Abp Akinola’s rhetoric is based on false premises, and this means that no matter how noisily he makes his case it is doomed to fail — but not before it has done a great deal of damage to the Church and to gay Christians struggling to survive in what appears to be a climate of brutal homophobia. Just to sample one paragraph of his diatribe: “In Lambeth Palace, we met as Primates, we could not share in the Lord’s Supper. It is as that bad. As Primates and Archbishops, we could not share in the Lord’s Supper – the highest… Read more »
Ford Elms
17 years ago
“that position is for us un-African, inhuman, unscriptural” Inhuman. There now. “they thought that as Africans, we don’t know what we are doing;” Gives a bit of insight into what drives him, it ain’t just Scripture. “Our duty is to counsel people that are involve in it.” In between the times when their cell mates are beating them, they being in jail because we put them there. “Many who have this problem have been healed world over.” See, it’d be so much harder to argue against the man if he didn’t come out with this sort of nonsense. I guess… Read more »
`we have made several efforts in Lambeth Palace, and other places, at reconciliation,’
What, like ad-hominem attacks on other provinces (calling them `cancerous lumps’), or by instituting CANA, the parasitic organization to suck people out of TEC?
choirboyfromhell
17 years ago
Glad to see somebody’s use of the English language is worse than mine. But I’m not a “professional” news reporter.
So ++Akinolla & Co. are fearing we’ll send +VGR and Davis-Maciyalla as his acolyte to ordain new priests in Nigeria.
We could, but we won’t.
Reckon +Minns had to wear a bulletproof vest at his consecration?
Curtis
17 years ago
The interview with Akinola has infuriated me. I don’t intend to have my life or conscience dictated to by someone on the other side of the world who never met me. I’ll be part of no religion at all before I’ll be made a slave to his autocratic dictate.
Lapinbizarre
17 years ago
“Essentially, it is not a parliament; it is not a legislative body, it doesn’t have any constitutional power, it does not have power to take decision for anybody ….. the meeting is consultative and advisory.”
Thus spake Ab’p Akinola on the subject of Lambeth. Those who continually do cry “Lambeth 1:10”, please note.
What a report! _with the admission of people who practise homosexuals as priests and even bishops in the church_ There must be gay support groups all around the West who are training their members to become priests. The Churches must be finding these a great recruiting ground. We learn that the Lambeth Conference is to be a platform to assess the impact of this division. Obviously a few study groups will be set up. Has any Church sent homosexual priests to America? The report says: _who are opposed to the churches with homosexual priests in America_ Apparently this is of… Read more »
Davis Mac-Iyalla
17 years ago
Homosexual Priests: Nigerian Anglicans Will Not Succumb To Pressure From The West, Says Akinola +Akinola is the one putting pressures on the West to deny their belief and what they stand for. Homosexuality is never a choice at least not for me and my members. I am glad to read that what + Akinola has previously claimed is unknown in African and indeed Nigeria is now being acknowledged as common in Abuja. Those who are working on a split and separation should not forget that if indeed a split happens it will lead to a more liberal Anglican church to… Read more »
John Henry
17 years ago
++Peter Jasper Abuja really excels at blowing his own trumpet: “CANA doing very well even though it is also undergoing a very huge legal battle with ECUSA (the Episcopal Church in America). One of their leaders said they have set aside over eight billion dollars to fight us and I said that is very good, because I don’t even have eight naira to fight them. But I know it is God’s own battle and we will overcome. But we also continue to salute the courage of the people in America, who have seen that their spirituality is hampered by continuing… Read more »
Pat O'Neill
17 years ago
Not exactly the essence of unbiased, independent journalism, as evidenced by the very first sentence:
“The Primate of the Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion), Most Rev. Peter Akinola has manifested as a lone voice in the crusade against the attempt to re-write the scripture by some Anglicans in Europe and South America, with the admission of people who practise homosexuals as priests and even bishops in the church.”
The journalist is accepting Akinola’s premise–that those who oppose him are attempting to “re-write the scripture”–and working from that position from the outset.
NP
17 years ago
++Akinola is not the issue…….
he, like many others, in fact the majority in the AC, including many bishops and archbishops, wants the agreed positions of the church to be honoured by those would claim to be faithful members of the AC.
Lapinbizarre
17 years ago
“… the Lambeth Conference is the gathering of Anglican Bishops …. it is not a parliament; it is not a legislative body, it doesn’t have any constitutional power, it does not have power to take decision for anybody …. So the meeting is consultative and advisory.”
Now what was that about Lambeth 1:10?
matthewhunt
17 years ago
Still, it’s a sort of progress, isn’t it? Now he’s saying that there ARE gay Nigerians/Africans. That’s sort of toning down on the fascist notes. I’m serious. It is quite important. I know he’s still a fascist, vile homophobe who would put Jesus off Christianity if he started thinking about it critically on an off day, but we need to hold onto the fact that he has acknowledged that lgbtq people are everywhere. And his Oh, so holy presence has not been able to make them all go ‘swumph’ up in a pink cloud with glitter and choirs of campest… Read more »
Brian MacIntyre
17 years ago
To state what has been stated before – no one in the West has been pressuring Nigeria to ordain gay priests. ++Akinola has only received a few light wrist slaps for supporting viciously inhuman legislation, for procedural violations (border crossings), and for uncharitably absenting himself from the Lord’s Table. The pressure, in fact, has all been in the other direction. (Did you notice, we’ve all been excommunicated by him? When did the ABC assign him that power? “… [I]t means that the other group has been ex-communicated as it were or ostracised [sic] and you are not in fellowship with… Read more »
“In Lambeth Palace, we met as Primates, we could not share in the Lord’s Supper. It is as that bad. As Primates and Archbishops, we could not share in the Lord’s Supper – the highest and most important service in our church.”
Yes he could have shared in the Lord’s Supper. It was not that they “could not” but, rather, that they chose not to share in the Lord’s Supper. It was their free choice. The Table was and always is open to Abp. Peter and his followers.
Lois Keen
This is a fascinating comment for several points. First, I’m fascinated by the great length Archbishop Akinola goes to in explaining the limitations of Lambeth Conferences, and the limitations of Lambeth’s authority in speaking to autonomous provinces. Second, it becomes clear that the Archbishop’s concern is as much about American “cultural imperialism” as it is about the actions of the Episcopal Church. To write off the discussions of the past generation within the Episcopal Church as capitulation to a permissive culture is disingenuous at best, since I know he’s not simply ignorant. Third, and as a corollary, the concept of… Read more »
Chris
17 years ago
NP said, “he, like many others, in fact the majority in the AC, including many bishops and archbishops, wants the agreed positions of the church to be honoured by those would claim to be faithful members of the AC.” Exactly! Why to prog-libs even care about retaining Anglicanism? Their actions show little to no respect for the tradition when they reject Scripture and the formularies, qualify the creeds and willingly take actions that go against the position of the global Communion as expressed in decades of Lambeth resolutions. Cripes, the TEC primate is an outright pluralist! Lambeth I.10 reaffirms the… Read more »
Walt
17 years ago
I am amazed by the reference to the full acceptance of gays as “inhuman”? The first step to genocide is to reduce another group to non-human status. That statement really scares me. Doubly so that it came from an archbishop. Frightening!
Brian MacIntyre
17 years ago
NP, ++Akinola may not be your issue, but you may have noticed, not everyone agrees with you. The moderator chose to provide a link to an interview with him, and some of us would like to give our thoughts on it. Thank you so much for respecting our right to do so without being confronted with your almost identically worded objections every fifth post or so.
Davis said: “Those who are working on a split and separation should not forget that if indeed a split happens it will lead to a more liberal Anglican church to start in countries like Nigeria.” In Canada and the US, the Church has taken legal action against those who propose to take the property with them when they leave. When “liberals” in Nigeria leave the Akinolist Communion, I hope that they will resist the temptation to try and take the property with them. Of course, even if they did, my Lord of Abuja would not need to sue them for… Read more »
L Roberts
17 years ago
‘Release your mind from Mental Slavery….’
Bob Marley classic song
“These people are not just ordinary Americans; they are leaders and well recognised people – who is who in Washington DC. So, we are encouraged and strengthened by what we see.” Akinola I’ll tell ya, he’s barking up the wrong sacred cow if he thinks he impressing anyone with “namedropping” this crowd of greedy murderous well/recognised persecuting pillagers and biggest liars on the earth . I truly think the Minns feedback (gush,gush) is going to blowup on +Akinola, that is, if Akinola is capable of facing the reality of the hideous and immoral mess he has made for his fellow… Read more »
Akinola is correct. He will not be in communion with the TEC. It is an anathema for everything he has stood for. There are others in the same ilk. One thing I will give Akinola is that he is honest. There others who have worked longer, harder and more extensively on this issue than himself, but have a less public profile. God knows who they are, what they have done, where, when, how and why. Each will be dealt with appropriately. The thing to do is to build each communion as healthily as possible. There might be a need to… Read more »
JCF
17 years ago
In reading the words of ++Akinola, I’m reminded of the 12-Step saying:
“Resentment is like drinking poison, but expecting someone ELSE to die.”
No wonder ++Akinola never endorsed “the Listening Process”. Listening might lead to working out conflicts . . . and he doesn’t WANT to work anything out. He wants to HANG ONTO HIS RESENTMENT(S), at all costs. They are what give his life meaning.
++Akinola’s resentments, and not Christ, are what he truly gives *highest worth* to (worships).
Brian MacIntyre
17 years ago
“Lambeth I.10 reaffirms the orthodox view of human sexuality no less than four times and while only calling for the church to listen (no process is established!) once.” Got you… So the rhythm here would be “Leviticus! Leviticus! Leviticus! Leviticus! Listen… Leviticus! Leviticus! Leviticus! Leviticus! Listen…” Lambeth 1.10 was a triumph for the conservative wing of the church to be sure – a seemingly successful attempt to close down the discussion of sexual ethics that had been going on for several decades, engineered by people having difficulty coping with relatively new ideas (“The Lord doesn’t mind if you’re gay, just… Read more »
Ford Elms
17 years ago
“For they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”
Perhaps one of the most hilarious of the “new hymns.” How often have I heard people say they stopped going to church because of the lie of this hymn! And is it not also interesting that, far from having disobeyed Lambeth statements, TEC is now being demonized for actually DOING what successive Lambeth conferences have asked us all to do, and by those who didn’t obey at that?
“These people are not just ordinary Americans; they are leaders and well recognised people – who is who in Washington DC. So, we are encouraged and strengthened by what we see.” Akinola
Oh, I didn’t notice or *recognize* them being present at the +Minns knighting/enthronement (or whatever it was) at that rented hall in Virgina…the fading “who’s who” Akinola groupies must have had conflicting Grand Jury/Senate and/or upcoming Impeachment hearings to get “prepared” for.
NP
17 years ago
choirboy (and Malcolm from yesterday)…..you know that VGR’s bulletproof vest was not necessary…..nobody attacked! All you are saying is that some were paranoid enough to make him wear protection…. Brian…yes, some here want to make ++Akinola the issue, I know, but I am more concerned with the AC and you may have noticed that the Windsor Report and the Tanzania Communinque were not responses to ++Akinola tearing the fabric of the Communion…..but do avoid the main issues if you like, I do not really mind as the AC is at last making progress towards a united Communion – bring on… Read more »
NP, because +Gene Robinson wasn’t attacked in the course of his consecration service, that proves that the bullet-proof vest wasn’t necessary? You think +Gene’s security advisers, choirboy and Malcolm are guilty of being paranoid, rather than accurate and realistic about the threats to +Gene’s life 3 years ago? I think that is a totally reprehensible thought, and you should be ashamed of allowing the idea to enter your head. You post continually to TA as if you alone occupy the moral and theological high ground, but write prejudice. Davis Mac-Iyalla has received death threats by email and once by a… Read more »
NP
17 years ago
Colin – I also take people’s safety seriously but the point is that VGR was not attacked so why keep on talking about the precautions he took, on advice from others? If he had been attacked, ++Akinola and +Duncan and all sane people in the AC would have been disgusted by the thought and the action – but nobody (thank GOD!) did attack him. Why keep on mentioning his bullet-proof vest?? In our discussion in the AC, it is really not relevant that a few mad people made threats of violence…..unless people want to create the impression that those threats… Read more »
Stephen De Silva
17 years ago
NP,
I’m not a regular commenter on here and not one of your usual sparring partners – but your comments about paranoia and unnecesary bulletproof vests leave me feeling sick and tearful at your ignorance.
Hate crime is an appalling fact of life – gun crime in the USA is an appalling fact of life. Risk assessments are made all the time and public figures have to act on them.
You suggest others’ comments are out of proportion to reality? Look closer to home on that one.
NP
17 years ago
Stephen – if you read what I say ….I am not diminishing the real violence that some face. More than that, I oppose that violence and would have been outraged if anyone hurt VGR (I still would be) I am questioning why, in the AC debate, some people keep on bringing up threats (which were not acted upon)…..I am asking if this is to try and smear the conservative position on Lambeth 1.10 even though there is no proof that the threats come from anybody even in the AC. To be clear…..if someone does not support VGR as a bishop… Read more »
C.B.
17 years ago
“These people are not just ordinary Americans; they are leaders and well recognised people – who is who in Washington DC. So, we are encouraged and strengthened by what we see.” Akinola Well I wasn’t going to bring it up, but seeing as Akinola did – the unspoken reason that Falls Church and Truro must take the property with them is because without the property they do not have the necessary barrings for those who they like to count amongst their number. I grew up in D.C. I know this group. This group is very self-important. They are not going… Read more »
New definition of paranoia: if we didn’t attack you today, that means we have never attacked you in the past nor never intend to attack you in the future. If we fail in attempting your murder, then we never threatened to murder you. If we can drive you insane, then we don’t have to worry about murdering you… If you resort to sedatives or alcohol to cope with the non-existent threats or insults that may or may not have happened in the past, that merely proves you are from the “evil one”. So it’s okay that we break up your… Read more »
Ford Elms
17 years ago
“if someone does not support VGR as a bishop it does NOT follow that they support threats of violence against him or anyone else.” NP, The rhetoric coming from the people who “do not support VGR” is absolutely venomous. We have seen here on TA this week an interview with +Akinola in which he uses words like “inhuman” to describe anything that is friendly to gay people, and couple those words with a pan-African politics that gives ready voice to justifiable African resentment over the evils of colonialism, making the West the enemy and he and his people the beleaguered… Read more »
NP
17 years ago
Ford – yes, I do think he should be more careful with his words but as you say he does not call for violence.
You say his supporters have called for violence – who?
choirboyfromhell
17 years ago
Gee NP, my last flight I took didn’t get bombed, so I guess I didn’t need to go through security.
Erika Baker
17 years ago
“You say his supporters have called for violence – who?”
The guy who delivered a death threat to Davis, for one.
“…if someone does not support VGR as a bishop it does NOT follow that they support threats of violence against him or anyone else.”
2 different things, I am afraid.
That it makes you incomfortable bringing it up, is reason enough. This because deep down you k n o w that your “conservative position on Lambeth 1998 I:10 does not add up.
Which means that you need to challenge your “conservative position on Lambeth 1998 I:10” for your own good and repent, NP.
Repent.
drdanfee
17 years ago
One is glad to have the lowest common denominator showed off in public, so baldly: biblical sexual ethics=trash talking queer folks=exclusive straight con-evo believer rights to the kingdom feast. I’ll change my sexual orientation, maybe, six years after the good archbishop changes his, maybe. Thank you very, very, very much. No matter how often more sophisticated narratives try to spin us away from this ground framing equation, claiming or at least hinting at all sorts of depths and subtleties, we always get a return to this basic plumb line of disgust, fear, and self-protection of exclusive straight privileges in church… Read more »
I try not to respond to NP here but I do, as is evident. I noticed back in March (I was archiving) that Simon Sarmiento told people here not to refer to NP as a troll, though this has happened since, and I don’t think he is. However, he reminds me that there is not simply a “mind” of the communion, but that we have minds, and that the Anglican Church has rarely treated all its documents in the literalistic way he does and demands simply because of the theology which takes place that even, indeed, at times contradicts these… Read more »
Charlotte
17 years ago
On a slightly different note: the liberals will of course not be leaving the Church of Nigeria. There is no need for them to do so. There will be a brief contremps around the time of the Lambeth Conference, in which the present Archbishop will no doubt be involved, and then it will be time for him to retire. Replacing him might be the newly installed Six Preacher, Akinola’s “counterpart” or “counterweight,” according to Ruth Gledhill. Or it might be someone else. In any case, Peter Akinola cannot legally remain Archbishop of All Nigeria after his retirement date, which is… Read more »
Ford Elms
17 years ago
NP, Look at the “who is who” in Washington he so proudly claims as backing him. Look at their politics. Look at their funding. Look at the IRD. Follow the money. At the end of the trail, you will find people who advocate recriminalizing homosexuality, and one who advocates a return to the punishment defined under the Mosaic Law: stoning. Whatever your opinions on gay people, these are your bedfellows, and they are not as lenient even as you. Besides, what do you think will be the fate of the homosexuals in Nigeria who get sent to jail as a… Read more »
NP
17 years ago
Ford – I think those comments from ++Akinola about “who’s who” are just embarassing…..with you on that! Pluralist – the reason I come to TA is to talk and listen to those with whom I do not disagree. I may not agree but that does not mean I do not listen to what people say. My hope is that some see what I am saying and understand the majority AC position better…and even move to it. Some will, like you, be realising that those soft evos who have not left the AC are not for compromising on the presenting issue… Read more »
Humm. More cold feet? Archbishop Drexel Gomez is saying: _his province believes that it is “better to be at the table,” Gomez said: “My fear is that, if traditional people don’t turn up (at Lambeth), the liberals in the Communion will change Anglicanism and will do so without blinking an eyelid.”_ http://www.challengeonline.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=149 In other words, he is saying, turn up at Lambeth or some positions could be changed… It is worth reading; he sees first moves happening at end of September 2007, which must be right, but then these African folks would not turn up at Lambeth, would they? Welcome… Read more »
cryptogram (John Marshall)
17 years ago
It is interesting to notice that Anglican Mainstream has not yet (1630) referred to, let alone linked to, this interview with Akinola. I wonder why.
NP
17 years ago
crypto – maybe because Anglican Mainstream is not the tool of ++Akinola (people on TA listen to him much more than conservatives outside Nigeria…..we are not led by him!)
Pluralist – I am with ++Gomez……we must all turn up and vote to define what the AC is going to be going forward. However, I will not be surprised to see the ABC withdrawing invitations to TEC bishops to ensure the participation of Nigeria, Kenya and Uganda….depends on what TEC says at the end of September
Abp Akinola’s rhetoric is based on false premises, and this means that no matter how noisily he makes his case it is doomed to fail — but not before it has done a great deal of damage to the Church and to gay Christians struggling to survive in what appears to be a climate of brutal homophobia. Just to sample one paragraph of his diatribe: “In Lambeth Palace, we met as Primates, we could not share in the Lord’s Supper. It is as that bad. As Primates and Archbishops, we could not share in the Lord’s Supper – the highest… Read more »
“that position is for us un-African, inhuman, unscriptural” Inhuman. There now. “they thought that as Africans, we don’t know what we are doing;” Gives a bit of insight into what drives him, it ain’t just Scripture. “Our duty is to counsel people that are involve in it.” In between the times when their cell mates are beating them, they being in jail because we put them there. “Many who have this problem have been healed world over.” See, it’d be so much harder to argue against the man if he didn’t come out with this sort of nonsense. I guess… Read more »
`we have made several efforts in Lambeth Palace, and other places, at reconciliation,’
What, like ad-hominem attacks on other provinces (calling them `cancerous lumps’), or by instituting CANA, the parasitic organization to suck people out of TEC?
Glad to see somebody’s use of the English language is worse than mine. But I’m not a “professional” news reporter.
So ++Akinolla & Co. are fearing we’ll send +VGR and Davis-Maciyalla as his acolyte to ordain new priests in Nigeria.
We could, but we won’t.
Reckon +Minns had to wear a bulletproof vest at his consecration?
The interview with Akinola has infuriated me. I don’t intend to have my life or conscience dictated to by someone on the other side of the world who never met me. I’ll be part of no religion at all before I’ll be made a slave to his autocratic dictate.
“Essentially, it is not a parliament; it is not a legislative body, it doesn’t have any constitutional power, it does not have power to take decision for anybody ….. the meeting is consultative and advisory.”
Thus spake Ab’p Akinola on the subject of Lambeth. Those who continually do cry “Lambeth 1:10”, please note.
What a report! _with the admission of people who practise homosexuals as priests and even bishops in the church_ There must be gay support groups all around the West who are training their members to become priests. The Churches must be finding these a great recruiting ground. We learn that the Lambeth Conference is to be a platform to assess the impact of this division. Obviously a few study groups will be set up. Has any Church sent homosexual priests to America? The report says: _who are opposed to the churches with homosexual priests in America_ Apparently this is of… Read more »
Homosexual Priests: Nigerian Anglicans Will Not Succumb To Pressure From The West, Says Akinola +Akinola is the one putting pressures on the West to deny their belief and what they stand for. Homosexuality is never a choice at least not for me and my members. I am glad to read that what + Akinola has previously claimed is unknown in African and indeed Nigeria is now being acknowledged as common in Abuja. Those who are working on a split and separation should not forget that if indeed a split happens it will lead to a more liberal Anglican church to… Read more »
++Peter Jasper Abuja really excels at blowing his own trumpet: “CANA doing very well even though it is also undergoing a very huge legal battle with ECUSA (the Episcopal Church in America). One of their leaders said they have set aside over eight billion dollars to fight us and I said that is very good, because I don’t even have eight naira to fight them. But I know it is God’s own battle and we will overcome. But we also continue to salute the courage of the people in America, who have seen that their spirituality is hampered by continuing… Read more »
Not exactly the essence of unbiased, independent journalism, as evidenced by the very first sentence:
“The Primate of the Church of Nigeria (Anglican Communion), Most Rev. Peter Akinola has manifested as a lone voice in the crusade against the attempt to re-write the scripture by some Anglicans in Europe and South America, with the admission of people who practise homosexuals as priests and even bishops in the church.”
The journalist is accepting Akinola’s premise–that those who oppose him are attempting to “re-write the scripture”–and working from that position from the outset.
++Akinola is not the issue…….
he, like many others, in fact the majority in the AC, including many bishops and archbishops, wants the agreed positions of the church to be honoured by those would claim to be faithful members of the AC.
“… the Lambeth Conference is the gathering of Anglican Bishops …. it is not a parliament; it is not a legislative body, it doesn’t have any constitutional power, it does not have power to take decision for anybody …. So the meeting is consultative and advisory.”
Now what was that about Lambeth 1:10?
Still, it’s a sort of progress, isn’t it? Now he’s saying that there ARE gay Nigerians/Africans. That’s sort of toning down on the fascist notes. I’m serious. It is quite important. I know he’s still a fascist, vile homophobe who would put Jesus off Christianity if he started thinking about it critically on an off day, but we need to hold onto the fact that he has acknowledged that lgbtq people are everywhere. And his Oh, so holy presence has not been able to make them all go ‘swumph’ up in a pink cloud with glitter and choirs of campest… Read more »
To state what has been stated before – no one in the West has been pressuring Nigeria to ordain gay priests. ++Akinola has only received a few light wrist slaps for supporting viciously inhuman legislation, for procedural violations (border crossings), and for uncharitably absenting himself from the Lord’s Table. The pressure, in fact, has all been in the other direction. (Did you notice, we’ve all been excommunicated by him? When did the ABC assign him that power? “… [I]t means that the other group has been ex-communicated as it were or ostracised [sic] and you are not in fellowship with… Read more »
“In Lambeth Palace, we met as Primates, we could not share in the Lord’s Supper. It is as that bad. As Primates and Archbishops, we could not share in the Lord’s Supper – the highest and most important service in our church.”
Yes he could have shared in the Lord’s Supper. It was not that they “could not” but, rather, that they chose not to share in the Lord’s Supper. It was their free choice. The Table was and always is open to Abp. Peter and his followers.
Lois Keen
This is a fascinating comment for several points. First, I’m fascinated by the great length Archbishop Akinola goes to in explaining the limitations of Lambeth Conferences, and the limitations of Lambeth’s authority in speaking to autonomous provinces. Second, it becomes clear that the Archbishop’s concern is as much about American “cultural imperialism” as it is about the actions of the Episcopal Church. To write off the discussions of the past generation within the Episcopal Church as capitulation to a permissive culture is disingenuous at best, since I know he’s not simply ignorant. Third, and as a corollary, the concept of… Read more »
NP said, “he, like many others, in fact the majority in the AC, including many bishops and archbishops, wants the agreed positions of the church to be honoured by those would claim to be faithful members of the AC.” Exactly! Why to prog-libs even care about retaining Anglicanism? Their actions show little to no respect for the tradition when they reject Scripture and the formularies, qualify the creeds and willingly take actions that go against the position of the global Communion as expressed in decades of Lambeth resolutions. Cripes, the TEC primate is an outright pluralist! Lambeth I.10 reaffirms the… Read more »
I am amazed by the reference to the full acceptance of gays as “inhuman”? The first step to genocide is to reduce another group to non-human status. That statement really scares me. Doubly so that it came from an archbishop. Frightening!
NP, ++Akinola may not be your issue, but you may have noticed, not everyone agrees with you. The moderator chose to provide a link to an interview with him, and some of us would like to give our thoughts on it. Thank you so much for respecting our right to do so without being confronted with your almost identically worded objections every fifth post or so.
NP wrote: “++Akinola is not the issue…….”
You keep repeating that.
Davis said: “Those who are working on a split and separation should not forget that if indeed a split happens it will lead to a more liberal Anglican church to start in countries like Nigeria.” In Canada and the US, the Church has taken legal action against those who propose to take the property with them when they leave. When “liberals” in Nigeria leave the Akinolist Communion, I hope that they will resist the temptation to try and take the property with them. Of course, even if they did, my Lord of Abuja would not need to sue them for… Read more »
‘Release your mind from Mental Slavery….’
Bob Marley classic song
“These people are not just ordinary Americans; they are leaders and well recognised people – who is who in Washington DC. So, we are encouraged and strengthened by what we see.” Akinola I’ll tell ya, he’s barking up the wrong sacred cow if he thinks he impressing anyone with “namedropping” this crowd of greedy murderous well/recognised persecuting pillagers and biggest liars on the earth . I truly think the Minns feedback (gush,gush) is going to blowup on +Akinola, that is, if Akinola is capable of facing the reality of the hideous and immoral mess he has made for his fellow… Read more »
Akinola is correct. He will not be in communion with the TEC. It is an anathema for everything he has stood for. There are others in the same ilk. One thing I will give Akinola is that he is honest. There others who have worked longer, harder and more extensively on this issue than himself, but have a less public profile. God knows who they are, what they have done, where, when, how and why. Each will be dealt with appropriately. The thing to do is to build each communion as healthily as possible. There might be a need to… Read more »
In reading the words of ++Akinola, I’m reminded of the 12-Step saying:
“Resentment is like drinking poison, but expecting someone ELSE to die.”
No wonder ++Akinola never endorsed “the Listening Process”. Listening might lead to working out conflicts . . . and he doesn’t WANT to work anything out. He wants to HANG ONTO HIS RESENTMENT(S), at all costs. They are what give his life meaning.
++Akinola’s resentments, and not Christ, are what he truly gives *highest worth* to (worships).
“Lambeth I.10 reaffirms the orthodox view of human sexuality no less than four times and while only calling for the church to listen (no process is established!) once.” Got you… So the rhythm here would be “Leviticus! Leviticus! Leviticus! Leviticus! Listen… Leviticus! Leviticus! Leviticus! Leviticus! Listen…” Lambeth 1.10 was a triumph for the conservative wing of the church to be sure – a seemingly successful attempt to close down the discussion of sexual ethics that had been going on for several decades, engineered by people having difficulty coping with relatively new ideas (“The Lord doesn’t mind if you’re gay, just… Read more »
“For they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”
Perhaps one of the most hilarious of the “new hymns.” How often have I heard people say they stopped going to church because of the lie of this hymn! And is it not also interesting that, far from having disobeyed Lambeth statements, TEC is now being demonized for actually DOING what successive Lambeth conferences have asked us all to do, and by those who didn’t obey at that?
_Cripes, the TEC primate is an outright pluralist!_
I’ve been clericalised and promoted!
I understand that “Cripes” is an alternative exclamation to Christ.
Part two:
“These people are not just ordinary Americans; they are leaders and well recognised people – who is who in Washington DC. So, we are encouraged and strengthened by what we see.” Akinola
Oh, I didn’t notice or *recognize* them being present at the +Minns knighting/enthronement (or whatever it was) at that rented hall in Virgina…the fading “who’s who” Akinola groupies must have had conflicting Grand Jury/Senate and/or upcoming Impeachment hearings to get “prepared” for.
choirboy (and Malcolm from yesterday)…..you know that VGR’s bulletproof vest was not necessary…..nobody attacked! All you are saying is that some were paranoid enough to make him wear protection…. Brian…yes, some here want to make ++Akinola the issue, I know, but I am more concerned with the AC and you may have noticed that the Windsor Report and the Tanzania Communinque were not responses to ++Akinola tearing the fabric of the Communion…..but do avoid the main issues if you like, I do not really mind as the AC is at last making progress towards a united Communion – bring on… Read more »
“… the Windsor Report and the Tanzania Communinque were not responses to ++Akinola tearing the fabric of the Communion…”
They were meant to stop him doing it.
NP, because +Gene Robinson wasn’t attacked in the course of his consecration service, that proves that the bullet-proof vest wasn’t necessary? You think +Gene’s security advisers, choirboy and Malcolm are guilty of being paranoid, rather than accurate and realistic about the threats to +Gene’s life 3 years ago? I think that is a totally reprehensible thought, and you should be ashamed of allowing the idea to enter your head. You post continually to TA as if you alone occupy the moral and theological high ground, but write prejudice. Davis Mac-Iyalla has received death threats by email and once by a… Read more »
Colin – I also take people’s safety seriously but the point is that VGR was not attacked so why keep on talking about the precautions he took, on advice from others? If he had been attacked, ++Akinola and +Duncan and all sane people in the AC would have been disgusted by the thought and the action – but nobody (thank GOD!) did attack him. Why keep on mentioning his bullet-proof vest?? In our discussion in the AC, it is really not relevant that a few mad people made threats of violence…..unless people want to create the impression that those threats… Read more »
NP,
I’m not a regular commenter on here and not one of your usual sparring partners – but your comments about paranoia and unnecesary bulletproof vests leave me feeling sick and tearful at your ignorance.
Hate crime is an appalling fact of life – gun crime in the USA is an appalling fact of life. Risk assessments are made all the time and public figures have to act on them.
You suggest others’ comments are out of proportion to reality? Look closer to home on that one.
Stephen – if you read what I say ….I am not diminishing the real violence that some face. More than that, I oppose that violence and would have been outraged if anyone hurt VGR (I still would be) I am questioning why, in the AC debate, some people keep on bringing up threats (which were not acted upon)…..I am asking if this is to try and smear the conservative position on Lambeth 1.10 even though there is no proof that the threats come from anybody even in the AC. To be clear…..if someone does not support VGR as a bishop… Read more »
“These people are not just ordinary Americans; they are leaders and well recognised people – who is who in Washington DC. So, we are encouraged and strengthened by what we see.” Akinola Well I wasn’t going to bring it up, but seeing as Akinola did – the unspoken reason that Falls Church and Truro must take the property with them is because without the property they do not have the necessary barrings for those who they like to count amongst their number. I grew up in D.C. I know this group. This group is very self-important. They are not going… Read more »
New definition of paranoia: if we didn’t attack you today, that means we have never attacked you in the past nor never intend to attack you in the future. If we fail in attempting your murder, then we never threatened to murder you. If we can drive you insane, then we don’t have to worry about murdering you… If you resort to sedatives or alcohol to cope with the non-existent threats or insults that may or may not have happened in the past, that merely proves you are from the “evil one”. So it’s okay that we break up your… Read more »
“if someone does not support VGR as a bishop it does NOT follow that they support threats of violence against him or anyone else.” NP, The rhetoric coming from the people who “do not support VGR” is absolutely venomous. We have seen here on TA this week an interview with +Akinola in which he uses words like “inhuman” to describe anything that is friendly to gay people, and couple those words with a pan-African politics that gives ready voice to justifiable African resentment over the evils of colonialism, making the West the enemy and he and his people the beleaguered… Read more »
Ford – yes, I do think he should be more careful with his words but as you say he does not call for violence.
You say his supporters have called for violence – who?
Gee NP, my last flight I took didn’t get bombed, so I guess I didn’t need to go through security.
“You say his supporters have called for violence – who?”
The guy who delivered a death threat to Davis, for one.
“…if someone does not support VGR as a bishop it does NOT follow that they support threats of violence against him or anyone else.”
2 different things, I am afraid.
That it makes you incomfortable bringing it up, is reason enough. This because deep down you k n o w that your “conservative position on Lambeth 1998 I:10 does not add up.
Which means that you need to challenge your “conservative position on Lambeth 1998 I:10” for your own good and repent, NP.
Repent.
One is glad to have the lowest common denominator showed off in public, so baldly: biblical sexual ethics=trash talking queer folks=exclusive straight con-evo believer rights to the kingdom feast. I’ll change my sexual orientation, maybe, six years after the good archbishop changes his, maybe. Thank you very, very, very much. No matter how often more sophisticated narratives try to spin us away from this ground framing equation, claiming or at least hinting at all sorts of depths and subtleties, we always get a return to this basic plumb line of disgust, fear, and self-protection of exclusive straight privileges in church… Read more »
I try not to respond to NP here but I do, as is evident. I noticed back in March (I was archiving) that Simon Sarmiento told people here not to refer to NP as a troll, though this has happened since, and I don’t think he is. However, he reminds me that there is not simply a “mind” of the communion, but that we have minds, and that the Anglican Church has rarely treated all its documents in the literalistic way he does and demands simply because of the theology which takes place that even, indeed, at times contradicts these… Read more »
On a slightly different note: the liberals will of course not be leaving the Church of Nigeria. There is no need for them to do so. There will be a brief contremps around the time of the Lambeth Conference, in which the present Archbishop will no doubt be involved, and then it will be time for him to retire. Replacing him might be the newly installed Six Preacher, Akinola’s “counterpart” or “counterweight,” according to Ruth Gledhill. Or it might be someone else. In any case, Peter Akinola cannot legally remain Archbishop of All Nigeria after his retirement date, which is… Read more »
NP, Look at the “who is who” in Washington he so proudly claims as backing him. Look at their politics. Look at their funding. Look at the IRD. Follow the money. At the end of the trail, you will find people who advocate recriminalizing homosexuality, and one who advocates a return to the punishment defined under the Mosaic Law: stoning. Whatever your opinions on gay people, these are your bedfellows, and they are not as lenient even as you. Besides, what do you think will be the fate of the homosexuals in Nigeria who get sent to jail as a… Read more »
Ford – I think those comments from ++Akinola about “who’s who” are just embarassing…..with you on that! Pluralist – the reason I come to TA is to talk and listen to those with whom I do not disagree. I may not agree but that does not mean I do not listen to what people say. My hope is that some see what I am saying and understand the majority AC position better…and even move to it. Some will, like you, be realising that those soft evos who have not left the AC are not for compromising on the presenting issue… Read more »
Humm. More cold feet? Archbishop Drexel Gomez is saying: _his province believes that it is “better to be at the table,” Gomez said: “My fear is that, if traditional people don’t turn up (at Lambeth), the liberals in the Communion will change Anglicanism and will do so without blinking an eyelid.”_ http://www.challengeonline.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=149 In other words, he is saying, turn up at Lambeth or some positions could be changed… It is worth reading; he sees first moves happening at end of September 2007, which must be right, but then these African folks would not turn up at Lambeth, would they? Welcome… Read more »
It is interesting to notice that Anglican Mainstream has not yet (1630) referred to, let alone linked to, this interview with Akinola. I wonder why.
crypto – maybe because Anglican Mainstream is not the tool of ++Akinola (people on TA listen to him much more than conservatives outside Nigeria…..we are not led by him!)
Pluralist – I am with ++Gomez……we must all turn up and vote to define what the AC is going to be going forward. However, I will not be surprised to see the ABC withdrawing invitations to TEC bishops to ensure the participation of Nigeria, Kenya and Uganda….depends on what TEC says at the end of September