The Church Times last week had a news report by Pat Ashworth: Global South Primates call for a ‘separate structure’ in USA.
The newspaper also had a leading article: Taking the road from Kigali:
…a determination to “stand against evil” is not a normal starting point for discussions about the better working of the Church Catholic. It helps to explain the Primates’ antagonistic stance towards the leadership of the Episcopal Church in the United States, though this is cloaked as a willingness to respond to those inside the US who have asked for outside assistance and oversight. But, however explicable, the decision to set up a parallel organisation in an existing province – unbidden – is a schismatic act; for what is a “separate ecclesiastical structure” but a Church?
The Kigali Primates speak of proceeding “in consultation with the instruments of unity in the Communion”. This is a perverse idea in the circumstances. None of those instruments – the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Primates’ Meeting, the Anglican Consultative Council, and the Lambeth Conference – could countenance such a move. It is possible that the Global South Primates believe the US Episcopal leadership to be so discredited that the rest of the Communion will allow a new organisation to take its place as the official Anglican body there. It is more likely that they are not particularly interested in seeking permission. The document The Road to Lambeth, endorsed by the Primates of the Global South, hopes that its road ahead “may pass through Lambeth, our historical mother. But above all it must be the road of the Cross.”…
Michael Poon at Global South Anglican had some comments about the most contentious of the documents from Kigali: Quo Vadis? – Questions along the Road from Lambeth – A response to CAPA’s Invitation:
The Road to Lambeth is an appeal for faithfulness to God. It also recommends the way by which we keep this faith. These are two related but distinct summons. It is important to bear this in mind as we read the Report. My purpose here is to heed the Global South Primates’ advice to reflect on this draft report.
I begin with an observation on the status of the Report. The Report states in its Preamble that it was commissioned by CAPA Primates in February 2006. CAPA Primates received it “with gratitude” on 19 September 2006. They did not say they approved it; rather they “commended [it] for study and response to the churches of the provinces in Africa”.
The Kigali Communiqué takes a more reserved view on the Report. In sharp contrast with the enthusiastic language used on the Anglican Covenant processes earlier in Section 7 of the Communiqué, the Global South Primates stated that they “receive” the Report. They noted that “it highlights the crisis that now confronts us” and “commend this report for wider reflection”. In other words, they recognized the depth of the crisis that called for faithfulness. However, they shied away from endorsing the particular solutions the Report offered.
What then is the status of the Road to Lambeth? A CAPA commission drafted it and presented it to their Primates in September. CAPA Primates now officially recommends it for wider study. They have not mentioned how they will follow it up. The Global South Primates takes note of it as a document from CAPA, and commends it for wider reflection within the Communion…
There is an irony that this is the first thread to be started after the “Responding to Domestic Abuse” thread. My concern with both dynamics is the question of obedience and submission. Some of the recent articles I have seen about it being okay to bless food, highways, and buildings; but not human beings points to the hypocrisy that could evolve. But it will be okay, because it is the church’s “high authority” that justifies what is holy and what is not. Next step, making decisions on who is suitable to be burnt at the stake? And if we don’t… Read more »
a nice bit of back pedalling…
My other contemplations since is does “two tiered” worthiness really solve the problems of sin and its consequence? And does it protect the interests of both parties? Going back to the male-female model. Did blaming Eve and making her subservient stop males and females from sinning? Did males in their “superior” position treat women with more respect? Did the churches care about the violation of women, or dismiss it as their lot because “they deserved it”. When we look at other apartheid systems, do the second class citizens get treated with more respect or do they get disciplined into submission… Read more »
Wrote Cheryl: “Some of the recent articles I have seen about it being okay to bless food, highways, and buildings; but not human beings points to the hypocrisy that could evolve.”
It wasn’t too long ago that the Church blessed bombs and weapons of mass destruction. Many years ago I even met the chaplain who blessed the first atomic bombs which, in 1945, hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The Church has a lot to answer for on Judgment Day, although many ‘happy warrior’ evangelicals are still in denial, fixated, as they are today, on ‘unworthy’ gays and lesbians.
One of the interesting things that all this demonstrates is that there isn’t really a monolithic Global South block & what agreement does exist is held together by more than homophobia (although, goodness knows, that plays a role) — there is certainly some post-colonialism (& “payback” for “whitey”) & the trauma of moving so quickly from pre-modern to modern to post-modern cultural outlooks (at least according to some contemporary thinkers) & (quit frankly) a genuine incomprehension on the part of many areas missionized by the Church Missionary Society about how diverse the Anglican Communion truly has been. But regardless of… Read more »
Beautiful posting Prior. I sometimes wonder if there isn’t “reverse” racism. I remember some months ago the liberals being challenged as armchair theologians and that we should come to Nigeria and do it “tough” like they have to. Personally, I found it laughable because it assumed that if you had enough food in your tummy that you were healthy and not being abused. As the earth reveals her slain, we find that abuse and trauma is not restricted to only those living at the brink of starvation. Desecration of women does not change with the amount of affluence, merely the… Read more »
The Church in Africa has come of age and needs to be self-reliant. African Churches must “not be unwilling to ‘listen’ and learn to understand better the phenomenon of homosexual attraction”, which they acknowledge to be in their own culture. But they reiterate that they are not prepared to “suspend the unchangeable standard of God as part of this conversation”. This is definately a step in the right direction–surely ? Or is it just church-double speak, like Richard Chartres’ letter ? And ‘Issues’ from whose authorisation of same-sex relationships for lay people, the bishops are now apparently backtracking . No… Read more »
I am sorry to say that there is more wishful thinking going on here. 1) It is not Africa v the rest or even the global south v the rest…..why would the ABC be ditching the liberals at every step if it were so simple; 2)You going to come up with some spurious reason (like “reverse racism” used against the African theologians) to explain the stance of Jensen, Venables, Wright, Scott-Joynt Duncan, Iker, Schofield et many others?? (clue: the thing all your opponents have in common is not their colour but their bibles) 3) Because “conservatives” have left or have… Read more »
Meanwhile, according the the Anglican Communion News Service, posting on 3 October, the Church of Ceylon, Sri Lanka’s Anglican Church, has ordained its first women priests. I am amazed at how, in the midst of decades of controversy, yet another part of the Anglican Communion has quietly embraced the Holy Spirit’s calling to women to serve as priests. My ministries professor in seminary once told me that entering the institution of the church, through ordination, would mean having to live with waiting. It would mean a commitment to patience, for the church moves “exceeding slow”. I am impatient with the… Read more »
Lois – are you sure it is the Holy Spirit leading or just that you want to see changes /innovations with which you agree?
There is no real support for the idea that Holy Spirit is going to lead people into contradicting the scriptures he inspired in the first place.
TEC’s line that doing what TEC wants to do is following the Holy Spirit convinces nobody – that is, nobody outside the tiny band of liberals in the Anglican Communion
“There is no real support for the idea that Holy Spirit is going to lead people into contradicting the scriptures he inspired in the first place.”
Hmmm. So the Jewish dietary laws that Christians no longer follow must not have been inspired by the HS?
Hmmm. All in the Bible that was used to justify slavery, similarly not really of the HS?
Hmmmm. Same for the biblical ‘justification’ for banning cross racial marriage?
Or is it that the HS is still at work, in a still small voice, sometimes a feminine one?
Cynthia – thanks for your response but these do not disprove what I say because ……dietary laws are changed in the Bible itself, because the Bible is revolutionary in liberating slaves like Onesimus etc etc
Just because some people have abused the Bible to do harm to others does not justify ignoring the Bible now…..
we have to make sure we are not just like the people who used to Bible to justify doing what they wanted to do anyway.
NP Thank you for continuing to post, your honesty in expressing your reasons is appreciated. There is an implication in your comments that the bible and holy spirit somehow belong to one group and not the others. When I read the bible, particularly the OT, God despises those who claim God’s approval but ignore injustice – not just to God’s chosen ones but also to the outcasts and aliens. It is particularly annoying because it slurs God’s name as being indifferent or approving of injustice. There is a grouping that is very secure in their flattering affirmation of each others’… Read more »
NP’s comments on a “tiny/shrinking band of liberals in the Anglican Communion” is telling. Most persons, when they come to a “liberal” or “liberating” perspective (compared to the so-called “traditional” pespectives on the Bible—probably meaning, simply the LOUDEST expressed!), decide to leave Christianity altogether.(*) [Or at least the AC: behold, MerseyMike! :-)] Do those who have left, because they could not countenance a gay-bashing religion, not COUNT at all? When we look at a country like the UK, is it only to be seen in terms of “gay-affirming practicing Anglicans” vs. “gay-repudiating practicing Anglicans”? NP, not only do I believe… Read more »
A very good response, JC Fisher (5.10.06; 6:50 pm). I especially liked the statement: “Not only do I believe that the Holy Spirit has been at work in TEC—I believe She has been at work in the secular world, too!” We all need to witness to the power of the Holy Spirit, raising our level of consciousness and awareness of the many wrongs we have committed against people, while using Holy Scripture as a blazing sword to punish and discriminate against many faithful Christian people. The RC bishops of Austria in 1999/2000 publicly apologized for abusing gays in the past,… Read more »
Hey NP– When do you celebrate the Sabbath, as you are clearly commanded to do in the moral law of the OT? Saturday or Sunday? You show me where the Bible says in black and white the Sabbath commandment is no longer binding on Christians, who may instead simply celebrate Sundays instead of Sundays and Sabbaths or merely Sabbaths. Hmm–can’t find it? Oh–wait–you mean to say when it comes to that commandment, which certainly has a plain sense if any commandment does, disobedience is a live option? Somehow the clear call to obedience and Bible based belief can be trumped… Read more »
I do hope that NP steers clear of black pudding and the like, given that the Acts injunction against same is never rescinded in Scripture:-)
This is a lovely commentary about hypocrisy http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2006/10/tony-campolo-duplicity-on-right.html I liked the concluding paragraph: “…the Religious Right can’t have it both ways. They can’t say that righteousness must never be compromised, and then add “except in certain situations — like torturing our enemies in times of war.”” Again recall God’s words to Jeremiah @ 5:1 “If you can find but one person who deals honestly and seeks the truth, I will forgive this city.” It is not a call to find perfection or the soul without sin (that is the ongoing debate with the Accusser who is frequently rebuked for failing… Read more »
Hello Cheryl
No, there is no implication from me that the Holy Spirit belongs to one group.
My point is that the Holy Spirit does not contradict himself – that is clear from everything Jesus says about him and his work, in John for example.
So, the idea that TEC is being led by the Holy Spirit in dumping what he has taught on certain issues does not work.
Thanks for this JC (F) and CC
Richard Chartres’ letter is shockingly hypocritical. This is why most parishoners (citizebs) have given up on ever finding in the C ofE a credible moral and spiritual message or home.
He is trying to back-track from Issues and the authorization it gave to lay same-sex couples. Some people have been basing their lives on this for decades now. You can’t suddenly back track without loss of all credibility and integrity.
Most importantly, you can not treat people like that. This is real ‘domestic abuse.’
NP, I’ve pointed out some of the ways the Church has compromised the Gospel in the last 1700 years, and you seem unable to perceive these things. The fact that many of the people who have left the Church, at least in my experience, have left because of these very compromises that make everything else we say hypocritical in their eyes, and that this hypocrisy is a block to the spread of the Gospel seems lost on you. That conservative Evangelical Churches are growing means little. Fear is a good motivator, as is the smug reassurance that God affirms middle… Read more »
Oh Todd, have you become the Anglican SDA-ist? Well, be my guest, it will do you no harm. But you need to be subtler doctor than that! The NT already shows a fresh consideration of food laws and Sabbath observation in the light of Christ’s coming (see Mark 7:19; Matt. 12:8; Colossians 2:16). And, assuming your question is a sincere one, have a look at ‘From Sabbath to Lord’s Day’ by Wilfrid Stott.
(And I LOVE pork and shellfish!)
Todd, my mistake: I meant the book ‘From Sabbath to Lord’s Day’ (1982), edited by D. A. Carson and including exegetical and historical essays by Dick France, Andrew Lincoln and Richard Bauckham. Here’s a summary:
http://www.beginningwithmoses.org/library/revsabbathlordsday.htm
It interacts and differs with ‘This is the Day’, by Wilfrid Stott and Roger Beckwith.
Interestingly, Bauchkam claims that sabbatarianism was a medieval development, not from the patristic or NT church.
I won’t bother answering points re the Sabbath and black pudding as they are of no consequence and the answers should be well known Ford -thanks for your reply. I can agree with you that there have been lots of abuses of the gospel and lots of harm done to many groups / nations. As to your question, the gospel is not liberal or conservative – it is factual. What I care about is that the facts of the gospel (including appropriate lifetyle response) are not distorted so people are not misled into false security or hope. Authoritative interpretation is… Read more »
The Holy Spirit does encourage dialogue and debate, the wellspring of the prophets inevitably leads to debate and transformation. Mother Theresa reverred and touted as a model for decades stood up to the heirarchy of her church to chart the course that became her destiny. Do you really wish to ascribe a gender to the Holy Spirit? The inference of a gender brings with it the inference of an identity, a personality, a consciousness. That inference then raises questions of consent. Is the Holy Spirit merely some divine energy source that Jesus allows others to draw on at will? Or… Read more »
Cheryl, I’m not sure about your consent argument. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Spirit is God. The Spirit is not just something Jesus sends, She is the third Person of the Trinity, and, as God, wills what the Son wills, or the Father. If God wills, there can be no question of God consenting, and if God does not consent, there can be no forcing. And, NP, I’m not sure about Aramaic, but I believe Spirit is feminine in Greek. I don’t read Greek, but this would require that the Spirit be called “She” in Greek,… Read more »
but Jesus called him “he” so I will follow Jesus and accept his authority.
to pneuma. Not much choice other than ‘it’ Pity we don’t have a bit more Aramaic around, tho’ I could look at the Peshitta if you really wanted to find out whether Jesus obeys the rules of grammar in the Syriac as well.
I do think that’s a pretty poor argument…. And actually offensive, implying that those who do not agree with you on a point of grammar are unfaithful. Or perhaps you think the Bible appeared as an NIV direct from heaven 😉
Thanks NP. However, you will find that simple Biblically based reason and common-sense don’t carry much weight around here. So, keep up the good work, but don’t expect to make any headway.
Steven
Cheryl-
We need to distinguish between apartheid and accurate differentiation.
There is no group or body in the world for which everyone is eligible for membership without fulfilling any obligation. The Church, however, already comes about the closest to this ‘ideal’ (if such it is), by debarring only one category of ppl: the unrepentant.
A group or body which automatically includes everybody has no identity.
“3) Because “conservatives” have left or have not joined ECUSA in the last few decades, it is a largely liberal organisation but not representative of Western or even American Christianity….it is just 0.7 million liberals (and shrinking) who happen to be in the US;” And yet, here in the famously religious USA, the fastest growing denominational choice, especially among the young, is “none”. The growing (and hardening) evangelical denominations are creating a growing reaction (and revulsion) to religion entirely. I’ve always said that the fastest and most effective way to kill off the vibrant religious life of the USA would… Read more »
Gee NP,
So triumphant your easy understanding of the gospel. So easy your “lifestyle” label on those born that way. So much the “big lie” your use of statistics (liberals in the church are a shrinking population). So many assumptions and so little real faith and love. Shame.
I am by no stretch a scholar or theologian. I am not well versed in the policies of the church. I am simply and American and an Episcopalian and I wish to express the opinion of many of my brothers and sister in ECUSA to send a message to the Global South Primates….Who asked for your input into our problems or gave you the right to call for anything that effects us? With aids, genocide, lack of basic services and political unrest running rampant in your own countries, I would think that you have enough to be concerned about without… Read more »
Ford Your comments that Spirit has an identity (and is possibly feminine) were encouraging. The comments about Jesus referring to Spirit as a He could also refer to the nomenclature of the time. There is also an assumption that the angels fully briefed Jesus on the full nature of the Trinity, or that God kept some things hidden (the latter is my guess) e.g. Isaiah 44:6-9, 45:20-25, 46:8-16, 48:1-11, Jeremiah 31:15-25, which includes: “The LORD will create a new thing on earth — a woman will surround a man” The issue is that some people think they have the right… Read more »
Gee, Byron – so judgemental! (to use your style) I note you have no evidence to prove your assertion that “liberal” churches in the US and all over the enlightened “West” are not shrinking. You can say it is a lie to point out the decliine but the numbers are not on your side. Other “liberals” on this site are honest about the decline of “liberalism” in Christianity even if they see others reasons for it. Some people seem determined to make the Holy Spirit female or nothing …. all you brilliant grammarians better get in touch with the NIV,… Read more »
NP There are some who deny that Spirit could be female, and deny that God contains any feminine traits. I don’t think that is what your posting was meant to infer? And at the risk of being cheeky, I was daydreaming on the weekend that the existence of homosexuality and GLBTs might be coming out of souls refusal to acknowledge that God contains the feminine. If we were to take the Jewish model of reconciliation back to the original Adam and Eve… Jesus would stand in for Adam, and Jesus’ little helper (Holy Spirit) should be Eve. But some souls… Read more »
all you brilliant grammarians better get in touch with the NIV, Though it’s off-topic, I can’t see a lot of ppoint in arguing with NIV &NKJV translators who so manifestly espouse completely unjustifiable translations on doctrinal grounds (eg Isa 7:14)! As for the rest, well Acts 11:15 uses ‘it’ not ‘he’ which is grammatically correct, of course. But being not over well versed in Scripture, I would appreciate some ‘chapter and verse’ references from NRSV where the HS is explicitly male — serious enquiry, btw, since I’d be interested in chasing same. I would, though, remind NP of some metaphorical… Read more »
“Thanks NP. However, you will find that simple Biblically based reason and common-sense don’t carry much weight around here. So, keep up the good work, but don’t expect to make any headway. Steven” Nice little snipe there, Steven, but inaccurate. You can’t read the Bible literally in English, since it wasn’t written in English. Jesus is not reported as referring to the Spirit as “He” since the original report was written in Greek, and the word is not masculine in that language. Our English translations are actually translations into English of reports made in another language of things that were… Read more »
What happened to the concept of revelation, of God unlocking the scrolls, of God annointing souls to do prophetic works? When did God die?
Well, Cheryl, I think it happened when the Creator of all that is became a middle class heterosexual white male, thereby divesting Himself of His transcendant nature. Note that this was not the Incarnation, when God the Second Person of the Trinity became human to rescue us from the bondage our willfulness had gotten us into. He remained Transcendant then. No, it was sometime later than that. Perhaps He’s only dead for those who see their own image in Him.
Hello Cheryl No – I do not deny that God has feminine characteristics as he himself says he would like to gather his people as a hen with chicks….I just want to stick to the Biblical authority for points. I am grateful for your question because it is alarming to see “liberals” on this site gang up on people with whom they disagree, making all sorts of assumptions and showing a lot of prejudice. Glad you are not like that because I am not the stereotype of a “homophobic misogynist” that some seem to think. We had the sermon on… Read more »
NP, What about Bibles in languages where they use the feminine pronoun to refer to the spirit, because the word for Spirit in that language has feminine gender? Are they misleading people? This is my point, the masculine gender in English is just as misleading as the feminine gender in other languages because God transcends gender. This is not a new concept. The idea of the otherness of God and our inability to comprehend Him with our finite human faculties was a theme in the controversies of the early Church. NP, people who disagree with you aren’t ganging up on… Read more »
Ford – part of the Anglican mess is people spending endless years in committees splitting hairs and ignoring elephants in the room. Don Carson’s excellent commentary on John did not lead me to believe that Jesus meant to say “she” in John 14 – that professor knows his Greek and Hebrew too! Talking of “conservatives” and “liberals” is useful shorthand and, I think, well understood. I would call you a “liberal” – that is “liberal” in your attitude to scripture – if your views indicate such a stance. I have no problem being called “conservative” and I do not understand… Read more »
Conservative shouldn’t mean homophobe, any more than Liberal means faithless. Otherwise good Christians seem either to read Scripture to find passages that support their own particular beliefs or try to explain away those passages that do not. Both sides are guilty of this. As to my being liberal when it comes to Scripture, I’m kind of taken aback by that. My attitude towards Scripture is that, of all the books purporting to be Divinely inspired, the Spirit led the Church to discern which ones actually were, and those we call the New Testament. It is therefor the Church, guided by… Read more »
What a lovely daydream, Cheryl. I think we need more dreaming here–and more humour. Also, I find myself wondering what are people’s hobbies and pastimes, here ? I wish we could see each other more in the round. Often where theology would divide, interests or things in common or character triats would bring folks together. E.g. At my church 2 retired and recently widowed men sit together. And one gives the other a lift in his car. One is an atheist (and has been a member of this congregation for 50 years!) and the other runs the prayer fellowship, and… Read more »
laurence – I am sure we would get on very well!!
we don’t have to agree or be part of the same church in order to that….I think the tensions are caused by those trying to force us all to stay in the same club and pretend we all agree.
once we are free to disagree and get on with life, things will be much simpler and more normal.
Laurence One of the things that frightens some souls is when they find out that someone they have gotten along with for years is gay. It is also very hard to deny the humanity of that person at that point (unless of course they have tried to molest you). But that applies to heterosexual and other relationship conventions doesn’t it? I don’t think that it is appropriate that we share too much private stuff on this forum. I know my personal information has been used against me, and I chose to do that so the only person who was hurt… Read more »
Thanks Cheryl,for your thoughtfulness
“I think the tensions are caused by those trying to force us all to stay in the same club and pretend we all agree.”
Not surprisingly, NP, I disagree. I think the tensions are caused because we think it is more important that we be right than that we bear one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. Our need to be right is more important than the requirement that we love one another. Frankly, we have all forgotten the Gospel while pretending to stand up for it.
Ford – “conservatives” are not worried about being right as much as they are very concerned that certain teaching is wrong and misleading people with very serious consequences…..that is, unless one wants to rewrite or excise inconvenient verses in the Bible.
Thanks for proving my point. “Conservatives” aren’t worried about being right, just about proving others to be wrong. Don’t you know that there are people for whom Evangelicalism is wrong and misleading people with serious consequences? Each side feels this way about the other. Each side has rewritten or excised inconvenient verses in the Bible. The fact is that “conservatives” are “reasserting” the old Imperial model of the Church that compromised with the world so long ago we have forgotten that it even happened. I’m not saying that makes it right, merely that all sides need to have the humility… Read more »