Two related pieces from the This estate we’re in blog
Ian Gomersall A Retired Rector’s Reflections Kafka’s Church
Esme Partridge Civitas Restoring the Value of Parishes: The foundations of welfare, community, and spiritual belonging in England
Tim Wyatt Religion Unplugged Racism In The Church of England: ‘Microaggressions All The Time’
Stephen Cherry The New Statesman The Church of England has been my life’s work. What has it done to my soul?
“This Christmas is not going to be an easy one for the Church – but fundamentally, its mission and message have not changed.”
‘The tepid waters of managed decline’, sounds like a warning to the church as much as to the Civil Service.
The phrase ‘natural ecology’ is a new one to me, but one thing struck me straight away. Yes, all things grow and thrive. They also die…. Nothing in a created world lasts for ever, not even the planet we walk on, or the solar system which we orbit around. I’ve seen and heard several church growth movements in the last fifty years; I don’t think any of them have delivered the expected goods. They all seem built around the idea that there is a ready market out there – go and tap into it. This at the same time that Mr… Read more »
Church growth that counts is in love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. That comes from the deepening faith of current members of the church, and from people coming to faith. It doesn’t necessarily come from church initiatives that emphasize process over humanity. Instead, the church’s duty is to proclaim Jesus’ message. Making that message known is the key ‘metric’ the church leadership should assess, if it has to assess metrics. Not how many people attend church X. Not how many people attend a worship event at cathedral Y. But how much is the kingdom of God being… Read more »
I was nodding along in full agreement until I reached your last sentence which seems to be an abrupt volte face of everything else you had said?
But why?
After RR had defined growth in such a way, why would you feel opposed to being part of that pro growth.
I suspect the problem is the language of “growth” is so ingrained to mean something else?
That’s why I asked because, having agreed with the rest, I suspected I would agree with the conclusion if I understood it.
The parable of the Talents should serve as a warning to any anti- growth coalition.
I don’t know what it says in the NIV, but in every Bible I’ve read when St Paul lists the fruits of the Spirit, ‘growth’ isn’t one of them. There’s so much more to the Kingdom, so many more uses of our talents in the service of the Lord, than simply ‘growth’. Some sections of the church are quite close to idolising the notion of growth never mind ‘success’.
There are other parables Jesus taught as well: the Pharisee and the tax collector comes to mind.
There are many ways I could reply – and I suspect we all feel in some way relating to the sinner being humble and saying “God have mercy on me” – but to an another person our humility may look like the Pharisee’s “I’m a million times as humble as thou-art” type attitude. Looking at the actual substance however; I think growth is always “growth of something”. Just using the words ‘success’ and ‘growth’ and saying they alone are ‘good’ or ‘bad’ doesn’t make sense. Growth of “something” becomes so relevant to the fruits of the spirit that you shared.… Read more »
Parable of the bags of gold, parable of the 10 minas, the parable of the seeds that fell on good soil, the parable of the mustard seed of faith, Jesus it seems was pro growth. He promised to build his church, something along the lines of the church in Jerusalem which just kept growing and growing, and is why we are still discussing church growth today.
I use the NIV constantly, Father, and can assure you that Paul doesn’t use the word ‘growth’ in their version either!
‘Growth’, as I’d use the word, would primarily mean ‘spiritual’ growth, as an individual and then as a community – growing in the power, wisdom and maturity of the Spirit. ‘Growth’ as the organised church uses it seems to mean more ‘heads counted’ or ‘butts on seats’ statistics.
Of the two, Paul seems to lean more towards the former than the latter, at least to me anyway.
The problem with the church growth movement is on both sides and that Welby is a typical compromise Anglican. People who, very frequently, on TA complain of mangerialism and business models largely benefit from the diocese funding their ministry. Welby attempted a managed decline of a big business effectively propping up small declining branches whilst spending on a few seemingly successful ones. This is not an evangelical strategy, it is an attempt to make the old model work when the numbers are no longer sustainable. The real church growth model is to defund everywhere and let God decide, only life… Read more »
In my diocese here in the US all congregations are self funded. Some might get a bit of aid as needed and there is a revolving loan fund from which we can borrow for capital expenditures like a new heating plant or roof. Self funding works. Small congregations (those unable to pay a priest’s salary and benefits) have to depend on volunteers and retired priests, like me, who’ll take a service now and then. Some have a Eucharist only once a month under those circumstances. Otherwise it’s Morning Prayer. The diocese provides training for lay people who lSadly congregations are… Read more »
The difference in England is that the C of E is the national church, and every person living in England has the right to its services (both liturgical and pastoral). The tension is that that model is proving difficult to maintain, but the expectations remain.
‘The diocese funding their ministry’
Not sure about that.
Our parish funds the diocese to the tune of over 100k per annum. The diocese also has glebe and fee income (generated from parishes, not diocesan HQ) to help fund the vicar, which is what we get directly back. Quite where the rest goes and what it achieves, I’m not sure about.
You would have to look at the diocese accounts [if you give a name I could dissect them for you – as they are available publicly] But the answer will be something like: If you are paying more than you get – then you are subsidising another parish. In more detail – – Diocese has a total spend of X-million this covers Clergy, clergy housing, clergy training, curates, etc. Then on top of that will be other expenses — each diocese is different but expect it to be a lot smaller. Cover admin time [not bishops and archdeacons, they come… Read more »
So the parishes ‘funded by the diocese’ are actually funded by other parishes in the diocese? Not ‘the diocese’ as a central entity?
depends a lot on where you’re talking about and what context. But “the diocese” is a collection of parishes. So trying to separate what is “the diocese vs the parishes” is not always easy or meaningful.. I would say from the accounts I’ve dug into – on average- most “large” parishes [especially upto the level of HTB] are self funding. And smaller ones tend to get increasing amounts of subsidy. Some of that will come from other parishes, and some from central grants – – but then those central grants are by definition the result of money that was at… Read more »
Thanks – it’s helpful to have the complexity of all this set out. I wonder if the idea of ‘diocese’ as central institution with officers, policies, programmes etc. for the parishes to first fund and then fall in line with, is a recent, and ambiguous novelty? The diocese as parishes and clergy gathered around a bishop (assisted by a minimal support staff) must gradually have receded into the memory as DBFs, DACs and the like came into being.
Concerning racism in the CoE: One thing to be wary of is to think of ‘Black people’ as a homogenous group. This is a dangerous both sides. There is absolutely nothing in common, for example, between George Floyd and Kamala Harris, and US Democrats have no right to think African Americans should all vote for them. George Floyd grew up in a Houston ward I am familiar with and have friends there. Kamala harris (and many Democrats) grew up middle class, she had academic parents. Similarly, white folk (I am white) think all black people look the same. I taught… Read more »
Um, not to go “All Lives Matter” here, but obviously “white folk” vary (e.g., in their ability to detect the visible uniqueness of each and every Black person), too.
I should have been more careful – I meant ‘some white folk’. My main point is that skin colour is just one out of many attributes, albeit one of the most visible. Reality is complex. The ability to interact with,and be respected by. all members of society is not lightly given, some manage it better than others. I would hope that those training for the ministry would be trained in these matters. I remember when I was at Epsom, the vicar was ordained after a professional career. Mervyn Stockwood was involved somehow in the training. Mervyn told them all to… Read more »
One thing to be wary of is to think of ‘Black people’ as a homogenous group. I am sure you are aware of this, but the word in circles where such things are discussed is “essentiallism”. This is the process by which identity politics metastasises, usually in the hands of majority privilege, into the idea that members of a group have that membership as the most important thing in their lives and then act as an homogenous group. Muslims (or other ethnic/religious groups) are not doctors, fathers, daughters, model railways enthusiasts, but are seen as Muslim first and foremost (and… Read more »
I had not heard of the term ‘essentialism’ but it seems to represent what I was saying. Another example – shock horror when a white person uses the N word. Yet, amongst my black friends in Houston it was used all the time. I was even called ‘my N’ by a black lady friend. It is simply a synonym for ‘friend’ in that community. The word has been appropriated and transformed from the racist connotations. I also remember I took the same lady to houston opera, all the other black people there were ushers. I am all for transformations. We… Read more »
I used to work in a government office along with a lawyer (qualified, legal sort, rather than the barrack room variety) who argued. very loudly, that that particular word could not possibly be racist because black people used it when referring to one another! (He forgot to say that they may be using it as a pejorative.) A black lady colleague was greatly affronted by his claims, as to her the term had never, ever been anything but offensive. As always, its how the hearer perceives it, rather than what the speaker meant. Curiously I’d not encountered ‘coconut’ as a… Read more »
I have read part of the actual report. Lots of good stuff, lots of anecdotes, but the statistical analysis is hopeless (I do a lot of data science in my day job). There are two categories for ‘Black’, ‘Black African’ and ‘Black Caribbean’, which covers an enormous range. No other information about individuals seems to have been gathered. There doesn’t seem to be a professional statistician on the authoring panel. The report itself talks about class, education etc., but with no analysis. In statistics there is something called ‘confounding’. This is when a variable is ignored, and this leads to… Read more »
I don’t like this “anti growth coalition” basically because it seems confused as to what it wants. Does it want non believers ro know Jesus? Not sure. What does it want me to do in church? Close any church with less than 20 members so we don’t tire ourselves out.. no .. so what is it telling me? Church growth plans can only ever start at the local level of individuals sharing faith, and then maybe at the parish community level. At the diocese level language of mixed “something” is necessary precisely because each parish needs to find it’s own… Read more »
Respectfully, it seems even more important if Christians believe that Jesus is Love. Without that, Lord-ship is only Power-Over: something that others should not know!
I will concede that God is Love… and John 3:16 is a relatively common way of capturing it. I had thought/hoped I would include key point by referencing the creed – – oddly I cannot see an explicit reference to God/Jesus is love, only an indirect ‘for our sake he was crucified’. I wouldn’t say that God is Love is a “new” invention, but it is odd to not see it explicit in creed format. Perhaps (being kind) it was considered self-evident. BUT I think you do raise a good point; while I could be grumpy at… Read more »
“I wouldn’t say that God is Love is a ‘new’ invention.”
Probably not:
“Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love.” 1 John 4.8:
“God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.” 1 John 4.16:
“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
It was new to the writer of that epistle, as it is not mentioned anywhere else at all in the Bible. But Love was a deity in the pagan pantheon, so maybe not that new.
I find it interesting the comments are all on the details of “how do you define God / Love / etc” – and not on my original points.
This leads me to re-conclude, the so-called “anti-growth movement” (if it is a ‘thing’ that can be named) is quite confused on what it actually wants and is more of a reactionary movement to the perceived wrongs of other movements.
Agree, of course, that God is love and Jesus is God so Jesus is love.
Might it be that we truly understand what ‘Lord’ and ‘love’ fully mean only when we see the meaning of these words revealed in the life of Jesus? I’ve always seen the creed as a love story taking us through creation, incarnation, salvation and pointing towards final consummation.
until ‘thinking anglicans’ engage with the media with enthusiasm, we will continue to get these reports:
I am sick to death of people phoning up LBC and starting with ‘as a Christian….’ and spouting some sex obsessed onsense.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/dec/08/we-dont-tolerate-prejudice-at-work-why-pray-do-we-allow-it-in-church
Wachet auf.
I would say I think most examples of conservatives phoning up is for them to be harassed by the presenter for being a bigot, not the presenter being unsure what to say. So the premise of the article [we can’t criticise religious people] seems wrong… but a minor point. BUT – – I do think it’s fair to note that the last few articles on this site have all been about the Anglican Church, how does something which has happened relate to the Anglican Church – what is the future (/is there one). Should we apologise anymore or etc. Nothing… Read more »
It depends on the LBC presenter. Many of them are very open, and try to stimulate dialogue, they would not harrass anybody. Nick Ferrari, on the other hand…….
My main point is that when a caller starts with ‘as a Christian…’ you know they will say something stupid or bigotted, they won’t be talking intelligently about Syria/Gaza etc.
So the general population develops a very negative view of Christianity.
As far as I’m aware the official doctrine of the Church of England is that marriage is the union between a man and a woman and that Andrea Williams is a member of the Church of England holding to the same doctrine?
What am I missing?
The rest is politics podcast between Alastair Campbell, Rory Stewart and Justin Welby.
Aye I guess, but I thought there was a process (other than declaring things on podcasts) for changing doctrine in the Church of England and I also thought bishops promised to uphold the doctrine of the church rather than undermine it.
If it’s a case of de facto changing doctrine without formally doing so that says a lot about the integrity of those proposing change.
Couldn’t agree more!
What makes you think there is a process for changing doctrine in the C of E, and if there were such a process how could bishops promise to uphold doctrine in the first place? The two are incompatible.
It is perfectly possible to uphold the Catholic doctrine of marriage as being between a man and a woman, and at the same time not only to recognise permanent, faithful and fruitful same-sex unions as a calling alongside marriage and celibacy but also to bless them.
This is where the Church of England is with the Prayers of Love and Faith, although constrained by the blessing being on the individuals rather than on their union.
In my Father’s house are many mansions.
You lost me for a bit, then after a bit of research I discovered that the caller in the article I referenced was Andrea Williams, CEO of Christian Concern. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Concern What you are missing is that Andrea takes an extreme position, she does not represent ‘thinking Anglicans’. She is dangerous, and does a gross disservice to the gospel of Jesus. See what St Augustine said about the problem of appearing stupid when discussing matters of science. https://harvardichthus.org/2010/09/augustine-on-faith-and-science/ So, going back to my original comment, do we want the likes of Andrea Williams to be the only people who call the… Read more »
From what I saw in the clip on LBC – Andrea Williams stated the official doctrine of the Church of England on marriage and sexual ethics.
For clarity – are you suggesting that those who hold to a traditional Christian understanding of marriage and sexual ethics are extreme for simply holding to the same doctrine the church has held on this throughout its history?
I think it depends on what they say to support their stance. If they posit nonsense like “homosexuals want to groom and convert heterosexual youngsters” or “gay sex is inherently physically or psychologically harmful” then, yes, they are too extreme.
If you look at many of her other statements, she is indeed ridiculous. Did you check wiki? I am sure you are aware of that, so not sure why you are defending her jerk reaction to pick up the phone and be a mouthpiece for extremism, it damages the Christian message. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Concern https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/dispatches-making-a-giant-leap-of-faith-830550.html The world 4000 years old? See my links regarding st Augustine and science. The Archbishop of Paris welcomed all to Notre Dame. Is that so difficult? On a ‘technical’ point, many (incl. LBC) assumed that the Crystal Palace footballer who wrote ‘Jesus loves you’ or what ever… Read more »
For clarity – yes, a marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal, with sexual abstinence before, during and after! We all fall short. I’ve attended enough marriage services in church, as an organist, to almost be able to recite verbatim the 3 reasons for marriage – companionship, desire, and procreation. I see a big difference between a marriage in church and a civil marriage, but am somewhat disinterested. To be honest, I am more interested in how the church communicates to the outside world. Nobody outside is the slightest bit interested in what arcane discussions go on… Read more »
Sure, we all fall short, but we don’t bless the falling short. We long for repentance in our lives as we seek to follow Christ. That’s the pattern of the Christian life. The church is about calling people to faith in Christ, and desiring that people turn from sin and trust in Him. That’s what Christ died for, to save us from our sin. It’s effectively the good news of Christmas (Matthew 1:21). The gospel is good news, and life with Christ is better than a life lived without Him, and that includes Christianity teaching on marriage and sexuality along… Read more »
She is a dangerous woman. Her rantings make the Christian faith sound ridiculous. She should be ignored.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/nov/27/critically-ill-infants-christian-legal-centre-court-cases
Does this help?
https://www.humanreligions.info/christian_concern.html
She is a loon. Not a Christian. Brain and thinking do not engage.
I don’t listen to LBC, so have to rely on what’s said here to know about this incident – and have never even heard of the lady concerned! (London is in many ways on a different planet to up here in Birmingham) Christian Concern I have heard of – and must admit to distrusting in many ways. They seem to assume, when speaking publicly on various issues, that all Christians think like they do, or otherwise are inadequate, or failing in the faith. I have learned to take their pronouncements with a very large (JCB sized) scoop full of salt… Read more »
I often listen to LBC in the evening. Every time anything to do with religion is being discussed, I shudder, as all the extremists phone in. Strangely, they usually phone in when anything to do with sex is being discussed.
The presentor’s understanding of Christianity is also severely limited, same as the general person. They think it is merely a moral code.
I may not believe in many things, but I probably believe in the Beatitudes. They are rather radical.
Sadly, we do seem to attract rather a lot of extremists, particularly on that specific issue. I’d rather get on with living!
I think it is useful to talk about the Church of England, the Anglican Communion or individual Provinces thereof rather than the Anglican Church ( which doesn’t really exist ) Otherwise we get confused. This habit of always calling the Church of England THE Anglican Church seems to have become common especially in the Press in the last few decades and in some church circles. I know not why. I am happier talking about the Church of England or the parish church tbh. I’m happy ( just about still) to be in” the ancient Church of this land, catholic and… Read more »
Might the Lambeth Quadrilateral be relevant to this?