on Monday, 10 September 2007 at 9.40 pm by Simon Sarmiento
categorised as Anglican Communion
Anglican TV has a lengthy video (over 42 minutes) in which Archbishop Henry Orombi is questioned by reporters from the BBC (Christopher Landau), the Wall Street Journal, as well as Anglican TV, about the recent consecration of an American there.
Good to hear/see all of this narrative, right out in the open. Clearly, Orombi has pledged the rightwing realignment campaign, more or less fully, at least in principle. Quote: We are waiting for something better. Something better – bear false witness against queer folks, question askers, and alternative thinking or believing folks of all sorts and conditions. Something better – taking every institutional instance in power to deny fundamental human (and human rights bearing?) opportunities and resources to the target folks, that otherwise would be theirs if only they fit in sufficiently. Gospel = antigay. Period. End of story. Closed… Read more »
Listening to this, I simply ask why anyone should agree with him, and that if you don’t he crosses borders and the rest. Women, he says that’s ministry, but sexuality is “life and death” and talks on about the “orthodox”. I call it arrogance. He talks of morals, but his view is nothing to do with morals. One person is a bishop and he cuts off communion with them all, and it lacks contact. Does he really expect Rowan Williams to do his bidding? Perhaps he will, though first he will join the Americans in New Orleans including opening an… Read more »
Leonardo Ricardo
17 years ago
Anglican TV: My Review of +Orombi’s performance: Bold arrogance, the kind that rarely is confused with self-assurance…not a moment of humility or self-questioning/searching, considering…I see him as a dangerous human being who thinks he knows Gods “will” for ALL…this man is coldblooded/spiteful and especially harmful to LGBT people in Uganda (or anyone else who doesn’t go along with his bold know-it-all “pitch”) and beyond. I believe +Orombi appears (and isn’t really) more “reasonable” and “grounded” than his accomplice +Peter Akinola in Nigeria and therefore he will become the leader of the extremists in Global South/Africa as Akinola continues to strike… Read more »
badman
17 years ago
He really flounders on the distinction between biblical teaching on women in authority and on human sexuality. “whereas you can see very strongly in the scripture sexuality is clearly, clearly outlined and taught, nothing about ordination of women there” – if I didn’t know better, I would think from this that the good bishop didn’t know the Bible very well. There is much more in the Bible about subordination of women to men than there is about homosexuality, let alone covenanted and faithful homosexual relationships, and the scriptural arguments against the ordination of women are much stronger (although I don’t… Read more »
badman
17 years ago
And, for the record, he says:
“…We have shared with them our needs so they support us, they give us money. Oh they give us money. Since we began to relate with our orthodox brethren they have given us much more money, much more money, oh yeah, much more money. They have given us more money”
In context, he makes it clear that “much ore money” means much more from the schismatics than they used to get from The Episcopal Church.
Lapinbizarre
17 years ago
” …. they have given us much more money, much more money, oh yea, much more money”. A refreshingly, almost disarmingly disingenuous admission. And one that brings us back to the issue of Simony in the recent Central African consecrations of Cuckoo-in-the Nest, “White Boy” bishops.
Incidentally, these are the folks who have the gall to make allegations about “the impasse created by a London-based gay cleric, Nickie Henderson, who wants to buy a bishopric in the province [of Central Africa].”
Arthur
17 years ago
It is pretty clear that both sides are falling all over themselves to give money to their sympathizers in Africa. This says to me that the political power center of the AC has so shifted to Africa that virtual lobbies have been formed there by both liberals and conservatives. As an outsider (Catholic) it appears to me that both sides are equal participants in the shredding of the communion. The ABC is between a rock and a hard place, each bent on having their way thereby making impossible the institutional unity his office represents.
Chazaq
17 years ago
Off-Topic: What does “con-evo” mean?
Ford Elms
17 years ago
“And where does he get “they threw out the orthodox believers in their church” from? He is just making it up.” No, this comes from the myth. The screenplay as they construct it is that TEC has been taken over by evil pagan liberals who are systematically silencing and oppressing the faithful remnant. Either he knows this is a misinterpretation of the situation or he has so bought into the myth that he actually believes it. Either way, he is following a lie. If he is anything like the con-evos I have encountered here and on other sites, he will… Read more »
Arthur
17 years ago
Is not the refusal of APO by the HOB in direct defiance of the DES Communique an example of the oppression of conservatives? Why is it that APO which is supported by the Primates, the ABC (basically the entire AC) is so impossible in TEC? Has the leadership of TEC absolutely no compassion for those who believe differently? The refusal of the HOB to work toward APO in accord with the wishes of the Primates is, to my mind, the driving force behind the acceleration of border crossings since Feb.
John-Julian, OJN
17 years ago
In psychology that is called “delusions of grandeur and delusions of persecution” — both are universally recognized symptoms of paranoia, it not worse…
L Roberts
17 years ago
‘Is not the refusal of APO by the HOB in direct defiance of the DES Communique an example of the oppression of conservatives? Why is it that APO which is supported by the Primates, the ABC (basically the entire AC) is so impossible in TEC? Has the leadership of TEC absolutely no compassion for those who believe differently? The refusal of the HOB to work toward APO in accord with the wishes of the Primates is, to my mind, the driving force behind the acceleration of border crossings since Feb.’ Posted by: Arthur on Tuesday, 11 September 2007 at 7:45pm… Read more »
They were at it anyway, Arthur. It’s a “revolution”.
drdanfee
17 years ago
Is not the going realignment believer refusal to allow APO to acknowledge and proceed under the vocational authority of the Presiding Bishop as called/elected in TEC the whole germ of new Anglican separation in a nutshell? How very, very odd that the essence of con-evo realignment repression claims is that anybody would question their innate legacy rights to be high and mighty with heavy condemnations of all their favorite target people, while loudly proclaiming how happy they are that Jesus has saved them – unlike these silly, unworthy Others. Gee, isn’t there a New Testament parable in there, somewhere? The… Read more »
In as much as these things can be, the Windsor Report did TRY to strike a careful balance. So the report said the DEPO TEC had put in place was an adequate response to the needs of conservatives. Sadly the American conservatives were able to persuade several Primates this was not enough and we all know the rest. What has struck me recently, and the interview confirms this, is the slide from reason and careful argument into spin and polemic. WE may see this as a proxy war but the script being believed and articulated by the likes of so… Read more »
You know, I’ve been thinking about the claims that there could be the repression of the “faithful remnant” and decided that is probably true. There are probably parishes that no longer tolerate accusations and vilification against women. There are probably parishes that tell men that it is not okay to beat their wives or molest their children. There are probably parishes that have put in place child protection strategies to reduce the risk of pedophiles abusing parishioners or commmunity members’ children. There are probably parishes that denounce the idea that it is okay to ignore the needs of the poor… Read more »
Ford Elms
17 years ago
Arthur, What’s so oppressive to people in, say, Dallas(I merely use them as a convenient example, my comments apply to any conservative diocese) that there’s a woman in Washington with a miter on her head? Has she done anything to silence them? She hasn’t even moved to inhibit a bishop who rejects her authority, maliogns her faith, and is actively campaigning to spilt the Church and has been doing so, and claiming oppression by the evil pagan Liberals, long before she came along. A male Primate would be well within his rights to discipline such a rebel, yet she has… Read more »
JPM
17 years ago
Arthur, TEC did propose a primatial vicar plan, and the fundamentalists rejected it out of hand, perhaps because it would have made a lie of their political strategy of claiming persecution.
Arthur
17 years ago
A primatial vicar plan is not the same as APO. The vicar plan simply places someone working for the PB in between the PB and the parishes/dioceses/ministers in question. APO places these people and institutions under the pastoral care of one who believes as they believe. In the long run, I think conservatives feel they have to leave TEC because TEC does not respect them. With the Mark Lawrence debacle, it is pretty clear that conservative dioceses will not have their elected bishops confirmed within TEC. The greatest threat is the “tyranny of the majority” which is always a weakness… Read more »
The Chapman memo and other secret correspondence of the “conservatives” was obtained through litigation by a group called the Progressive Episcopalians of Pittsburgh. Among that documentation was a clear assertion that no matter what form of delegated episcopal oversight, flying bishops or even flying primates might be offered, the “conservatives” would reject it out of hand.
Martin This is a turbulence that had to happen. We were experiencing a slow death by the boa constrictors suffocating every attempt at reformation. Just as the Jews were slowly being suffocated out of existence by the Romans, with sycophantic priestly collusions. There comes a time where you have to make a stand. You have to stand up against tyranny, accusations and corruption and call on God to recall God’s promises of an everlasting covenant of peace, forgiveness and mercy for both Jews and Gentiles. Jesus knew what he was doing that fateful passover. Schori knew when she went to… Read more »
JPM
17 years ago
Arthur, would any Anglican church consent to having foreign bishops take control of parts of it? Can you imagine the CoE doing this? Nigeria? Uganda?
Add that was the whole point, of course: to demand what cannot be given and then cry persecution when denied the impossible. We’re talking bareknuckle right wing power politics here, not theology.
Ford Elms
17 years ago
“With the Mark Lawrence debacle, it is pretty clear that conservative dioceses will not have their elected bishops confirmed within TEC.” Unless you know something I don’t, the “Mark Lawrence debacle” came about because, while he had enough consents, they were not submitted properly. He was elected. He did not get the proper consents on time. He was given more time, not exactly what a cabal of plotters would do if they were trying to ostracize him, I would think. As to the “form” of his consents, yes the rules had changed, but is it not the responsibility of the… Read more »
L Roberts
17 years ago
Mark Lawrence stood again recently and was re-elected —- he was *miles ahead of the field * !
* context wilfully with-held *
Ford Elms
17 years ago
“TEC has only the legislative authority of the GC without an independent judicial system as a check and balance” Probably because the Church ought not to be organized on the same pattern as the United States government, or indeed any worldly government. Basically, it seems you do not think yourself democratically represented in the Church, and not protected by the guarantees of liberty provided in the US Consitution and Bill of Rights, but why should you be? The Church is supposed to be an icon of the Kingdom of God. It is not the Republic of God, and certainly not… Read more »
Good to hear/see all of this narrative, right out in the open. Clearly, Orombi has pledged the rightwing realignment campaign, more or less fully, at least in principle. Quote: We are waiting for something better. Something better – bear false witness against queer folks, question askers, and alternative thinking or believing folks of all sorts and conditions. Something better – taking every institutional instance in power to deny fundamental human (and human rights bearing?) opportunities and resources to the target folks, that otherwise would be theirs if only they fit in sufficiently. Gospel = antigay. Period. End of story. Closed… Read more »
Listening to this, I simply ask why anyone should agree with him, and that if you don’t he crosses borders and the rest. Women, he says that’s ministry, but sexuality is “life and death” and talks on about the “orthodox”. I call it arrogance. He talks of morals, but his view is nothing to do with morals. One person is a bishop and he cuts off communion with them all, and it lacks contact. Does he really expect Rowan Williams to do his bidding? Perhaps he will, though first he will join the Americans in New Orleans including opening an… Read more »
Anglican TV: My Review of +Orombi’s performance: Bold arrogance, the kind that rarely is confused with self-assurance…not a moment of humility or self-questioning/searching, considering…I see him as a dangerous human being who thinks he knows Gods “will” for ALL…this man is coldblooded/spiteful and especially harmful to LGBT people in Uganda (or anyone else who doesn’t go along with his bold know-it-all “pitch”) and beyond. I believe +Orombi appears (and isn’t really) more “reasonable” and “grounded” than his accomplice +Peter Akinola in Nigeria and therefore he will become the leader of the extremists in Global South/Africa as Akinola continues to strike… Read more »
He really flounders on the distinction between biblical teaching on women in authority and on human sexuality. “whereas you can see very strongly in the scripture sexuality is clearly, clearly outlined and taught, nothing about ordination of women there” – if I didn’t know better, I would think from this that the good bishop didn’t know the Bible very well. There is much more in the Bible about subordination of women to men than there is about homosexuality, let alone covenanted and faithful homosexual relationships, and the scriptural arguments against the ordination of women are much stronger (although I don’t… Read more »
And, for the record, he says:
“…We have shared with them our needs so they support us, they give us money. Oh they give us money. Since we began to relate with our orthodox brethren they have given us much more money, much more money, oh yeah, much more money. They have given us more money”
In context, he makes it clear that “much ore money” means much more from the schismatics than they used to get from The Episcopal Church.
” …. they have given us much more money, much more money, oh yea, much more money”. A refreshingly, almost disarmingly disingenuous admission. And one that brings us back to the issue of Simony in the recent Central African consecrations of Cuckoo-in-the Nest, “White Boy” bishops.
Incidentally, these are the folks who have the gall to make allegations about “the impasse created by a London-based gay cleric, Nickie Henderson, who wants to buy a bishopric in the province [of Central Africa].”
It is pretty clear that both sides are falling all over themselves to give money to their sympathizers in Africa. This says to me that the political power center of the AC has so shifted to Africa that virtual lobbies have been formed there by both liberals and conservatives. As an outsider (Catholic) it appears to me that both sides are equal participants in the shredding of the communion. The ABC is between a rock and a hard place, each bent on having their way thereby making impossible the institutional unity his office represents.
Off-Topic: What does “con-evo” mean?
“And where does he get “they threw out the orthodox believers in their church” from? He is just making it up.” No, this comes from the myth. The screenplay as they construct it is that TEC has been taken over by evil pagan liberals who are systematically silencing and oppressing the faithful remnant. Either he knows this is a misinterpretation of the situation or he has so bought into the myth that he actually believes it. Either way, he is following a lie. If he is anything like the con-evos I have encountered here and on other sites, he will… Read more »
Is not the refusal of APO by the HOB in direct defiance of the DES Communique an example of the oppression of conservatives? Why is it that APO which is supported by the Primates, the ABC (basically the entire AC) is so impossible in TEC? Has the leadership of TEC absolutely no compassion for those who believe differently? The refusal of the HOB to work toward APO in accord with the wishes of the Primates is, to my mind, the driving force behind the acceleration of border crossings since Feb.
In psychology that is called “delusions of grandeur and delusions of persecution” — both are universally recognized symptoms of paranoia, it not worse…
‘Is not the refusal of APO by the HOB in direct defiance of the DES Communique an example of the oppression of conservatives? Why is it that APO which is supported by the Primates, the ABC (basically the entire AC) is so impossible in TEC? Has the leadership of TEC absolutely no compassion for those who believe differently? The refusal of the HOB to work toward APO in accord with the wishes of the Primates is, to my mind, the driving force behind the acceleration of border crossings since Feb.’ Posted by: Arthur on Tuesday, 11 September 2007 at 7:45pm… Read more »
They were at it anyway, Arthur. It’s a “revolution”.
Is not the going realignment believer refusal to allow APO to acknowledge and proceed under the vocational authority of the Presiding Bishop as called/elected in TEC the whole germ of new Anglican separation in a nutshell? How very, very odd that the essence of con-evo realignment repression claims is that anybody would question their innate legacy rights to be high and mighty with heavy condemnations of all their favorite target people, while loudly proclaiming how happy they are that Jesus has saved them – unlike these silly, unworthy Others. Gee, isn’t there a New Testament parable in there, somewhere? The… Read more »
In as much as these things can be, the Windsor Report did TRY to strike a careful balance. So the report said the DEPO TEC had put in place was an adequate response to the needs of conservatives. Sadly the American conservatives were able to persuade several Primates this was not enough and we all know the rest. What has struck me recently, and the interview confirms this, is the slide from reason and careful argument into spin and polemic. WE may see this as a proxy war but the script being believed and articulated by the likes of so… Read more »
You know, I’ve been thinking about the claims that there could be the repression of the “faithful remnant” and decided that is probably true. There are probably parishes that no longer tolerate accusations and vilification against women. There are probably parishes that tell men that it is not okay to beat their wives or molest their children. There are probably parishes that have put in place child protection strategies to reduce the risk of pedophiles abusing parishioners or commmunity members’ children. There are probably parishes that denounce the idea that it is okay to ignore the needs of the poor… Read more »
Arthur, What’s so oppressive to people in, say, Dallas(I merely use them as a convenient example, my comments apply to any conservative diocese) that there’s a woman in Washington with a miter on her head? Has she done anything to silence them? She hasn’t even moved to inhibit a bishop who rejects her authority, maliogns her faith, and is actively campaigning to spilt the Church and has been doing so, and claiming oppression by the evil pagan Liberals, long before she came along. A male Primate would be well within his rights to discipline such a rebel, yet she has… Read more »
Arthur, TEC did propose a primatial vicar plan, and the fundamentalists rejected it out of hand, perhaps because it would have made a lie of their political strategy of claiming persecution.
A primatial vicar plan is not the same as APO. The vicar plan simply places someone working for the PB in between the PB and the parishes/dioceses/ministers in question. APO places these people and institutions under the pastoral care of one who believes as they believe. In the long run, I think conservatives feel they have to leave TEC because TEC does not respect them. With the Mark Lawrence debacle, it is pretty clear that conservative dioceses will not have their elected bishops confirmed within TEC. The greatest threat is the “tyranny of the majority” which is always a weakness… Read more »
The Chapman memo and other secret correspondence of the “conservatives” was obtained through litigation by a group called the Progressive Episcopalians of Pittsburgh. Among that documentation was a clear assertion that no matter what form of delegated episcopal oversight, flying bishops or even flying primates might be offered, the “conservatives” would reject it out of hand.
Martin This is a turbulence that had to happen. We were experiencing a slow death by the boa constrictors suffocating every attempt at reformation. Just as the Jews were slowly being suffocated out of existence by the Romans, with sycophantic priestly collusions. There comes a time where you have to make a stand. You have to stand up against tyranny, accusations and corruption and call on God to recall God’s promises of an everlasting covenant of peace, forgiveness and mercy for both Jews and Gentiles. Jesus knew what he was doing that fateful passover. Schori knew when she went to… Read more »
Arthur, would any Anglican church consent to having foreign bishops take control of parts of it? Can you imagine the CoE doing this? Nigeria? Uganda?
Add that was the whole point, of course: to demand what cannot be given and then cry persecution when denied the impossible. We’re talking bareknuckle right wing power politics here, not theology.
“With the Mark Lawrence debacle, it is pretty clear that conservative dioceses will not have their elected bishops confirmed within TEC.” Unless you know something I don’t, the “Mark Lawrence debacle” came about because, while he had enough consents, they were not submitted properly. He was elected. He did not get the proper consents on time. He was given more time, not exactly what a cabal of plotters would do if they were trying to ostracize him, I would think. As to the “form” of his consents, yes the rules had changed, but is it not the responsibility of the… Read more »
Mark Lawrence stood again recently and was re-elected —- he was *miles ahead of the field * !
* context wilfully with-held *
“TEC has only the legislative authority of the GC without an independent judicial system as a check and balance” Probably because the Church ought not to be organized on the same pattern as the United States government, or indeed any worldly government. Basically, it seems you do not think yourself democratically represented in the Church, and not protected by the guarantees of liberty provided in the US Consitution and Bill of Rights, but why should you be? The Church is supposed to be an icon of the Kingdom of God. It is not the Republic of God, and certainly not… Read more »