As so often, I feel grateful for Kevin’s comments: this week, on inclusive language. I agree, that it boils down to thoughtfulness, kindness, respect. I guess, as a transgender female, I’m pretty sensitive to the ways careless language can erase or strip dignity from your identity. I feel the same way about gender in worship, liturgy, and public prayer. While I accept, pragmatically, that God is traditionally presented more often as ‘Father’ and ‘He’ and ‘Lord’ – and I can go along with that to an extent because I ‘get’ that it works for a lot of people – nevertheless,… Read more »
David Emmott
6 years ago
Ian Paul says a lot about the context of ordination training, about college finances and colleges vis a vis non-residential courses. He doesn’t appear to say very much about the *content*, and in particular the balance between formal biblical and theological instruction, informal sharing and discussion, and most importantly, the establishing of a solid discipline of prayer and liturgical formation, as part of a living and worshipping community. Having been trained more years ago than I care to remember, in a very traditional college, what I am most grateful for is the latter. Regular worship in the daily office and… Read more »
Susannah Clark
6 years ago
My own little religious life is founded on and framed by the daily disciplines of convent and its community. I have to agree with David: the daily routine of early morning prayer and contemplation, the offices, and time for lectio divina, along with mass/eucharist together – surely these are fundamentals for an aspirant setting out on ministry? A way of life as the priority, without which all the skills in the world may not be properly anchored. I was wondering on course content myself, as I read Ian’s call for some standardisation of theological training. There is so much to… Read more »
not flourishinghighchurchwoman
6 years ago
David Emmott, you seem to assume that non-residential training does not have contemplative prayer and the daily office at its heart. Many of us could not train full time in residential courses and we would not be accepted anyway as being over the age our diocese is prepared to invest in. However, it is contemplative prayer that has brought many of us to this point and our well established prayer practice and spiritual life is shared with our colleagues and our very different lives contribute greatly to our spiritual journey together.
Charles Read
6 years ago
The label ‘non-residential’ is no longer used by many courses. Our preferred label is part residential because we think the residential component is essential for reasons of formation.
Kate
6 years ago
Kelvin’s heart is in the right place and his intentions are very good, but to a certain extent he is swimming against the tide. Women have reclaimed words like actor, sailor, soldier – even minister – which were historically gendered and made them gender-inclusive. ‘Mankind’, I would argue is already, or is close to being, gender-inclusive too. In avoiding and replacing terms which have historically been gendered, he denies and hinders that process of reclamation. As I say, his intentions cannot be faulted, but I question whether he is really best serving the interests of equality, of women, in the… Read more »
Andrew Lightbown
6 years ago
I read David’s comments as a critique of Ian’s article on the ‘content’ of ministerial education and not on whether full time or part time students are more or less likely to engage with the essential and formational spiritual practices. All training for ministry should provide the space for the practical, the academic and the formational.
Susannah Clark
6 years ago
Rod: “Happy St Andrew’s Day”
Indeed – I have the haggis, neeps and tatties on the go.
And the Talisker to accompany.
I always love November 30th 🙂
David Rowett
6 years ago
Ministerial stegosaurus speaks (small brained, thick-skinned). I hear of courses where the biblical element’s been squeezed down to 20 hours of lectures and two assignments. Now I realise that (regrettably) a working knowledge of Coptic is no longer a feature of most of the sits. vac. in the Church Times, but wonder whether enough time’s given to encountering the fundamental strangeness of the biblical text. I recall finding so much of the material alien in language and thought-form, and I like to think it made me cautious about reading off from the texts that which chimed in with my take… Read more »
David Runcorn
6 years ago
As someone involved in theological education/development either side of ordained/authorised ministry an additional concern regarding the space given to study of scripture in training is how much less knowledge of the bible people are starting courses with. They are starting from much further back than previous generations. In my tutorial group morning prayers at a theological college a few years ago the student asked to read the OT lectionary reading from Deuteronomy was spotted looking for ‘Deuteronomy’ in his Bible index.
Lavinia Nelder
6 years ago
On training for those of us doing one evening a week on the certificate course. We did introductions to: Church History, Christian Ethics, Spirituality, Theological Reflection, Old Testament and New Testament. Those of us doing it for fun also got a self directed project. The diploma course is currently thrashing its way through Bible in Context (Isaiah and Mark), So I reckon we’ve had quite a lot of scripture so far, but without having to learn Hebrew or Aramaic. The academic content is rigorous but rooted in what is needed for modern ministry – and that means finding out how… Read more »
” Regular worship in the daily office and eucharist and time set aside for contemplative/meditative prayer is at the heart of the priestly life. I wonder quite how people being trained on the many non-residential courses are now being formed in this way, and if not how? That is the heart of theology.” David Emmet – Well, David, with the new emphasis on ‘Bums on Seats’ and administrative efficiency these valuable elements – prayer and liturgical worship – would seem to have been left behind, to the lasting detriment of formation in activities that were once basic to a priestly… Read more »
Canon Chuck Robertson’s article on the connection between SEC and TEC outlines the critical factor of the ordination of the first TEC (PECUSA) Bishop by Bishops of the Scottish Episcopal Church (SEC). The circumstances of this founding relationship after the American War of Independence – when it was considered undiplomatic for the Church of England to provide episcopal leadership for an independent ex-Colonial Church – provide a basic platform for the independence of both Churches from governing rule by the Church of England. Perhaps this is why both TEC and SEC are able to avoid the tension present within the… Read more »
Siblings responding to Kelvin: I think we get distracted if we don’t recognize that he’s not writing to those of us who recognize the importance of inclusion, including in language. He’s writing to (or at least about) those who understand “politically correct” as a derogatory and dismissive phrase. “Polite” may not seem the most potent word; but, then, we hardly use the word “politic” as an adjective these days. The point becomes, then, why would you want to use language in a way that brings pain to your sibling (whether in Christ or as a citizen)? Yet that is what… Read more »
CRS
6 years ago
“it was considered undiplomatic.”
It was illegal. One had to take an oath to the crown. A law needed to be passed and in time it was. Then the new TEC Bishops–from PA and NY–were consecrated in the CofE. Not the SEC.
(I would also wonder whether the 1549 language is robustly epiclesis language, as per Robertson’s essay. I thought the non jurors got that robust idea from the Orthodox).
rjb
6 years ago
At the risk of sounding excessively English, I wonder what exactly is wrong with ‘politeness’? Politeness is not simply a matter of using the right fork and addressing an archdeacon correctly at high table. Politeness means the thoughtful recognition of another person’s humanity in everyday social discourse. It means consideration for another’s feelings and imaginative identification with their situation. It is the very practical application of all those great big vague abstractions that get thrown around endlessly: justice, equality, and so on. There is much to be said for politeness, not just as the lubricant to social interactions but as… Read more »
Susannah Clark
6 years ago
rjb, I agree with you about the high value of politeness, but not as an etiquette to maintain a status quo and hierarchy in a position of assumed power and entitlement. “Politeness is not simply a matter of using the right fork and addressing an archdeacon correctly at high table.” I should hope not. It matters not a jot what fork you use, and I should address an archdeacon exactly the same way I would address anyone else, whether the Archbishop of Canterbury or the waitress bringing the food to the table. Justin should be sufficient. People who object to… Read more »
CRS
6 years ago
“somewhat romantic read.” Romantic indeed. Seabury was ardently loyalist. He wanted to be consecrated in the CofE and only went north for reasons of necessity. When White and Provoost were eventually elected to be Bishops, along with the candidate from VA who abstained, they went not to the SEC but to the CofE and were consecrated. Assurances were given by letter *from Seabury to the CofE* that the new Episcopal Church would conform to the standards of the CofE on creeds, authority of bishops vis-a-vis laity, etc. There are some very good histories of the SEC available. Seabury was virtually… Read more »
CRS
6 years ago
If memory serves, Seabury booked return passage to Halifax due to Nova Scotia’s reputation as a Tory redoubt, as he was concerned about re-entry into the States given his consecration as Bishop — an office virtually synonymous at the time with royalist claims. The epiclesis via SEC communion rite is everywhere an undoubted fact. At issue in my comment had to do with whether this was rooted in the 1549, as Robertson avers, or rather in the Orthodox liturgy. He makes it sound like it was an anti CofE move. I doubt that. Especially given subsequent concerns contra White and… Read more »
CRS
6 years ago
“highlighting one of those streams”
That is very generous. I thought his more obvious point was “there is one stream.” SEC to TEC.
Nothing you write here changes that.
The Robertson clan is McDonnaich, renamed by the English to ‘Son of Robert’ after the defeat at Blair Athol. My mother’s family are McConnaghays, buried in Calvin.
Our friend Robertson is zealous for “one stream” SEC-to-TEC. In that he misrepresents Samuel Seabury and his place in the origins of PECUSA.
Peaceful night in Canada, the true North strong and free.
As so often, I feel grateful for Kevin’s comments: this week, on inclusive language. I agree, that it boils down to thoughtfulness, kindness, respect. I guess, as a transgender female, I’m pretty sensitive to the ways careless language can erase or strip dignity from your identity. I feel the same way about gender in worship, liturgy, and public prayer. While I accept, pragmatically, that God is traditionally presented more often as ‘Father’ and ‘He’ and ‘Lord’ – and I can go along with that to an extent because I ‘get’ that it works for a lot of people – nevertheless,… Read more »
Ian Paul says a lot about the context of ordination training, about college finances and colleges vis a vis non-residential courses. He doesn’t appear to say very much about the *content*, and in particular the balance between formal biblical and theological instruction, informal sharing and discussion, and most importantly, the establishing of a solid discipline of prayer and liturgical formation, as part of a living and worshipping community. Having been trained more years ago than I care to remember, in a very traditional college, what I am most grateful for is the latter. Regular worship in the daily office and… Read more »
My own little religious life is founded on and framed by the daily disciplines of convent and its community. I have to agree with David: the daily routine of early morning prayer and contemplation, the offices, and time for lectio divina, along with mass/eucharist together – surely these are fundamentals for an aspirant setting out on ministry? A way of life as the priority, without which all the skills in the world may not be properly anchored. I was wondering on course content myself, as I read Ian’s call for some standardisation of theological training. There is so much to… Read more »
David Emmott, you seem to assume that non-residential training does not have contemplative prayer and the daily office at its heart. Many of us could not train full time in residential courses and we would not be accepted anyway as being over the age our diocese is prepared to invest in. However, it is contemplative prayer that has brought many of us to this point and our well established prayer practice and spiritual life is shared with our colleagues and our very different lives contribute greatly to our spiritual journey together.
The label ‘non-residential’ is no longer used by many courses. Our preferred label is part residential because we think the residential component is essential for reasons of formation.
Kelvin’s heart is in the right place and his intentions are very good, but to a certain extent he is swimming against the tide. Women have reclaimed words like actor, sailor, soldier – even minister – which were historically gendered and made them gender-inclusive. ‘Mankind’, I would argue is already, or is close to being, gender-inclusive too. In avoiding and replacing terms which have historically been gendered, he denies and hinders that process of reclamation. As I say, his intentions cannot be faulted, but I question whether he is really best serving the interests of equality, of women, in the… Read more »
I read David’s comments as a critique of Ian’s article on the ‘content’ of ministerial education and not on whether full time or part time students are more or less likely to engage with the essential and formational spiritual practices. All training for ministry should provide the space for the practical, the academic and the formational.
Rod: “Happy St Andrew’s Day”
Indeed – I have the haggis, neeps and tatties on the go.
And the Talisker to accompany.
I always love November 30th 🙂
Ministerial stegosaurus speaks (small brained, thick-skinned). I hear of courses where the biblical element’s been squeezed down to 20 hours of lectures and two assignments. Now I realise that (regrettably) a working knowledge of Coptic is no longer a feature of most of the sits. vac. in the Church Times, but wonder whether enough time’s given to encountering the fundamental strangeness of the biblical text. I recall finding so much of the material alien in language and thought-form, and I like to think it made me cautious about reading off from the texts that which chimed in with my take… Read more »
As someone involved in theological education/development either side of ordained/authorised ministry an additional concern regarding the space given to study of scripture in training is how much less knowledge of the bible people are starting courses with. They are starting from much further back than previous generations. In my tutorial group morning prayers at a theological college a few years ago the student asked to read the OT lectionary reading from Deuteronomy was spotted looking for ‘Deuteronomy’ in his Bible index.
On training for those of us doing one evening a week on the certificate course. We did introductions to: Church History, Christian Ethics, Spirituality, Theological Reflection, Old Testament and New Testament. Those of us doing it for fun also got a self directed project. The diploma course is currently thrashing its way through Bible in Context (Isaiah and Mark), So I reckon we’ve had quite a lot of scripture so far, but without having to learn Hebrew or Aramaic. The academic content is rigorous but rooted in what is needed for modern ministry – and that means finding out how… Read more »
” Regular worship in the daily office and eucharist and time set aside for contemplative/meditative prayer is at the heart of the priestly life. I wonder quite how people being trained on the many non-residential courses are now being formed in this way, and if not how? That is the heart of theology.” David Emmet – Well, David, with the new emphasis on ‘Bums on Seats’ and administrative efficiency these valuable elements – prayer and liturgical worship – would seem to have been left behind, to the lasting detriment of formation in activities that were once basic to a priestly… Read more »
Canon Chuck Robertson’s article on the connection between SEC and TEC outlines the critical factor of the ordination of the first TEC (PECUSA) Bishop by Bishops of the Scottish Episcopal Church (SEC). The circumstances of this founding relationship after the American War of Independence – when it was considered undiplomatic for the Church of England to provide episcopal leadership for an independent ex-Colonial Church – provide a basic platform for the independence of both Churches from governing rule by the Church of England. Perhaps this is why both TEC and SEC are able to avoid the tension present within the… Read more »
Siblings responding to Kelvin: I think we get distracted if we don’t recognize that he’s not writing to those of us who recognize the importance of inclusion, including in language. He’s writing to (or at least about) those who understand “politically correct” as a derogatory and dismissive phrase. “Polite” may not seem the most potent word; but, then, we hardly use the word “politic” as an adjective these days. The point becomes, then, why would you want to use language in a way that brings pain to your sibling (whether in Christ or as a citizen)? Yet that is what… Read more »
“it was considered undiplomatic.”
It was illegal. One had to take an oath to the crown. A law needed to be passed and in time it was. Then the new TEC Bishops–from PA and NY–were consecrated in the CofE. Not the SEC.
(I would also wonder whether the 1549 language is robustly epiclesis language, as per Robertson’s essay. I thought the non jurors got that robust idea from the Orthodox).
At the risk of sounding excessively English, I wonder what exactly is wrong with ‘politeness’? Politeness is not simply a matter of using the right fork and addressing an archdeacon correctly at high table. Politeness means the thoughtful recognition of another person’s humanity in everyday social discourse. It means consideration for another’s feelings and imaginative identification with their situation. It is the very practical application of all those great big vague abstractions that get thrown around endlessly: justice, equality, and so on. There is much to be said for politeness, not just as the lubricant to social interactions but as… Read more »
rjb, I agree with you about the high value of politeness, but not as an etiquette to maintain a status quo and hierarchy in a position of assumed power and entitlement. “Politeness is not simply a matter of using the right fork and addressing an archdeacon correctly at high table.” I should hope not. It matters not a jot what fork you use, and I should address an archdeacon exactly the same way I would address anyone else, whether the Archbishop of Canterbury or the waitress bringing the food to the table. Justin should be sufficient. People who object to… Read more »
“somewhat romantic read.” Romantic indeed. Seabury was ardently loyalist. He wanted to be consecrated in the CofE and only went north for reasons of necessity. When White and Provoost were eventually elected to be Bishops, along with the candidate from VA who abstained, they went not to the SEC but to the CofE and were consecrated. Assurances were given by letter *from Seabury to the CofE* that the new Episcopal Church would conform to the standards of the CofE on creeds, authority of bishops vis-a-vis laity, etc. There are some very good histories of the SEC available. Seabury was virtually… Read more »
If memory serves, Seabury booked return passage to Halifax due to Nova Scotia’s reputation as a Tory redoubt, as he was concerned about re-entry into the States given his consecration as Bishop — an office virtually synonymous at the time with royalist claims. The epiclesis via SEC communion rite is everywhere an undoubted fact. At issue in my comment had to do with whether this was rooted in the 1549, as Robertson avers, or rather in the Orthodox liturgy. He makes it sound like it was an anti CofE move. I doubt that. Especially given subsequent concerns contra White and… Read more »
“highlighting one of those streams”
That is very generous. I thought his more obvious point was “there is one stream.” SEC to TEC.
Nothing you write here changes that.
The Robertson clan is McDonnaich, renamed by the English to ‘Son of Robert’ after the defeat at Blair Athol. My mother’s family are McConnaghays, buried in Calvin.
Our friend Robertson is zealous for “one stream” SEC-to-TEC. In that he misrepresents Samuel Seabury and his place in the origins of PECUSA.
Peaceful night in Canada, the true North strong and free.
Inclusive Language and Politeness ?
https://www.newwaysministry.org/2017/12/08/bishop-calls-nativity-scene-two-st-josephs-attack-christian-faith/
Bishop feels entitled rudely to attack private citizens garden crib — people he doesn’t even know !