Thinking Anglicans

The relative holding of numbers in the Diocese of London is seen by some commentators as a small decline given the increase in population. But has anybody any ideas why north of the Thames (London) has done better than south (Southwark) which has declined 10%?

That Jonathan Draper piece is fantastic.

RE London vs Southwark… We’re dealing with classic false equivalence. London Diocese and Southwark are not two identical halves of one city. Conservatives try to claim the difference occurs because of Southwark’s generally liberal theological outlook. This is wishful thinking on the part of conservatives. London /Southwark is more a tale of two cities rather than two parts of the same city. As all Londoners know, south of the river is very different to north of the river. South London is mostly suburban: north London has suburbs but also almost all of what most of people think of as London,… Read more »

Ian Paul has drawn attention to a serious problem. Standards in many prisons fall far short of what might be expected in the twenty-first century and indeed basic human rights, which also makes rehabilitation harder. As someone whose work has occasionally took me inside prisons a year or two ago, I am perhaps more aware that I would otherwise be, but there have been a number of documentaries which give some idea of the conditions, made worse by public sector cuts.

Historically, south of the Thames was under the jurisdiction of the diocese of Winchester and the bishop was far more lenient than his opposite number north of the Thames and allowed such things as theatres and ladies of the night to operate freely.

One factor in South London is the strong growth of independent churches, many of which are Pentecostal, and with entirely or mainly black congregations.

‘Sadly, the Church will have none of it [sex] – except for procreation.’ The C of E doesn’t teach that sex is only for procreation. On the other hand, it’s difficult to get away from the New Testament’s teaching that sex is for committed and faithful relationships. That’s not something we can change just because our culture doesn’t agree – few cultures and times ever have. The Corinthians in St. Paul’s time certainly didn’t. What is clear from even a cursory reading of the Bible is that God has been pretty tolerant of varying sexual behaviours – Abraham’s concubine Hagar;… Read more »

The diocese of London has more historic money..and can thus keep one priest one parish more easily than Southwark.I’m sure that’s a factor.E.g.the South Camden deanery is kept afloat partly by the St Pancras Lands trust.Interestingly tho Southwark clergy are paid more.

Thank you Fr Andrew. I can see like needs to be compared with like, and that central London churches (mainly in the Diocese of London) are likely to attract more visitors – but not much more than that. I too don’t buy the argument that difference in theology is the reason – nor what Fr David says about independent Pentecostal churches being prevalent in Southwark. They are equally so in London. I also hear what Perry Butler is saying – and his argument explains why the total NUMBERS in London far exceed Southwark. However I don’t think we’ve got to… Read more »

IO: as others have pointed out, you are the king of exaggeration on this theme. Exhibit A:

“you’re a bad person who we despise for your bad living”

“However I don’t think we’ve got to why there should be a decline in one Diocese and not the other… ….Any other thoughts?” I’m not sure I have any idea. Looking at the stats I think the question ‘why is London growing and Southwark isn’t’ is a red herring because it invites us to get bogged down in specifics about Southwark rather than asking the question why are ALL Dioceses, apart from London (and latterly Norwich) declining? There’s something more going on than the peculiarities of particular dioceses. While accepting that London may have been more on the missional ball… Read more »

I should wonder if the resistance to CofE, reflected in statistics, is that it smells too much of establishment. Church=Institution.

This could also explain why the growth is in church spaces perceived to be something else, even “raucous Jesus” or what others regard as bad music, etc.

England is trying to understand “who it is” and what the heritage of “established Christianity” actually is, as a powerful spiritual reality able to change people’s lives in Jesus Christ.

Diverting attention to LGBTQI issues pro/con in order to understand this deep reality is going to fail and fail miserably.

I think the majority of ordinary people in this country just don’t find the Christianity they are offered (or observe) the most convincing paradigm for understanding the whole picture of why we are here in life or how to find relevance in its particular set of values and assertions. Taken as a whole, a rational, scientific world explanation provides what they assess to be a more credible paradigm. Too much of the Christian package still seems straddled by dependence on ancient text, and a religious culture of asserting it is always right. In short, however nice Christians (sometimes) seem to… Read more »

“I should wonder if the resistance to CofE, reflected in statistics, is that it smells too much of establishment. Church=Institution.” Suspect there’s much truth here, CRS. People are, to put it mildly, disenchanted with institutions. Those successful charismatic-evangelical churches aren’t just lively, accessible places: they’re perceived as being more authentic than the habitat of the Tory Party at prayer. Christendom without coercion’s a death sentence for the church. When people aren’t free to leave, doesn’t matter that the church is corrupted by power: but when there’s a free market of religion, many will go elsewhere, or nowhere. Yes, millions ignore… Read more »

Bravo, Ian Paul – and how interesting that the usual Anglican obsession means that his post has attracted not one comment here, sex-obsessed as we are. The British prison system is not only a national shame, so too is the virtual silence from the Church of England about how these overcrowded human warehouses are a major contributor to social disintegration, especially in our most deprived communities. It is significant that Cardinal Nichols, addressing the prison chaplains’ conference last year, threw down a challenge to the government and said the Catholic church was ready and waiting to play its part in… Read more »

I think one of the biggest indictments of the current prison system is that it’s not safe for anyone to be sent to. Whatever we think of criminals and crime, we at least owe each human being a duty of care when we lock them up. However, going on some recent inspection reports, bullying is rife, especially among young offenders. In the absence of strong alternative culture inside – rather than abdication under the guise of ‘humane containment’ – what happens is that the Street comes inside the prison and takes over. If you do not build alternative environments and… Read more »

T Pott again: “Sometimes the Church of England seems to think religious education is more about learning to respect other cultures than about passing on a priceless pearl”. Couldn’t agree more. Not only religious education. It’s frightening to see the way in which some clergy emasculate Christianity at so-called interfaith events in order to appear to be accommodating. No wonder some other faith leaders have little respect for us.

“Muslim leaders don’t tell their communities they aren’t proper Muslims” Er, they do. Accusations of takfir are thrown are with illiberal abandon, not only along the Sunni/Shia divide, and obviously of Ahmadiyya, but in far more detailed disputes. Parenthetically, It’s ironic that every time the media want a counter-example to extremism the Ahmadiyya are brought up, ignoring that most Muslims don’t regard them as Muslims: it’s as though someone tried to argue that Christians do or don’t take a particular position by reference to Unitarians. So for example, it is routinely claimed that Evolution is incompatible with Islam, and believers… Read more »

I’d be tempted to explore economic factors behind church growth. Having a church plant in an area where property prices are rising means you can generate significant rental income to help keep the church afloat, and my own (very non-scientific) observations suggest this is relevant in London, especially in central areas. You might want also to factor in average incomes, on the assumption this influences congregational giving. Combine this with a general sociological observation that the Church of England has always attracted the middle and upper classes much better than the working classes or the poor, and that might explain… Read more »

“Bravo, Ian Paul – and how interesting that the usual Anglican obsession means that his post has attracted not one comment here, sex-obsessed as we are.”

Actually, Savi Hensman commented about it on Saturday. Does she not count? That could lead us into the second biggest obsession, WO, WB, and the voice of women.

And why are you denigrating TA’s obsession with justice for me, my wife and LGBTQI people?

“Can’t see how any of this would explain Norwich though. (I’m tempted to imagine Norwich is a statistical quirk.)” @Charles Clapham Having had a look at the figures the C of E has published, it took me a while to see where David Keen got his 5% rise for Norwich diocese from. The big rise is partly one of those big percentage jumps that occur with changes in small statistical populations (5.5% = 800 people) and partly the category one chooses to observe. The 5.51% figure was arrived at by considering the reporting category ‘Usual Sunday attendance’ for which Norwich… Read more »