Thinking Anglicans

Not to worry Dr. Williams, your Anglican Covenant campaign was soundly defeated in the dioceses of England and sidetracked-to-oblivion elsewhere…at least, we don’t have to worry about being persecuted or prosecuted (too much) at Church. Our sisters and brothers in Christ who happen to be LGBTI human beings are safe from you now.

Ease up on yourself, we don’t want you to feel ¨thick skinned¨ anymore just because you let me/we/us down.

We should just “grow up.” Here are examples where our gay teens didn’t get the chance to grow up.: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/07/michele-bachmann-teen-suicide http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2096922/9-student-suicides-Michele-Bacmanns-Minnesota-linked-anti-gay-bullying.html http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/gay-bullying-statistics.html http://abcnews.go.com/US/gay-teen-suicide-sparks-debate/story?id=11788128 http://www.lambda.org/youth_suicide.htm Rowan Williams thinks teen suicide is “mild discomfort?” What an outrage against humanity that man is. The murder of gay activists in Africa, Russia, and gay people on the streets of New York is “mild discomfort?” Let alone the beatings. That isn’t persecution? As an adult, my experience has been to lose jobs despite excelling in my field. I’d be homeless, or horrifically impoverished if I didn’t have family. So for those without means, this discrimination… Read more »

Cynthia, I think you’ve seriously misunderstood what Williams was saying. The people he was telling to ‘grow up’ were western *Christians* who claim they are being ‘persecuted’ (including, implicitly, those who say that it’s ‘persecution’ when they get prosecuted for homphobic behaviour). He was contrasting this with places where Christians are in danger of their life because they are Christians. Williams does not say *anything* about gay people needing to grow up. He does shilly-shally about the question of whether he’s let them down, when the answer’s clearly yes, but he is not saying negative things about them in this… Read more »

Cynthia
Our former Archbishop may have all the failings you list. But he was plainly not intending the challenge to ‘grow up’ to be addressed to the vulnerable community you speak for and belong to. Quite the reverse. He is saying to people being mildly inconvenienced ‘there are people out there who are being seriously persecuted’.

But – ‘What an outrage against humanity that man is.’ Please. This honours no one.

It’s easy to get the wrong end of the stick when emotionally involved and hurting as Lgbti Anglcians are and do. Yes, my reading is that Williams is speaking out about those Christians – a handful of anti-gay MPs, a few peers like lords Dear & Singh; former archbishops of Canterbury, and of Rochester, and those bodies (‘Christian Institute’et al), which love to go to Court,claiming their Victim Status. (“If we cannot use the law to oppress lgbt it leaves feeling marginalised, and indeed victimised.”) So “grow-up !” is indeed a good retort to them. I have to say, I… Read more »

While I too think Cynthia misunderstood, her central point stands. Rowan Williams let down lgbt persons because he never saw us Church, and therefore, as often prosecuted and persecuted members of Christ’s own Body, prosecution and persecution often done by fellow Christians, including by Anglican bishops. In his tenure as ABC he spoke more than once publicly of our need for conversion but he never countenanced that it might be the rest of the Body that needed an attitude adjustment toward those who are lgbt members. He had an opportunity to humanize us, and he chose the institutions of Church… Read more »

Given that Lord Williams is one of the smartest, most intellectual, and most spiritual men to occupy the See of Canterbury in memory, perhaps one might take another look at the strategy of the failed Covenant. Could it be that it was his attempt to placate the troubled fringe, knowing that ultimately the CofE would turn it down? I have always said that he would never allow the Episcopal Church, first daughter of Anglicanism, to be expelled. He left us with our membership and status intact. The Communion was still more or less in one piece when he moved to… Read more »

One cannot but think that ++Rowan was inordinately influenced by conservative elements in the Church of England – and those now known as the GAFCON Primates – to back down on his own conscientious beliefs about gender and sexuality. The evidence of his seminal publication ‘The Body’s Grace’, written before his election to Canterbury, had given the LGBT community hope for enlightenment on the contentious issues that had dogged the Communion from the time of George Carey’s acceptance of the demands of certain African Primates for a Gay-Free Communion. Being a person who had regard for what he may have… Read more »

‘The risk of being reduced to an NGO, another woolly, well-meaning liberal thinktank or ambulance service – that’s not a fate I would relish for my church, he said’

Is this a mild warning to Justin Welby about becoming do-gooders re Pay Day Loaners or a warning about the dangers of being sidetracked from the Church’s central mission? Or is he saying something else? I wondered at first if it was a gentle swat towards Justin but am now not sure.

“There is therefore still ample opportunity to either thrill or disappoint.”

Of course there is! We’re Christians. We live in hope. Reconciliation and Redemption Are Us (an American reference).

No matter how hurt and angry I get, or anyone else gets, we live in that hope. Even I believe there’s hope for Rowan, he needs to get out more, and listen rather than talk. Perhaps that is the story of our common journey, listening to each other’s stories is where the action is. Stories are the stuff of the Holy Spirit and of Revelation, and ultimately, compassion.

At least, former archbishop Rowan Williams is not afraid to admit his mistakes. We’ve never heard a word of regret for his mistakes from the architect of the current mess in the Communion – Lord Carey! One feels that Rowan was dragged unwillingly into the fray, whereas his predecessor was a willing co-author of the disaster – from which GAFCON was raised up on wings of misplaced enthusiasm for division that need not have occurred. Rowan deserves credit for his personal integrity against overwhelming odds. He never actually repented of “The Body’s Grace”, and he is now probably regretful that… Read more »

“He did keep the Anglican communion together” Really??? Proof please??? It didn’t look that way from over here (the States). And if African human rights abusers were kept in at the expense of our LGBT people, then that’s a pretty gross injustice. We have 1500 hate crimes per year and too much LGBT teen suicide (exacerbated by “Christians”). Did Rowan keep it together over the bodies of our dead teens? That’s exactly what it looks like. Because all of the perpetrators feel affirmed in their hate by the church, and the likes of Rowan Williams fed their affirmation. If marginalization… Read more »

I fear some of us are missing Cynthia’s point. Williams rightly tells spoilt rightwingers to stop whinging about their persecution simply because they are being challenged, but he is apparently blind to the manner in which his leadership was complicit in the real persecution of LGBTI people worldwide. His “gay friends” are the tip of an iceberg that seems only now to be coming into his line of sight.

Williams’s opinions no longer matter. And as for our varying variations on them ….

I would like to be more charitable. But the problem is that Rowan didn’t listen to us and our problems. Without listening or meaningful dialogue, he prioritized human rights abusers above our well being. His proclamations seem utterly disconnected to reality, including the reality of suffering. How does one get through to someone this dense, this sure that his privileged bubble is the story? He needs to see the suffering. It isn’t that hard to walk in his shoes. I have a number of leadership roles, clearly in more humble circumstances. But some of my roles involve children. And there… Read more »

Thank you Helen. Your challenge is absolutely right. Reading Andrew Goddard’s acclaimed biography ‘Rowan Williams: his legacy’ reveals just what an extraordinarily wide ranging and costly job RW undertook on behalf of the church as ABC and the personal faith of transparent depth that somehow sustained him through this largely thankless task. Flawed? Who isn’t? But the measure of his legacy is not for reducing to a single issue – however much we hoped and (still) need something different here.

I think it was always obvious who RW was criticising, and his comments may have some impact on the silly people who allege ‘persecution’ by the liberal state. Indeed, his comments could include those silly people who claim that equal marriage is an assault upon marriage.

“I’m really appalled by the tone of some of the contributions above.” For years I was appalled by Dr. Williams’s lack of leadership, his own willingness to discriminate (Jeffrey John, Gene Robinson), and his eagerness to sacrifice the diversity of the Anglican communion on a supposed altar of institutional monolithicity. None of that worked. Much of it was a disaster for the Church of England and for the Communion. And now, ironically enough, Pope Francis is asking “Who am I to judge?” Which suggests that the whole Williams maintain-the-Communion project was built on a wrong premise: that Rome would never… Read more »

Exactly, Jeremy. And Erika, Rowan makes it clear that he was including US and UK Christians. And he has yet to make it clear that he understands that LGBT’s are a vulnerable population and that he made our lot worse.

Rowan was the discriminator in chief of the Anglican Communion. And for those who blow it off as saying he was merely imperfect on one issue, the issue was human rights. It’s pretty bad to be on the wrong side of human rights. It’s pretty bad to contribute to a narrative of suffering.

This rushing to judgement by some contributors does nothing to enlighten anyone about what Rowan actually did. Cynthia, have you actually read what Rowan said- outside the pages of the Guardian I mean? You still don’t seem to understand who he was talking about. And no, you have not walked in his shoes until you make some effort to understand the choices he faced- which you may well disagree with but which you, even in your pain, ought to consider. Yes Rowan wanted to keep the Communion together. Has it occurred to some of you that he would have no… Read more »

Sorry you’re offended, Clare. But a number of gay Americans did take offense, and his clarification did not acknowledge the suffering of LGBT people. (I don’t think Rowan was clear enough, and I do think that occasionally there are problems of American and British English not lining up as we expect). Human Rights have never been achieved without people speaking out about the harm that abuse causes. Can you think of one? Domestic violence? Apartheid? Civil Rights? I’m offended that Christians interfered with school anti-bullying policies. A practice that lead to epidemics of teen suicides. And the Church, including the… Read more »

Lord Williams continues to manipulate by using his academic persona and casting himself in victim mode. Twice in his life he chose to be an archbishop, of Wales and of Canterbury. He is one of the most ruthless clerics you could ever experience. He makes very considered choices as to whom he ‘consults’ or commissions with tasks. He engineers the answers he wants, where ever possible. He has ‘risen’ from his humble, middle class background and is now enjoying (as he has before) a splendid life style, a comfortable income, and positions of significance. Should one not admire his skill… Read more »

Clare, I’m surprised that you believe that Thinking Anglicans is not the right forum to discuss the hurt people suffer at the hands of other Christians. To me, one of the hallmarks of liberal theology is that it looks at the effect lived out theology has on real people’s lives. Sometimes, what sounds pure and simple and true in theory turns out to be hurtful and damaging in real life. By their fruit shall you tell them, we are told. That has to be the ultimate test for everything we do and believe. How can we account for the effects… Read more »

Well who would be a leader?
This is merciless.
Much harder to accept is that one of the most significant factors in the success or failure of leaders are the impossible and contradictory needs and expectations of the ‘followers’ they inherit with the job. That’s us.
I find myself pondering what ‘growing up’ means as a follower in such a conflicted church.

You are absolutely right Clare. Rowan’s comments were perfectly clear, and I suspect Cynthia knows it: it’s been pointed out often enough. But it’s easier to blame this demon figure of her imagination, Rowan Williams, than admit her mistake, because otherwise she might find herself having to apologise for her wholly unacceptable language. Cynthia’s egregious verbal diarrhoea aside, what strikes me about Rowan’s dettractors here is the blinkered nature of their judgements and their sheer arrogance! Have none of you read Jesus’ warnings about judgement? Rowan is being judged on his record on one thing alone (without any sense either… Read more »