Updated twice
Jonathan Wynne-Jones in the Telegraph has another exclusive, this time about traditionalists threatening to leave the Church of England.
Anglican bishops in secret Vatican summit
Bishops’ defection: A major new blow to the Anglican church
Update
Associated Press British bishops in defection talks with Vatican
…Rev. Keith Newton, the bishop of Richborough, said the trip consisted of “nothing more than exploratory talks” and denied a report in The Sunday Telegraph that he and his colleagues had secretly promised the Vatican they were ready to defect to Rome.
…Newton was joined in his most recent trip by Rev. Andrew Burnham, the bishop of Ebbsfleet, and Rev. John Broadhurst, the bishop of Fulham.
Burnham did not immediately return a call seeking comment, but Broadhurst also confirmed that the trip had taken place, although he declined to say what was discussed.
“I don’t want to be drawn on it,” he said, explaining that the issue “can damage both the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church.”
Monday’s Times has a report by Ruth Gledhill that reports on the forthcoming publication of the proposed legislation at the end of this week.
See Synod to vote on final stage of code to allow women bishops.
The Church of England is expected to pave the way for the consecration of women bishops when it publishes final proposals this week. The legislation, to be debated by the General Synod in July, will trigger a departure of some traditionalists to the Roman Catholic Church.
Sources told The Times that the legislation for women bishops would include no statutory provision for opponents. Instead, arrangements to allow traditionalist parishes to opt out of the oversight of a woman bishop are expected to be included in a voluntary code of practice. This will not be enough to placate a small number of leading Anglo-Catholics who fear that female bishops will “taint” the historic catholicity of the Church of England.The proposed legislation is to be sent to members of the synod on Friday…
If/when they leave —
My message to the “traditionalists”: Go with God.
My message to the Vatican: They’re your problem now.
Consider the exodus of these Anglican bishops and priests a blessing for the Church of England. I do not say this to be uncharitable. The reasons for their defection to Rome are homophobia and misogyny. They will no doubt find comfort in the like minded Joe (Benedict) Ratzinger. His entire papacy has been about “reform of the reforms” of the Second Vatican Council. His papacy is hardly an example of the inclusive love of Jesus. Joe Ratzinger stands for turning back the clock and returning to the days before Vatican II. It is not going to work. The Anglican bishops… Read more »
This is of course is blackmail, and they hope it will strengthen their hand in the Synod. More fool the CDF for playing game.
The articles use words suggestive of assault and/or open warfare. What, pray tell, exactly is the nature of any harm done to the C of E by the departure of a collection of prelates and clerics who are unhappy with it? There will still be Anglo-Catholics left who have not bent the knee to the Doctrine of Female Sacerdotal Impossibility, able to offer a truly Catholic voice.
But for the most part, I think the Church might well breathe a sigh of relief, and wish the departing flock Godspeed. Houses divided and all that.
the departure of the die-hard anti-women’s ordination bishops may be not a blow, but a blessing in disguise for the Church of England.
I am sorry if I seem to be naive, but if these bishops and the clegy who follow them defect to Rome won’t it make it rather easier for the rest of us who remain, the vast majority of Anglicans and indeed Anglo Catholics, to get on with helping to create an inclusive church where neither gender nor sexuality are requirement for full membership of the kingdom of heaven?
This “story” actually appears on the front page of the print edition of this newspaper as the second lead.
As far as I understand from the text – three “flying” bishops appointed to look after those who remain opposed to women as priests and bishops – who we knew previously were having clandestine meetings with Vatican officials – have been to Rome for more meetings.
A quiet day at the office then …….
Heh: on this side of The Pond, we just had a defecting bishop (+Herzog, retired of Albany NY) COME BACK from Rome. Perhaps some CofE defectors will ALSO find that Rome’s not all it’s cracked up to me (or rather, it’s JUST “cracked up”? ;-/)
“It will also raise the stakes of a crucial vote at this summer’s General Synod , the Church of England’s parliament, which will decide what provisions to give traditionalists opposed to the introduction of women bishops.” – Jonathan Wynne-Jones, The Telegraph – No wonder the Pope looks sick at heart in the picture that accompanies this article. Neither he nor the English R.C. bishops, apparently, were aware of the secret meeting of ‘Flying Bishops’ with Vatican officials recently, which is set to put the cat among the pigeons at the July General Synod of the Church of England. Perhaps this… Read more »
Would someone please explain to me how it is that these Church of England traditionalists have their knickers in a knot about consecrating women as bishops when they seem to have no qualms at all about the fact that the Supreme Governor of their church is a woman?
Richard Ashby wrote: “I am sorry if I seem to be naive, but if these bishops and the clegy who follow them defect to Rome won’t it make it rather easier for the rest of us who remain, the vast majority of Anglicans and indeed Anglo Catholics, to get on with helping to create an inclusive church where neither gender nor sexuality are requirement for full membership of the kingdom of heaven?” I don’t believe that Mr. Ashby is naive, but has come to the heart of the matter. Moreover, as one who crossed the Tiber some thirty-four years ago,… Read more »
Has Rome given any thought to the possibility that, should the flying bishops and their flocks take wing, thereby removing the obstacles to full participation of women in the ordained ministry of the CofE, unknown numbers of English RC’s might decide to migrate the other way?
Is there any hope that the upcoming General Synod of The Church of England will have a “Vatican II Moment” and completely abandon the hideous idea of “Flying Bishops”? Rome’s problems will increase with the influx of Anglican priests and bishops who are to become Roman Catholics and yet I still believe the move will only enhance the future for The Church of England. Women bishops are centuries overdue and they will make the Body of Christ a truly inclusive community. I would not worry too much about the future of Anglican/Roman Catholic ecumenical dialogue. It will take a pope… Read more »
So what is the downside here?
These bishops are scheduled to conduct ordinations this Petertide of individuals to the ministry of a church they appear to be actively working to take people out of. Can someone explain to me either the ecclesiology or just plain decency of this?
With all the behind the seasons ‘diplomacy’ taking place at the hands of the ‘Bishops Vagantes’, one hopes that the General Synod will not suffer from a lack of nerve in their decision to allow women priests in the Church of England to be called by God and the C.of E. into the episcopate. The odd system of ‘Flying Bishops’ was only meant to be temporary – awaiting the ‘reception’ of women as clergy by the whole Church. Surely it it time the waiting was over, allowing the C.of E. to catch up with its contemporaries in other parts of… Read more »
‘Flying’ bishops — well named it would seem, as they prepare to fly away. One question : Why the delay ? Another: What are they (high) on ? Another : How can they continue to minister in the C of E if they feel and think like this about the Necessity of Rome ? Or is it more a matter of convenience, taste and posturing? If C of E is no Church, why stay ? If Rome is the Only Church, why delay ? But if they are of more pragmatic turn of mind as seems implicit in their delaying… Read more »
Also, what does Mrs Broadhurst think about it all ?
I think we should be told !
(Secretly hoping she is giving him a hard time) :- )
This latest story irresistibly brought to mind the Tarantara policemen’s song in the second act of Pirates of Penzance: “Away, away! These pirates slay, Tarantara! Then do not stay. Tarantara! Then why this delay? Alright – we go. Yes, forward on the foe! Yes, but you DON’T go! We go, we go!” Bishop Broadhurst came to a recent meeting of the Tablet table and seemed surprised that his imminent arrival among RCs was not greeted with unalloyed joy or enthusiasm, particularly as he seemed to think a pick’n’mix Catholicism would allow him to carry on as ever. He got quite… Read more »
This whole flying bishop thing always seemed to me an ecclesiastical innovation that the Church of England has sprung on the rest of the Anglican Communion despite our historic commitment to “one bishop,one diocese.” I believe it necessitates an emergency meeting of the Primates and perhaps a covenant to rein in this revisionist church which cannot be satisfied with the faith once delivered to the apostles. Who’s with me?
Very few are “with you” Jim Naughton. Flying Bishops is hardly to quote you, Jim, “an ecclesiastical innovation” and more an aberration which draws on the theology of hatred and intolerance. It is the sickest of “theologies” of homophobia and misogyny. As with all of the fundamentalist elements in Christianity it EXCLUDES rather than INCLUDES every human being who may be different. This is the antithesis of the teachings and examples of Jesus. The right wingers always seem to want “emergency meetings of the Primates and perhaps a covenant to reign in this revisionist church”, to quote you, again Jim.… Read more »
Flying bishops, flying bishops!? Is this a new British TV production that is a sequel to “The Flying Nun”? Will it appear soon on American TV? I so enjoyed Sally Field. Maybe they can cast her as a flying mother superior alongside the flying bishops. Although, I don’t know if you can make mitres that have any plausible aerodynamics, the way Sally Fields’ wimple did.
Methinks that since these “flying bishops” have their own sense of theology, ecclesiology, and episcopology (if that’s a word), Rome will have as much difficulty absorbing them as the CofE.
My advice to the C of E for dealing with these departing bishops is to leave the porch light on.
Episcopal bishops crossing the Tiber sometimes cross back.
May the Tiber go flat to ease these poor folks on their way. We are much better off without Duncan and his crew. You all might benefit from the same.
Jim Naughton. Count me in, but remember that GRAS already exists to rescind the Act of Synod which created this foolish arrangment. I’ve said here before that flying bishops are the irresponsible and ignorant confection of John Habgood, who should have known better. I’ve never known an Old Etonian bishop who was any good, and I fear we’re about to be landed with an Old Etonian Prime Minister.
@ Chris Smith – hunh? You seem to be undecided whether you agree or disagree with Jim Naughton. You agree with him that the flying bishops are an undesirable introduction into the Church’s life, but take offense to his use of “innovation” over “abberation” which seems like an argument over two ways of saying the same thing. You don’t apparently think the church should accommodate such institutional structures, but when Canon Naughton facetiously expresses the same sentiment you call it “shameful and shortsighted.” I shudder to think what kind of language you would have used had he actually disagreed with… Read more »
Chris Smith, lighten up, dude! Jim Naughton is pulling your leg.
Kurt Hill
Brooklyn, NY
A question about CofE polity: how does a CofE bishop get sacked and by whom? If the shoe were on the other foot and RC bishops were secretly conspiring with Lambeth Palace to jump ship with their clergy and flock, I think the Pope would quickly use his crosier to give them the hook.
Why haven’t these conspiring bishops been removed from their positions?
Chris Smith, is it possible you don’t know satire when you see it?
“This will not be enough to placate a small number of leading Anglo-Catholics who fear that female bishops will “taint” the historic catholicity of the Church of England.”
More than the concept of “flying bishops” does? Anyway, last I checked “catholic” means universal…what’s more universal than allowing everybody in?
A small point in the greater scheme of things but – I don’t understand how a bishop of the Church of England thinks it consistent with his fiduciary responsiblity to the Church of England to hold secret meetings with another denomination about plans for possible future mass defections. Surely the bishops have to leave the Church of England BEFORE they are free to have such discussions? Or else to obtain the blessing of the Church of England for the discussions first? The Archbishop of Canterbury has said he would not give his blessing. It sounds as if commenters on Thinking… Read more »
Jim, your comments are well taken. Some of us in the CofE have been making that point since 1993 (see Monica Furlong, ed, Act of Synod-Act of Folly? 1998), objecting to the Act of Synod precisely on the grounds of catholic order. One of the interesting things since 1993 has been the way many liberals have found the Act of Synod perfectly tolerable (quite ‘pastoral’, really, you see) when applied to women clergy, but insulting and intolerable when applied to male gay clergy. Many of us women would have welcomed a bit more joined up thinking there, chaps! But better… Read more »
Chris S, you have entirely missed Jim N’s *irony*.
What he’s suggesting be done to the *CofE*, is what has been done/may be done again to *TEC*. Shoe on other foot. Good for goose, good for gander. And like that…
Why does not HRH Elizabeth, as Supreme Governor of the Church of England, ask for the immediate public resignation of these three renegade Bishops?
Um, Chris Smith – I think you might have understood Jim’s comment… I read it rather as a satirical comment on the situation, and comparing it with the reaction of other provinces to the situation with TEC. Am I right Jim? A wee bit harsh to call him shameful and short sighted…
Oh why don’t they just go!
Then perhaps granny England will begin to line up with the majority of the Communion.
You have sat here too long in Christ’s name go.
for the first time i agree with my liberal brothers and sisters: the anglo-catholics who want to come should just come home to rome. Its time they came home, we are waiting for their return..
“Chris Smith, is it possible you don’t know satire when you see it?”
Irony isn’t a word in the American lexicon. Then again there’s Sarah Palin…..
I read Jim’s words as a mimicking of those flung about whenever TEC or the Anglican Church of Canada does something the ‘traditionalists’ do not like. I really do think his words are a leg-pull.
Judith, you raise a good point. I plead my Roman Catholicism in 1993, but I am not sure that’s sufficient excuse.
gosh what love and concern can be found for those you disagree with…..
did ANY of you listen to last Sunday’s Gospel?
Well, to this ex-evo liberal, who has been a member of GRAS from day 1, I hope the mozetta-and-dagger meetings will bring in what the flying bishops and their FiF cohorts want. I think they are a theological nonsense and always have been. But, let me underline, if they want to stay they are welcome (I really am liberal); nevertheless I don’t think the prophetic catholicity of the church in opening its orders to men and women equally should be compromised to accommodate them. You don’t tell a small number of people at a Monopoly convention that it is ok,… Read more »
Like Fr Tomlinson with whom I often disagree, I too am shocked at the strident tone of the comments on this matter.
I am sad to see anyone leave the family I love.
addendum
“that they don’t really believe in seems horribly duplicitous”.
Perhaps, “Father” Ed, it’s because you and your ilk show so little love and concern for those YOU disagree with and so much disdain for those you cannot understand or appreciate; and because you always demonstrate so much insistence on the priority of your tender conscience and superior understanding. A little humility will help you when you finally get round to going up the road to St Gregory’s…..
Ed, do you ever go to Stand Firm or Vitriol Online and wring your hands over how rude people are, or do you save that for your visits to this site?
I have to wonder if over-use of incense clouds the mind, as well as the eyes and sinuses.
I am amazed at the patience and restraint shown here. Try the so-called TitusOneNine and Stand Firm for a real lesson in invective.
I don’t understand how these “flying bishops” can be in a position to do that. How are they appointed Bishops? To whom are they accountable? What are the expectations of them? Is seems strange that they could become bishops and have no accountability to anyone but their own personal constituency, since they don’t actually have diocesan responsibilities. The whole point of their positions is to enable clergy and congregations to remain in the C of E. if they aren’t doing that, what’s the point? They certainly weren’t put into place to become focal points for division and to actually encourage… Read more »