Updated Monday lunchtime
The BBC Radio 4 Today programme carried an item earlier this morning, which you can listen to here.
‘No chance’ gay bishop will split CofE
Canon Chris Sugden and Dr Giles Fraser discuss if the appointment of Dr Jeffrey John as Bishop of Southwark would reopen the wounds of the debate over gay bishops in the Anglican Church.
The interview is 7 minutes long.
Update
The BBC now has a news report, based on the interview linked above, at Appointing gay bishop ‘risks splitting Church’.
Very heartening to hear about the specific support to the GLTB community in the job spec. The paucity of Mr Sugden’s reasons for not apointing JJ to the bishopric is laughable. Ending with the implied threat that Morden and likeminded places would opt for episcipal oversite from elsewhere (Africa?) is sabre rattling. Let them go.
The news, I think, in that interview is Sugden parking his tanks on the lawn unequivocally: the schism is coming home. He said that the Reform parishes would demand (?African) oversight if JJ gets the job.
What a fascinating interview. I think Giles is right in that there is sufficient broad support in Southwark that the CoE would not split….. if it wasn’t for people like Chris who are desperately waiting for even the smallest reason to continue their take-over bid started in America. What Christians in this country think is one thing. But the years since the Windsor Report was written have shown that it’s not about what most people think and believe, but what situations determined politicians can create on the ground. Even if the CoE is still as liberal as Giles believes it… Read more »
I woke up this morning depressed but after finding this article my state of mind improved.
With regard to the interview, can a parish church in the Church of England choose it own bishop? I thought that as an established church, congregationalism was very limited.
Our Episcopal Church has won every settled case where they tried to break away. Would local English churches have recourse to the courts they way they do here? How could an African bishop invade England they way they did in USA?
As a Quaker outsider, I am astonished that a Christian can equate same-sex living with fiddling one’s expenses, as Canon Sugden did this morning. His other beef seems to be that the Coalition government seems to have had a Pauline conversion re: the Alli Amendment on civil partnerships on religious premises, which the Conservative spokeswoman opposed in the Lords.
I was *very* heartened to hear Giles Fraser pull no punches today. I also apologize to all those here who may have been discomfited by my comments in the past around this subject, where my desire to be fair has had me question the heat directed at the likes of Canon Sugden, and perhaps appear to be overly sympathetic to that cause. All I can say, after having listened to a spokesperson of those opposed to homosexuality in the church: I realise now that it is unfortunately mostly spite and speciousness that fuels them. Comparing homosexual persons to those who… Read more »
Really, Chris Sugden seems to have spent the whole of the last nearly ten years doing nothing at all but come with ever flimsier reasons why anybody gay is always invalid for any role as a Christian. What a terrible witness to a religion based on love!
If a gay person keeping to the C of E’s current ridiculous requirements cannot be given a post in the normal way, then what on earth is the point of having the requirements, even from the conservative point of view?
I thought that asserting the authority of a foreign prelate was a crime under the Act of Supremacy 1558, so where does this leave Chris Sugden?
Andrew
Church Mouse explains the convoluted way of choosing bishops here:
http://churchmousepublishing.blogspot.com/2009/10/how-to-make-bishop-is-this-really-best.html
If “the schism” came how many likely parishes are we talking about in Southwark..can anyone tell me? I doubt if there are more than a dozen Reform or reform minded parishes in Southwark and surely not all would dance to a clerically led tune… but more interesting, given we are an Established Church, what legal room for manoevre so to speak do parishes have? I would judge very little, apart from “pulling up the drawbridge” as some spikey Anglo-Catholic parishes did between the wars when parishes were said to be “under the ban”or refusing to pay the common fund..Any diocesan… Read more »
Although I find remarks from Canon Sugden ridiculous and infuriating in comparing loving relationships to committing financial fraud (what is it about two activities, one completely legal and one a crime via your statutes that he doesn’t understand), I cannot understand Canon Fraser’s claim that the C of E won’t split. It already has, thanks to the likes of FIF,and Sudgen’s outright threats.
“Mr” Sugden. Ouch!!
Sugden suggests that some clergy in Southwark would be “unable” (read, “unwilling”) to take the oath of canonical obedience to Dr John if he is made bishop. Last time I looked at Canon C14, s. 3, the oath of obedience read: “I, AB, do swear by Almightly God that I will pay true and canonical obedience to the Lord Bishop of C and his successors in all things lawful and honest: So help me God.” Two points: 1) the key words are “and his successors”. In other words, they have already taken an oath of canonical obedience to whoever is… Read more »
Does “Mr.” Sudgen attend the same evensongs at St. Paul’s as Giles Fraser? That should be interesting in the sacristy/treasury before and afterwards.
Canon Sudgen is acting like a bully who must have his way at the playground or he will throw a hissy fit. Sadly, he reminds me of someone like the protestant fundamentalist, Jerry Fallwell. I am grateful that Giles Frasier challenged him at every turn. Black mail is such a dirty little trick that the fundamentalists play when they don’t get their way. This time the trick has been played just once too often.
How odd that church people are affronted by the title Mr in front of the name of a clergyman (in this case, but of course the same would hold for a clergywoman). I don’t have Crockford’s to hand, but remember when my training incumbent receievd a letter from the Prince Charles’ social secretary in which he was addressed as Dear Revd XYZ instead of Dear Mr XYZ which I believe is the correct form, or at least so my training incumbent claimed. Even those who should know better …….think Revd is a title instead of an adjective.
The “Mr” business relates to the known fondness of a certain individual to be described and referred to as “Canon Dr” Sugden, Sarah.
Chris Sugden is Canon Dr Chris Sugden – he holds a honorary canonry from the Diocese of Jos in Nigeria, and a PhD from Westminster College Oxford, on inculturation of the gospel, with a particular emphasis on protestantism in Java, with its strongly Hindu culture in a Muslim nation.
Quite right, Sara. “Mr Bloggs” is quite correct when writing to the Revd Joe Bloggs. (And do note the definite article!) I think the issue here is that Mr Sugden rather pretentiously insists on being referred to as “Canon Dr”, so “Mr” would be taken by him as a slight.
Call me Nom, call me Mr de Plume, just don’t call me late for dinner.
The Rev’d MR Joe Bloggs, Mr de Plume.
I am sure that “Mr. Sugden” is still gritting his teeth over that one.
Nawt wrong with The Reverend Mr., or in speech, “Mister”.
Maybe it’s because I’m an old lady with old-fashioned ideas, but, to me, the very worst of Chris Sugden’s – oh, pardon me – Canon Dr Chris Sugden’s words was his venture into the discussion of Jeffrey John’s intimate life in a public forum, no less. Very bad manners, or so I was taught.