on Wednesday, 17 October 2007 at 10.09 pm by Simon Sarmiento
categorised as InclusiveChurch
Dr Joseph Cassidy of St Chad’s College, Durham gave a talk on the place of humility and grace within the Anglican Communion, to the Inclusive Church day conference held at St Matthew’s Westminster on 22 September.
Sorry, but we always have to come back to what is true. If Lambeth 1.10 is wrong that certain behaviour is “incompatible with scripture”, we should ditch or subordinate it as suggested ….but if it is right, then we cannot ignore scriptural truth on the grounds of humility, grace or Freedom.
Erika Baker
17 years ago
A wonderful wonderful talk. But – “We can only put that question to gay Christians with integrity if the rest of the Church is willing to act as sacrificially as we are calling others to act – which means, I think, that the Church has to be willing to abide by the answer gay people will give to such a request… …I say this because it may be supremely difficult for those who have been excluded to sanctify their continued exclusion by accepting this as a cross to be borne, as God’s will for them for the time-being.” I’m finding… Read more »
Ford Elms
17 years ago
NP,
Thanks for the chuckle! What is it about humility? Are you offended by it? Afraid of it? Scornful of it? Do you feel humility makes you weak? That perhaps if you behave humbly towards others, you might either allow them to fall into Eternal Damnation or might be a little too permissive of their sins, either way ending up sentenced to Eternal Damnation yourself? Trust God, He tells us to be humble, so He’s not going to punish you for being humble. You know He won’t punish you for obeying Him, so don’t be afraid.
Hi Erika I liked towards the end of Cassidy’s sermon, where he talked about the unilateral nature of grace. Also that covenants that come from God are inclusive by their nature to whomever group they are offered, and that while souls might be disobedient to those covenants, the intents and desires of God to honor the honorable continue. God is faithful, even if men are not. God is patient, even if men are not. God forgives, even if men will not. God provides shelter, even where men do not. God loves, even when men refute. Matthew 12:33-37 Jesus challenges accusers… Read more »
I was very impressed by Canon Cassidy’s talk — those Jesuits are very clever even when they are former Jesuits, I guess (& I speak as a Benedictine, an order that has been at odds with the Jesuits from their beginnings).
Of course as a “Catholic,” he is simply not on the same wavelength as the sectarian impulse of Protestantism — who was it who said that Catholicism means, “Here comes everyone!”?
I’m afraid that the language of God wants this and God wants that, or does not want – e.g. “If God chooses not to reveal X or Y as clearly as we might like, it’s no doubt because God prefers not to…” – just passes me by. He’s right about the American view of gay and lesbian inclusivity touches a nerve in American experience about having it the other way around – exclusion. He is right about biblical exceptions having been made, and grading acceptance of such exceptions, though again this distinction between matters apparently about salvation and those of… Read more »
Pluralist We have those who state that the scriptures have been completely fulfilled and are not open for new interpretations. (Sulk, apparently, they are open for editorial cuts which is why women are still under a curse despite Jesus’ crucifixion). We have others who state that the scriptures are evolving and that God sends prophets to help souls appreciate conflicting paradigms and highlight which paths will lead to healthy peaceful lives with abundance, versus those that will lead to disease tyranny death and poverty. There are examples in the bible where things are deferred to a future time, e.g. God… Read more »
Humility, Grace and Freedom……and Truth too?
Sorry, but we always have to come back to what is true. If Lambeth 1.10 is wrong that certain behaviour is “incompatible with scripture”, we should ditch or subordinate it as suggested ….but if it is right, then we cannot ignore scriptural truth on the grounds of humility, grace or Freedom.
A wonderful wonderful talk. But – “We can only put that question to gay Christians with integrity if the rest of the Church is willing to act as sacrificially as we are calling others to act – which means, I think, that the Church has to be willing to abide by the answer gay people will give to such a request… …I say this because it may be supremely difficult for those who have been excluded to sanctify their continued exclusion by accepting this as a cross to be borne, as God’s will for them for the time-being.” I’m finding… Read more »
NP,
Thanks for the chuckle! What is it about humility? Are you offended by it? Afraid of it? Scornful of it? Do you feel humility makes you weak? That perhaps if you behave humbly towards others, you might either allow them to fall into Eternal Damnation or might be a little too permissive of their sins, either way ending up sentenced to Eternal Damnation yourself? Trust God, He tells us to be humble, so He’s not going to punish you for being humble. You know He won’t punish you for obeying Him, so don’t be afraid.
Just a correction, NP. You talk about your opinion as if it is truth. It isn’t.
Indeed, conservative views about so-called scriptural ‘truth’ are themselves simply opinions which non-conservatives do not share.
Ford – did I say I had a problem with humility?
(clue: the answer is no)
But you have not affirmed that truth is just as (if not more) important.
I can imagine Galatian Ford telling Paul that he had no right to say harsh things about anybody….it is just not humble and so self-unaware etc etc
Truth matters and your “clobber verses” matter, Ford
Hi Erika I liked towards the end of Cassidy’s sermon, where he talked about the unilateral nature of grace. Also that covenants that come from God are inclusive by their nature to whomever group they are offered, and that while souls might be disobedient to those covenants, the intents and desires of God to honor the honorable continue. God is faithful, even if men are not. God is patient, even if men are not. God forgives, even if men will not. God provides shelter, even where men do not. God loves, even when men refute. Matthew 12:33-37 Jesus challenges accusers… Read more »
I was very impressed by Canon Cassidy’s talk — those Jesuits are very clever even when they are former Jesuits, I guess (& I speak as a Benedictine, an order that has been at odds with the Jesuits from their beginnings).
Of course as a “Catholic,” he is simply not on the same wavelength as the sectarian impulse of Protestantism — who was it who said that Catholicism means, “Here comes everyone!”?
I’m afraid that the language of God wants this and God wants that, or does not want – e.g. “If God chooses not to reveal X or Y as clearly as we might like, it’s no doubt because God prefers not to…” – just passes me by. He’s right about the American view of gay and lesbian inclusivity touches a nerve in American experience about having it the other way around – exclusion. He is right about biblical exceptions having been made, and grading acceptance of such exceptions, though again this distinction between matters apparently about salvation and those of… Read more »
Pluralist We have those who state that the scriptures have been completely fulfilled and are not open for new interpretations. (Sulk, apparently, they are open for editorial cuts which is why women are still under a curse despite Jesus’ crucifixion). We have others who state that the scriptures are evolving and that God sends prophets to help souls appreciate conflicting paradigms and highlight which paths will lead to healthy peaceful lives with abundance, versus those that will lead to disease tyranny death and poverty. There are examples in the bible where things are deferred to a future time, e.g. God… Read more »