nigerian LGBTS an outcast if it becomes a law in nigeria. You take the threat to my life as untrue because I will not give heed to your advice to stop CAN or deny my sexuality. You have been accusing and making false allegations about me calling me names to rubbish my image and constantly… Read more »
Tunde, this is a very difficult comment to write. Right now, 8.00am UK time, I feel huge despair and anger having read your posts to this thread. I have met Davis and he has met me. We honour each other as committed Christians and faithful Anglicans who both happen to be gay. We were born gay – by God’s grace we both became Christians. At the end of 2005 you published a statement making allegations against Davis, the majority of which we have proved to be false. You have never produced a single piece of evidence to substantiate your allegations.… Read more »
Davis, Peace to you. I never told you to stop CAN. Most Christians in Nigeria know that stands for Christian Association of Nigeria which is currently headed by Abp. Akinola. I did not even tell you to stop your CA group activities since you and I know most are unreal. What I told you to stop was your dubious ways. Why would I be so insulting? You claimed to be a knight of Otukpo Diocese. The Bishop said he has never met anyone so named. In Otukpo, everyone including those you displayed having photographs with you debunked your knighthood and… Read more »
P.S. Davis
The only thing that can change my mind about you is for the Diocese of Otukpo (which you claimed you represented) to issue a clearance on you. For now what they have is a police report. You can phone the Bishop or the office (numbers on the web) to clear yourself if you cannot go there physically.
Clear yourself of the scams and I’d issue a loud APOLOGY even if you are a gay campaigner.
Canon Tunde, To put it mildly your post and comments stinks, I repeat all your allegations against me are false, i have in the past spent time and energy revealing my truth and honesty to you but you have made your mind not to believe me maybe because i am gay. It is now your turn to make those documents you have in your possession public to support your allegations. There is no new tactics that you will use that can implicate me because i am innocent and honest with my work to late +ugede and the church of nigeria.… Read more »
Tunde wrote: “Dear Femi, Our attention has been drawn to mails purportedly from your address which indicate that you are so incensed with a fellow named Davis Mac-Iyalla that you are contemplating taking the law into your own hands. This mail is an appeal to you to please reconsider such as…” “1. Two wrongs never equal to a right. Both wrongs would be judged. etc” Colin Coward wrote: “Tunde… I feel huge despair and anger having read your posts to this thread.” Dear Colin, aren’t you reacting more against what you *fear* the Church of Nigeria is like, rather than… Read more »
Tunde ; I don’t care about any of that. Have your spats with fellow members of your church in private What I do care about is that you have failed, utterly to do what is needed to prevent these sort of threats. You support homophobia, not only in your Church, but in the laws of your State. Your so-called condemnation is full of caveats and is as two faced and dishonest as I would expect. You are a homophobe and a hate-monger, and if anything happens to Davis or any other gay man or lesbian in Nigeria, it is you… Read more »
Neil Barber wrote: “Good grief. Tunde is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t.”
Well Neil Barber, if Tunde does not believe this death threat to be factual, why ever does he write an e-mail to its supposed sender?
Can you – or Tunde – explain to me?
Dave wrote: “Tunde has demonstrated that the Church of Nigeria does not support violence against gays or against gay rights campaigners – by publicly rebuking the person who issued threats to stop…” No dear Dave, he hasn’t. He sent a private e-mail to a (fake?) address. That is not “publicly” anything. Dave wrote: “… and telling them why !” No, again dear Dave, he didn’t. Tunde said Mr Mac-Iyalla was “a con man” and that he knew his “sort”. That is rather the opposite. Dave wrote: “I would now like to see some public statements from Colin Coward and Martin… Read more »
Goran, I think you prove my point. When I read all the comments that predictably just rush to dismiss and discredit and attack the Church of Nigeria no matter what they do, I am deeply saddened. It is certainly not thinking Anglicanism and I wonder how it can be squared with anything remotely Christian.
Dave, we have never met but I read your comments on TA and form an impression of your attitudes and stance towards LGBT people and Christianity. We are brothers in our Church under God, whatever our differences might be on particular issues. You have integrity and I have integrity, and so do Tunde and Archbishop Akinola and the Church of Nigeria. We are all members of the Anglican Communion and I respect and honour our one-ness in Christ, heterosexual, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered. You wrote: “Tunde has demonstrated that the Church of Nigeria does not support violence against gays… Read more »
Sorry Neil, I am Church of Sweden, not Anglican.
I don’t have to be “polite” in the face of oppression and politicking.
Tunde, Josh wrote above that there is much more you can do. I, predictably, agree. There are a number of things you could do, you personally and the Church of Nigeria, to ensure Davis is protected, in addition to posting a public statement on the Church of Nigeria web site. As well as criticising the Episcopal Church of the USA, the Church of Canada and the Church of England for variously ordaining and consecrating lesbian and gay people, and blessing relationships, as referred to in the Windsor Report, paragraphs 144 and 145, you could also take action on paragraph 146,… Read more »
Postings on this TA thread are no substitute for proper engagement within the structures and mechanisms of the Church. Changing Attitude England and Nigeria are fully committed to this process. I have not yet seen any such commitment from the Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion). There has to be a 100% commitment from everyone in the Communion to the protection of the lives of LGBT people and to the listening process. If any of us are partial in our response to Windsor, we are not respecting the authority of the report or of the Instruments of Unity. To be committed… Read more »
“Peace comes when you heal rather than judge”. Alice Miller’s works e.g. “Banished Knowledge” are excellent. One relevant insight she shares is that the Freudian model of seeking full healing by full memory recovery and reconciliation between victims and perpetrators is flawed. Two condundrums often make it impossible. Firstly, there is an assumption that everything has been recalled. Miller cites that many crimes of violence arise when a victim recalls another violation after they are meant to be “fully healed” and they therefore they act out their anger in the worst possible way. Secondly, there is an assumption that the… Read more »