Madeleine Davies writes for the Church Times: Women-bishops proposals: ombudsman in new package.
The Church Times also has this leader: No light task.
Andrew Grey writes for On Religion: Women Bishops in Wales: Just Conforming to Culture?
Miranda Threlfall-Holmes blogs: Women Bishops: Take Two…
Will Adam writes for Law & Religion UK Women bishops – what you see and what you don’t.
Hats off (or should that be mitres?) to James Langstaff for steering his committee thus far. I’m not too bothered about the ‘male headship’ spat: no one on Planet Earth is going to take that too seriously any more. A Single Clause Measure is quite obviously the way forward (let the dissenters have their Ombudfuscatorman!) I am still a bit concerned by the behaviour of The Famous Five? At least Paul Benfield and Susie Leafe have the honesty to nail their colours to the mast. What are the other three up to? And please don’t suggest they or their followers… Read more »
The discussion about what each committee, splinter group, faction, blogger or whatever said is irrelevant. The CofE faces a stark choice. It either passes a simple, straightforward measure which can be clearly understood to put sexism back into the past, or it will find itself shunned by almost all of its historic allies. That will include the UK government and any charity which has a diversity and equality policy which excludes working with discriminatory organisations. Anywhere with a “no platform for sexists” policy could and probably would also refuse to permit the CofE to speak. There’s only so long you… Read more »
“care more about links with Nairobi then links with Norfolk”
Hey Interested Observer. Norfolk – isn’t that where Walsingham is that beacon of inclusivity or were you talking about Norfolk VA? 🙂
Shouldn’t Mrs Leafe, believing as she does, defer to her *husband* serving on this august Steering Committee? Methinks she’s exerting far too much “headship” over the CofE, in her position!
:-p~~
“Just conforming to culture?” Erastianism Rules O. K.
I find the idea of reserving a spot in the College of Bishops for a person who holds theological views that are not accepted in the larger church highly problematic. “Male headship” is not accepted doctrine. Reserving a position for one who holds that bizarre and unaccepted view just seems odd. It of course enshrines a discriminatory practice from a church leader, albeit limited to one. Somehow, it seems like there ought to be a way to make provisions that don’t enshrine discrimination. Also, I’m not seeing what the plan is for this problematic bishop. Will he have authority over… Read more »
” I’m not too bothered about the ‘male headship’ spat: no one on Planet Earth is going to take that too seriously any more.” – Stephen Morgan – Don’t you believe that, Stephen. There are Anglicans even in little old New Zealand – and even women – who still hold to the antiquated quasi-religious understanding that a woman’s place is only in the home, the kitchen, the laundry, and – when the male of the house requires it, in the bedroom! When will the Male Headship bubble ever be busted? God knows, women – even in the Bible – have… Read more »
The predictable diatribes on this particular thread suggest to me that those offering them still think they will not have got it all their own way if the latest proposals go through. Good! It means the proposals have struck the right balance. Very cheap and nasty shot concerning Walsingham though. Seriously unfunny!
I don’t often find myself agreeing with Benedict, but I think he makes a fair point. This isn’t about everyone’s individual wish list but this is about a specific proposal and whether it constitutes an acceptable compromise for all.
I am greatly encouraged that those official groups who have spoken about it so far all seem to think it’s workable.
‘They will not have got it all their own way if the latest proposals go through.’ Benedict, I think it is more a concern that the ‘proposals’ go through at all! If you read my ‘predictable diatribe’ you should note that I think the Steering Committee have done a good job! I just find it hard to bring myself to believe that certain members of that Committee will meekly accept anything resembling Option One? (They do have ‘form’ in this area!) I will be delighted to be proved wrong! Some of us are concerned that women should be made bishops… Read more »
“minorities who have lost the arguments – theologically and numerically” Stephen Morgan.I think you’ll find that with respect to the ordination of women to both priesthood and the episcopate the theolgical arguments have not been lost cf millions upon millions of Roman Catholics and orthodox compared to how many Anglicans??? Since when did that constitute a minority Breathtaking arrogance.
Glad you’re still with us, Benedict. I personally am still with you.
“I think you’ll find that with respect to the ordination of women to both priesthood and the episcopate the theolgical arguments have not been lost … “ But Rome has been able to maintain the male priesthood only by giving up any pretense of theological argumentation and simply declaring the subject verboten. As Tobias Haller has cogently pointed out, if a Mass celebrated by a woman is invalid then (assuming a Chalcedonian christology) so is the institution on Maundy Thursday (since Christ’s human nature is entirely derived from his Blessed Mother). There’s no way around that, and Rome is no… Read more »
“Since when did that constitute a minority Breathtaking arrogance.? I find it breathtaking that folks so readily ignore ALL of the Protestant denominations. Also, when it comes to the Orthodox, lay people really don’t feel empowered to follow conscience to change the church, so they leave. Or stay for cultural reasons. It is really false to use “the Orthodox don’t do it” as an argument against ordination of women. And Rome? Listen to Francis. Very interesting. Many, many Catholics yearn for women in ordained ministry. Just because the hierarchy rules with an iron fist does not mean that misogynistic theology… Read more »
‘Since when did that constitute a minority?’ The General Synod of the CofE voted years ago that there was no theological objection to women’s ordination, and that has always been reflected in majority votes that increase every time they are made – as you well know, Benedict. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches have not even been allowed to have the argument yet, so claiming that ‘millions upon millions’ of them are against the ordination of women is a spurious claim at best. And I will take no lectures on arrogance from one who has accused me publicly on another… Read more »
I think that, with the Vatican’s new initiative, to consult with bishops, clergy and laity around the world; Benedict may find attitudes changing in the Roman Catholic Church – when they get the opinion of the clergy and lay majority on file. And not only on women’s ordination, but on other important matters too, like contraception and homosexuality.
My hands are up, yes, regretfully I made the mistake of mixing Stephen Morgan with a n other, but it still seems from Mr Morgan’s offerings on this thread that he might by and large have concurred with the sentiments of those wishing to displace Dr Giddings. Would that be an incorrect assumption as well?
Benedict, thank you for the (almost) apology. I disagree profoundly with Dr Giddings over the ordination of women and his views on the LGBT community, but he is the democratically elected Lay Chairman of General Synod. I never have, and never would try and remove anyone elected on that basis during their term of office, just because I disagreed with them. (After all, I lived under Mrs Thatcher for eighteen years!!) So your assumption is only partially correct. It should come as no great surprise to anyone (even you) that a regular contributor to this site should not see eye… Read more »
Listen Stephen, I don’t think it’s helpful to tear chunks out of each other. You and I will probably never agree on the fundamentals of the ordination of women, but it remains my sincere hope and prayer that the C of E will remain sufficiently commodious to accommodate such difference of understanding. We have to see each other as more than the views we hold.
Rome has also maintained the male Priesthood by abandoning the Mass as a regular part of worship in many churches. Not in England where ex-CofE Priests keep the numbers up, but in parts of the continent where there are simply too few male celibate Priests to sustain the Mass as a frequent feature on worship in many parishes.
Dutch RC Ordinands I have met saw sustaining the Mass as far more important than sustaining an exclusively male celibate Priesthood.
But you can’t sustain the Mass WITHOUT a male priesthood! This is what always makes me laugh (or cry sometimes). This is NOT a matter of taste, it’s not a question of simply preferring a male priest to a female priest. That would be misogyny. It’s that women CAN’T be priests however much we subject them to the ceremony of ordination, however much they go through the motions of celebrating Mass, however much they give sacramental absolution. It doesn’t work. It’s testament to the lamentable quality of Roman Catholic ordination training if they are talking as you describe in the… Read more »
Barrie “women CAN’T be priests”.
Well that’s a view. But it is not supported by any actual evidence. Rather there is plenty of evidence to the contrary — where women have been priests over the last 20 or 30 years. Is it possible to notice a difference (other than the sex of the priest)? No, I don’t think so.
Benedict: I’m more than happy to agree to differ! Barrie: ‘women can’t be priests.’ I suppose it depends where Barrie is coming from? I was a priest for over twenty years and I now receive the sacrament from a woman. I have not noticed any difference! Of course, if Barrie is a Roman Catholic then he would not recognise my ordination as valid thus there must be hundreds/thousands of people who have not received the proper sacrament through me! At what point will God make clear to them/us the error of our ways? Barrie seems very convinced – but where… Read more »
The Benfield and Leafe votes are probably slightly different in kind. Fr Benfield is unable, on the basis of his principles, to vote *in favour* of anything that entails women priests/bishops. But that does not mean that he or the Catholic Group are necessarily against this new legislation as the way forward. It’s highly likely that the Catholic Group will go down the line of principled abstention. They know that this is the best deal that they are going to get – and that it can be made to work for them. Conservative evangelicals are probably a stage further back… Read more »
Well if Pete’s analysis is correct, and lets hope it is, there is every chance that General Synod, and the House of Laity in particular,will achieve the necessary votes to pass the legislation and then we will be able to demonstrate to those in difficulty over this how they can flourish not by law but good will – or is that just a little naive?
With the Church Times Editorial this week, it seems that the idea of an ‘ombudsman’, charged with the authority to deal with possible complaints by the minority who wish to have the episcopal ministry of a Male Bishop, seems, at first glance, to provide a necessary tool for negotiation with the Diocesan Bishop – if Female – to secure a suitable arrangement for people who will not accept her episcopal ministry, but who still recognise her right to delegate that to a Male Bishop of her choice. At least, that is my perception of how the ombudsman system could be… Read more »
“This is NOT a matter of taste … That would be misogyny.”
Uh-huh …
“It’s that women CAN’T be priests however much we subject them to the ceremony of ordination, however much they go through the motions of celebrating Mass, however much they give sacramental absolution. It doesn’t work.”
Well, thank goodness you cleared that up. However could anyone mistake that for misogyny?
‘And they all lived happily ever after.’
That – more or less – seems to be what is emerging here. Were all the fights and squabbles necessary? Perhaps they were – if only to show people of whatever hue where their true hearts lay. Considerable credit due to PB, who has steered a very honourable course.