“It is our voice that is called to affirm that all unions of faithful love and lifelong commitment are worthy of God’s blessing,” Really? I thought marriage was about something quite different. Besides, why is this so pressing in Montreal? I mean, Canada has legalized same sex marriage, he can hardly make this into a human rights issue. He’s in Quebec, for God’s sake, it’s hardly prophetic for the Anglican Church to come out in favour of something the surrounding culture, rooted in Roman Catholicism and for which the Anglican Church is the Church of the occupier, got over a… Read more »
Geoff McLarney
16 years ago
Can Toronto be far behind? Our synod is in the spring. Fingers crossed, and all that.
drdanfee
16 years ago
Aw come on, Ford, you are way smarter than that. The prophetic witness is flowing into church life from civil society outside – where God is apparently doing many good things in committed queer couple life and parenting that are challenging the traditionalistic negative witness about just those daily lives, the negative witness inside church life. When common sense and honest empirical observations take a look at those couple goods, surprise – the goods turn out to be remarkably similar to the goods we can see and appreciate in functioning straight couple marriages. Queer folks parenting – COLAGE counts ten… Read more »
JCF
16 years ago
Who are you, and what have you done w/ Ford Elms? :-/
“unions of faithful love and lifelong commitment”
Sounds like marriage to me.
I mean, no: it’s not as “prophetic” in Montreal, as it would be in Lagos. But still…
Ford Elms
16 years ago
“what have you done w/ Ford Elms? :-/” I’ve always stated that marriage, whatever else it is for, is not about “affirmation” or validation of anything. Frankly, I find arguments about the validation of relationships to be blatant evidence of people missing the point entirely. I mean, by virtue of our baptisms, we are made new creations, citizens of the Kingdom of God, counted worthy to call the Creator of all that exists “Daddy”, privileged to stand before Him, united in the Eucharist with all who have gone before and who are to come, we need fear nothing, not even… Read more »
“And while you’re at it, explain how matrimony is a sacrament at all, since it doesn’t seem to fit with the other six.”
Ford, could you unpack this a bit?
Ford Elms
16 years ago
Well, in Baptism the believer is made “member of Christ, child of God, and inheritor of the Kingdom of Heaven”. We are made a new creation. The Eucharist is about many things, but, like baptism, is about the believer and God, speaking generally. Confession heals the breach between the believer, the community, and God caused by sin, confirmation is an accident of history, and properly is part of Baptism. In Unction, the believer is strengthend by God to deal with physical weakness, and is healed, though not usually physically. Holy Order is the assurance of Grace, that we are following… Read more »
Father Ron Smith
16 years ago
“…if I’m wrong here, could someone explain to me what it is that makes the validation of human relationships somehow a sacrament? And while you’re at it, explain how matrimony is a sacrament at all, since it doesn’t seem to fit with the other six.” – Ford Elms – Dear Ford, Having discussed this question with more than one Roman Catholic priest of my acquaintance, it has been generally agreed that the charism of the *Sacrament* of Marriage is administered by the couple themselves, towards each other. The priest is there to offer God’s Blessing through the Church. This raises… Read more »
Erika Baker
16 years ago
Father Ron
“Having discussed this question with more than one Roman Catholic priest of my acquaintance, it has been generally agreed that the charism of the *Sacrament* of Marriage is administered by the couple themselves, towards each other.”
If I understand Ford correctly, he asks not who administers the sacrament, but whether marriage, which he sees to be intrinsically focused on the other person involved not on God, is a sacrament at all.
Ford Elms
16 years ago
What Erika said. It seems to me to be about something different than the others. It isn’t about the relationship between the believer and God or the believer and the ecclesia. It isn’t about God’s intervention in His Creation through the simplest things of that Creation, like water, wine (far more basic 2000 years ago than now) oil, salt, etc. It seems to me to have more the nature of social contract. It has always struck me as emblematic of the Imperial Church’s taking on of the right to approve and maintain a certain social status quo, to be more… Read more »
Father Ron Smith
16 years ago
“Maybe it’s about a Created thing: the relationship, making manifest in the world the Divine interrelationship, an Earthly manifestation of the “community” nature of God. Does that make any sense?” – Ford Elms – Indeed, Ford, I think it does makie sense. When I was a small boy in catechism class, we learnt that: ‘A sacrament is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace’. Perhaps, with marriage, the actual sacrament is manifest in the commitment between the two people concerned. In the case of Christian marriage, the Church has made it plain that it expects to… Read more »
Ford Elms
16 years ago
“The prophetic witness is flowing into church life from civil society outside” If this IS true, drdanfee, then the Church cannot claim a prophetic voice. Those who are being prophesied to cannot claim to be prophets themselves. Use of the word ‘prophetic’ then is just as self-serving as use of the word ‘orthodox’ is for those conservatives who use it, and just as patently false. “Perhaps, with marriage, the actual sacrament is manifest in the commitment between the two people concerned.” Perhaps so, an earthly manifestation of the union “betwixt Christ and His Church”. If so, there’s stuff to be… Read more »
Father Ron Smith
16 years ago
I suppose Ford, that here we need to try to understand the deeper meaning of what the Church calls being ‘The bride of Christ’. It seems to me that this could describe the relationship of anyone one (or two or more) person(s) with Jesus through their baptism into Christ. In any case, as we are assured in Scripture, “In Christ, there is neither male nor female”. Also, that there will be no such thing as *marriage* in heaven. What do you make of all that, Ford? Perhaps we can only say, with Paul, that: “Here we see through a glass… Read more »
“It is our voice that is called to affirm that all unions of faithful love and lifelong commitment are worthy of God’s blessing,” Really? I thought marriage was about something quite different. Besides, why is this so pressing in Montreal? I mean, Canada has legalized same sex marriage, he can hardly make this into a human rights issue. He’s in Quebec, for God’s sake, it’s hardly prophetic for the Anglican Church to come out in favour of something the surrounding culture, rooted in Roman Catholicism and for which the Anglican Church is the Church of the occupier, got over a… Read more »
Can Toronto be far behind? Our synod is in the spring. Fingers crossed, and all that.
Aw come on, Ford, you are way smarter than that. The prophetic witness is flowing into church life from civil society outside – where God is apparently doing many good things in committed queer couple life and parenting that are challenging the traditionalistic negative witness about just those daily lives, the negative witness inside church life. When common sense and honest empirical observations take a look at those couple goods, surprise – the goods turn out to be remarkably similar to the goods we can see and appreciate in functioning straight couple marriages. Queer folks parenting – COLAGE counts ten… Read more »
Who are you, and what have you done w/ Ford Elms? :-/
“unions of faithful love and lifelong commitment”
Sounds like marriage to me.
I mean, no: it’s not as “prophetic” in Montreal, as it would be in Lagos. But still…
“what have you done w/ Ford Elms? :-/” I’ve always stated that marriage, whatever else it is for, is not about “affirmation” or validation of anything. Frankly, I find arguments about the validation of relationships to be blatant evidence of people missing the point entirely. I mean, by virtue of our baptisms, we are made new creations, citizens of the Kingdom of God, counted worthy to call the Creator of all that exists “Daddy”, privileged to stand before Him, united in the Eucharist with all who have gone before and who are to come, we need fear nothing, not even… Read more »
“And while you’re at it, explain how matrimony is a sacrament at all, since it doesn’t seem to fit with the other six.”
Ford, could you unpack this a bit?
Well, in Baptism the believer is made “member of Christ, child of God, and inheritor of the Kingdom of Heaven”. We are made a new creation. The Eucharist is about many things, but, like baptism, is about the believer and God, speaking generally. Confession heals the breach between the believer, the community, and God caused by sin, confirmation is an accident of history, and properly is part of Baptism. In Unction, the believer is strengthend by God to deal with physical weakness, and is healed, though not usually physically. Holy Order is the assurance of Grace, that we are following… Read more »
“…if I’m wrong here, could someone explain to me what it is that makes the validation of human relationships somehow a sacrament? And while you’re at it, explain how matrimony is a sacrament at all, since it doesn’t seem to fit with the other six.” – Ford Elms – Dear Ford, Having discussed this question with more than one Roman Catholic priest of my acquaintance, it has been generally agreed that the charism of the *Sacrament* of Marriage is administered by the couple themselves, towards each other. The priest is there to offer God’s Blessing through the Church. This raises… Read more »
Father Ron
“Having discussed this question with more than one Roman Catholic priest of my acquaintance, it has been generally agreed that the charism of the *Sacrament* of Marriage is administered by the couple themselves, towards each other.”
If I understand Ford correctly, he asks not who administers the sacrament, but whether marriage, which he sees to be intrinsically focused on the other person involved not on God, is a sacrament at all.
What Erika said. It seems to me to be about something different than the others. It isn’t about the relationship between the believer and God or the believer and the ecclesia. It isn’t about God’s intervention in His Creation through the simplest things of that Creation, like water, wine (far more basic 2000 years ago than now) oil, salt, etc. It seems to me to have more the nature of social contract. It has always struck me as emblematic of the Imperial Church’s taking on of the right to approve and maintain a certain social status quo, to be more… Read more »
“Maybe it’s about a Created thing: the relationship, making manifest in the world the Divine interrelationship, an Earthly manifestation of the “community” nature of God. Does that make any sense?” – Ford Elms – Indeed, Ford, I think it does makie sense. When I was a small boy in catechism class, we learnt that: ‘A sacrament is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace’. Perhaps, with marriage, the actual sacrament is manifest in the commitment between the two people concerned. In the case of Christian marriage, the Church has made it plain that it expects to… Read more »
“The prophetic witness is flowing into church life from civil society outside” If this IS true, drdanfee, then the Church cannot claim a prophetic voice. Those who are being prophesied to cannot claim to be prophets themselves. Use of the word ‘prophetic’ then is just as self-serving as use of the word ‘orthodox’ is for those conservatives who use it, and just as patently false. “Perhaps, with marriage, the actual sacrament is manifest in the commitment between the two people concerned.” Perhaps so, an earthly manifestation of the union “betwixt Christ and His Church”. If so, there’s stuff to be… Read more »
I suppose Ford, that here we need to try to understand the deeper meaning of what the Church calls being ‘The bride of Christ’. It seems to me that this could describe the relationship of anyone one (or two or more) person(s) with Jesus through their baptism into Christ. In any case, as we are assured in Scripture, “In Christ, there is neither male nor female”. Also, that there will be no such thing as *marriage* in heaven. What do you make of all that, Ford? Perhaps we can only say, with Paul, that: “Here we see through a glass… Read more »