The fact that Roman Catholic and Anglican bishops have been among the most vocal supporters of this un-Christian persecution betokens not only ignorance about homosexuality — which could be inculpable ignorance — but ignorance of the basic premisses of the Gospel. These self-proclaimed upholders of biblical and Christian tradition seem not to know the very basics of the Gospel. Let us remember how Rwanda, the “pearl of the missions”, was the scene of appalling genocide in the 1990s, and how the espousal of racial prejudice by Belgian missionaries was one of the roots of that. Today Catholic and Anglican prelates… Read more »
In my opinion, Archbishop Williams should publicly condemn ‘Archbishop’ Akinola for supporting this legislation. ++Rowan should threaten to disinvite Akinola from Lambeth. That, and he should publicly call on the Nigerian government not to pass this legislation. It would not be enough, but it would be the right thing to do. Is ++Rowan brave enough to do so? Akinola has demonstrated that either he is wilfully ignorant about LGBT people getting jailed, or that he actively WANTS them to be jailed … either would arguable violate the demands of the last Lambeth conference. Some will argue that the Episcopal Church… Read more »
It is good to see the attitude of the Nigerian Govenment and church towards homosexuality, and the proposed Nigerian bill which extends sanctions against homosexuality, receive increasing coverage in the world press. (Remember, the bill hasn’t yet been passed onto the statute book). This world-wide focus is one of the ways in which pressure for change can be built against the prejudice and ignorance in Nigeria fuelling the attitudes behind the bill. I met Oludare Odumuye at the International Lesbian and Gay Association conference in Geneva in March 2006, where I also met Davis MacIyalla for the first time. Bisi… Read more »
Matthew Hunt
18 years ago
The Church is supposed to be the body of Christ on Earth. Christ offered his body to be broken for the sake of ALL humanity. We are called to follow Christ. The unity of the Church is NOT the purpose of the Church. Canterbury is mistaken in its obsession with unity and cowing to internecine Anglican politics. If the Anglican Communion cannot be held together in unequivocal unity against such human-hating and human-destroying legislation then clearly that Communion – that part of Christ’s body on Earth -needs to be broken for the sake of the humanity that will suffer from… Read more »
Merseymike
18 years ago
The words ‘bravery’ and ‘Rowan Williams’ can never be used in juxtaposition. The man is a spineless coward who can’t even support his own friends, let alone those suffering in other countries. He is a spineless, vascillating waste of space. At least with George Carey you knew where you stood.
Davis Mac-Iyalla
18 years ago
If God is truly speaking to our Nigerian church leaders as they claim, he must by now be telling them to have a rethink about their actions. The truth is that these holier than thou people are just adamant to break the Anglican Communion apart. They are not making much progress in intimidating and splitting the Episcopal Church in the USA so they have turned their attention to the CofE. Where in the Bible did Christ or any apostle ask us to lie in the name of working for Christ? ++Akinola recently went to the UK to seek support from… Read more »
Matthew Hunt, I think you miss the point of unity.
If Akinola has some belief that “God loves everyone”, he’s not doing a good job of showing it, that’s for sure; however, it would be disingeneous for us to say that God loves LGBT folks but not Akinola!
Breaking the communion for hating one person’s hatred isn’t really a good idea.
mynsterpreost (=David Rowett)
18 years ago
MM said:
At least with George Carey you knew where you stood.
“Scorched Earth” policy is being rolled out. It’s not confined to the Anglican communion, the US Democrats are walking into a minefield of debt and fiscal bankruptcy. Their attitude reek or “If we can’t have power, then we’ll make sure you have no resources. Then when you fail we can say it was because you were incompetent or incorrect. When really the truth was we plundered the family treasures for our own power mongering, stealing from our siblings and future generations for our short term greet and ego satisfaction.” May history remember these people for their greed and deceit. May… Read more »
Tim, You said, “Matthew Hunt, I think you miss the point of unity. If Akinola has some belief that “God loves everyone”, he’s not doing a good job of showing it, that’s for sure; however, it would be disingeneous for us to say that God loves LGBT folks but not Akinola! Breaking the communion for hating one person’s hatred isn’t really a good idea.” I’m actually the one who first suggested (in this thread) breaking the communion over hating one person’s hatred. Your point is a good one. Breaking communion is never a good thing. However, I was pointing out… Read more »
Wade
18 years ago
Anyone who truly cares about basic human rights like freedom of speech, expression, religion, association, etc. should be vocally opposing this law. Anyone who truly cares about basic human decency should too. The Network here in America has made a deal with the Devil by allying with ++Akinola. Minns should be ashamed of himself for lying about ++Akinola’s position concerning gay people. And as others have noted, ++Rowan Williams’ silence is sin – plain and simple. “In the end, it will not be the words of our enemies that we will remember, but the silence of our friends.” — Martin… Read more »
Weiwen, I don’t disagree except to point out that I would never want to be the one breaking communion or not-inviting someone. Leave it up to others to decide as&when they’re weak enough to call it quits. The thing to do is to set the example that Akinola *isn’t* – to call him to account by all means, try and apply corrective measures before risking disowning. And then still postpone disowning as long as possible. And this is actually biblical, as distinct from spreading hatred and the filth of separatism all around the communion. “But unity at what price?” “I… Read more »
Craig Nelson
18 years ago
Very sad that neither the Archbishop of Canterbury nor various conservative luminaries have the ability to say outright that the proposed law in Nigeria is wrong. This must mean that either in principle they believe it is right (5 years in prison for being a member of a gay association or for positive portrayal of homosexuality) or that they believe it is wrong but for political reasons are happy to connive at the Nigerian law. Either way I think we have a right to ask the question of any conservative “Were you for or against this repressive law? If against,… Read more »
AlaninLondon
18 years ago
The silence of the Church of England’s bishops on this is truly shameful. I suspect Rowan Williams et al will say, ‘Oh, you must realise the difficult situation the Christian Church is in Nigeria. They are competing with Islam and can’t compromise on this….’ Yet the greater blasphemy for Islam is the doctrine of the Incarnation. Yet we don’t see Anglicans accomodating to Islam here and becoming Unitarians!
AlaninLondon: “Yet the greater blasphemy for Islam is the doctrine of the Incarnation. Yet we don’t see Anglicans accomodating to Islam here and becoming Unitarians!” I hadn’t thought of it that way before. Thanks. There has been, since this imbroglio began, a kind of cowardice in the public statements by the CofN regarding Islam (and I don’t use that word lightly). First, the CofN demands protection for their missionaries working in northern Nigeria, Niger, and Chad among Africa’s Muslims. Then, they capitulate to Islam (or claim to) in the face of the looming “threat” of Shari’ya. In my view, this… Read more »
It reminds me of similar one about the development of Nazi Germany. First they came for the homosexuals, and I was not one, then the Jews but I was not one, then… then they came for me and there was no one to protect me because they had already gone before me.
I must say that I concur with the thrust of all that is being said here — this propsed law is an abomination & there is something very wrong if the leaders of the church cannot say so — good grief, the Bush State Department, hardly the most gay friendly organization in an administration which has not been terribly open-minded about freedom of assembly for opposing views has condemned this proposed legislation!
Let’s see. How shall we get started? First of all, which of us has actually been to Nigeria, have lived there, and can explain to the rest of us why it is in danger of becoming another Iran? Anyone? Next, what do we think it’s like for Christians in Northern Nigeria – all of them, even the Anglicans? Ideas anyone? Feel free to share. Next, let’s talk about the last time we talked with Peter Akinola. What did we learn? We do remember the last time we sat down and talked with him? Right? Next, how shall we keep the… Read more »
Merseymike
18 years ago
Akinola, Islamic militants – spot the difference.
Both as bad as each other. Both following repressive and exclusive religions.
Supporting Akinola as a means of opposing militant Islam – whats the point? Let them fight their fundamentalist war of two evils.
Baby Blue’s points: 1. “why it is in danger of becoming another Iran? Anyone?” It isn’t. This is American political propaganda. Only northern Nigeria is Muslim, maybe 1/3 of the population. Most Nigerians live in the South, no Sharia there. 2. “what do we think it’s like for Christians in Northern Nigeria – all of them, even the Anglicans? Ideas anyone? Feel free to share.” Mmmm, let me guess; kind’a what it’s like for lesbian and gay Nigerians? 3. “Next, let’s talk about the last time we talked with Peter Akinola. What did we learn? We do remember the last… Read more »
NP
18 years ago
Goran wrote “Lord Druid of Wobbley”
– a tad unkind….but made me laugh out loud, I must admit
For what it is worth, I think the Nigerian laws are wrong and also would like to see bishops speak up against persecution.
Please note the English evos “covenant” statement this week is not looking to Nigeria for oversight but for an English solution.
laurence
18 years ago
AlaninLondon:
“Yet the greater blasphemy for Islam is the doctrine of the Incarnation. Yet we don’t see Anglicans accomodating to Islam here and becoming Unitarians!”
Speak for yourself ! : – )
laurence
18 years ago
Lord Druid of Wobbley”
– a tad unkind….but made me laugh out loud, I must admit’ NP
Now I’m smiling too ! Theres’s something infectiously sane and human about laughter and smiling, isn’t there. Could this be a way forward ? Perhaps we need to be sharing jokes rather than Covenants ?
I’m not sure why we’re responding to BabyBlue’s flame. I’m glad she has given voice to her opinion, but I’m not entirely pleased with the hyperbole and false witness that has come with it. If she can’t accurately depict the objections to the legislation, then what’s the point of responding? For instance, she writes, “Next, let’s talk about the last time we talked with Peter Akinola. What did we learn? We do remember the last time we sat down and talked with him? Right?” I, for one, would be thrilled were Archbishop Akinola to “sit down” with me and explain… Read more »
The fact that Roman Catholic and Anglican bishops have been among the most vocal supporters of this un-Christian persecution betokens not only ignorance about homosexuality — which could be inculpable ignorance — but ignorance of the basic premisses of the Gospel. These self-proclaimed upholders of biblical and Christian tradition seem not to know the very basics of the Gospel. Let us remember how Rwanda, the “pearl of the missions”, was the scene of appalling genocide in the 1990s, and how the espousal of racial prejudice by Belgian missionaries was one of the roots of that. Today Catholic and Anglican prelates… Read more »
In my opinion, Archbishop Williams should publicly condemn ‘Archbishop’ Akinola for supporting this legislation. ++Rowan should threaten to disinvite Akinola from Lambeth. That, and he should publicly call on the Nigerian government not to pass this legislation. It would not be enough, but it would be the right thing to do. Is ++Rowan brave enough to do so? Akinola has demonstrated that either he is wilfully ignorant about LGBT people getting jailed, or that he actively WANTS them to be jailed … either would arguable violate the demands of the last Lambeth conference. Some will argue that the Episcopal Church… Read more »
It is good to see the attitude of the Nigerian Govenment and church towards homosexuality, and the proposed Nigerian bill which extends sanctions against homosexuality, receive increasing coverage in the world press. (Remember, the bill hasn’t yet been passed onto the statute book). This world-wide focus is one of the ways in which pressure for change can be built against the prejudice and ignorance in Nigeria fuelling the attitudes behind the bill. I met Oludare Odumuye at the International Lesbian and Gay Association conference in Geneva in March 2006, where I also met Davis MacIyalla for the first time. Bisi… Read more »
The Church is supposed to be the body of Christ on Earth. Christ offered his body to be broken for the sake of ALL humanity. We are called to follow Christ. The unity of the Church is NOT the purpose of the Church. Canterbury is mistaken in its obsession with unity and cowing to internecine Anglican politics. If the Anglican Communion cannot be held together in unequivocal unity against such human-hating and human-destroying legislation then clearly that Communion – that part of Christ’s body on Earth -needs to be broken for the sake of the humanity that will suffer from… Read more »
The words ‘bravery’ and ‘Rowan Williams’ can never be used in juxtaposition. The man is a spineless coward who can’t even support his own friends, let alone those suffering in other countries. He is a spineless, vascillating waste of space. At least with George Carey you knew where you stood.
If God is truly speaking to our Nigerian church leaders as they claim, he must by now be telling them to have a rethink about their actions. The truth is that these holier than thou people are just adamant to break the Anglican Communion apart. They are not making much progress in intimidating and splitting the Episcopal Church in the USA so they have turned their attention to the CofE. Where in the Bible did Christ or any apostle ask us to lie in the name of working for Christ? ++Akinola recently went to the UK to seek support from… Read more »
Matthew Hunt, I think you miss the point of unity.
If Akinola has some belief that “God loves everyone”, he’s not doing a good job of showing it, that’s for sure; however, it would be disingeneous for us to say that God loves LGBT folks but not Akinola!
Breaking the communion for hating one person’s hatred isn’t really a good idea.
MM said:
At least with George Carey you knew where you stood.
You just didn’t like where you were standing….
“Scorched Earth” policy is being rolled out. It’s not confined to the Anglican communion, the US Democrats are walking into a minefield of debt and fiscal bankruptcy. Their attitude reek or “If we can’t have power, then we’ll make sure you have no resources. Then when you fail we can say it was because you were incompetent or incorrect. When really the truth was we plundered the family treasures for our own power mongering, stealing from our siblings and future generations for our short term greet and ego satisfaction.” May history remember these people for their greed and deceit. May… Read more »
Tim, You said, “Matthew Hunt, I think you miss the point of unity. If Akinola has some belief that “God loves everyone”, he’s not doing a good job of showing it, that’s for sure; however, it would be disingeneous for us to say that God loves LGBT folks but not Akinola! Breaking the communion for hating one person’s hatred isn’t really a good idea.” I’m actually the one who first suggested (in this thread) breaking the communion over hating one person’s hatred. Your point is a good one. Breaking communion is never a good thing. However, I was pointing out… Read more »
Anyone who truly cares about basic human rights like freedom of speech, expression, religion, association, etc. should be vocally opposing this law. Anyone who truly cares about basic human decency should too. The Network here in America has made a deal with the Devil by allying with ++Akinola. Minns should be ashamed of himself for lying about ++Akinola’s position concerning gay people. And as others have noted, ++Rowan Williams’ silence is sin – plain and simple. “In the end, it will not be the words of our enemies that we will remember, but the silence of our friends.” — Martin… Read more »
Weiwen, I don’t disagree except to point out that I would never want to be the one breaking communion or not-inviting someone. Leave it up to others to decide as&when they’re weak enough to call it quits. The thing to do is to set the example that Akinola *isn’t* – to call him to account by all means, try and apply corrective measures before risking disowning. And then still postpone disowning as long as possible. And this is actually biblical, as distinct from spreading hatred and the filth of separatism all around the communion. “But unity at what price?” “I… Read more »
Very sad that neither the Archbishop of Canterbury nor various conservative luminaries have the ability to say outright that the proposed law in Nigeria is wrong. This must mean that either in principle they believe it is right (5 years in prison for being a member of a gay association or for positive portrayal of homosexuality) or that they believe it is wrong but for political reasons are happy to connive at the Nigerian law. Either way I think we have a right to ask the question of any conservative “Were you for or against this repressive law? If against,… Read more »
The silence of the Church of England’s bishops on this is truly shameful. I suspect Rowan Williams et al will say, ‘Oh, you must realise the difficult situation the Christian Church is in Nigeria. They are competing with Islam and can’t compromise on this….’ Yet the greater blasphemy for Islam is the doctrine of the Incarnation. Yet we don’t see Anglicans accomodating to Islam here and becoming Unitarians!
AlaninLondon: “Yet the greater blasphemy for Islam is the doctrine of the Incarnation. Yet we don’t see Anglicans accomodating to Islam here and becoming Unitarians!” I hadn’t thought of it that way before. Thanks. There has been, since this imbroglio began, a kind of cowardice in the public statements by the CofN regarding Islam (and I don’t use that word lightly). First, the CofN demands protection for their missionaries working in northern Nigeria, Niger, and Chad among Africa’s Muslims. Then, they capitulate to Islam (or claim to) in the face of the looming “threat” of Shari’ya. In my view, this… Read more »
Matt
Ditto on thanks to AlaninLondon.
Wade, I loved the Martin Luther King quote.
It reminds me of similar one about the development of Nazi Germany. First they came for the homosexuals, and I was not one, then the Jews but I was not one, then… then they came for me and there was no one to protect me because they had already gone before me.
I must say that I concur with the thrust of all that is being said here — this propsed law is an abomination & there is something very wrong if the leaders of the church cannot say so — good grief, the Bush State Department, hardly the most gay friendly organization in an administration which has not been terribly open-minded about freedom of assembly for opposing views has condemned this proposed legislation!
Let’s see. How shall we get started? First of all, which of us has actually been to Nigeria, have lived there, and can explain to the rest of us why it is in danger of becoming another Iran? Anyone? Next, what do we think it’s like for Christians in Northern Nigeria – all of them, even the Anglicans? Ideas anyone? Feel free to share. Next, let’s talk about the last time we talked with Peter Akinola. What did we learn? We do remember the last time we sat down and talked with him? Right? Next, how shall we keep the… Read more »
Akinola, Islamic militants – spot the difference.
Both as bad as each other. Both following repressive and exclusive religions.
Supporting Akinola as a means of opposing militant Islam – whats the point? Let them fight their fundamentalist war of two evils.
Baby Blue’s points: 1. “why it is in danger of becoming another Iran? Anyone?” It isn’t. This is American political propaganda. Only northern Nigeria is Muslim, maybe 1/3 of the population. Most Nigerians live in the South, no Sharia there. 2. “what do we think it’s like for Christians in Northern Nigeria – all of them, even the Anglicans? Ideas anyone? Feel free to share.” Mmmm, let me guess; kind’a what it’s like for lesbian and gay Nigerians? 3. “Next, let’s talk about the last time we talked with Peter Akinola. What did we learn? We do remember the last… Read more »
Goran wrote “Lord Druid of Wobbley”
– a tad unkind….but made me laugh out loud, I must admit
For what it is worth, I think the Nigerian laws are wrong and also would like to see bishops speak up against persecution.
Please note the English evos “covenant” statement this week is not looking to Nigeria for oversight but for an English solution.
AlaninLondon:
“Yet the greater blasphemy for Islam is the doctrine of the Incarnation. Yet we don’t see Anglicans accomodating to Islam here and becoming Unitarians!”
Speak for yourself ! : – )
Lord Druid of Wobbley”
– a tad unkind….but made me laugh out loud, I must admit’ NP
Now I’m smiling too ! Theres’s something infectiously sane and human about laughter and smiling, isn’t there. Could this be a way forward ? Perhaps we need to be sharing jokes rather than Covenants ?
I’m not sure why we’re responding to BabyBlue’s flame. I’m glad she has given voice to her opinion, but I’m not entirely pleased with the hyperbole and false witness that has come with it. If she can’t accurately depict the objections to the legislation, then what’s the point of responding? For instance, she writes, “Next, let’s talk about the last time we talked with Peter Akinola. What did we learn? We do remember the last time we sat down and talked with him? Right?” I, for one, would be thrilled were Archbishop Akinola to “sit down” with me and explain… Read more »
I just couldn’t resist :-/
“BabyBlue should know all this, and probably does.”
She does. I have explained about the non answering policy before, over at Father Jake’s place.
“… an unmistakable but superficial religious taint…”
As absolutely everywhere since Millennia back and forth ;=)