Global South Anglican has published Statement from the Global South Primates Steering Committee, London, Mar 13-15, 2008.
Five Primates – Abp Peter Akinola, Abp Greg Venables, Abp Kolini, Abp Mouneer Anis and Abp John Chew – met together for some heart to heart conversations from 13th to 15th March in London. They released this statement…
The first three listed of these primates also attended the GAFCON meeting reported here:
We met in England as the leadership team of the Global Anglican Future Conference and Jerusalem Pilgrimage from March 10-12, 2008…
See picture here of the latter group, and the caption lists them:
Left to Right, Rt Rev Nicodemus Okille, Uganda, representing Archbishop Henry Orombi, Rt Rev Don Harvey, Anglican Network in Canada, Canon Dr Vinay Samuel (India), Rt Rev Chuck Murphy (Anglican Mission in America) Consultant, Rt Rev Wallace Benn, Lewes, England, Rt Rev Martyn Minns, CANA, USA, Mr Hugh Pratt, England, Treasurer,Archbishop Nicholas Okoh, Bendel, Nigeria, Rt Rev David Anderson, CANA, Consultant, Rev David Pileggi, Christ Church Jerusalem, Consultant, Canon Dr Chris Sugden, England
Front Row – Rt Rev Bob Duncan, Moderator, Common Cause, USA, Archbishop Greg Venables, Southern Cone, Archbishop Peter Akinola, Primate of all Nigeria, Archbishop Emmanuel Kolini, Rwanda, Archbishop Peter Jensen, Sydney, Archbishop Benjamin Nzimbi, Kenya
I pointed out in a previous post how Christchurch, Jerusalem are at variance with the diocese. The diocese is liberal pro-Palestinian Arab ( many ex Catholics) and Christchurch conservative evangelical, pro Israeli. The diocese has stayed away from the ordination of women, so as not to damage its relationship with the ancient churches of the region. So Bishop Jeffers- Schorri is an interesting development. The Egyptian Bishop has an assistant,Deryk Eaton who was a bishop in Nelson in New Zealand. The latter actually participated in the consecration of a woman in Dunedin, and the evangelicals there are liberal on womens… Read more »
I did not click on the link to see what they said because I frankly find myself caring less and less what they say.
Interesting that the picture includes, out of 17 members of the planning committee, 11 of them are white men, 9 from churches in the West (USA/Canada/England/Australia) and 2 more westerners in GS provinces. Is this really a Global South initiative, or are certain parties in the Global North really calling the shots?
_the primary and urgent task is to move the global Anglican Communion substantially and effectively forward, to be living and witnessing as a worthy and exemplary expression of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church._ Another intention, then, to turn a communion into a Church. However, reading through this Global South text I see some dancing around the problem that some will go to Lambeth, some to GAFCON and some to both. Good that the Lord enabled them to do all this at a busy time – how do they know? The GAFCON report of itself reads like vacuous public… Read more »
A picture really is worth the proverbial thousand words. For a movement out of Africa there seem to be a lot of pale faces there. It is also of interest that I see no asian faces either.
The Global South seems srangely “Northern.” How odd, doncha think?
Hi Jim According to the usual “analysis” that gets done 1. If there are white males there they must be calling the shots — providing chicken dinners — and generally manipulating the ignorant of the Global South 2. If there are not white males around, then the Global South people are ignorant of the amazing insights that are only found through contact with the white people of the amazing western world, and if they only had such contact they would think entirely differently (and correctly). Ideally any particular commentator choses between these two colour-of-skin based interpretations, though I have seen… Read more »
Yes, just six black people –very ‘Southern’.
The whole business is ‘… a vain thing fondly invented…’
I was struck by this bit:
“The controversial visit involving the Joint Standing Committee of the Primates and the ACC (Oct 2007), without prior consultation with the Primates on its composition, procedure and accountability process . . .”
The operative bit, of course, is “without prior consultation with the Primates . . .”
This isn’t about God at all. It is about power. It is a coup d’eglise by power-mad prelates.
I was struck by the fact that it’s all men. Men, men, men! But let’s look at some of the players. Until 2000 Rwanda had this to say on womens rights, “”Previously, under Rwandan law and tradition, women and girls did not have the right to inherit land; instead, it was expected that they would enjoy the benefits of communal property, which was, in fact, owned by husbands or fathers.” “In Nigeria there are regional religious and ethnic variations in the pattern of discrimination against women, but indicates that men are legally able to prevent their wives from working, from… Read more »
Margaret,
I would tend toward the former. This is not just a few white faces, but a preponderance.
I’m also curious about their statement about expanding the guest list for the next Global South Encounter. Who might these additional attendees be? Northerners, perhapsÉ
Quite a few air miles being clocked up by the ‘global south’ primates. Who is paying for them all, I wonder?
Hey Margaret: let me raise you with a *3-part* analysis:
1) If the facts favor you, argue the facts.
2) If the law favors you, argue the law.
3) If NEITHER favors you, pound the table!
Therefore, GAFCON had been “favoring” us w/ option 3 (the table-pounding by the homophobic Drama Queens is getting rather incessant :-/)
I’m getting worse. I thought I had a very self-reflective and uplifting Semana Santa filled with joy and forgiveness…but no, I’m still one of the angry “inclusive” ones…when I look at a photo op for grinning, yet deadly, “excluders” smurking my heart sinks. I think of the millions of Anglicans/others (at all levels of society, Margaret) who are persecuted and discriminated against by these cheesy plotters at The Body of Christ.
Exclusion kills.
Malcolm,
It is interesting – where is the humility to recognize our own limitations? You know it is a matter of “power mad prelates” not about God at all! It would be a sign of hope if in these circumstances if we were prepared to wait and let God be judge (cf 1 Cor. 4:3-5).
Ben W
— providing chicken dinners —
You get particularly angry at chicken, Margaret?
Why don’t you concentrate on something more important?
I see this present war in the Anglican Communion as one between the Fundamentalists, never mind what their skin-colour is, and Historical Anglicanism.
“O God, who art the author of peace and lover of concord, in knowledge of whom standeth our eternal life, whose service is ‘perfect freedom’.” BCP
Fundamentalism is “perfect bondage”, as far as I am concerned. St Paul said, “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” ESV.
Margaret,
Good to see you back on TA, I hope you had a blessed Easter!
I know this is not the right thread, but can I please ask you to look at our open conversation of last week, and maybe reply to my last post to you? You must have missed it in the pre-Easter rush and I’m sure you’d like to respond if you had seen it.
The thread is now in the archives:
PB visits South Carolina, 5th March
http://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/archives/2008_03.html
Comment list: http://thinkinganglicans.org.uk/mt/comments?entry_id=2955
I promised myself I wouldn’t post here again, but my soul is in anguish. How did we ever come to this point? Presumably everyone here [apart from Robert .. chuckle, you should get up to date on your information Robert!] is Anglican .. and yet there’s sheer hatred positively emanating from this page, no love, no tolerance .. which I thought was your watchword. Exclusion kills does it Leonardo? Well you’re ‘excluding’ decent, upright members of our church who don’t exclude anyone, but who believe that practicing homosexuals shouldn’t be ordained. I personally don’t think women should be ordained either.… Read more »
“Exclusion kills does it Leonardo? Well you’re ‘excluding’ decent, upright members of our church who don’t exclude anyone, but who believe that practicing homosexuals shouldn’t be ordained. I personally don’t think women should be ordained either. Can you tolerate that? Haven’t you always talked about this BIG umbrella that could hold all of us? Are we not entitled to our point of view .. we’ll ALL answer to Our Lord one day. When did the wall become so big that no one is going to climb it again? It’s going to be a fight to the death isn’t it ..… Read more »
“proclaim the transforming love of Christ.” And how they suppose their behaviour is doing this? I mean really, they are acting according to “the transforming love of Christ”? On what planet has “the transforming love of christ” been mutated and perverted into the thing THEY make manifest in their actions? “future in which the Gospel is uncompromised and Christ-centered mission a top priority.” The self righteousness of this is really quite funny. They show no inclination to reverse the compromises of the Gospel they benefit from, or which are so old they are simply taken for granted. No, the only… Read more »
I’m always amused when somebody demands that we be inclusive of their views of exclusivity. What’s even more amusing is that my experience the “exclusivists” (now that’s a good name, huh?) are often the first ones to whine about “traditional” music in most parishes that is “difficult”, “old-fashioned” or “elitist” (I’m serious). I’ve seen many choir director fired in favor of a “rock band”, and resulting in worship that has little to do with traditional Anglican worship. Go look at the CANA list on the other string and I’ll bet you all dimes to dollars that the majority of these… Read more »
Pat, how many times do conservatives get on this site and accuse people of being nasty to them? How many times have you been baffled by this, since the treatment of liberals, as many can attest, on conservative blogs is far worse than anything that happens here. I know I am frequently baffled. Besides, while it isn’t necessarily true in this case, how many conservatives come out with anger and insult from the beginning, then claim to be persecuted when people defend themselves? We have all had the experience of our posts not making it to the list, either because… Read more »
Pat, It seems in TEC it is fine to resort to legalisms when it suits them but then on the key point for others the call is not to be bound by what is legal or written! When dioceses or churches want to continue in places where they have served over a life time or maintain what they have built then according to you “That’s illegal, uncanonical.” Christian sense tells me this is blind self-centeredness (even if you can hang it on some legalism). The other side of this coin right now, if your great concern is what is legal,… Read more »
The whole conservative realignment campaign hangs on three dubious premises which are loudly preached without explanation or scrutiny beyond self-serving categorical or presuppositional expositions. One. Historic Anglican leeway – institutional, doctrinal, ethical, theological – within which any non-conservative Anglican believers have existed or do exist – is suddenly now awful, evil, and must be purged or conformed. Two. In much of conservative realignment campaign strategy, alleged conservative good ends justify dodgy means – like laying claim to parish property which just happens to mean that it is removed from the aforementioned additional Anglican spaces called dioceses or provinces where those… Read more »
“When dioceses or churches want to continue in places where they have served over a life time or maintain what they have built then according to you “That’s illegal, uncanonical.”” It is, actually. The idea that the people resident in a parish own the building they worship in is a product of the more Congregational aspects of the Reformation. One cannot credibly claim to defend the Catholic Faith if one doesn’t understand the reason behind this basic principle. We are not Congregationalists. choirboy, “non-traditional music” I call them MPEPs: mindless PanEvangelical pap. We use the old Canadian book, replete with… Read more »
Ben: There’s a difference between legal documents such as the canons of a church and the written word of the Scripture. Both must be interpreted, it is true, but the canons have the force of law and the teeth of due process. The Scriptures do not. Comparing the two and how they should be followed is simply ridiculous. The parishes and dioceses who wish to leave TEC knew the rules regarding property when they started. The rules haven’t changed. They had two choices–remain with TEC, keep the property, and work to change TEC to their liking is one. The other… Read more »
Ben, Ben, Ben. If it were about something besides power-mad prelates, then the very first complaint would not have been about how a body with no inherent right to be consulted had not been consulted. (Delegated authority – which is what the Joint Standing Committee has – includes the authority to take action as required.) But it was your final sentence that most amused me. “It would be a sign of hope if in these circumstances if we were prepared to wait and let God be judge (cf 1 Cor. 4:3-5).” So, this applies to a gang of extremely well-traveled… Read more »
Response to Rosemary If you want real hatred, you should peruse the Stand Firm and Virtue on line website, where I have seen the most appalling and uncharitable things written…describing homosexuals in the most gutter language. Even though I disagree with homosexual practice , I would never use such language….indeed my Church deems such langauage as sinful. The Principle at Stake When a person joins a church or is ordained in it…they promise to abide by its canons. If a person suddenly decided that they can not abide by those canons because they conflict with their conscience, they shoud leave… Read more »
“decent, upright members of our church who don’t exclude anyone, but who believe that practicing homosexuals shouldn’t be ordained. I personally don’t think women should be ordained either.”
From Pseudorthodox *oxymorons*, Good Lord Deliver Us—Alleluia!
drdanfee, You go on about trash talk and seem to make things up as you go. I tried simply to make some points, I do not know about your “infamous Chapman report.” I have not read it and if it is as bad as you say it is probably a good thing! If you want to say in Anglican tradition we have a system that when a whole diocese has serious differences with some form of wider leadership they simply have to take it, OK (you again nicley manage to overlook the point I made that these people I speak… Read more »
Malcolm,
I do not want go into diversion with you so I will not take up all you say here. Only to ask, when you speak of certain leaders and say “who believe everyone should follow their orders,” who is resoting to measures and canons never intended for this to have their way? Get real.
Ben W
The facts are the facts, Ben – as much as you wish it were otherwise.
The Primates Meeting has no authority but to meet for fellowship and prayer.
C’est tout.
The rest of their recent machinations are an illicit, uncanonical and dishonest attempted coup d’eglise.
I sympathize with you that the facts so undermine your utopian vision.
But the Bishop of Abuja hath no jurisdiction in this realm of Canada.
Stand firm have just announced that the ” fellowship” discourse was by Dean Jensen, and Sarah Hey made a mistake attributing it to the Archbishop. Anyway the theology of the brothers is virtually the same. Apart from the fact the Dean does not believe women should preach to mixed congregations….the Archbishop ordains them deacons. Archbishop Jensen will not attend Mass, ( listen to him on Reform , London) but associates and supports bishops who believe they offer it everyday! You see you can’t invite Tanzania to GAFCON without including the Anglo-Catholic dioceses. GAfcon is worth a Mass, even if its… Read more »
Pat, I think much of this remains to be seen, it is not that clear that a whole diocese remaining true to what they have always been can simply be deprived of what they have built and maintained. I think the ab Rowan W saw this coming and wanted to guide things in a more Christian direction (and my more basic point is that the people involved however you think of them are and remain part of the Anglican family. For the sake of our own identity as Christians and for the sake of relations with the family we must… Read more »
“…these people I speak of seek the freedom to affirm what they always affirmed as Anglicans and in doing that to maintain their position…”
And who is stopping them from doing so, Ben? Gene Robinson? How? Katharine Jefforts Schori? Again, how? What are they doing that keeps these people from “affirming what they always affirmed”? Are you saying that the very existence of a gay bishop, or of those who support him, in the same national church prevents these people from so affirming?
They were anti modern before they were Modern, Ben? or before they were late modern?
Or where they neo-cons in 1850?
Do try the Chapman memorandum! it will amuse you ; = )
Pat, If the larger church takes on a certain identity, as TEC is in process of doing, that in itself becomes a structure of conformity. That entity will make decisions and work in a way that furthers its ends, leaving out or excluding the others in different ways(it is not as if we don’t know how this works – in a minor key this has already been the case and played for a long time). The way that TEC has moved to “strongarm tactics” as of first resort shows clearly where we are. We have referred to the attitude of… Read more »
There is a superb interview with Bishop Matthews elect of Christchurch on RADIO NEW ZEALAND
GO TO RADIO NEW ZEALAND
TAP IN NINE TO NOON
THE INTERVIEW IS ON the 26 MARCH
“If the larger church takes on a certain identity, as TEC is in process of doing, that in itself becomes a structure of conformity. That entity will make decisions and work in a way that furthers its ends, leaving out or excluding the others in different ways(it is not as if we don’t know how this works – in a minor key this has already been the case and played for a long time).” And the solution to that is not to walk away but to work from within to effect change. The US has taken on a “certain identity”… Read more »
“TEC has moved to ‘strongarm tactics’ as of first resort”
You have GOT to be kidding me. Faithful *Episcopalians* held captive by their anti-gay (and anti-women) bishops pleaded w/ the national church for YEARS to save them from *their bishop’s* “strongarm tactics”.
It was ONLY when those same bishops took irrefutable action toward *schism* that the HofB FINALLY said “Enough is enough.”
Deposition (as w/ xSchofield) was TEC’s LAST resort, not the first, BenW!
“If the larger church takes on a certain identity, as TEC is in process of doing, that in itself becomes a structure of conformity.” By virtue of being an Anglican, I am a member of a Church whose ‘identity’ includes the acceptance of usury and judicial murder. I feel these are contrary to the Gospel. I am also part of a Church some of whose members support the jailing of gay people, whose leaders lie while pretending to defend Truth. This latter group is trying to distance itself from me and mine, but most are still members of the same… Read more »