Updated Monday evening
As the Archbishop of Canterbury prepares to go to the USA and visit New Orleans, there is a website established by the Diocese of Louisiana devoted specifically to his visit. (h/t DL)
There are also various press reports about what may happen next.
Christopher Landau reports for the BBC What future for Anglicanism?
Jonathan Wynne-Jones reports for the Sunday Telegraph Archbishop fears split over gay clergy
Robert Barr reports for the Associated Press Anglican Leader in U.S. Over Gay Bishop
Neela Banerjee reports for the New York Times Episcopal Church Faces Deadline on Gay Issues
Daniel Burke reports for Religion News Service Episcopal Church faces same-sex deadline
Updated links
The Sunday programme on BBC radio had an item about this:
Go here (6 minutes long).
Archbishop Peter Akinola, and journalist Stephen Bates are interviewed.
For a longer version of the Peter Akinola interview go here ( URL valid this week only).
The Episcopal News Service has a new monthly video programme. The first programme, available to watch here, has fascinating material about the situation in Louisiana and Mississippi following Katrina.
ENS also has a report on the responses made across the Episcopal Church to “a study document aimed at helping the House of Bishops respond to the requests made to them by the Primates of the Anglican Communion”: One third of dioceses respond to Bishops’ communiqué study document.
The Living Church reports on two other aspects:
Modified Primatial Vicar Plan to Be Proposed to Bishops
Bishop Henderson Withdraws Report Endorsement; Doug LeBlanc has a succinct summary of this report here.
I find all this reporting highly dubious since the schism, split, ‘walking apart’ is already de facto. Many provinces in Africa have relegated and reduced themselves to the status of a sect by virtue of ordaining episcopi vagans.
Yeah, right, Neil……so you think the ABC is going to visit with the TEC(USA) HOB, hear them continue to refuse to give the assurances repeatedly requested by ALL the Primates of the AC (eg Dromantine/ TWR/ Tanzania) ….. and then say that those who will not accept TEC(USA) ignoring lots of scripture & these repeated requests are the ones who can leave if they want??? Even those who do not always agree with him say the ABC is an intelligent man – he ain’t going over to the US to ask the TEC(USA) HOB to comply with the Primates repeated… Read more »
Big Pete’s demeanor in the BBC interview is very telling. He’s hateful. He’s full of wrath. What does the scripture say about the wrath of man NP? Something about it doesn’t fulfill the righteousness of God?
It’s predictable enough. There’s a screaming anger that’s going to blindly act out of ill informed bigotry. Whatever behavior modification, institutional program or covenanted community of the orthodox comes out of this, the base motive is observable right there in Akinola’s rant. Not a good basis for action. Wouldn’t you say NP?
Interesting, isn’t it, that a few Global South primates see a deadline, along with the Common Cause partners (significant overlap notwithstanding), and some members of the press, when the Archbishop of Canterbury does not. I think, NP, that the Archbishop is playing hard brinksmanship. He is determined to be the last person to leave the table, and, while he has the table at least, not to change the rules of the game. That seems to be his way of retaining as much as possible of “the-Anglican-Communion-as-we-have-known-it.” Despairing of persuading him to change the rules, some folks speak of a deadline,… Read more »
SPONG!!!
NP,
What will you have after TEC is kicked out in October?
As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch have erred: so also the Church of Rome hath erred. And mayhap the Episcopal Church in the United States hath also erred.
But it is Nigeria, Uganda, Rwanda, Kenya and Souther Cone who have established themselves as scismatics by the ordination of, as Neil so properly put it, episcopi vagans.
Oh dear, NP has returned with his/her “In the name of the Dromantine, and of the Windsor Report, and of the unholy Tanzania, Amen.” By the way, NP, Bishop Spong is not at all the issue, any more than some of the more radical fundamentalists on the fringe of the Anglcian Communion would be the issue. There are loonies on the extreme left, just as there are loonies on the extreme right. But, for all his faults of logic and weaknesses in courtesy, at least Spong isn’t complicit in encouraging murderous acts against faithful Anglicans who have been marginalized by… Read more »
NP:
That only happens if the ABC wants to try and run the Communion without TEC’s money.
NP: While we may be on the same side more-or-less, I don’t trust the ABC nearly as much as you seem to. I suspect he will try to get whatever half-baked concessions he can from TEC and will then try to claim that whatever piddlin’ bone(s) TEC throws out meet the demands of the AC. I think you’re right that he would like to preserve the AC, but he wants to preserve it with everybody (especially TEC $$) at the table. (Apologies if I sound overly cynical here). Consequently, I’m looking for some “peace in our time” Chamberlain-esque paper waving… Read more »
It is not a straight choice any more. It is not enough, any more, to remove invitations that were given in the full knowledge of decisions being taken and the timetable available within TEC. It is between keeping the Archbishop’s own agenda and having to, according to the Nigerians, postpone the Lambeth Conference, call a special primates’ meeting instead, rush ahead with a restrictive Covenant (instead of processing it through to completion, if it is, by about 2012). He is not going to introduce a manipulated primates meeting instead of a Lambeth Conference, which is specifically set up for discussion… Read more »
We are all also living with the consequences of a theology that decreed that God doesn’t care what is made manifest in this world, as God is going to replace it with a new one. So we didn’t have to worry about leaving mineral or oil reserves for future generations. We didn’t have to worry about establishing peace; in fact there are those that deliberately destabilized other societies and nations to further their own self interests. We didn’t have to worry about teaching our children about how to be peaceful, after all, the pulpit exists to teach souls how and… Read more »
Hmm, as the meeting between the HoB and ABC (plus) nears and happens, do I detect a clear heightening of the realignment community screeching? Shouts range from: Get the filthy homosexuals, to: Punish the liberal believers for daring to say they have an ethical or theological belief system for their progressive following of Jesus of Nazareth, to: Down with modernity aka The Great Dead End, to fastidious realignment repeats of: There Is Only One True God And We Alone Are His Followers, to: … well what huge list, and growing. Meanwhile, we are still the Anglican Communion – but surely… Read more »
I think that some here fail to realise that RW wants to keep the Communion together. if anyone leaves, then he will have thought himself to have failed in his aim.
The Global South agenda simply wouldn’t be accepted by the CofE. I think this is probably RW’s fear, too – because about 20% of the CofE is likely to depart, either to Rome or to the Akinolasydneyfundigelicals. That is going to cause a row whatever way one looks at it, although I think it will be a relief.
Pat – you really should not mention that the AC is held to ransom with TEC inherited $ (even if it is true)….this is supposed to remain unspoken! Also, Pat, with all its inherited money, why does TEC want to say BOTH that it will break whatever AC agreements it wishes to ignore but still wants to be in…..the cash inherited from people who never imagined the current leadership of TEC(USA)should give the HOB some confidence to create TEC(Global) – it is bizarre that TEC is so desperate to stay in the AC. Let’s see if the ABC can get… Read more »
“…it is bizarre that TEC is so desperate to stay in the AC…” I missed something. Is it bizarre to want to continue to talk to your mother or father, who had no choice over whether or when they conceived you? Every child hopes they will be able to continue to talk to their parents. The exceptions are where the children choose to be outrageous to prove that their parents won’t talk to them, or when the parents are so uptight that they will only talk to their children if they are “suitable”. Many of the greatest parables involve the… Read more »
” … with all its inherited money, why does TEC ,,,”
There you go again, NP, hung up on all this mythical ‘inhetited money.’
TEC’s budget process is public – it happens at every General Convention. You could look it up. Granted, finding things on TEC’s improved but still strange web site isn’t easy, but I think if you actually did the research you could drop the ‘inherited wealth’ singsong.
NP:
“Inherited money”? TEC’s ability to contribute so greatly to the AC’s missionary efforts depends on the CURRENT charity of Episcopalians throughout the USA, not on any huge endowment or something like that.
This is just one more attempt to prove that the con-evos are the “real” inheritors of the Episcopal church. It’s so easy to say “Your grandfathers would never have allowed….” Well, yeah, that’s true…my grandfather would never have allowed lots of things, like letting my sister be ordained, or wearing jeans to church, or playing sports on Sunday.
That doesn’t mean my grandfather was right.
Cynthia – are you not aware of the endowments from which TEC benefits? This dwarfs current giving (TEC(USA) ain’t viable without its endowments).
Pat – your grandpa may not have been right on everything but I wonder if he would agree with you that the AC should shut up and let TEC(USA) do what it likes because it has the cash the AC needs?
Why do people here spend so much time responding to obvious trolling?
NP:
Actually, yeah, grandpa probably would…those that pays the bills calls the tune is more than likely the stand he would take.
Further, grandpa would probably look at the canons of the Episcopal Church and the traditions of individual provincial polity in the Anglican Communion and tell “all them damn furriners” to shove it.
“I don’t mind a schism with such sanctimonious hypocritical blind selfish tyranny, repression and vilification. I do not know nor desire their God (Daniel 11:37). Good riddance.”— Cheryl Clough
Right on, Cheryl! (And now, as the Jensenites move forward with lay presidency, perhaps the majority of Australian Anglicans will find their backbones, too?)
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/move-to-empower-laity-raises-church-ire/2007/09/16/1189881342974.html
Perhaps soon we will be rid of all of these fundagelicals?!
“Move to empower laity”
what a strange description.
Kurt, “doing the Lord’s supper” Like coming to the church after Sunday dinner to “get the baby done”? This, along with references to “elders” speaks about the mindset of the “Sydney Evangelicals” which is how those I have encountered on the Net have defined themselves, not Anglican, which they seem to think gets in the way of their “ecumenism”. Let ’em do it. They’ve been doing it under the radar for years anyway, let them be honest and then we can all demand that they either return to the catholic faith, or declare themselves a sect, and let the rest… Read more »
Kurt – do you realise that there is zero in the bible to say that only a priest can give communion?? The prohibition of lay people presiding was obviously a creation of the National Union of Priests….it ain’t biblical. Pat – your grandpa may not have respected “damn furriners” but please note that +Duncan et al are American and even amongst American Christians, the current leadership of TEC is certainly in a minority……some say TEC is more in step with US society but then find it hard to explain why TEC loses 700 people per week if they are so… Read more »
“Cynthia – are you not aware of the endowments from which TEC benefits? This dwarfs current giving (TEC(USA) ain’t viable without its endowments).” Show me evidence. It may well be that the Church Pension Fund is built on endowed money – it’s a very generous retirement system – but that money is dedicated to that purpose and cannot be used for anything else. If TEC does have endowed funds, and they are anything like other endowments, they are dedicated to particular uses, and cannot be used for operating expenses. The deep pockets that fly African bishops from hidiously poor countries… Read more »
“What will you have, Ford?” I will be faced with the choice of, on the one hand, allying myself with people who try to live the Gospel, but whose approach to theology leaves me uncertain, and on the other hand, with people who loudly insist everyone else adhere to their narrow legalism and who manifestly do not follow a Gospel they try to force on everyone else. Well, by their fruits shall you know them. Anyway, it seems Canada is in its usual position, an afterthought to the Americans. Our actions may not be acceptable to the conservatives, but they… Read more »
JPM: People that don’t agree with your positions are all trolls? Hmm. Maybe you should be a bit more specific about your complaints. One of the only things that makes the posts at TA interesting are the interactions between pros and cons. Otherwise the threads have a tendency to degenerate into fairly whiny, resentful and predictable amen choruses. Boring to me. Maybe even boring to some liberal readers. In addition, “iron sharpens iron” as the proverb says. The interactions of pro/con at TA help both sides to clarify their positions and reasoning. And, incidentally, may even defuse (or at least… Read more »
“”Move to empower laity” what a strange description.” Sounds lovely though, doesn’t it? Everybody’s all about “empowerment” these days, and you gotta speak the language. And “empowering” the laity has such cachet, especially since it can be cast against the “priest ridden” medieval style Church. So, they get to look like they’re freeing the laity from the overbearing priestly class, being all egalitarian in a Reformation era sort of way, and middle class Sydney thinks it’s great. All they have to do is subscribe to a few rules that already describe their lives anyway, and ignore anything that is inconvenient,… Read more »
“Kurt – do you realise that there is zero in the bible to say that only a priest can give communion?? The prohibition of lay people presiding was obviously a creation of the National Union of Priests….it ain’t biblical.”—NP
Isn’t that interesting, NP? You prods have no problem with the unquestionably historical innovation of laypeople celebrating Mass, yet you accept anti-gay bigotry, and claim that gay bishops (and women clergy, too!) are an “innovation.” Another reason why you Calvinists are not really Anglicans/Episcopalians.
“even amongst American Christians, the current leadership of TEC is certainly in a minority……” Really? Can you provide statistics? And don’t give me the number of people in the mega-churches or the number of leaders of other denominations who say such-and-such. Those don’t say anything about what the rank-and-file actually think about an issue like homosexuality. Those numbers only tell us what the leaders say about it. “some say TEC is more in step with US society but then find it hard to explain why TEC loses 700 people per week if they are so in tune!” Again–cite a source… Read more »
“What will you have, Ford? I don’t think you want to be in the “VGR Communion”, do you? I think you will go Eastern Orthodox, right?” Unless the tyrants decide to make new churches illegal, I am sure we will find a communion that honors the best of the bible and remembers that Jesus promised gentleness. If there isn’t one locally, we’ll find one or if need be make one. Stephen, I agree with you, I have learnt far more about the bible through these repartees than I ever would have through traditional study methods. As I go searching for… Read more »
You are not the troll, Steven, and I agree with you that the difference of opinion can improve the level of argument. It is about seeing where matters are going. It is of course possible that there could be an astonishing about turn, but it would be even more astonishing. Why so? Because Rowan Williams gave a fantastic lecture recently that would probably lead to the African archbishops having kittens if they read it carefully, that he will be opening an interfaith based centre in New Orleans, and he will be presiding at a eucharist and addressing a gay and… Read more »
Ford – why not go the Orthodox route? Better with them than those who try and pretend the Lord said “If you love me, you don’t have to obey any commands that don’t fit with you.” He did not teach that, as you know – but some bishops effectively do teach that with regard to certain issues. Obviously, I do not agree with you that those who ignore certain verses and teach certain sins are no longer sins are “living the gospel”. I do agree with you that some who teach conservative theology sin and make big mistakes. However, their… Read more »
Get behind thee those who purport a limit to God’s forgiveness. Read Matthew 18:21-35 “…Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his… Read more »
Better with them than those who try and pretend the Lord said “If you love me, you don’t have to obey any commands that don’t fit with you” Didn’t you read what I wrote? NP, your chorus of “Evil TEC tells people they don’t have to obey God” makes you look silly, and not in a ‘Fool for Christ’ sort of way. Everybody else knows it isn’t true, and can see the bad behaviour of those bishops you think so Godly. That you won’t acknowledge it shows that you are either dishonest or naive. I choose to believe the latter.… Read more »
Pluralist: I agree that the ABC’s heart is not in Africa (so to speak). However, I think he wants to keep the Africans as much as the Americans, but for different reasons. Consequently, he continues to try to square the circle and come up with some compromise that will mollify the parties and keep them–even if grumbling–at the same table. (That’s why I’m looking for him to try the same thing following New Orleans). Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately to some), as the parties draw farther and farther apart he is like a man trying to straddle a widening crevasse. His… Read more »
NP: I can’t go with Sydney on lay presidency. No one can claim they cease to be Christian by adopting this way of doing things. However, I could say the same about Sister Bertha’s “Holiness Temple of the Apostolic Prophecies” (loosely speaking). I, for one, aspire to be not just Christian (along with a host of other protestant denominations), but Catholic and Anglican as well. Consequently, while I scold liberals for being willing to throw out the simplest and most basic Christian/Catholic/Anglican ethical teachings on sex and marriage, I also hate to see Sydney throwing out some of the simplest… Read more »
I think there are some clues as to which way he will jump back, Steven. Incidentally, chasms grow in width very quickly after schisms; whilst the mass of the Communion would instantly become more tolerant by virtue of who walked off, there could be a reaction of more conservatism in the main Communion to try and woo them back. It would not work, as once a group has gone and tastes its own autonomy and then lays out the issues in a way it always wanted (and sets off to evangelise the rest of the world) they would not be… Read more »
“The prohibition of lay people presiding [at communion] …. ain’t biblical.” True, NP, but it is, absolutely and unquestionably, “Anglican”. Espousal of lay presidency is, as Kurt notes above, “another reason why you Calvinists are not really Anglicans/Episcopalians”. Two or three months ago I wrote of the Baptists and Presbyterians who form a mainstay of the Truro and Falls Church Virginia secessionist churches, that I believe that one of the factors attracting them to the Truro and Falls Church congregations is “brand-name” purchasing – that, formal denomination affiliation notwithstanding, they were drawn to Episcopal/Anglican churches (“the Church of Presidents”) by… Read more »
Ford – I do aknowledge my leaders and I are just as sinful (if not more so!) than VGR. Got it? Do I need to repeat that yet again?? The difference is that we are not saying that any of our sins are virtues all of a sudden – in contradiction to scripture and centuries of tradition as well as most scholarly biblical interpretation today. Ford, you do not want to accept that TEC(USA) leadership and VGR certainly are teaching people that they do not have to obey God on a particular issue and want to make out it is… Read more »
Pluralist: I agree that the split will be, for all practical purposes, irrevocable. (Or, at least as irrevocable as the East/West, Protestant/RC splits). As to Rowan, who knows. I think I know where his heart and theology lie, but I’m not sure whether he doesn’t feel some pull to be aligned with the growth and dynamism of the third world church. That’s where Christianity is exploding, and that is where the power of numbers lie and will increasingly lie in the future. First world liberal Anglicanism is withering, and will continue to wither without conservatives. I don’t believe TEC will… Read more »
Now where would the Nazarene fit into this lot (if at all)? ‘Less’ than a Baptist for sure ….. ‘Two or three months ago I wrote of the Baptists and Presbyterians who form a mainstay of the Truro and Falls Church Virginia secessionist churches, that I believe that one of the factors attracting them to the Truro and Falls Church congregations is “brand-name” purchasing – that, formal denomination affiliation notwithstanding, they were drawn to Episcopal/Anglican churches (“the Church of Presidents”) by some of factors that also determine their choice of the subdivisions in which they live, the schools that their… Read more »
Steven, You and don’t always agree, and there’s times where our two personalities clash, but in that last post we share a certain sentiment. I just don’t see that the Church’s treachings on sex and marriage are about some moral code, neither do I think that this sanctifying of the state of marriage is particularly in line with what the Gospel actually seems to be saying about marriage. I really don’t believe that Jesus or Paul or anyone else in those days saw it as that important. Jesus comes out and says that marriage is not part of the Kingdom,… Read more »
Steven – sure, but is this LP not an example of what Paul in Romans would call a “disputable” matter….something which should not break unity?
So, as you say, LP is not contradicting scripture but just a human tradition so I would hope that you would still be able to be in communion with people who do have LP?
Steven, it is worth noting that there has been a long history of “conservative” groupings departing TEC based on its supposed liberal ways. Each of these splits, to some greater or lesser extent, have seen themselves as the true Anglican remnant. Neither the Reformed Episcopal Church nor any of the assorted continuing and / or traditional Anglican groupings of the 1970s and 80s ever really established themselves as much of an alternative. Indeed, at least one “continuing Anglican” bishop has renounced Episcopal orders and been received back into the Episcopal Church. Of course, as so many of us have pointed… Read more »
Malcolm says “the Episcopal Church will simply get on with getting on and that the assorted split-offs will eventually find their own little niches where they may reside until they drift into irrelevance.”
I hope they will all be in the Anglican Communion in due course…..they fit very well with most of us in the AC, you know.
“is this LP not an example of what Paul in Romans would call a “disputable” matter” No. It denies traditional treaching about Holy Order and the Eucharist or at least implies very different understandings of these two sacraments. This has huge implications for how we understand the Incarnation, the nature of the Church, how God interacts with His Creation, what priesthood is, it even impinges on our understanding of redemption. This is no small matter, NP. “LP is not contradicting scripture” Yes it is. And don’t go getting on with that “traditions of men” nonsense. Evangelicalism, with it’s comparatively recent… Read more »
NP: I guess the question comes down to what we mean by being in communion. I may take communion in a Presbyterian Church and a Presbyterian may take communion in an Anglican Church, but we are not in communion in the sense the term is commonly used in the AC. In the AC it indicates a shared polity, a shared system of basic beliefs and practices, and respect for the orders of each provincial Church such that a bishop in the U.S. is also accepted as a bishop in England. It also means that we’re all part of one over-arching… Read more »
Steven – I can see what you mean but will not accept the attempt of others to equate LP (which is not disobeying any verse in the Bible) with other acts which are directly disobeying certain clear verses.