Savitri Hensman has written an article on Comment is free which is titled Too big a tent with the strapline:
Rowan Williams preaches tolerance, but the Anglican church would rather pander to bigots than fight homophobia.
Her article concludes:
Meanwhile, at the Lambeth conference, the Archbishop of Canterbury appealed for a “covenant of faith” that would “promise to our fellow human beings the generosity God has shown us”, and suggested “a Pastoral Forum to support minorities”. But to him, those needing greater generosity and pastoral care were mainly Christians with strong objections to same-sex partnerships. While he is a humane man, his priorities seem strange. If Anglicans are to remain relevant, and a force for good, bishops need to listen more carefully to people like Michael Causer’s family.
Again the reprehensible insinuation that orthodox Christians condone in the slightest violence of any sort against homosexuals or not.
This practice should be condemned by true Christians of all varieties. For it will lead to “Christianphobia” – violence and persecution against Christians. Already we are seeing this in Western Europe. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_discrimination
Robroy:
Then why don’t your fellows in the Global South condemn it? Why did Abp Jensen have to step in and speak for Abp Akinola when the question was raised to him at GAFCON? Why do Akinola and Orombi deny that homosexuals even exist in their countries? Why is Davis Mac-Illya in exile and asylum in the UK?
“This practice should be condemned by true Christians of all varieties” Then why don’t you? Why, at Lambeth, were African bishops unable to do so when specifically asked? Why do conservatives consistently defend the use of language that adds to the risk of violence for gay people? Why do conservatives consistently deny the fact of anti-gay violence? You can see that on these boards, robroy, conservatives here do it all the time. If you think anti-gay violence is so horrible, why do you still refuse to explain why you believe 5 years jail for gay people is a “good compromise”?… Read more »
Robroy,
If you’re going to make wild claims about ‘violence and persecution’ against Christians in Western Europe it’s pretty stupid linking to an Wikipedia article that documents nothing of the sort happening. Arson against Norwegian churches and one person getting suspended from their job in the UK do not amount to persecution and to say so belittles the genuine persecution of Christians getting murdered in Indonesia and India.
“Civic leaders in Liverpool today signed a book of condolence for Michael and his family at the Town Hall. “In a letter today, Liverpool City Councillor Steve Radford, leader of the Liberal Party group, urged Liverpool church leaders to join secular leaders in signing the book. “Councillor Radford wrote: ‘May I urge you, along with other senior church leaders, take a public led challenging homophobia in the city. ‘We all appreciated you public stance after the murder of other young men motivated by the colour of their skin. ‘We pray you will be equally forthright condemning the violence and abuse… Read more »
Apparently the “hate the sin; love the sinner” theological defense to accusations of homophobia doesn’t wash in the eyes of the general public. Recently a poll of young adults in the USA found that about 60% found Christian churches to be homophobic. M Is this a case of mass delusion or brainwashing? Perhaps it is simply a case of listening to what is said and witnessing the consequences. When a church’s ethical views offend both common sense and common decency,it loses legitimacy. A few years ago in Alabama a young gay man was tortured and killed. The finishing touch was… Read more »
“blessing same-sex couples is apparently a far greater offence than allying with repressive governments to hunt them down.” Ouch!
“This practice should be condemned by true Christians of all varieties. For it will lead to “Christianphobia” – violence and persecution against Christians.”
And this is the Christian justification for opposing violence against gays and lesbians?
If those who call themselves “Christian” get back what they’ve dished out to us LGBT’s robroy, then let the chickens come home to roost. What was that about reaping what you’ve sowed?
Want to stop hate, then stop engaging in hateful behavior. And don’t go giving me that nonsense about “saving” me, there are enough kids out on the street tonight that have been “shunned” from their parents who didn’t think they were saved. All of this coming from the “loving” leadership of “Christianity”.
Rubbish.
Again the repugnant conflation of “orthodoxy” with heterosexism.
“This practice should be condemned by true Christians of all varieties.”
I had to re-read this twice, to be sure what RR was saying. NOT the sane, or MORAL contention: to condemn anti-LGBT violence.
No, you mean the practice OF “condemning anti-LGBT violence” should be condemned—that the homophobes are the victims!
Un-frickin-believable.
Lord have mercy!
“Again the reprehensible insinuation that orthodox Christians condone in the slightest violence of any sort against homosexuals or not.” Rob Roy (a drink that makes one drunken if consumed in multiples)
What insinuation? Oh you mean “God Hates Fags” or would that be Akinola’s famous “Hooligan Children” of LGBT people? When are the destructionists in our Anglican Communion going to start taking responsible for their vile actions agains other Anglicans/others?
Let us stop with the praying of all-holy PRETEND!
I am involved with police liaison work and the reaction of the city and its LGBT community to the recent murder.
We feel that the religious leaders need to take a stand and make it clear that part of the creation of homophobia is the culture from which it stems. the Church needs to confess to its part in the creation of that culture. Every time they oppose equality, make an anti-gay comment – they share the blame.
So many of my gay friends are seekers, looking for spiritual meaning for their lives. Yet they will not go into a church, even if I am preaching.
Why?
Because of all the hate- and fear-filled rhetoric of the right wing. Please tell me how talk of hating the “sin” while pretending to love the “sinner” would make anyone want to come hear the Gospel?
Is it so-called (or rather, self-called) “Orthodox” Christians, or the more progresive that drive these people away?
When we are asked when we visited the outcast, what will the “Orthodox” be able to say?
Nat
Robroy Going down these columns of comment, on Savitri Hensman’s article, I find that you are the one of the more vociferously evangelistic homophobe, and a good example of what she is saying.. I guess this is the sort of undisicplined bigotry that occasions the burden of the story. One of your theses is that every word in the Bible has some priority over the words and action of Jesus – the Word-made-flesh in the Gospels. Christians are those who follow Christ in his redemptive love of all humankind – irrespective of race, class, gender or sexual orientation (St. Paul:… Read more »
So, I suppose, every church that considers adultery wrong shares the blame whenever a jealous husband kills someone?
Ouch Hensman pokes right at the modern sore point. If conservative believers care so much and so deeply, what self-giving kenotic sacrifices are they able to make to stop the antigay, anti-queer folks violence all around the planet? The only concerted efforts I see and hear so far are efforts to loudly preach to queer folks: (A) you are innately disordered, defective, compared to straight folks, plus (B) we use awful religious and secular talk to describe you – see Abomination, see …. take your pick, it is a large nasty lexicon? … because that is the admittedly odious and… Read more »
Christians actually get it easy in the west. But that does not mean that there is not some gross, gross anti-Christian discrimination. One incredible example: Google accepts all kinds of pop-up adverts for husbands cheating on their wives and vice-versa, witchcraft, pornography and what have you. But offer them ‘Abortion news and views from the Christian Institute’ and they throw a fit. This is simultaneously calling good bad and bad good – quite a double whammy.
“Every time they oppose equality, make an anti-gay comment – they share the blame.” Precisely the attitude that needs to be condemned by all true Christians. I have read of many accounts of hooligans beating up alcoholic bums “for the fun of it.” Am I responsible for these hooligans because I condemn drinking to excess and support programs to help them change their ways? Hardly. I am not saying that the practice of blaming orthodox for anti-homosexual violence isn’t good political strategy for those wanting to advance their political cause, but the cause of the Gospel is hurt. No many… Read more »
We are not alone in ‘struggling’ with this whole issue, and considering this might lead to some respite through contextuality: with the usual caveat about Wikipedia, I thought I’d look at where Judaism itself is on the question of faith and LGBT people (given the constant referencing of Leviticus by conservatives to justify themselves, for example): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_homosexuality The range of views is remarkably similar, which may or may not come as a surprise. I take it as a sign of hope that those who are not able theologically to draw on such as Romans 7:6, are through reason and conscience… Read more »
Robroy doesn’t get it. He doesn’t actually want gay and lesbian people to have social equality. he thinks it is acceptable to discriminate against them and that is part of his ‘gospel’ Naturally, his approach helps to create a culture which is negative in its attitude towards gay and lesbian people In such a climate, they become expendable – they are not to be regarded as equal nor afforded legal recognition for their relationships This is a climate which encourages poor treatment and creates the sort of culture where homophobia in all its forms can be excused. When I start… Read more »
Christopher:
Perhaps the problem is the WAY that some “Christians” promote their anti-abortion views. Just like the problem is frequently the WAY they talk about gays.
“We feel that the religious leaders need to take a stand and make it clear that part of the creation of homophobia is the culture from which it stems. the Church needs to confess to its part in the creation of that culture. Every time they oppose equality, make an anti-gay comment – they share the blame.” The Christian Churches have been the main agents of the vicious persecution of gays for two millennia. No Christian Church has yet come anywhere near making an apology for this. John Paul II’s gestures of repentence and “purification of memory” in 2000 made… Read more »
“The Christian Churches have been the main agents of the vicious persecution of gays for two millennia.”
In fact, Christian strictures have been largely consistent with taboos on this kind of behavior found in most societies.
There have been exceptions, of course, most notably attitudes in the late Hellenistic culture in which Christianity was born. But even there our pagan forebears were clear-eyed enough to see that homoerotic relations had nothing to do with marriage.
Hi Pat- So let’s get this straight. The advocates of cheating on one’s spouse, witchcraft and pornography are so polite, gentlemanly and refined that one cannot but grant their request. Whereas the Christian Institute proposed ad on abortion news and views – which seems from christian.org to have unimpeachable and nondogmatic content – falls foul of the old and untenable excuse that style is *more* important than substance. (Of course style is important – but more important than substance? Intrinsically, as opposed to in the way people are – rather lazily – inclined to view things?)The medium is the message?… Read more »
robroy, you have been told repeatedly that it is NOT conservative statements of the belief that the Gospel prohibits homosexuality that is the problem, it the language used to make that claim, yet you persist in falsely claiming you are somehow persecuted or maligned when someone points out to you that calling for the jailing of people you insinuate are subhuman adds to the risk of violence to them! Then there is the conservative’s avid rejection of any kind of science that even hints that your belief that gay people are either sinful rebels or sick is simply wrong. The… Read more »
“…but I would hope there are those that value the Gospel more and would condemn the maligning of their Christian brothers and sisters.”
No robroy, we just hate the sin, not the sinner. The street goes both ways buddy.
What an interesting world conservatives live in, one in which words have no consequences. They must think the Holocaust sprang, fully formed, from nothing. Centuries of disparaging comments about jews had nothing to do with it at all, and those who helped propagate such comments are as pure as the driven snow.
If I end up having to spend an eternity around people like “robroy”, I’ll know I’m in hell.
Love the fundamentalist, hate the fundamentalism!
Christopher:
Yes, in a world of diverse opinions and cultures, style can trump substance…
Oh, and about this “witchcraft”? Do you mean people promoting the practice of the religion known as Wicca? Because if you do, they have as much right to practice and promote their beliefs as we Anglicans do. OTOH, if you truly have seen ads for witchcraft in the sense of casting spells and putting curses on people, there are laws against that, including the ones against frauds and terroristic threats.
“So, I suppose, every church that considers adultery wrong shares the blame whenever a jealous husband kills someone?” Posted by rick allen
Sigh.
Again w/ the FALSE analogies.
No, Rick, the proper analogy is that of the “coincidence” of POGROMS breaking out right after Good Friday “perfidious Jews” liturgies. [Which isn’t ancient history: I had a Jewish acqaintance who, as boy in the 1930s (in the US), experienced such a regular Good Friday “Christ-Killer!” pounding]
Lord have mercy!
Let’s see, we have, the statement that I am of the most vociferously evangelistic homophobe (Ron Smith), and that I have insinuated that homosexuals are subhuman (Ford Elms). Great examples of slurs and maligning of the orthodox that should be condemned by those who are Christians first and homosexual or heterosexual second (or 27th). Jesus showed that homosexuals and heterosexuals are of inestimable value by sacrificing Himself. The poor unfortunate victim most likely died in a state of sin and most likely surrounded by those who denied his need for repentance. A horrific tragedy. Ford states that I can espouse… Read more »
“Christian strictures have been largely consistent with taboos on this kind of behavior found in most societies.” I doubt if most societies consider gay sex a capital offence. “There have been exceptions, of course, most notably attitudes in the late Hellenistic culture in which Christianity was born. But even there our pagan forebears were clear-eyed enough to see that homoerotic relations had nothing to do with marriage.” Marriage is not a major theme in Greek philosophy, but the discussion of homoerotic love in the Symposium and Phaedrus would bear out the correctness of R Williams’ insight that such love has… Read more »
“… that should be condemned by those who are Christians first and homosexual or heterosexual second (or 27th).”
Well? Do we or don’t we?
robroy, leaders of the anti-gay movement within the Church insinuate that we are subhuman. You have consistently defended your right to do so. I am not surprised that you are not aware of having done this, because of this statement: “Ford states that I can espouse traditional views denouncing homosexuality as sinful without being responsible for anti-homosexuality violence. (How?)” It is alarming that you cannot conceive of saying: “I believe the Bible states that homosexuality is a sin” without going on to insinuate, for instance, that gay people and their supporters are faithless pagans who are out to destroy the… Read more »
I am closing this thread to further comments as it is apparent that it is degenerating into name calling.