Updated again Wednesday
See report of previous meeting here.
There is a further meeting this week, from Monday to Wednesday, of the Church of England College of Bishops, to discuss what actions to take in relation to Living in Love and Faith. See here for the programme of meetings, leading up to the General Synod meeting in February.
“Bishops will gather for two days to draft the outcomes of the discernment process.”
Several articles have appeared in the past few days. (The first two items are behind a paywall.)
Steven Croft was interviewed in the Telegraph on Saturday: The Bishop of Oxford: ‘The Church is seen as unjust because of its treatment of LGBTQ+ people’
Justin Welby was interviewed in The Times on Monday: Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby chooses silence on gay marriage
Marcus Green wrote this on his blog: Patiently
Jayne Ozanne wrote this on Via Media.News: An Open Letter to Bishops – Your Pastoral Charge
Equal has published Vigils for Equal Marriage while the bishops meet
Christian Today Welby staying quiet on LGBT views
Religion News Service Catherine Pepinster Church of England bishops head for showdown on marriage for same-sex couples
ViaMedia.News Charlie Bell Unity and the Myth of Neutrality
Premier Christianity Christopher Landau Welby won’t give his opinion on gay marriage. Perhaps Dietrich Bonhoeffer can help
I will update this article if other items appear.
Steven Croft’s article can be viewed here without payment. Plain URL below if you prefer to cut and paste
https://digitaleditions.telegraph.co.uk/data/1147/reader/reader.html
I am fairly certain that Jayne’s letter is prophecy. (I suspect her communication to the Pope was also prophetic.) I have said many times that this is about the prevention of harm, not about equality, but Jayne has expressed it so much better than I have ever managed to do.
Jesus also charged Peter to <i>”Feed my lambs…. Feed my sheep.”</i> “The Church is Christ’s property, not Peter’s. … Peter must take up the pastoral ministry for those redeemed “with the precious blood of Christ” (1 Pet 1:19). … It is a service to him who alone is ‘the shepherd and guardian of our souls’ (1 Pet 2:25), as well as to all whom Christ, the good shepherd, has redeemed at the cost of his sacrifice on the cross. The content of this service is also clear: as a shepherd leads his sheep to where they can find food and… Read more »
My hope is that the bishops will make proposals that respect and protect the consciences of the diverse theological Christians who are faithful members of the Church of England, and devoted to God. My hope is that evangelicals (of various kinds), liberals, catholics, will all be valued and allowed space to practise their beliefs – no one group dominating the consciences of the other. If people are not willing to accept that accommodation then perhaps they need to go looking for a different tradition, because dominating others and demanding uniformity is exactly the wrong way to go. It will only… Read more »
By their fruits Ye shall know them Susannah.
I know the fruit of the evangelical church where I worshipped for over 20 years, and where my children grew up. They showed so much care and love towards my kids, especially in the traumatic years of my transition. All three of my children are now committed Christians. The same church has provided around £150,000 to help my daughter build a children’s centre in Uganda, which cares each day for over 50 children with malnutrition. A month ago my daughter sent an appeal for further funds to build a community centre, for the same very marginalised community, who face pitiful… Read more »
You keep writing about respecting conscience. Putting that into the language of Jayne Ozanne, you keep writing about the feelings of the shepherds when what matters is the safety of the sheep with whose care they have been entrusted. Jayne is right. The necessary decision must be what is needed to keep vulnerable people safe. Once that is decided, anything which promotes equality or respects conscience is desirable but we need to approach this on the basis of necessity first, then desirables. Or put it in a parable of a shepherd reporting to his master. “Master, several of the sheep… Read more »
Recently you said (in response to a comment by myself) that provision for conservatives could be provided through a province. But isn’t the logical outcome from your comment about “harm” to have no conservative churches?
The important thing is to shield the vulnerable. If all parish churches are safe that will be achieved. If, alongside that, there are additional churches which preach against same sex marriage I don’t see a problem so long as that’s clear before people attend. A separate province would achieve that, so long as any gaps in parish provision from its creation are infilled.
I am hoping that in addition we get legislation banning conversion therapy which covers religious settings.
Kate, I feel you are being characteristically compassionate, but I don’t feel you are being realistic. There are many parish churches which are both evangelical and socially/theologically conservative on this issue. Indeed, it is a simple fact that the Church is divided on sexuality. Given that – to date – it’s claimed that 1000 churches would like to affirm gay marriages (I admit I believe more than that would)… then this is still a minority number, and it seems unlikely that the Bishops would demand parish churches stop preaching against same-sex relationships. That is, frankly, just not going to happen.… Read more »
Part of The Times article can be viewed here: https://anglicanmainstream.org/archbishop-of-canterbury-justin-welby-chooses-silence-on-gay-marriage/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=archbishop-of-canterbury-justin-welby-chooses-silence-on-gay-marriage
Jayne – one of the most moving things I have read around this – thankyou.
Even on its own terms, “unity” fails. Metropolitan silence or not, people with diametrically opposed views cannot possibly unite. Toleration’s the best conceivable outcome, and even that’s a slender hope (very much against the spirit of the age). The odds of some kinda mutual accomodation can only rise if we are at least honest with one another. Personally, I’ve found traditionalists are pleasantly shocked when I accept that they’ve interpreted the “clobber verses” correctly, but we disagree about biblical authority. We can at least talk frankly then.
James I hope that you discuss with them other ‘clobber verses’ : chopping off offending hands and feet the plucking out of offending eyes; Matthew 25; the remarriage of divorcees: those looking at women lustfully have already committed adultery – the Bible is full of ‘em. Some evangelicals can be very priggish about the Bible but in my experience they like to choose the verses with which to be so.
Indeed, I suspect we’re all selectively literalist. For example, some liberal Anglicans are extremely conservative when it comes to apostolic succession or the proper Anglican way of worship or the role of the established Church.
Absolutely, although many are socially liberal but theologically conservative.
Personally, this liberal Anglican has no problem with lay presidency (why separate Word from other sacraments?), nor am I concerned with a physical apostolic succession. I’ll even stretch to this year’s Geneva gowns. 😉
I’m not sure you can be described as an Anglican. Any ordinand being told they need to be a priest to celebrate the Eucharist, then being told it’s not necessary, needn’t bother being ordained in the first place. A Church without clergy is called The Society of Friends.
Richard Foster, who introduced a whole generation of young Christians to the classical spiritual disciplines with his amazing book ‘Celebration of Discipline’, is a Quaker pastor. So I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the Society of Friends doesn’t have clergy. I would agree, however, that it doesn’t seem to be infected with clericalism.
It’s worth noting that some members of the Religious Society of Friends are ordained Anglican clergy….. who accept Quaker ideas about the importance of conscience and the sacramentality of life generally.
I doubt even the most enthusiastic member of Sydney Diocese wants to abolish what they’d term the presbyterate, merely expand the aspects of it open to laity (as ministry of the Word is already).
Personally, I don’t have strong feelings on the matter, but wouldn’t want to veto others. Which nicely defuses that “Gotcha!” the moment it’s deployed. (“Well if you can [liberal reform] we want lay presidency!” “Sure.” “Ah ha … wait what?”)
Sydney Diocese also isn’t Anglican.
You are making my point for me, FrDavid.
If one looks at how Jesus approached questions intended to trip Him up, it’s pretty obvious He had little tolerance for clobber verses.
That’s a nice insight, thanks Kate.
Matthew 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Actually Jesus took all of the Law Very seriously.
Since those sections of the Sermon on the Mount are plainly metaphorical, we don’t discuss them in that context! I do however frequently raise the ban on divorce, which has led to some … forthright debates.
Some evangelicals have a supercessionist view of the Old Testament, but if they haven’t there are plenty of clobber verses there for them to chew over. Lending money at interest; clothes of mixed fibres; menstruating wives …
Don’t forget those other so called “clobber” verses in Exodus 20.
The problem with Archbishop Welby saying he has to keep silent regarding his view of same-sex marriage because he has to be a focus of unity is that he does not trouble to keep silent about his views on plenty of other issues. If all of our church leaders always remained gnomic on contentious issues of every kind because they are so, well, contentious, then perhaps there would be some logic to Welby’s view. But in fact bishops and archbishops are eager to make outspoken interventions in controversial matters all the time (for example, regarding the Rwanda immigration-handling plan). What… Read more »
Beautifully put Mark
One of the problems with Justin Welby saying that he has to not give his view as Archbishop is that he has already given his view and now apparently tells “I am not sure I will be able to say during my time in this job. I can express my own view as far as I know my own mind — and it doesn’t change.” What I recall him saying before is that he “had about a thousand questions”. I admired Rowan Williams hugely but he also had expressed his views about same sex relationships in very positive terms before… Read more »
Dietrich Bonhoeffer is correct:
Since many here wouldn’t recognise that attitude as compatible with Jesus as He is described in the Gospels, presumably we should all rebuke you and break off fellowship? And what of those in the congregation who are rich by global standards because they haven’t given their belongings to the poor? Anyone who owns a house or a car. Anyone who spends on holidays. Presumably we should rebuke them and throw them out of the fellowship? That will include any minister with housing which s/he hasn’t opened to the homeless and asylum seekers. In practice that isn’t going to happen, is… Read more »
Throughout scripture there is a division between “holiness” and “sin”. These categories cannot be replaced by “inclusion and alienation”. Nor, can you hide behind Christ’s call for us to be “perfect” by deflecting onto other sins of our times. We’re all sinners in our own way. What’s important is that we see these sins for what they are, repent and “turn around”. It’s the pastors (the Shepherds God calls to lead and feed Christ’s flock) who are charged with teaching God’s word and helping us see the division of truth from falsehood; sin from love of God and neighbour. May… Read more »
A recent poll on the BBC indicated 5% of people identified as bi-sexual compared to 4% as Lesbian/Gay. Will there be anything in LLF proposals for them?
What would bi people need that isn’t already needed by gay or straight people? I would have thought being able to marry the person you love and intend to spend the rest of your life with is a pretty universal desire regardless of the gender(s) of the people you’re inclined to fall in love with.
Does one’s “self identity” change sexual morality and Christian ethical teachings? Attractions are not actions. One’s desires are not a core part of our identity. We’re made in the image of God, so every person’s core identity is that of a creature of God called to eternal life. As Augustine stated in his prayer, “Lord, you have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you.” And as Paul confesses, “I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin… Read more »
One of the criticisms I have heard of the LLF material is that it barely acknowledges that bisexual people exist.
I’m not conversant with the CofE jigs and reels around LLF. However, I really appreciate Jayne Ozanne’s piece. It is a wise, strong and compassionate message grounded in the pastoral heart of the feed my sheep narrative. “I would therefore suggest that it is this that you are called to – above all else! Taking care of people.” Those words should be in front of every pastor of every type every day. Near the end is the observation, “If we are honest, we have spent hours discussing certain biblical texts, but we have spent precious little time discussing the harm that we… Read more »
Archbishop Welby is reluctant to state his views on ‘Living in Love and Faith’, saying his role is to be a “focus of unity” for the Anglican Communion, which is deeply divided on these issues. “But the role of archbishop is to be a focus of unity. That isn’t just convenient or pragmatic. In Christian thinking, that is part of God’s call to church leaders. Therefore I have to be convinced before God that it’s the right moment to do it — and not just politically.” John Paul II saw the role of Church leadership differently. He wrote in… Read more »
The Christopher Landau article is an example of a loaded question argument (indeed there are a couple of loaded questions in there). His ploy with regard to Bonhoeffer only works if you first agree with Landau’s biblicist assumptions about ‘sin’ and his opinion that same sex marriage is sinful. He is wrong about that. Cute debating tactic however.