David Monteith ViaMedia.News PRIDE: More than Sparkling Spandex
Stephen Parsons Surviving Church To Jay or not to Jay, that is the Question for C/E Safeguarding
Paul Middleton ViaMedia.News Church of Scotland Welcomes Trans Members and Ministers
Martyn Snow Church of England Newspaper LLF: unity matters – it really matters
Language matters and although I’m sure the Bishop of Leicester is sincere and means well I find his deeply bureaucratic language profoundly alienating. I present here an inspiring and moving alternative way of addressing profound theological differences but a solution filled with love and humanity. Why oh why does the Church of England find love and humanity so difficult ? “A few us began to meet: four clergy who were opposed to the ordination of women and four newly ordained women priests. Our early meetings, as you might imagine, were profoundly uncomfortable, tense and difficult. But we committed to meeting… Read more »
Bishop Snow doesn’t say anything new and his weekend in Leicester sounds painful to me. Quite why anyone would repeatedly spend time with people who hate them is beyond me. That weekend could have been better spent making love, walking in the countryside, with family or a group of friends. LLF was doomed from the start but now it’s become masochistic.
Don’t forget that some people are into masochism. And on another recent thread we were encouraged to explore assorted kinks…
I understand why someone is driven to repeatedly spend time with people who hate them. I’m off to church tomorrow for some of that…because the haters should not be allowed to run the church.
If ordained women hadn’t been prepared to repeatedly spend time with people who hate us, there would be far fewer priests in the C of E now.
The queer bashers go home after their weekend’s sport feeling vindicated. The queer people on the other hand have had their identity and integrity rubbished. Black people wouldn’t be expected to spend 72 hours justifying their existence with racists.
Yes, it’s very damaging. Ordained women – especially from the earlier years – know it well.
And women of course only achieved patchy success. Significant chunks of the church where ordained women are not welcome or are constrained in what they can do; bolstered by elaborate legal protections and special provisions dressed up as ‘mutual flourishing’. Difficult to see the wider Anglican Communion accepting a woman as Archbishop of Canterbury.
Of course individuals vary in what they can handle. However many people of colour have spent thousands of hours praying and worshipping alongside, and socialising with, fellow-Christians who did not accept us as fully equal on racial grounds, as well as sometimes a few who actually did hate us, while edging towards greater equality. There is still a long way to go and, in some ways, things are going backwards. And open racism still occurs, including in supposedly affirming spaces – humans are imperfect, institutions fallible. Yet, at times, persistence has paid off. Of course some of us are also… Read more »
It seems to me that the Church of England could learn a lot from the Church of Scotland how to debate issues of sex and sexuality. I particularly like the bit that as both (all?) sexes are accepted into ministry that gender reassignment is essentially an irrelevance.
Martyn Snow says: ”a space for those who want to see some development of current arrangements”.
There is already space for that. That is far from understanding the proper space now needed. A space is needed where the development is a reality. We are tired of wanting to see that. Language is important. As our newly nominated bishop has said, “the faithful, pastoral, loving and just way forward is to extend Holy Matrimony to same-sex couples”. That is what now needs to happen.
Or you could just shout the same thing from the sidelines and not contribute anything to the process of trying to reconcile and truly listen to anyone outside of your echo chamber.
Give the guy a break – he is trying to hold together a loose and fraying thread.
Bishop Martyn has made one significant contribution: instead of a progressive/regressive binary he proposes recognising a sizeable group who aren’t ready to decide yet. I think that’s realistic but, perhaps more importantly, in sucking as many people as possible into that middle ground he draws the fangs somewhat of those threatening some sort of walking apart if they don’t get their way by minimising their number. Potentially it’s a very significant development.
Martyn thanks for your reply. I don’t understand what you are asking for. How is providing ‘a space for those who want to see some development of current arrangements’ any different to what we currently have? And I might be on the sidelines in retirement but for several years I was a member of General Synod involved in the shared conversations, debates etc ad nauseam. I’ve contributed to the process. To be told that we can have “a space for those who want to see some development of current arrangements” feels, frankly, like another kick in the teeth. Vincent: I’m… Read more »
Who is your new bishop?
Exeter
I love it when Bishops start quoting scripture or in this case Paul. We all know what he thought about gay sex!
Maybe it is more accurate to suggest that you think you know what Paul thought of gay sex….( and I am presuming you don’t just mean sex which is cheerful ??)
I suppose we also all know what Paul thought about the role of women, and slavery, but possibly you don’t agree with Paul on that either nowadays?
Paul encouraged women in ministry (see e.g. Rom 16), and encouraged Philemon to consider his slave Onesimus a brother. Why would we disagree?
“Let your women keep silence in the churches,” “the head of the woman is the man,” and, if you think Ephesians was written by Paul himself, “slaves obey your masters.” Clearly Paul did not envisage women having leadership roles (even if he does mention some as fellow workers), either in churches or elsewhere; nor did he call for the abolition of slavery – his point was rather that, despite being a slave, you are still a brother in Christ. That is an acceptance of slavery. We don’t, I take it, agree with either of those positions now.
The task of interpreting scripture means paying attention to its original context. To take your example from the Ephesian church. Ephesus was a city dominated by the huge temple to the goddess Artemis. This cult was led by women and hostile to men. Women were used to being dominant in society and religion. Men were routinely marginalized. Imagine the problems when converts joined the church from that cult. Firm pastoral guidance was needed. Firstly, says Paul, ‘let a woman learn …’ (1Tim 2.11). This was very new in both Jewish and Gentile society of his day. Education was only for men. Paul is being… Read more »
I agree with the idea of context mattering but another part of the context is that while Paul had a number of spiritual encounters with Jehovah he didn’t learn from Jesus Himself and benefit from His earthly ministry. He obviously spent some time with the Disciples but really not very long, and his relationship with them was tense at times. On the basis of context it’s hard to be confident that Paul’s teaching was fully aligned with what Jesus taught. If something Paul taught seems inconsistent with the Gospels that’s probably because it is inconsistent… and wrong.
You don’t consider the diaconate (Phoebe) or the apostolate (Junia) leadership roles? How do you reconcile Paul’s encouragement of Priscilla in her teaching role, with 1 Tim 2:12?
I don’t think it is at all controversial to say that Paul held the normal views of his time regarding the position of women, slavery, and homosexuality too. That is why the Church continued to hold them for many centuries until recently, after all. (And yes, I do have a degree in theology, before the patronising comments start…) My point is that I don’t feel bound to view any of those three issues the same way as someone 2000 years ago did, and I don’t give Paul’s particular prejudices as expressed in his Epistles – which I think were intended… Read more »
But I don’t think Paul did hold the normal views of his time. He was radical in some ways, as David Runcorn argues above. And, while holding true to first principles, he adapted his practice to the culture of this city or province he was in. That’s in part why some of his epistles seem to disagree with each other, and/or with his actual practice as recorded in Acts or alluded to in the Epistles.
Thanks Janet. I agree. The NT church is an emerging and evolving one. It is work and faith in progress. So are we. There is no one understanding of ecclesiology, leadership or patterns of ministry or relationships between men and women from example – or settled doctrine. The epistles thus offer the earliest examples of places and communities where the teaching is Jesus is being faithfully worked out. So I struggle separating them from the teaching of Jesus in the gospels precisely because they are the earliest attempts, in varying cultures and contexts, to faithfully apply his teaching. Clues and… Read more »
The problem today, therefore, is that some people view the letters not as advice or instruction to specific groups of people at specific times and places but as “legislation” to be followed by everyone forever.
“Paul said this and it’s in the Bible,” so it must be true, for all people and all time.
I agree. Not this not a new issue of course. There have always been varied approaches to the bible. The issue is not what ‘the bible says’ so much as how and why it says it. There are also some people who do not believe in the bible as revelation or authority at all of course.
David, I can strongly agree with your thesis that we should see the teachings of Paul as being continuity with the teachings of Jesus, an attempt to develop and apply his teachings in a new context (or in fact, a variety of new and different contexts. But that approach asks us to be aware of what is the same, but also what is different. What has been modified or let go of in order to suit the new contexts? One thing that has not been mentioned is that Jesus was teaching in a specifically Jewish context, in Galilee and Jerusalem.… Read more »
St Paul was happy to have women in ministry – as long as they didn’t speak in Church!
I thought it was very widely accepted, even by relatively conservative biblical scholars like N T Wright, that Paul’s injunctions on women’s silence were made into a very particular cultic context where women had been dominant to the exclusion of men?
See for example: https://youtu.be/os8M9ln2cM0?si=3CMfxkjg3YHtNkh5
I might be misremembering something here, but I thought it was thought that a), 1 Timothy isn’t held to have been written by Paul, and that b), the verse in 1 Corinthians (14:33–35) was a later interpolation inserted into the text? (As, amongst other reasons, verses 33–35 completely break up the flow of thought on prophesying in a really odd way.)
Well, that will settle the matter! The church catholic has waited until a view of terribly recent vintage–itself far from settled scholarship–to now know the ‘truth.’ Chronological snobbery and (I say this as a professional biblical scholar) ‘let’s throw this into the welter of what might be so-ism.’
Christopher surely it’s possible to say that more recent developments on scholarship shed greater light on the truth? If not we might still believe Hebrews was written by Paul – to name one obvious example.
Where does more recent understanding become what you call chronological snobbery?
More recent developments in biblical studies also include 1) appreciation of the canonical form of biblical texts, and movements away from historicizing hermeneutics, and 2) humble return to the history of interpretation before modernity’s occlusions. These two emphases are more “recent” developments. Reading TA, I feel I have gone backwards, not forwards. Typical of the field of biblical scholarship are conferences like this one.
https://angelicum.it/event/scripture-conference-2024/
PS. Ancient interpreters (Origen et al) did not reflexively declare Hebrews written by Paul. The letter itself does not make this clear (see the postscript). Their Greek was better than modernity’s (since it was their own language) and they knew the letter did not have the same vocabulary and syntax as the 13 letters. The Pauline letter collection is extremely stable in order. The one book that moves? Hebrews. Why? because its place in that stable collection appears to be an outlier. What is frustrating in your comment is the total unawareness of the status of Hebrews in pre-modernity. What… Read more »
I was fully aware of that Chris, thanks.
“…surely it’s possible to say that more recent developments on scholarship shed greater light on the truth? If not we might still believe Hebrews was written by Paul.” AG
Though it was understood in the third century it might not have been written by Paul, the King James Bible still referred to it in that way and for about 1200 years that was the most common way of identifying it. But this isn’t the main point. The question remains – at what point does a movement in scholarship tip over to chronological snobbery.
The main question remains — why is there so little historical consciousness and awareness in the mind of modernity? Where did the whiggish idea of inevitable ‘progress’ invade our thinking? David McCulloch’s fine book, The Greatest Journey, tells of Americans in the 1830 venturing across the Atlantic, and going by diligence from l’Havre to Paris. Passing by Rouen, these New World protestants fell on their faces. They acknowledged that great things *lay behind them* and not inevitably in the future. Why should we assume that modern questions (is this verse to be pulled out of an Epistle due to this… Read more »
“Views on this matter ebbed and flowed across the centuries in the history of interpretation.”
Thank you. That was one of my points. But still I ask
when do changes in interpretation – which we agree ebb and flow across the centuries – become what you call ‘chronological snobbery’.
It is essential to be aware of the ebb and flow, and also to be aware that some of that is often due to fashion. There are fashions in the academy just as there are in, say, film and television production. Or art.
Your point was stated very clearly. “…surely it’s possible to say that more recent developments on scholarship shed greater light on the truth? If not we might still believe Hebrews was written by Paul.”
You are starting to flannel.
‘The King James Bible was commissioned in 1604 — I don’t understand “and for about 1200 years that was the most common way of identifying it.”’
If you re-read Andrew’s comment more carefully, you will see that he’s referring to the presupposition of Pauline authorship of Hebrews being the common view for 1200 years. Not the King James Version.
Thanks. The comment was confusing to me — not least because the idea of a “1200 year consensus” is a misleading assumption linked to a date pulled out of the air. From Origen to the KJV? Neither Luther nor Calvin held that Hebrews was written by Paul. To name but two in this 1200 year window. The NT manuscripts show 4 blocs: Fourfold Gospels. Acts and General Epistles. The Pauline Letter Collection. Revelation. Hebrews does not belong to blocs 1,2 or 4. It has been classified with 3, where it fits most naturally. Paul is never mentioned in the letter,… Read more »
Chris: ok let me amend it to say surely it’s possible sometimes to say that more recent developments on scholarship shed greater light on the truth?
And you still evade the question: Where does more recent understanding become what you call chronological snobbery? Is it chronological snobbery, for example, to say that evolution wasn’t understood when Genesis was written but of course the authors of that book knew a thing or two anyway so let’s ignore evolution.
‘shed greater light on..’
What would you mean (not being Pilate) by ‘truth.’ More light on ‘truth’.
Greater light — is this something about geography (proximity to ‘truth’) or chronology (getting closer to ‘truth’ due to today being after yesterday)?
I am evading nothing. You have invented a new path given the cul de sac of your original one regarding Hebrews,
Christianity is about Truth.
I am not sure what you are saying about ‘greater light on the truth.’
It wasn’t a cul de sac. For 1200 years people believed Hebrews was written by Paul. But I’ve offered another example.. you don’t have to engage with it. But the evasion remains.
Christopher if you want to question what light and truth are about its slightly off topic and too long a discussion here. By all means e mail me and I’m happy to engage.
I am evading nothing except torturous thinking.
I look forward to our correspondence by e mail.
Kindly don’t flatter yourself. I regularly question the investment in time I already make in this forum. Luther and Calvin both held that Paul was not the author of Hebrews, and they lived in the imaginary “1200 year window” you have created. Yet you drone on regardless! “For 1200 years people believed Hebrews was written by Paul.” Except that they didn’t…
Happily boarding a flight to Rome today to take part in a conference at the Angelicum. Enjoy your back and forth with the Canadian colleague.
Except lots of them did.
Enjoy your conference Christopher.
Andrew you are enmeshed in a battle that is as cultural as it is theological. But the world is a rebel thinker’s oyster. lol. If you can get your hands on it, see: Paul E. Capetz, Historical-Critical Study of the Bible, in Harvard Theological Review. Vol. 104, No. 4, Oct. 2011. pp. 459 ff. Spoiler Alert: “And so, until better instructed, I see no reason to abandon liberal Protestantism’s classic commitment to a mutually enriching dialogue between the ongoing and corrigible traditions of the Reformation and the Enlightenment for the sake of both a self critical understanding of faith and… Read more »
Thanks Rod. I suspect engagement is as futile as usual in trying to navigate this particular cultural road block..
Thanks for the recommendation. Am currently enjoying The afternoon of Christianity a great deal. I will look at your new recommendation next.
I eventually arrived at the same conclusion. I read the article by Capetz from the Harvard Review some time ago. I referenced it because in it he offers a critical view of Brevard Childs, Dale Martin, and your interlocutor Christopher Seitz. I can’t locate a link for it that is not behind a paywall–so to the library if you are really keen. lol. I had several of Childs’ big tomes on my shelf when I was in the parish. I found him most helpful as a preacher when dealing with snippets of biblical books presented overtime in the lectionary. However,… Read more »
Footnote, in searching for Capetz, I came across this article. Have not read it myself. Looks interesting.
Binding and Unbinding the Conscience: Luther’s Significance for the Plight of a Gay Protestant – Paul E. Capetz, 2002 (sagepub.com)
Andrew, this an extract from the article. At least gives a jump off point for access if interested.
Theology and the Historical-Critical Study of the Bible* | Harvard Theological Review | Cambridge Core
He’s a party of one. Most historical critics still laboring in the fields haven’t a clue about Luther (who would be stunned to see his ‘return to the Bible’ turned into ‘create a history of religion’). If you asked Luther who is responsible for the Pentateuch, he would reply Moses. Isaiah, the prophet Isaiah. The 13 letters of Paul, Paul. An incipient historical critic, he ain’t. The Psalms, what the superscriptions indicate. Even his view on the authorship of Hebrews (not Paul) follows simply from the internal contents and plain sense. Good luck, Paul Capetz! Don’t drag Luther into your… Read more »
I agree. Until about 30-40 years ago it was widely taught that Hebrews was written by Paul; some will have been teaching it much more recently than that.
I confess I don’t follow the logic in all this. ‘Widely taught’ — where, and to what end? In England? In churches? Out of curiosity, how would that change anything in any material way? Seriously. Paul might likely have been quite happy to have the book attributed to him, as augmenting his thought with a more comprehensive view of Christ’s Priesthood (a theme undeveloped in his own letters). I’m puzzled as to why ‘Pauline authorship/or not’ is such a critical index in the case of Hebrews. That sounds like a sort of reverse fundamentalism. Origen’s view seems so much more… Read more »
“In the epistle entitled To The Hebrews the diction does not exhibit the characteristic roughness of speech or phraseology admitted by the Apostle [Paul] himself, the construction of the sentences is closer to the Greek usage, as anyone capable of recognising differences of style would agree. On the other hand the matter of the epistle is wonderful, and quite equal to the Apostle’s acknowledged writings: the truth of this would be admitted by anyone who has read the Apostle carefully… If I were asked my personal opinion, I would say that the matter is the Apostle’s but the phraseology and construction are… Read more »
Good comment. Yes, 1 Cor.14:33-35 does go ‘clunk’ when you read the larger passage for continuity. Whether it is an interpolation, or whether Paul wrote the Pastorals or not ( my money is on not), the larger question is the patriarchal nature of Christianity down the ages. I’m currently reading the late John O’Donoghue. He writes about the systemic sexual neurosis of traditional catholic and fundamentalist traditions, and the fact that, for example, the (R.C.) church would probably prefer married male priests to ordained female priests any day. The former would keep women under control of the patriarchy, no? It… Read more »
Thank you so much Rod. Your last paragraph expresses exactly my own sentiments. Also very good to hear an endorsement of the wonderful work of John O’ Donahue.
I watched a fascinating film at the weekend – Good luck to you, Leo Grande. Amazing performance by Emma Thompson and Daryl McCormack. Its exploration of patriarchy – as just one of the themes – is quite brilliant. It should be required watching for all interested in sexual ethics.
I have been reading John Donahue as part of my reclamation of Celtic heritage and spirituality. He is suitably complex as both an academic and a mystic. I will have to look for the film. Story and theology go together. I came across a book I wished to read titled, Beyond Bultmann [Bruce Longenecker & Mikeal Parsons, eds. Baylor University Press, 2014.] However, I had not read Rudolf Bultmann since divinity school in the seventies. So as prep I gave myself a refresher and read Bultmann’s essays from 1941 to 1961 [ selected, edited and translated by Schubert Ogden. Fortress… Read more »
I agree…and this
‘tended to focus almost entirely on Bultmann’s solutions while sidestepping his diagnosis leaving it the elephant in the room.’
is spot on.
I think that the RC Church definitely prefers married male priests to ordained female priests because of course it already has a number of married male priests in the Eastern Catholic Churches and married ex Anglican priests who have converted to Rome. I think it has always been clear that Priestley celibacy is a discipline not a theological requirement.
All three stances, enforced celibacy, some married priests ( eastern rite, ex-Anglicans and the like), and the opposition to female priests all share a common ground, what Donohue and others refer to as the complete sexual neuroses in the church. I think that extends horizontally to large swaths of Anglicanism and includes homophobia as well.
I agree with you; for academic studies I’d posit questions of authorship and translation issues, but academia is not faith, and for faith studies, it’s more important to question whether certain interpretations honour and value other people (in this case women) or not. In short, for faith, it’s a big “it doesn’t matter; I won’t stand on the letter of the law to disenfranchise women”, and that wins over what various texts from the ancient Mediterranean may or may not have said. If we can look through Jesus’ ministry and see a repeated valuing people above legalistic interpretations of the… Read more »
Indeed academia is not faith. Interestingly current academic debate is populated by variously skilled academics located across the spectrum from believing progressives to neo-fundamentalists to highly accomplished people who do not, or do not any longer, profess to be people of faith. Texts have historical and cultural and religious contexts, and so too do scholars.
follow up, you may get a kick out of this, I’m not a fan; but for what it is worth. lol
https://youtu.be/eRjfDWvGuVQ
I agree with Paul’s letters on everything, because they’re God’s authoritative revelation. I wasn’t aware that Christians were allowed to disagree with the Bible.
So you agree with baptism on behalf of the dead (1Cor 15:29); keeping a list of widows over 60 (1 Tim. 5:9-10); and drinking wine with your water (1 Tim 5:23)? How do you apply those in your life, or the church’s life, today?
For an interesting take on this may I recommend Sarah Pascoe reading on Letters Live on Utube (I think it’s title is ‘Should I smite them?’)
I agree that baptism on behalf of the dead occurred in Paul’s day but he doesn’t commend it.
I agree with keeping track of those people in need of support by the church, such as elderly widows.
I don’t personally have stomach ailments or drink first century water so the latter doesn’t apply.
Paul doesn’t condemn baptism on behalf of the dead, either. He seems to accept the practice. The register of widows seems to have been a formal quasi-order, combining ministry and financial support. How many churches keep a record of widows’ ages (Paul specifies over 60), and expect them to carry out a ministry among women and children? ‘The latter doesn’t apply’ – exactly. You have a made a judgement about the difference between the conditions in which you live, and conditions obtaining in the first century, and have decided you can disregard that verse. You have applied your own interpretation… Read more »
I’ve yet to come across an agreed statement as to what ‘baptism for the dead’ really was, and why it was done. Whatever the practice, it seems to have disappeared apart from Paul’s one reference. As to Hebrews – of course, I was brought up on the AV, which ascribes it to Paul. Reading it in the RSV or NIV shows a very different style of writing. It is actually one of my favourite NT letters, speaking as it does about the divinity and priesthood of Christ and our eternal hopes. In that respect, who actually wrote the original matters… Read more »
The Mormons baptise on behalf of the dead; they stand proxy for their ancestors. But of course they aren’t a Christian church.
What then to do when the Bible disagrees with itself, as in the two very different creation stories in Genesis?
Then there’s the weighty issue of whether people of faith are supposed to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks (Isaiah 2.4; Micah 4.3).
Or are people of faith supposed to beat their plowshares into swords and their pruning hooks into spears (Joel 3.10)?
Decisions, decisions, decisions. What is one supposed to do?
You have to reconcile both positions, because they both must be true. I understand that the Bible contains allegory and I tend evolutionist but I don’t discount any part as false.
It was a relief to read Martyn Snow’s article. For some time now those steering the LLF process seem to have believed that everyone in the Church of England is ready to opt for either a ‘conservative’ or a ‘liberal’ position on this. Those of us who lead non-aligned churches, especially rural churches, know it isn’t so but it’s usually only those with strong views either way who are invited to speak into the ‘conversations’. A ‘large space for those who are undecided, or confused by the whole debate, and see no need to make such a choice at this time’… Read more »
Jane do you think you could share a little more about how you believe the goalposts have moved and what have become the issues that have caused you to want to discern more than you had previously discerned? I’m not altogether sure I understand what you are saying unless you are specific.
Andrew, I will try and put this succinctly. I have long held the view that the privileges of ministry and the goods of marriage should be open to gay Christians and that this is not just permitted but required by the gospel. However, that’s no longer, it seems to me, the main objective of many gay Christians who now see it not as a step forward but as a succumbing to what they would call ‘heteronormativity’. Their goal instead is the ‘queering’ of the church. Trying to pin down what that means is not straightforward but here are two aspects… Read more »
Jane thank you. Some of what you say makes sense to me. But to push back a little, part of your thinking reminds me of those who, during the debates about the ordination of women, said that whilst they wanted to support the idea of women being ordained, they were worried it would lead to the ‘feminisation of the Church’ – whatever they meant by that.
Jane, thanks for clarifying here. I can understand your concerns about such issues. Challenges to the idea of objective truth, and body dysmorphia, are both major issues of concern, inside and outside the church. But whilst queer theorists may be involved in the debate around these two issues, they are not the cause of them. These issues would still be there if queer theory had never come into being, and the church would still need to find a response. Whilst I don’t think it is intentional, your response does bring up concerns for me about slippery slope arguments. https://effectiviology.com/slippery-slope/ How… Read more »
If you were to identify the cause of this surge in dysphoria among the young, Simon, what would it then be? This issue would not be there if queer theory had not come into being. It was not born by miracle. It was pushed into teacher training colleges by activists who made no mystery of their tactics. Denton, the largest legal firm in the world, published them. Stonewall (and their ecclesial satellites, like Inclusive Church) have also pushed gender theory into schools and sympathetic parishes, ruthlessly silencing concerns and dissent. The CofE’s board of education initially denied that Stonewall were… Read more »
Thanks for the question Lorenzo. I will answer in two parts. Firstly body dysmorphia is a longstanding and widespread issue, although perhaps turbocharged by recent developments in social media use among young people. Whilst one issue here may be related to people struggling with issues of gender identity, this is one vary small part of the overall problem. It is swamped numerically by other dysmorphia issues, such as cis-gendered young women (and men) struggling with modern ideals of beauty, or problems around skin lightening and hair straightening faced by non-white people. Let us please be aware of the total issue,… Read more »
There are many of the TA readership who are in a much better place to comment on this than I am, but I’m surprised at the power you are ascribing to teachers over this. I have 4 adult children, 2 daughters and 2 sons . One of my sons is gay . When he was growing up he had ( and still has) a wide circle of female friends but it became clear to me when he was a young teenager that he was not sexually attracted to them as his older brother had been to some of his female… Read more »
Dear Susanna and Simon. Of course it’s not just teachers, it’s churches, social media, peer pressure etc. I am quite aware that a tiny proportion of people have always transitioned, both now and of old. I’m gay and have never claimed that this arose because someone suggested to me ‘that being gay was a fun thing to do.’ This is a straw man. I used to raise awareness for ActUp among transsexuals during the Aids crisis and still know trans adults who share my concern. What I am questioning is the stratospheric increase in children and teenagers who think they… Read more »
Thanks Lorenzo. I agree that there is an increase in numbers presenting with gender related questions. But correlation is not causation. Is the activity you describe the root cause of the increased numbers of children presenting, or a reaction to it? I don’t have the evidence to back it up, but if I was a gambling man I would suggest that one major cause is the vastly increased prevalence of organic chemical pollution in the modern environment. Many of these chemicals are known to have androgenic (hormone disrupting) effects even in low doses. Are we poisoning our children? The world-wide… Read more »
Simon, this may very well be true, I really do not know. But this does not even begin to explain why this extraordinary increase is happening in a single, young demographic and not across all age groups. And it truly cannot explain the extraordinary efflorescence of ‘gender identities’ that accompanies it. Chemicals do not cause one to become ‘non-binary,’ genderqueer, demiboy or demigirl, nor the mania for identity flags or perfectly heterosexual kids now calling themselves queer just because they have a kink. If may link to what one of our (gay) teachers wrote at LGBChristians: https://lgbchristians.org.uk/2024/05/18/a-scandal-for-schools/ This is happening… Read more »
God bless you. If I may say it.
Thank you.
It is helpful to hear proper concern being registered in the factual and informed manner you are doing that. I have wondered if, because the US does not have a socialized health system, one can blithely ignore the huge outlays necessary to fund all the health care costs associated with the recent trans phenomenon (as you describe it well). Not so in European countries, and hence the recent pull back (leaving aside the moral concerns being raised by yourself). Big Pharma takes a heavy toll on the average US citizen.
It’s a very reasonable suspicion. US Pharma companies are making a lot of money from the trans craze at the moment.
Then again, your use of ‘cis-gendered’ betrays that I’m talking to a convert. I don’t believe there is such a thing as gender identity, let alone that it can be at variance from our sexed bodies.
And what do you mean by sexed bodies? It’s not straightforward. The doctor wrote F as my sex at birth, then changed his mind, crossed it out, and wrote M instead. Had he not done so, would I really have been different – and yet the gender critical crowd insist that such “on balance” decisions are final and determinative. Karyotype is complicated. People aren’t simply XX or XY. There is a lot of other alternatives. Then the SRY gene can be attached to chromosomes other than the Y, and is easily damaged because it is a particularly puny gene that… Read more »
There really is gender identity, wich may be at variance with sexed bodies. I know a lot of cases – starting with my son’s daughter. That’s not something “to believe” (what a strange verb). Just observe … and put aside your prejugements.
I won’t, I don’t think. Could you describe a female gender identity vs a male one, please?
Have you read what the outgoing Equality Minister, Kemi Badenoch, said? She said that the gender critical cause had been advanced because they got GC people into leadership positions, including health. https://x.com/KemiBadenoch/status/1799509912143151611?t=1gcCFTYVRbe5Vyw53XkU6w&s=19 Cass was already disputed by international medical experts. That it was clearly politically inspired by gender critical politics really undermines any remaining credibility the report had. Trans children exist. I was one. I have spoken with many others. Like many, I didn’t know that anyone in the world felt like I did. I definitely didn’t know anything of queer theory, transition or anything else. If you bother to… Read more »
Simon, I agree that queer theorists are not the sole authors of the issues of concern we are naming. But they are enthusiastic fellow travellers. Postmodernism, however we construe it, is widely held to be incompatible with Christianity in a number of ways. Current attitudes to bodily identity and integrity in our culture are also at odds with what Christianity teaches. Another red flag for me is the way some queer Christians seem to be attracted to ‘gnostic’ texts’ which are at best sub Christian and at worst heretical. I am, I hope, first and foremost an orthodox Christian and… Read more »
Thank you Jane, that honest answer is incredibly helpful. Perhaps, as so often, queerness or homosexuality is simply the presenting issue, but the fundamental questions go way beyond that to deeper questions of Scriptural authority and how Christianity reacts to post modernism. Now you have explained where you are coming from I can understand that and respect it, although not perhaps agree with it.
The difficult question is how can we work through these deeper issues of scriptural authority etc. within the church in a way that is not toxic or damaging to LGBTQIA people.
With best wishes
Jane I am somewhat puzzled by what you say here, but thank you for your reply.
May I ask if you might summarise what Christianity teaches about human sexuality? Do you think, for example, that ordinands need to agree to abide by the teaching of ‘Issues in human sexuality’ as they are currently asked to do?
Jane, Could I please add my voice to Andrew Godsall’s request for greater clarification about this “wider queer agenda”. I am very sympathetic to the idea that we should pay much greater attention to the views of the vast centre ground within the church. I would argue, however, that this centre ground is not undecided or confused about these issues, but is in fact very sympathetic to moving forward, at speed, with equality in marriage and other more inclusive agendas. It is important that such voices are heard. I submitted this paper to my own diocesan debate making that very… Read more »
Part of the problem is that the Church has been reluctant to explore a theological understanding of a covenant in same sex relationships that might be equivalent to that in Holy Matrimony between a man and a woman. What is required is an open and honest exploration of Biblical examples and themes of same sex relationships, from David and Jonathan through to “the disciple that Jesus loved”; a deeper understanding of the concept of desire, and erotic love at the heart of God’s purposes in creation, and a better exploration of the tradition of same sex relationships and partnerships through… Read more »
In considering inter-personal Biblical covenants, Deuteronomy 15 and Exodus 21 are often overlooked. I do not think they were even mentioned in LLF. A temporary servant wishing to become a permanent slave to his master, entered a covenant through a Biblical rite with legal recognition. The ceremony involved being pinned by the ear to the door of the master’s house. It is a Biblical way in which one man is literally attached to another man’s house, and so figuratively and truly becomes a permanent member of his household. The BCP Marriage service is between two people, husband and wife. Based… Read more »
I fully agree Paul, For heterosexual marriage is possible to argue that such a marriage can be described as “Loving Companionship”. It consists of a complex inter play of spiritual, sexual and companionship elements. Each different element reinforces the other, and the Christian marriage service refers to all three elements Sadly for same-sex relationships the official church has been so focused on the sex that it cannot bring itself to see same-sex marriage in the same holistic way. The only acceptable same-sex love has been the celibate companionship taught by various monastics. However at the grass roots I would argue… Read more »
People talk about queer theory, and have done so on this thread, but seem blind to the assumption they are making in the opposite direction that sex matters. Why? Why does it matter more what sex our immortal being is incarnated into than it does our race, for example? Why is one something which classifies how we are supposed to behave according to Christian orthodoxy, but the other doesn’t? Why is sex more than simply clothes we put on when we incarnate? It can only matter if our intrinsic spiritual being (or soul) is sexed and there is no Biblical… Read more »
Martyn Snow keeps talking about unity, but I think the only unity we have is institutional. We all believe we should have access to this institution, and that our churches should be governed by our interpretation of the Anglican tradition.
I think we should give up talking about unity and go for gracious separation.
I find Martyn Snow’s article quite bizarre. Athanasius Contra Mundum and Cyril of Alexandria are not famous for their ability to find a consensus with their opponents. If they had been at Bishop Snow’s weekend in Leicester, then I don’t think Martyn would have found it so pleasant.
Bishop Snow speaks of a space for the undecided as he outlines step number 85,452 of the LLF process. How about a space for the many who have zoned out and stopped paying attention to this long running (and very expensive) saga?
Please do remember the bishops today as they gather to discern the way forward over Prayers of Love and Faith, and what to present to Synod next month. Holy God please send your Spirit, and help them, and open their hearts to grace.
The thread contains a lengthy conversation about gender. Rather than reply to any one comment, I thought folks at large may be interested in this article from Commonweal. It is one of several pieces on the site regarding Dignitas Infinita. Rights Clashes | Commonweal Magazine “The text of Dignitas Infinita gives no indication that transgender people were consulted during its drafting. In that respect, it is similar to many official Church documents that tell women about their bodies, and about the meaning of their bodies, without having done much listening to them first. It doesn’t surprise me that Church leaders will comfortably opine… Read more »
An interesting comment Rod. One could make a similar parallel comment about other teaching provided by the church.
“It doesn’t surprise me that church leaders will comfortably opine on the phenomenology and significance of sexual experiences they haven’t had…..”
I’m still navigating the complex issues around the gender identity conversations; but what I like about the Maura Tumulty piece is the emphasis on rights, balancing rights when they conflict or appear to conflict. It get’s us beyond the narrow horizon of ‘the bible says’. It seems a struggle for Anglicans to engage the insights of other specialties both theological and secular. And yes, the oping ends up looking a lot like ‘mansplaining’ etc. You would think clergy would get this. Most of us with pastoral experience have had the experience of laity at one time or another pontificating with… Read more »
Since gender identity has featured significantly in this discussion thread, some may find this Catholic online conference on ‘The Church & Gender Theory: Theory, Rhetoric & Practice’ helpful, coming up on the 5th & 6th July. To quote the synopsis: ‘A further implication of this unexamined rhetoric is that the Church’s stance towards various social and political phenomena, along with trans people themselves, remains shaped by the “gender theory”/“gender ideology” frame – while the implications of this framing have gone mostly unexamined. This poses a problem for a Church that wishes to engage reflectively and reflexively with the challenging and… Read more »
Thanks for bringing this to attention. Looks informative. Perhaps the proceedings or otherwise summaries will be available in some fashion afterwards? Noted the presentation on Dignitas Infinita. The comment on that here (North America) seems to be largely by R.C. sources. Canadian politicians on the right have been using the gender controversy as a wedge issue–supported by conservative religious groups (links).
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/new-brunswick-blaine-higgs-policy-713-1.6880751
https://macleans.ca/politics/saskatchewan-school-gender-identity/