Updated again Tuesday morning
BBC Women bishops should be allowed, Church of England rules
Press Association Women bishops bid passes key hurdle
Telegraph Jonathan Wynne-Jones Hundreds of traditionalist clergy poised to leave Church of England and Archbishop of Canterbury urges General Synod not to stall women bishops plan
Mail Jonathan Petre Humiliation for Archbishop as Church rejects his last ditch compromise on women bishops and Jack Doyle Archbishop’s unity plea as Church gets closer to ordination of women bishops
Independent Jerome Taylor ‘Desperately difficult’ to keep Church together over women bishops
Cif belief Sally Barnes High time for women bishops
Guardian Riazat Butt Anglican traditionalists left to consider options after vote on women bishops and Archbishop warns against delay over women bishops
Episcopal News Service Church of England advances plans for women bishops
This includes some information about women bishops in other countries.
An extract from the report in The Times by Ruth Gledhill appears over here.
If “[h]undreds of traditionalist clergy” leave the CoE, mostly, I presume, for the Roman Catholic Church, what, exactly, will they be doing? Does the Roman Catholic Church have hundreds of open positions for clergy, along with corresponding sources for salaries?
The threat to leave is either an idle threat or an indication that those doing the threatening are so far out of the mainstream that we should be grateful for their departure.
I am delighted, heartened, happy and full of joy!
It was about time!
To all supporters of women bishops: I am with you celebrating this historic moment!
And, after the party is over, it’ll be again time to work so that as soon as possible women can become bishops in the Church of England!
So far so good, thank goodness, thank God … yet 2012 is plenty of chance to obfuscate, delay, deny, and make very high mischief about womens’ dirt and cooties. I still cannot quite fathom why big tent believers would put all of their eggs in an antiwomen basket in our own era? And why they would carry on with such persistent hostility in favor of their own exclusive self-righteousness that the previous agreement is clearly tested as a failure of the big tent, not a success? And why should the Anglican church being left behind be required to be any… Read more »
What none of the press reports seem to acknowledge is that there is significant accommodation of those opposed to the ordination of women as priests and bishops. They have a statutory right to ask for male only ministry, which they will then get. For many of us that is a pretty big concession. What has happened is that the legislation commended by the Synod has framed concessions for objectors in this way (the ability to decline ministry) rather than by setting up alternative structures or introducing the ability to claim that women priests are lawful but invalid. This is consistent… Read more »
Why are the so-called “traditionalists” so convinced that Rome is just dying to get its hands on hundreds of clergy who have spent decades disobeying and disrespecting their bishops?
“Does the Roman Catholic Church have hundreds of open positions for clergy, along with corresponding sources for salaries?”
Dunno about in England or the Continent, but here in the states there is in fact a priest shortage for the RCs. Not a lot of new vocations.
Don’t know about the money, but the suspician here is that the recent Vatican poking around about the obedience and orthodoxy of women’s orders was also a sniffing about for money in case they should find ‘irregularities.’
Just sayin’
It really irritates me. With the Daily Telegraph FIF do not need a press officer.
Again they are passing on misinformation and distortion… there are going to be very few who leave.
Will people please realise the Ordinariate is a flop and will be very tiny.
In America the Anglican Use is tiny and very few are cradle Anglicans.Less than 0.01 per cent of Episcopalians opted for it
Is John Sentamu a prisoner of hope about people staying or is his prison aided by their pensions, pay and houses?
Cynthia –
Last year in the whole of England and Wales there were only 7 men (seven!) ordained priest in the Roman Catholic church according to one blogger (Augustine of Canterbury). Can anyone else confirm?
This will not remotely replace those retiring. An influx of 200 or so would help them I guess – though if they are in their own Ordinariate churches (wherever they are going to get those from I don’t know – it won’t be Anglican parish churches they will be taking over) presumably they won’t be available to prop up other catholic parishes.
I’ve really not been impressed with the sensationalist way the Telegraph have reported both this story and last week’s Southwark story. “Hundreds of traditionalist clergy are set to leave the Church of England”? That’s not how I read last night’s FiF press release – “Now is not the time for precipitate action. There will be ample opportunity for priests to take counsel and for Forward in Faith to take stock”. Yesterday’s commitment to to make arrangements for a working male bishop to provide some sort of oversight for conscientious objectors was a significant concession which will not undermine the authority… Read more »
FiF priests seeking to take advantage of the Pope’s offer will still encounter strong opposition at the local level. What are they afraid of? Highly competant women with power and authority? Many ordinary laity attend Anglo Catholic churches because of the liturgy and choral tradition and are as much in favour of women’s ministry as those in liberal parishes, but generally keep quiet about it. There would also be an outcry from the general public if prominent parishes at the centre of their communities seek to align with Rome. Somehow it’s just not quintessentially C of E is it? Then… Read more »
I can confirm that in the RC Diocese of East Anglia there were two ordinations this year – the first ordinations for nine years though.
“In America the Anglican Use is tiny…”
True, but Rome’s market share in US Anglo Catholicism was lower than in the UK; American Anglo Catholicism does not tend towards the Anglo Papalist variety. Most of those who left over women’s ordination here opted for various “Continuing Anglican” bodies because Rome was just not as popular. I’d be careful about predicting the success of the Ordinariate in the UK based on the experience of the Anglican Use parishes in the US.
‘..please say something positive about the wonderful contribution of women priests over the last 16 years and deacons over the last 23. This sort of morale-boosting affirmation would be very well received by a group of priests who have to spend a great deal of time being told that they’re a problem.
Posted by: Wilf on Monday, 12 July 2010 at 9:40pm BS
Please don’t forget deaconesses and parish workers too
I thought it was seven RCs ordained in Ireland. It makes little difference – it cannot fill vacancies. (Ha ha – even good Unitarian pulpits cannot fill vacancies). Forward in Faith say 200 will leave – that in sheer quantitative calculating is low, and the reality will be lower. The Church of England is tackling the problem it faces by ordaining more and more clergy that are simply unpaid. But they are getting older and older, and that soon the conveyor belt having to go to the younger end will not produce enough. The significant moves will be made by… Read more »
I second Lionel Diemel. The C of E should keep in mind that most of these threats are hollow. We have “lost” about one percent of dioceses and parishes in the Episcopal Church over the issues of women and homosexuals. The threats of 1300 priests and 10% of parishes leaving the C of E are an exaggeration. Look for it to be closer to 1%. And in the end, the C of E will gain its soul, be allowed to fully use the gifts of all God’s children and attract new generations of people who would otherwise flee from the… Read more »
Do we know who the 15 bishops were that voted against the Abps amendment? Usually the House of Bishops try and hang in together.Did the two Abps signal their proposed course of action at the last meeting of the House of Bishops and discuss it?
“Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand” – Matthew 12:25
Prophetic words indeed for the Church of England. You just had to listen to and watch the debates over the weekend to observe truth working itself out. The revisionist agenda has a lot to answer for.
If one thinks that submission to the Bishop of Rome is a morally viable option, then one has absolutely no excuse for not swimming the Tiber more or less immediately. “I believe in the doctrinal infallibility and universal ordinary jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome, but I’m not going, or at least not yet” is a dishonest, hypocritical, and immoral position. And if does not accept the D.I. and U.O.J. of the Bishop of Rome, then one has absolutely no business even dipping one’s toes into the Tiber. As a lifelong Anglican/Episcopalian, I don’t want any of these folks to… Read more »
“What none of the press reports seem to acknowledge is that there is significant accommodation of those opposed to the ordination of women as priests and bishops. They have a statutory right to ask for male only ministry, which they will then get. For many of us that is a pretty big concession.”
When you say statutory, exactly what does that mean? Does it in fact mean that this “right” must be respected or is it up to the diocesan to decide if he or she will allow it?
Typically, I find Simon Bs remarks at Ekklesia on sex and gender hot buttons to be clear and helpful:
See:http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/12598
I worked for the RCC for years. The diocese of Pittsburgh has closed down numerous churches. All of the ethnic parishes founded at the turn of the century are just about gone. I worked at a parish which at one time consisted of 7 independent parishes. They went from 7 buildings to 4 and then from 4 to two in ten years. The next neighborhood over when from 4 to one. They just aren’t getting vocations and the ones they’re getting aren’t necessarily quality (as one priest friend has said). The idea of deacons really has never panned out. It… Read more »
For all our differences, RIW, I sincerely appreciate your reality-checking the Tell-a-Lie and (if there’s a difference) FiF…
This is just blanket assessment (by Ignorant Yank)of ALL sides of the CofE: if aliens from Alpha Centauri conquered Blightey and took over the State Church (worshipping, oh, the Flying Spaghetti Monster in Morning Prayer/elevating a plate of Spaghetti at Mass!), most English church-goers would comfortably stay in their parish churches. It’s just holy inertia! ;-/
In short, FEW will *leave* for Rome (and @Ed T: you’re NOT going to get take your parish church w/ you. You do know that, right?)
Dvis d’Ambly asks ‘When you say statutory, exactly what does that mean? Does it in fact mean that this “right” must be respected or is it up to the diocesan to decide if he or she will allow it?’ S 2 of the draft measure places a duty on a bishop to produce a scheme for the care of those of the opposite persuasion to them. That is, the care of those opposed to the ordination of women if the bishop is in favour (or a woman) and, in the case of a bishop who will not ordain women, the… Read more »
Bobinspa, tell the full facts…. orthodox Catholic bishops and dioceses are chock full with vocations. For instance Lincobn, Nebraska , with 50,000 Catholics has more vocations than the Archdiocese of Chicago with 3 million Catholics.Similarly all the liberal religious orders are dying out, and the traditional orders are thriving.
The liberals are dying out….
Some of the Anglo-Catholics are no doubt holding out hope that they will still get their pensions, paychecks and housing even if they leave for Rome. If limiting the authority of women Bishops would have been an insult to the women, can one imagine how much of an insult it would be to “pay” the dissenters who leave in protest? I hope they stay, but they’ll no doubt be on their own if they walk out the door.
When I was in France (admittedly a long time ago) each of the families I knew had their Oncle l’Abbé. They are dead now and I hear that in France confirmations and baptisms and even funerals are often done by lay people. And on much of the continent Priests are often Poles. So, in France there is vacant positions if they can work out the practicalities.
Jeremy..the few vocations we are getting are of very high quality and we are also getting good priests from India and Poland to help us out. So we are not expecting FIF to arrive like the Cavalry. I will be very surprised if 20 FIF clergy convert..and not all of those will qualify for ordination.
According to the Media Officer of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales, 16 priests were ordained for the dioceses of England and Wales last year.
Re Jeremy’s question: Having read the documents of the Ordinariate when it was published, I am convinced that if they wanted to Roman (Latin Rite) bishops would be entirely free to take advantage of any formerly Anglican clergy that they might choose to receive (and I use the phrase “take advantage of” advisedly). Indeed, although the Ordinariate might temporarily allow for bishops who were formerly Anglican (but only if celibate), any Ordinariate bishop is required to work with and accommodate the Latin Rite bishop in the same diocese. If there are assisting positions in Latin parishes, Ordinariate priests might fill… Read more »
To respond to Perry Butler, who asked “Do we know who the 15 bishops were that voted against the Abps amendment? Usually the House of Bishops try and hang in together.Did the two Abps signal their proposed course of action at the last meeting of the House of Bishops and discuss it?” 1. The voting figures will be published, so you will know. 2. We weren’t whipped. Nor did Rowan or Sentamu make it into a big deal. They were moving an amendment to fix a problem which we still haven’t resolved completely. It was neither a line nor a… Read more »
The Christian religion is divided against itself, therefore is a kingdom that cannot stand, and that is because no kingdom can be the Body of Christ. No Communion can be decided by mere humans. No gift of Grace can be taken to the returns window by a pampered old man in purple. All this fuss over something that will be completely changed in another few generations – the religion is not eternal, only the Body of Christ.
I am bemused at the thought that the RC clergy of England and Wales in years to come may consist mostly of married ex-Anglican priests! Surely the result will be to prepare the union of the Roman and Anglican churches in Britain…
Dvis, a very good question that no one knows the answer to because they haven’t written the Code of Practice yet. Wilf, Considering the promises made before, whatever code they create, like the “flying bishop” scheme, it will come to an end eventually, and those opposed will have no choice. The question conservatives are wondering now is how long until they are echoing this conservative Church of Sweden priest after the church made acceptance of women priests, etc. mandatory: “… the bishop of my diocese, Dr. Ragnar Persenius of Uppsala, was able to write to me in a letter last… Read more »
Personally, I am encouraged by the letter (above) of Bishop Pete Broadbent, by the pastoral letter of the Bishop of London, by the statement of the Catholic Group, by the statement of FiF, and by Rowan Williams’ gloss on the amendment. There seems to be a deep, deep resolve across a wide range of opinion to get a settlement that will nourish all.
Will TA be publishing the voting record of members of Synod during this debate? This could be helpful in deciding who to back in the forthcoming elections for GS.
There is a quota laid down by Rome..as I state not all Anglican clergy will be accepted for ordination training. I know several who were turned down by Rome and not by the local bishop. By the way the Church accepts other Protestant ministers, like Lutherans and Methodists in the USA. By the way in 2008 , Wales ended its flying bishop post and there has not been one resignation from the clergy and defection to Rome. prior to this there were threats and huffing and puffing of course.The Church in Wales bishops called their bluff. By the way it… Read more »
Thank you Bishop Pete. Much will depend on the Code of Practice but one wonders whether the circle can be squared.A lot of time has been spent already in the attempt. The problem is surely that different people will have different sticking points as the +Ebbsfleet letter shows. I suspect that from the moment the Ordinariate was announced some saw that as Plan A whatever happened at Synod, and we do seem to have a more sectarian sort of conservative evangelical now who seem itching to bring in episcopal hands from overseas and set up parallel structures.The difference I notice… Read more »
“…it will come to an end eventually, and those opposed will have no choice. “
Yes, but the same could be said about any number of English clergy and laity who opposed changes in their time, couldn’t it? Some in the English Church opposed Mass in the vernacular, married clergy, and the Glorious Revolution, to name a few issues from centuries past. Yes, sooner or later the projected change happens, and those opposed have no choice. The alternative would seem to be a static Church.
Perry B: “The difference I notice looking back from my perch in retirement is that in the past we seemed to want to stay together dispite our differences, now we are much keener to “unchurch” each other and act as if “our” group is the only legitimate one. The centrifugal forces seem to be making the running and the cenripetal are correspondingly weak.” Yes, this is a very interesting observation. I wonder whether one reason for it might be the decline in the prestige of the C of E as an institution (it certainly wasn’t shared doctrine that kept the… Read more »
Dear Fr Mark, Im sure you are right.Remember the 50’s saw something of an “Anglican revival” numbers wise and morale was high in the early 60’s.Yes there were doctrinal tensions and differences of churchmanship, but the evangelicals used 1662 pretty neat/mattins and evensong and wore robes.Anglo-caths mostly used the interim rite but from the congregations point of view this had a lot of prayerbook in it ( and a lot of priestly muttering!).We all sang a lot of common hymns, pretty well all went to chapter ( and yes the clergy were all very much the same sort of chaps… Read more »
Bill is correct that clergy have frequently overcome their own entrenched opposition in order to adapt to the changing field. The current uncatholic “flying bishops” scheme preempted the need to do what had always been done – viz. to adapt.
In previous ages, clergy of the Chuch of England were far more adaptable.
The illustrious House of Hanover
and Protestant succession:
To these I lustily will swear
(while they retain possession),
for in my faith and loyalty
I never once would falter,
and George my laweful King shall be
(unless the times do alter).