I am taking the rare opportunity to comment on my own piece first. This is because a commentator spotted a significant error. Please consider my speculation on the Anglican Communion Reps for CNC as speculation. I missed an important reality that Bishop Riscylla Shaw of Canada is indigenous, and a member of the ACC – thank you Alan T Perry – which makes her a prime candidate from the Americas. She rejoices in being a part of an episcopal team that includes a married gay bishop so will not be a conservative voice. My speculation is that that either the… Read more »
Philip. Am I oversimplifying things, or can it be said that the Anglican Communion might now be more progressive than the Church of England. In the AC the strong and vocal conservative forces (GAFCON) have removed themselves from the picture, and so the remainder, those still engaging with the AC structures, often have a strong progressive character when dealing with issues of gender equality or even sexuality. Whereas within the C of E the strong conservative forces are still inside the fold and tending to overpower the more progressive voices. The differing experiences of colonialism might also have a part… Read more »
I am thinking of a longer blog. This is not simple, but the C of E has been a drag on moves to change. the C of E attempted to block the ecumenical progress in the United churches of India (N and S) Pakistan and Bangladesh – and succeeded with Sri Lanka. they slowed progress to women priests and women bishops – with others moving ahead (including Uganda for example – which begs the question was Uganda more progressive in the 1980s) and then if you look at the history of General Convention and TEC you find the C of… Read more »
Not to quibble, but he’d not recognize this label, “an unquestionably progressive evangelical.” “Evangelical” means something on the landscape of the CofE that doesn’t fit well in the context of TEC and the denominated world of US Christianity. “An unquestionably progressive liberal leader” — that language would work for Curry in TEC. The Virginia Seminary that described itself as evangelical in the early 20th century ceased using that language by the end of it. I think Curry graduated from General Seminary (happy to be corrected), a liberal catholic institution.
Thanks Philip, that is helpful. I think a very short answer is simply “it’s complicated”. Might the colonial issue add to the complication? From my own research I know that in many of these countries the pre-colonial cultures often had great gender equality and female autonomy; personally, financially and sexually. People with LGBT identities were also often able to flourish. It was European, and especially British, colonial enforcement that shut this down and enforced patriarchal heteronormativity, often with church and missionary support. Is such history an active issue in the AC? If the CofE continues to project power and impede… Read more »
Thanks for that Nigel. I can only go by the Wikipedia plot summary, but it seems exactly on to the issue.
I was aware of Wole Soyinka but I will have to pay him more attention.
There are many examples of women in ex-colonial countries working on female emancipation by looking back to their own indigenous past. And many LGBTQ examples as well. This work entails a nuanced relationship with Christianity, on both sides.
Simon, sorry not to have replied earlier. Yes, you are right about the influence of the colonial era and penal codes reinforcing monogamous, heteronormative life, but the East African Revival brought in a radical change that was pro women. It was uncomfortable for the missionaries. So, in Tanganyika Festo Kivengere was banned from preaching by CMS Australia missionaries – the very missionaries who had brought him there from Uganda. He was shocked by the assumptions about him that he found racist. Desmond Tutu (who preached at his funeral) was convinced with Kivengere that what was happening was Christ overcoming culture… Read more »
Thanks Phillip, that is helpful. Thank you for taking the time to post.
You are not the only person to question the historical accuracy of the LLF documentation. I once went to a lecture by professor Mark Chapman, linked to the LLF process, where it was implied that all the progress on LGBT emancipation in the UK in the 20th century was down to the work of well meaning straight people. That was certainly news to me.
Anglican Priest
27 days ago
Groves dispels the notion that the AC involved in the next ABC process will be a conservative invasion. Indeed, more likely the opposite. Percy gives a frank and gloomy appraisal of the next season in the AC; or if you prefer, one in which an unraveling returns things to as they were and have always been: a Protestant, Empire enriching, movement of English expansion, with some religious overtones. Much of this seems due to the collapse of the CofE, which is also admitted, and it follows when one views the AC as a Protestant, Empire driven phenomenon. I did find… Read more »
Philip Groves
27 days ago
I am now commenting on Martyn’s post. I don’t know what to make of it. It is both true and misleading. it is true that the Anglican Communion is a complete accident – never by design, but the claim that the AC maps ‘English’ (sic) colonial expansion – given Dr Livingstone was perhaps the biggest impetus to colonialism – is debatable. A couple of examples: Tanganyika – where the C of E opposed Anglican missionaries in German East Africa who stubbornly refused to go home and persecuted by German missionaries. Anglicanism is still a minority compared to Lutherans and Catholics… Read more »
We may not agree about a lot–I too have rubbed elbows with lots of the AC–but this gets a rousing hear, hear: “I always think you learn more about Anglicanism from Anglicans in places that never felt the effect of British colonialism.” His is the usual England-centric, and dyspeptic, chronicle. I was the head of the missionary society at Virginia Seminary 47 years ago, and those who took an interest in the mission field had no interest in this empire narrative, to the degree they knew anything about it at all. Same at the Mission Studies Center at Yale, where… Read more »
Ruairidh (Rod) Gillis
27 days ago
Interesting kind of dialectic between the opinions of Phil Groves and Martyn Percy–a kind of conversation between current affairs (Groves) and history (Percy). I’d like to give a shout out to Groves for mentioning the Mother’s Union as a voice of African Anglican Feminism. Some of the same interests are part of some MU branches here in Canada–although we do make very tasty jam. Come the Feast of the Presentation I will be an Anglican for fifty years. Joined from The Roman Catholic Church and in its local heartland. I still have the certificate of reception I received with a… Read more »
Philip Groves
27 days ago
Martyn talks a lot about polygamy, I am not sure why. It is a complex subject and I am not sure what he thinks about it. The Lambeth Conference of 1920 might have been reflecting Roland Allen (Missionary Methods St Paul’s or Ours?). The missionaries in China in the early 1900s wanted a decision made in England on Polygamy and this dispute was at the heart of Roland Allen’s call for local decision making, not ignorant declarations from the other side of the world, just as Paul rejected the Jerusalem solution to circumcision say for example in Philippi. Martyn notes… Read more »
Thank you for mentioning Roland Allen — he had a big impact on the missionaries going out from the US. My colleagues Radner (Burundi — a French speaking country) and Sumner (Tanzania — whose German background you rehearse above), among others. Kelly Clark was the Dean at Berkeley Divinity School at Yale, a former missionary in the Philippines.
My point about polygamy was rather more simple. After 100 years of debate at Lambeth Conferences, there was no resolution, save not to discuss it further. The Bishops could not resolve the issue, and there is no sign that they will fare any better on LGBTQ+ matters. With no agreed theological corpus, method, central/universal canon law or quasi-papal authority, all Anglicans can do is agree to differ. I think that is fine, by the way. But structure should follow value here, and once that epiphany is owned, quite a lot of issues on the authority of the church (Anglicanism in… Read more »
Thanks Martyn, Ahh, then I completely agree with you. Bishops in Council have no chance of resolving an issue of any significance. My point about the feminist backlash is actually then the same. In 1988 the bishops may have thought they could resolve things in a conference in Canterbury, but as they were then all men they had no way of doing that. I cannot understand why anyone would think they could. LGBTIQ+ Christians have to be showing us how we together walk with Christ. ‘Resolving’ an ‘issue’ at a Conference where they are deliberately marginalised is madness. Roland Allen’s… Read more »
Richard Ashby
27 days ago
It was Dr Derek Sherwin Bailey who wrote in Eugenics Review (not Sheridan as Dr Percy has it). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Sherwin_Bailey
His book ‘Homosexuality and the Western Christian Tradition was an important contribution to the church’s thinking on same sex relationships even if some of his conclusions, like that on vasectomies, seem more than a little eccentric 85 years later.
Ruairidh (Rod) Gillis
27 days ago
Because it was new to me I took a look around Martyn Percy’s site, Meander. Click on the Essays and Review tab and there are some articles with intriguing titles. I’ve only read the one other so far , Rickey Religion from December 2021. When I saw he opened with a Leonard Cohen Lyric I thought I would read more. Cohen can be like the bible i.e. imaginative. Towards the end a timely thought: “In the meantime, hang on to your respair. There is a long way to go yet, but as Emma Percy’s fine poem (The Oil of Gladness)… Read more »
Correction, that should read Rickety Religion; also Percy’s section 2 in his article under discussion on this thread is captioned, Protestant! Folks may be interested to compare with Diarmaid McCulloch’s lecture on this subject from 2020. I suggest taking a look beginning at about 9:05 minutes in. I linked this in a comment some time ago on another subject; but I think it of some relevance re Percy’s piece here.
Two thoughts about the Percy analysis. First, some large international denominations that originated at centres of international secular power have not collapsed despite the focus of power moving elsewhere. Roman catholicism is very strong 1500 years after the fall of Rome.
Second, Anglicanism is in difficulty within the British Isles but is booming in countries like Uganda, a former protectorate. So the end of empire may have saved rather than weakened our denomination by liberating the rest of it from the former centre. Decline only happens if you let it. For Anglicans, the future has yet to be written.
The collapse in numbers for British Anglicanism has a complex alloy of causes. Trust and confidence in the leadership and an unaccountable autocratic oversight system are factors. Another is the perceived internal political compromises on moral/social issues (e.g., sexuality, gender, etc), which is out of step with society and blunts ethical leadership. The usual challenges in developed nations include consumerism, social mobility, access to choices, alternative sources of spiritual, social, and educational engagement etc. Culturally the decline in deference is often remarked upon by commentators. Institutional ennui must also be factored in – less volunteering for maintenance-related roles, and an… Read more »
Again I am with Martyn.
Population growth in Uganda – and the rest of Africa – is huge and as a percentage of the population Anglicans are declining and declining rapidly. Pentecostal churches are flourishing and serious church leaders across Africa fear a decline in true discipleship for a health and wealth approach.
the other side of Christianity in Africa is that women far outnumber men. In Tanzania I would say 3 to 1. Easy to count given that men all sit on one side of the church and women fill the other and then overspill on the men’s side.
Exactly. Once upon a time Antioch and Alexandria were the seats of influence in the Early Church. Their disappearance from that role was simply that. To think about the AC through the lens of the ABC or the CofE is to be looking a page of past history. Add to that the unique polity of the CofE over against all other provinces, the former is the anomaly, not the Communion provinces.
peterpi - Peter Gross
27 days ago
Whoa! I don’t always follow events in the CofE, being on the other side of The Pond, although I do like to look at the Thinking Anglicans’ website regularly. But I had no idea the Archbishop of Canterbury was retiring. Is the term of office fixed, or did he (in)voluntarily retire? Was this a case, metaphorically speaking, of “I quit! No, you’re sacked!”? Regardless, I thought Martyn Percy’s essay and overview was masterful, containing a great deal of informative background history. I thought the titles of #’s 4 and 6 were especially apt, and sex will always be on the… Read more »
Peter – you have a lot to catch up on!
Resigned, not retired.
It was a moment where the entire UK press were going to talk about how he had to resign until he did.
Lots of this on TA.
If a Resignation leads to being paid a Pension it is technically a Retirement, especially if as a result of a Resignation a person transitions from a working life to a Life of Retirement, so it is both Resignation and Retirement, for if it was just a Resignation Bishop Welby would not be paid a Church Pension at all. Jonathan
I think we as Anglicans are interesting and even attractive to many Christians of different denominations because at our best we live in a theologically complex and interesting place. It means we have something that is complex and nuanced that others respect, even if we don’t.
In the USA ‘anglican’ is attractive because it represents an ordered liturgy and a claim to antiquity, saints, continuity in church history. The Prayer Book (and not denominational confessions or black letter canon law) can serve as an ecumenical beacon, and does. In my experience, ‘anglican’ isn’t attractive because it honors complexity. A place like Wheaton College or Baylor shows students attracted to anglicanism (not so much TEC) for the reasons above, and also because the complex party strife they have experienced in Reformed and Evangelical contexts they have wearied from. If you try to introduce them to anglican-TEC strife,… Read more »
Agreed. As an early Pilgrim on that very road, before, I think, it was even called that, many of us saw the chance for a fuller expression of the Christian faith in the Anglican tradition and have even stuck with the task of laboring for a fuller expression of the faith within TEC even as it has become, charitably, a pretty diminished version of the faith.
I was discussing this very thing with a young man in his 20s only last week. He finds himself drawn into Christianity, and he is exploring the Orthodox Church precisely because of the “ordered liturgy and a claim to antiquity, saints, continuity in church history” that you describe. He says that he is “just drawn towards it“. The problem is that he is deeply troubled by that church’s conservative attitude to issues around gender and sexuality, which go against much that he believes in. Is it possible to find a church community which offers access to this more ordered and… Read more »
You might ask yourself why this is so. Orthodoxy organises itself around the Second Century (read John Behr’s many works). It does not have the same Whig account of history, as invariable “progress.” To declare the long history of the church as worthy of attention, respect, and curiosity–in its length and breadth–is to question any simple view of “we now know this to be true.” Catholicity has avoided what Chesterton called chronological snobbery. Obviously progressives are entitled to their own position in this matter.
“He says that he is ‘just drawn towards it’….The problem is that he is deeply troubled by that ….which go against much that he believes in.” There is an interesting tension or dichotomy in these two statements. It resonates. I was in a similar situation at that same age when I left the Catholicism of my upbringing for Anglicanism. One of the ways of sifting the kind of inner conflict you seem to be describing is to ask one’s self; what am I drawn toward? and What am I moved toward. These are two different questions, or at the very… Read more »
Thanks Ruaridh. Is this new spelling of your name an acknowledgement of your Caledonian ancestry? I like it. There is a helpful truth in Anglican Priest’s response: this is the way it is, it’s not going to change, deal with it. But your response offers ways of dealing with it. I like your distinction between what am I drawn towards by something outside me, and what am I moved towards by my own inner experience and volition. I also agree with you about the shadow side of religion. That for me personally is a huge issue. How you deal with… Read more »
“this is the way it is, it’s not going to change, deal with it.” You asked a question about churches whose orientation is toward the deposit of past teaching. The Liturgy of the Orthodox church has never gone through ‘liturgical renewal’ as the idea makes no sense to them. I am not saying ‘deal with it.’ I am trying to describe a different orientation. If people want to create churches with historical liturgies and saints and so forth, that are also progressive, they could be describing Anglicanism in much of its present mode. How that makes theological sense would be… Read more »
I read your comment as a helpful challenge – this material and practise and teaching has been around for almost 2000 years, so it must have value, so encounter it as it is and seek the value in it, rather than want it to change. Sorry if my abrupt answer seemed dismissive. It was not meant to be.
Appreciate your response. I teach the history of biblical interpretation from Origen to the Reformers. My book Convergences: Canon and Catholicity sought to make the case for ‘catholicity’ as constituted by this long history of interpretation (among other things). It looked closely at the three parties active at Vatican 2, with sympathy for the ressourcement scholars (as against conservative Trent/Thomists or excited historical critics wanting to have some common territory with protestant scholarship). Behr reviewed my book and I have some understanding of his ‘second century’ emphasis vis-a-vis scripture, on one side, and his rejection of ‘OT limps while NT… Read more »
Looks admirable and diverse. However much I stayed in Houston, I never visited Louisiana. i used to travel west along Highway 10 to San Antonio for R&R. One day, got to do concentrated tour to listen to blues bands.
Interesting to me is how it is honestly, on the ground ‘diverse’, and never mentions it as a goal. My father was the Headmaster of an Episcopal School in Shreveport for several years (my parents were not southerners). I was told LA is three regions, “cajun, creole, redneck.’ Shreveport (redneck; a positive term for farmer) was the least ‘diverse’ of the other two regions to the south. A lot of Caribbean Blacks, European feel. Anglican liturgy (high-church) has a certain resonance. My own classmates in boarding school where from these two southern regions, including Gustaf Rheinhold McIlhenney of Tabasco Sauce… Read more »
Love creole/cajun food. Loved crawfish in Houston in season, with the spices. The shells would scratch your fingers, and the spices sting a little. Seafood gumbo is the greatest.
Please pray for St. Mark’s Episcopal Church in Altadena, which burnt down on Wednesday. I had a wonderful summer there in the 1980s as part of my ordination training. Many of St. Mark’s congregation will have lost their homes.
If the new rector is married, it is expected that his or her spouse would lovingly and actively support the rector and become an energetic member of the parish.
which implies they would be OK wth a woman rector.
Such an ad in the UK would be illegal! You can only appoint the applicant, not their spouse. What if they are in the later point of a degenerative illness? What if they are RC? What if they have a job in the health area that means they are frequently on call on Sundays?
Noticed that as well. In our diocese ( I’m in Canada) The Parochial Committee that works with the diocesan bishop in the appointment process is prohibited from asking applicants questions about their marital status or family life. Additionally, we have had several situations over the years where one of our clergy is married to an ordained person serving another denomination e.g. a priest married to a United Church of Canada minister. We have examples where a priest is married to an active Roman Catholic lay person. We also have clergy who are in same sex marriages. I have a colleague… Read more »
Sure Simon, and you are able to offer those responses from your own perspective and in the context of an in person conversation. This is an instance where I find online conversation so limiting. You may have noticed that in my previous comment I made a passing distinction between religious reflection and theological reflection. I think the distinction between religion and theology very helpful. There is not space here nor is this the format to provide context for that distinction. It is one I grew to appreciate from my reading, particularly of both Wilfred Cantwell Smith and Bernard Lonergan. In… Read more »
I think you and I are in the same ballpark here, but your phraseology brings helpful clarification. Religious versus Theological reflection for example.
This is so true (in my being a just-about outsider but repeat reentrant into, the C of E). In Guarding the Holy Fire Roger Steer cites a remark by Dr Percy in his 1997 review of a 1996 Lewis & McGrath compilation (on a Packer birthday). Dr Percy connected what he called some sort of “social abrogation” (and follow my thoughts below) with the 1966 “rebutting” of Lloyd-Jones. It’s been commented that C of E conservative evangelicals had until the mid 1990s to get their brains in gear, where I place the welcome start of women vicars, the advent of dominionism (an erastianism… Read more »
There might be some “complex and interesting” discussions about theology going on amongst the cognoscenti. But a newcomer interested in finding out what the C of E is about could scour the Church website in vain for the slightest glimmer of anything of the sort. It’s as though the last 200 years hadn’t happened.
I am just back from Christmas ‘on the other side of the Pond’. I went to the Christmas morning Communion at Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland OH, which I thoroughly enjoyed.
Kate Keates
27 days ago
While discussion of the post-Welby era is interesting, that’s not where we are. For most of 2025, possibly somewhat longer, we are in the Cottrell era. Indeed, it’s likely that Cottrell will initially be the dominant force for some time after that while the new Archbishop of Canterbury finds his (or her) feet.
A period long enough to be endued with Cottrellism (whatever that might be), for chosen people to be made joyful, people to be saved, inheritances blessed, peace and concord?
When I lived in Berkshire I heard ++Stephen preach joyfully on many occasions. On Christmas Morning I was at York Minster and heard him preach. Sadly no joy or vitality.
I recall that when ++Stephen was appointed there were many comments here saying what a good choice he was, such a good and godly man. I fear that the archbishoprics suck the life out of good people and worry the same will continue to happen unless there are some significant changes.
William Temple. Michael Ramsey. Rowan Williams. Robert Runcie. Plenty of life with all of them….excellent godly men.
Ruairidh (Rod) Gillis
27 days ago
Yazid Said’s article is a very thoughtful and well researched intervention on the Archbishop Welby era. It is both post-mortem and prospective. As Said notes, ” Often human beings don’t like to confess that they have agendas when reacting to crises.” I know I don’t. His piece is an antidote to some of the toxic disgruntled trolling of both Welby and the C of E that has been afoot. I find his notion of perception a good way in–although I’d have to think more about his heavy reliance on the ‘ocular’ metaphor in terms of the problem of self insight.… Read more »
David
23 days ago
Yazid Said’s article was interesting to read, but I cannot see any justification at all for an Established Church in a nation where Christians, much less Anglicans, are a minority. Why 26 unelected bishops are allowed to legislate for people of other faiths and none is ridiculous. It is high time to disestablish the Church and remove its power and privileges. The Church of Sweden has actually grown since it was disestablished in 2000, not that I am convinced the CofE would given its fractious nature.
I am taking the rare opportunity to comment on my own piece first. This is because a commentator spotted a significant error. Please consider my speculation on the Anglican Communion Reps for CNC as speculation. I missed an important reality that Bishop Riscylla Shaw of Canada is indigenous, and a member of the ACC – thank you Alan T Perry – which makes her a prime candidate from the Americas. She rejoices in being a part of an episcopal team that includes a married gay bishop so will not be a conservative voice. My speculation is that that either the… Read more »
Philip. Am I oversimplifying things, or can it be said that the Anglican Communion might now be more progressive than the Church of England. In the AC the strong and vocal conservative forces (GAFCON) have removed themselves from the picture, and so the remainder, those still engaging with the AC structures, often have a strong progressive character when dealing with issues of gender equality or even sexuality. Whereas within the C of E the strong conservative forces are still inside the fold and tending to overpower the more progressive voices. The differing experiences of colonialism might also have a part… Read more »
I am thinking of a longer blog. This is not simple, but the C of E has been a drag on moves to change. the C of E attempted to block the ecumenical progress in the United churches of India (N and S) Pakistan and Bangladesh – and succeeded with Sri Lanka. they slowed progress to women priests and women bishops – with others moving ahead (including Uganda for example – which begs the question was Uganda more progressive in the 1980s) and then if you look at the history of General Convention and TEC you find the C of… Read more »
Not to quibble, but he’d not recognize this label, “an unquestionably progressive evangelical.” “Evangelical” means something on the landscape of the CofE that doesn’t fit well in the context of TEC and the denominated world of US Christianity. “An unquestionably progressive liberal leader” — that language would work for Curry in TEC. The Virginia Seminary that described itself as evangelical in the early 20th century ceased using that language by the end of it. I think Curry graduated from General Seminary (happy to be corrected), a liberal catholic institution.
Thanks Philip, that is helpful. I think a very short answer is simply “it’s complicated”. Might the colonial issue add to the complication? From my own research I know that in many of these countries the pre-colonial cultures often had great gender equality and female autonomy; personally, financially and sexually. People with LGBT identities were also often able to flourish. It was European, and especially British, colonial enforcement that shut this down and enforced patriarchal heteronormativity, often with church and missionary support. Is such history an active issue in the AC? If the CofE continues to project power and impede… Read more »
For some literature/play around the issue, check out
Wole Soyinka The Lion and the Jewel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lion_and_the_Jewel
I taught this in Kenya, the pupils were very keen to know what happened after Baroka got Sidi into bed and the scene changes.
Thanks for that Nigel. I can only go by the Wikipedia plot summary, but it seems exactly on to the issue.
I was aware of Wole Soyinka but I will have to pay him more attention.
There are many examples of women in ex-colonial countries working on female emancipation by looking back to their own indigenous past. And many LGBTQ examples as well. This work entails a nuanced relationship with Christianity, on both sides.
Simon, sorry not to have replied earlier. Yes, you are right about the influence of the colonial era and penal codes reinforcing monogamous, heteronormative life, but the East African Revival brought in a radical change that was pro women. It was uncomfortable for the missionaries. So, in Tanganyika Festo Kivengere was banned from preaching by CMS Australia missionaries – the very missionaries who had brought him there from Uganda. He was shocked by the assumptions about him that he found racist. Desmond Tutu (who preached at his funeral) was convinced with Kivengere that what was happening was Christ overcoming culture… Read more »
Thanks Phillip, that is helpful. Thank you for taking the time to post.
You are not the only person to question the historical accuracy of the LLF documentation. I once went to a lecture by professor Mark Chapman, linked to the LLF process, where it was implied that all the progress on LGBT emancipation in the UK in the 20th century was down to the work of well meaning straight people. That was certainly news to me.
Groves dispels the notion that the AC involved in the next ABC process will be a conservative invasion. Indeed, more likely the opposite. Percy gives a frank and gloomy appraisal of the next season in the AC; or if you prefer, one in which an unraveling returns things to as they were and have always been: a Protestant, Empire enriching, movement of English expansion, with some religious overtones. Much of this seems due to the collapse of the CofE, which is also admitted, and it follows when one views the AC as a Protestant, Empire driven phenomenon. I did find… Read more »
I am now commenting on Martyn’s post. I don’t know what to make of it. It is both true and misleading. it is true that the Anglican Communion is a complete accident – never by design, but the claim that the AC maps ‘English’ (sic) colonial expansion – given Dr Livingstone was perhaps the biggest impetus to colonialism – is debatable. A couple of examples: Tanganyika – where the C of E opposed Anglican missionaries in German East Africa who stubbornly refused to go home and persecuted by German missionaries. Anglicanism is still a minority compared to Lutherans and Catholics… Read more »
We may not agree about a lot–I too have rubbed elbows with lots of the AC–but this gets a rousing hear, hear: “I always think you learn more about Anglicanism from Anglicans in places that never felt the effect of British colonialism.” His is the usual England-centric, and dyspeptic, chronicle. I was the head of the missionary society at Virginia Seminary 47 years ago, and those who took an interest in the mission field had no interest in this empire narrative, to the degree they knew anything about it at all. Same at the Mission Studies Center at Yale, where… Read more »
Interesting kind of dialectic between the opinions of Phil Groves and Martyn Percy–a kind of conversation between current affairs (Groves) and history (Percy). I’d like to give a shout out to Groves for mentioning the Mother’s Union as a voice of African Anglican Feminism. Some of the same interests are part of some MU branches here in Canada–although we do make very tasty jam. Come the Feast of the Presentation I will be an Anglican for fifty years. Joined from The Roman Catholic Church and in its local heartland. I still have the certificate of reception I received with a… Read more »
Martyn talks a lot about polygamy, I am not sure why. It is a complex subject and I am not sure what he thinks about it. The Lambeth Conference of 1920 might have been reflecting Roland Allen (Missionary Methods St Paul’s or Ours?). The missionaries in China in the early 1900s wanted a decision made in England on Polygamy and this dispute was at the heart of Roland Allen’s call for local decision making, not ignorant declarations from the other side of the world, just as Paul rejected the Jerusalem solution to circumcision say for example in Philippi. Martyn notes… Read more »
Thank you for mentioning Roland Allen — he had a big impact on the missionaries going out from the US. My colleagues Radner (Burundi — a French speaking country) and Sumner (Tanzania — whose German background you rehearse above), among others. Kelly Clark was the Dean at Berkeley Divinity School at Yale, a former missionary in the Philippines.
My point about polygamy was rather more simple. After 100 years of debate at Lambeth Conferences, there was no resolution, save not to discuss it further. The Bishops could not resolve the issue, and there is no sign that they will fare any better on LGBTQ+ matters. With no agreed theological corpus, method, central/universal canon law or quasi-papal authority, all Anglicans can do is agree to differ. I think that is fine, by the way. But structure should follow value here, and once that epiphany is owned, quite a lot of issues on the authority of the church (Anglicanism in… Read more »
Thanks Martyn, Ahh, then I completely agree with you. Bishops in Council have no chance of resolving an issue of any significance. My point about the feminist backlash is actually then the same. In 1988 the bishops may have thought they could resolve things in a conference in Canterbury, but as they were then all men they had no way of doing that. I cannot understand why anyone would think they could. LGBTIQ+ Christians have to be showing us how we together walk with Christ. ‘Resolving’ an ‘issue’ at a Conference where they are deliberately marginalised is madness. Roland Allen’s… Read more »
It was Dr Derek Sherwin Bailey who wrote in Eugenics Review (not Sheridan as Dr Percy has it).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Sherwin_Bailey
His book ‘Homosexuality and the Western Christian Tradition was an important contribution to the church’s thinking on same sex relationships even if some of his conclusions, like that on vasectomies, seem more than a little eccentric 85 years later.
Because it was new to me I took a look around Martyn Percy’s site, Meander. Click on the Essays and Review tab and there are some articles with intriguing titles. I’ve only read the one other so far , Rickey Religion from December 2021. When I saw he opened with a Leonard Cohen Lyric I thought I would read more. Cohen can be like the bible i.e. imaginative. Towards the end a timely thought: “In the meantime, hang on to your respair. There is a long way to go yet, but as Emma Percy’s fine poem (The Oil of Gladness)… Read more »
Correction, that should read Rickety Religion; also Percy’s section 2 in his article under discussion on this thread is captioned, Protestant! Folks may be interested to compare with Diarmaid McCulloch’s lecture on this subject from 2020. I suggest taking a look beginning at about 9:05 minutes in. I linked this in a comment some time ago on another subject; but I think it of some relevance re Percy’s piece here.
https://youtu.be/9k7l7_iqECc
Two thoughts about the Percy analysis. First, some large international denominations that originated at centres of international secular power have not collapsed despite the focus of power moving elsewhere. Roman catholicism is very strong 1500 years after the fall of Rome.
Second, Anglicanism is in difficulty within the British Isles but is booming in countries like Uganda, a former protectorate. So the end of empire may have saved rather than weakened our denomination by liberating the rest of it from the former centre. Decline only happens if you let it. For Anglicans, the future has yet to be written.
The collapse in numbers for British Anglicanism has a complex alloy of causes. Trust and confidence in the leadership and an unaccountable autocratic oversight system are factors. Another is the perceived internal political compromises on moral/social issues (e.g., sexuality, gender, etc), which is out of step with society and blunts ethical leadership. The usual challenges in developed nations include consumerism, social mobility, access to choices, alternative sources of spiritual, social, and educational engagement etc. Culturally the decline in deference is often remarked upon by commentators. Institutional ennui must also be factored in – less volunteering for maintenance-related roles, and an… Read more »
Again I am with Martyn.
Population growth in Uganda – and the rest of Africa – is huge and as a percentage of the population Anglicans are declining and declining rapidly. Pentecostal churches are flourishing and serious church leaders across Africa fear a decline in true discipleship for a health and wealth approach.
the other side of Christianity in Africa is that women far outnumber men. In Tanzania I would say 3 to 1. Easy to count given that men all sit on one side of the church and women fill the other and then overspill on the men’s side.
Exactly. Once upon a time Antioch and Alexandria were the seats of influence in the Early Church. Their disappearance from that role was simply that. To think about the AC through the lens of the ABC or the CofE is to be looking a page of past history. Add to that the unique polity of the CofE over against all other provinces, the former is the anomaly, not the Communion provinces.
Whoa! I don’t always follow events in the CofE, being on the other side of The Pond, although I do like to look at the Thinking Anglicans’ website regularly. But I had no idea the Archbishop of Canterbury was retiring. Is the term of office fixed, or did he (in)voluntarily retire? Was this a case, metaphorically speaking, of “I quit! No, you’re sacked!”? Regardless, I thought Martyn Percy’s essay and overview was masterful, containing a great deal of informative background history. I thought the titles of #’s 4 and 6 were especially apt, and sex will always be on the… Read more »
Peter – you have a lot to catch up on!
Resigned, not retired.
It was a moment where the entire UK press were going to talk about how he had to resign until he did.
Lots of this on TA.
If a Resignation leads to being paid a Pension it is technically a Retirement, especially if as a result of a Resignation a person transitions from a working life to a Life of Retirement, so it is both Resignation and Retirement, for if it was just a Resignation Bishop Welby would not be paid a Church Pension at all. Jonathan
Ok, Technically a retirement. ‘Took early retirement’ means gave way to he inevitable.
I think we as Anglicans are interesting and even attractive to many Christians of different denominations because at our best we live in a theologically complex and interesting place. It means we have something that is complex and nuanced that others respect, even if we don’t.
In the USA ‘anglican’ is attractive because it represents an ordered liturgy and a claim to antiquity, saints, continuity in church history. The Prayer Book (and not denominational confessions or black letter canon law) can serve as an ecumenical beacon, and does. In my experience, ‘anglican’ isn’t attractive because it honors complexity. A place like Wheaton College or Baylor shows students attracted to anglicanism (not so much TEC) for the reasons above, and also because the complex party strife they have experienced in Reformed and Evangelical contexts they have wearied from. If you try to introduce them to anglican-TEC strife,… Read more »
Agreed. As an early Pilgrim on that very road, before, I think, it was even called that, many of us saw the chance for a fuller expression of the Christian faith in the Anglican tradition and have even stuck with the task of laboring for a fuller expression of the faith within TEC even as it has become, charitably, a pretty diminished version of the faith.
I was discussing this very thing with a young man in his 20s only last week. He finds himself drawn into Christianity, and he is exploring the Orthodox Church precisely because of the “ordered liturgy and a claim to antiquity, saints, continuity in church history” that you describe. He says that he is “just drawn towards it“. The problem is that he is deeply troubled by that church’s conservative attitude to issues around gender and sexuality, which go against much that he believes in. Is it possible to find a church community which offers access to this more ordered and… Read more »
You might ask yourself why this is so. Orthodoxy organises itself around the Second Century (read John Behr’s many works). It does not have the same Whig account of history, as invariable “progress.” To declare the long history of the church as worthy of attention, respect, and curiosity–in its length and breadth–is to question any simple view of “we now know this to be true.” Catholicity has avoided what Chesterton called chronological snobbery. Obviously progressives are entitled to their own position in this matter.
Thanks, that is helpful.
“He says that he is ‘just drawn towards it’….The problem is that he is deeply troubled by that ….which go against much that he believes in.” There is an interesting tension or dichotomy in these two statements. It resonates. I was in a similar situation at that same age when I left the Catholicism of my upbringing for Anglicanism. One of the ways of sifting the kind of inner conflict you seem to be describing is to ask one’s self; what am I drawn toward? and What am I moved toward. These are two different questions, or at the very… Read more »
Thanks Ruaridh. Is this new spelling of your name an acknowledgement of your Caledonian ancestry? I like it. There is a helpful truth in Anglican Priest’s response: this is the way it is, it’s not going to change, deal with it. But your response offers ways of dealing with it. I like your distinction between what am I drawn towards by something outside me, and what am I moved towards by my own inner experience and volition. I also agree with you about the shadow side of religion. That for me personally is a huge issue. How you deal with… Read more »
“this is the way it is, it’s not going to change, deal with it.” You asked a question about churches whose orientation is toward the deposit of past teaching. The Liturgy of the Orthodox church has never gone through ‘liturgical renewal’ as the idea makes no sense to them. I am not saying ‘deal with it.’ I am trying to describe a different orientation. If people want to create churches with historical liturgies and saints and so forth, that are also progressive, they could be describing Anglicanism in much of its present mode. How that makes theological sense would be… Read more »
Anglican Priest
I read your comment as a helpful challenge – this material and practise and teaching has been around for almost 2000 years, so it must have value, so encounter it as it is and seek the value in it, rather than want it to change. Sorry if my abrupt answer seemed dismissive. It was not meant to be.
I will explore your post below. Thanks.
Appreciate your response. I teach the history of biblical interpretation from Origen to the Reformers. My book Convergences: Canon and Catholicity sought to make the case for ‘catholicity’ as constituted by this long history of interpretation (among other things). It looked closely at the three parties active at Vatican 2, with sympathy for the ressourcement scholars (as against conservative Trent/Thomists or excited historical critics wanting to have some common territory with protestant scholarship). Behr reviewed my book and I have some understanding of his ‘second century’ emphasis vis-a-vis scripture, on one side, and his rejection of ‘OT limps while NT… Read more »
https://www.ascensionlafayette.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/EChurch-PARISH-PROFILE-2024.pdf
This ad is at the top of the Living Church masthead. It is an Episcopal-Anglican parish. It holds up the things being referred to here.
I see no reference to LGBT+ issues and have no idea whether that is part of the “orthodox, sacramental, scriptural”
guiding vision they emphasize.
Looks like a nice post if people are interested!
Looks admirable and diverse. However much I stayed in Houston, I never visited Louisiana. i used to travel west along Highway 10 to San Antonio for R&R. One day, got to do concentrated tour to listen to blues bands.
https://youtu.be/jjLQXQM6G4Y?si=OavefXsE0DTaciLN
Interesting to me is how it is honestly, on the ground ‘diverse’, and never mentions it as a goal. My father was the Headmaster of an Episcopal School in Shreveport for several years (my parents were not southerners). I was told LA is three regions, “cajun, creole, redneck.’ Shreveport (redneck; a positive term for farmer) was the least ‘diverse’ of the other two regions to the south. A lot of Caribbean Blacks, European feel. Anglican liturgy (high-church) has a certain resonance. My own classmates in boarding school where from these two southern regions, including Gustaf Rheinhold McIlhenney of Tabasco Sauce… Read more »
Love creole/cajun food. Loved crawfish in Houston in season, with the spices. The shells would scratch your fingers, and the spices sting a little. Seafood gumbo is the greatest.
I used to frequent Goode’s.
https://entertainhouston.com/10-places-with-best-gumbo-in-houston/
Please pray for St. Mark’s Episcopal Church in Altadena, which burnt down on Wednesday. I had a wonderful summer there in the 1980s as part of my ordination training. Many of St. Mark’s congregation will have lost their homes.
it says:
If the new rector is married, it is expected that his or her spouse would lovingly and actively support the rector and become an energetic member of the parish.
which implies they would be OK wth a woman rector.
That does not surprise me in the least. But it doesn’t tend to be an issue in the same way one finds in the CofE.
Such an ad in the UK would be illegal! You can only appoint the applicant, not their spouse. What if they are in the later point of a degenerative illness? What if they are RC? What if they have a job in the health area that means they are frequently on call on Sundays?
Noticed that as well. In our diocese ( I’m in Canada) The Parochial Committee that works with the diocesan bishop in the appointment process is prohibited from asking applicants questions about their marital status or family life. Additionally, we have had several situations over the years where one of our clergy is married to an ordained person serving another denomination e.g. a priest married to a United Church of Canada minister. We have examples where a priest is married to an active Roman Catholic lay person. We also have clergy who are in same sex marriages. I have a colleague… Read more »
Sure Simon, and you are able to offer those responses from your own perspective and in the context of an in person conversation. This is an instance where I find online conversation so limiting. You may have noticed that in my previous comment I made a passing distinction between religious reflection and theological reflection. I think the distinction between religion and theology very helpful. There is not space here nor is this the format to provide context for that distinction. It is one I grew to appreciate from my reading, particularly of both Wilfred Cantwell Smith and Bernard Lonergan. In… Read more »
Thanks Ruairidh.
I think you and I are in the same ballpark here, but your phraseology brings helpful clarification. Religious versus Theological reflection for example.
This is so true (in my being a just-about outsider but repeat reentrant into, the C of E). In Guarding the Holy Fire Roger Steer cites a remark by Dr Percy in his 1997 review of a 1996 Lewis & McGrath compilation (on a Packer birthday). Dr Percy connected what he called some sort of “social abrogation” (and follow my thoughts below) with the 1966 “rebutting” of Lloyd-Jones. It’s been commented that C of E conservative evangelicals had until the mid 1990s to get their brains in gear, where I place the welcome start of women vicars, the advent of dominionism (an erastianism… Read more »
There might be some “complex and interesting” discussions about theology going on amongst the cognoscenti. But a newcomer interested in finding out what the C of E is about could scour the Church website in vain for the slightest glimmer of anything of the sort. It’s as though the last 200 years hadn’t happened.
I am just back from Christmas ‘on the other side of the Pond’. I went to the Christmas morning Communion at Trinity Cathedral in Cleveland OH, which I thoroughly enjoyed.
While discussion of the post-Welby era is interesting, that’s not where we are. For most of 2025, possibly somewhat longer, we are in the Cottrell era. Indeed, it’s likely that Cottrell will initially be the dominant force for some time after that while the new Archbishop of Canterbury finds his (or her) feet.
A period long enough to be endued with Cottrellism (whatever that might be), for chosen people to be made joyful, people to be saved, inheritances blessed, peace and concord?
When I lived in Berkshire I heard ++Stephen preach joyfully on many occasions. On Christmas Morning I was at York Minster and heard him preach. Sadly no joy or vitality.
I recall that when ++Stephen was appointed there were many comments here saying what a good choice he was, such a good and godly man. I fear that the archbishoprics suck the life out of good people and worry the same will continue to happen unless there are some significant changes.
William Temple. Michael Ramsey. Rowan Williams. Robert Runcie. Plenty of life with all of them….excellent godly men.
Yazid Said’s article is a very thoughtful and well researched intervention on the Archbishop Welby era. It is both post-mortem and prospective. As Said notes, ” Often human beings don’t like to confess that they have agendas when reacting to crises.” I know I don’t. His piece is an antidote to some of the toxic disgruntled trolling of both Welby and the C of E that has been afoot. I find his notion of perception a good way in–although I’d have to think more about his heavy reliance on the ‘ocular’ metaphor in terms of the problem of self insight.… Read more »
Yazid Said’s article was interesting to read, but I cannot see any justification at all for an Established Church in a nation where Christians, much less Anglicans, are a minority. Why 26 unelected bishops are allowed to legislate for people of other faiths and none is ridiculous. It is high time to disestablish the Church and remove its power and privileges. The Church of Sweden has actually grown since it was disestablished in 2000, not that I am convinced the CofE would given its fractious nature.