Ian Paul Psephizo Is Church of England ministry sustainable?
Andrew Goddard Psephizo Is there progress on the appointment of a new Archbishop?
John Smith Psephizo The Hidden Limits of Class in the Church
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Living by intuitive, experiential, emotional faith
Ian Paul says that “sticking a building and a vicar somewhere is a romantic illusion, and achieves nothing, unless this person is also building a faith community which is missionally engaged with its surrounding context… without this engagement, central funding just becomes a buildings maintenance fund and a job creation scheme for clergy.” In this way of thinking, only particular priests can be trusted to carry out the “right” sort of mission. If existing systems were adequately resourced and left to their own devices, the inevitable result would be that, in a significant number of cases, the building and vicar… Read more »
It’s not an ‘unconscious desire’, Benjamin. It’s a straightforward explanation. The Church of England needs to match income with expenditure. Small churches with fewer and fewer members giving less and less aren’t sustainable. Priests know how to spend money, but don’t want to raise it. Look at the number of well resourced churches, left to their own devices and still shrinking.
Yesterday at Norwich diocesan synod my colleague the Director of mission and ministry presented a snapshot of statistics for our diocese regarding mission etc.. The clearest signs of growth are in our small rural parishes. The least growth is in the urban areas. This former is in tune with what I observe doing Sunday cover and what incumbents tell me – one present at Synod told me one of her 8 churches had seen 4 new people start attending worship in the last year. None of her congregations gets above 25 people on an average Sunday but across the benefice… Read more »
The cost of keeping a church building open (heating, lighting, maintenance, insurance) is rarely less than £10,000 per year. It is difficult for a congregation of 25 people to cover these costs and pay for part of costs of a stipendiary priest. We need either exclusively non-stipendiary/lay ministry or to close large numbers of church buildings.
The idea that a congregation should pay part of the costs of a stipendiary priest – other than expenses – is a relatively new one. It certainly wasn’t the case when I was ordained in 1987. It used to be assumed that wealthier parishes would subsidise poorer ones. I think that is much more in keeping with Gospel principles than the assumption that churches which can’t pay should be shut down, abandoning whole areas without Christian ministry. Imagine if Jesus had only gone to villages where he would be well paid, or the earliest apostles only evangelised where they would… Read more »
If a village of 80 people want a church to themselves then they should jolly well pay for it themselves. Expecting the national chuch to subsidise them is an unreasonable burden.
So, then where should the villagers go for religious service, when the nearest place that can support a church on its own may be miles away?
I suppose the obvious question is, whether the ‘nearest place’ is actually not near. In the secteur pastoral in France where we worshipped, there were 28 parishes within 1 hour of each other. We could hear four angelus ringing at the same time, across the countryside. A scheme was devised to designate 3 churches for the main 11h00 service, and a rota to attend to the others at 9h30. So, the ‘village church of 80’ went to the main 11h00 service and, in addition, to honour their historical existence, every 6 weeks a service at 9h30. The CofE parish reality… Read more »
Sounds like a reason not to live an isolated life if you don’t want to be isolated. They won’t have a Waitrose or easy access to a West End theatre either, but equally people living in Hampstead don’t get the rolling hills and open skies.
That is a strange mission strategy – close churches
That’s the strategy! Look at Chichester’s strategy. They’re applying for funding but are overtly telling rural parishes that they’re not going to get support. Urban only baby. The Church of England’s core concept…of serving the nation…..has died.
Thank you for this. Having worked in large urban churches for most of my ministry I now serve as half time parish priest in a rural village and in the two years I have been here we have seen the congregation more than double, and attract far more young families. The three neighbouring villages have experienced something similar.
Great to hear these reflections on rural church life. Thriving rural parishes where the church is engaged in local life and seeks to welcome all have a lot to teach urban gathered churches. But all too often it’s the urban church which is held up as successful and the model to be copied. When Jeremy Martineau ran the rural church centre at Stoneleigh he often made the point that the small rural church is not a failed urban church but a different kind of church. One other key element is that rural parishes are rarely of a strong theological/ liturgical… Read more »
Let’s learn from those kinds of churches and discover what they’re doing right that other ones can copy.
I don’t think the problem, however, is parish ministry per se but the out-dated way it is organised. A part-time, lay reader leading the Eucharist in his home (let’s face it, many congregations are small enough), in a cheap borrowed room or even outside costs a tiny fraction of the present arrangements. The Church of England is clinging in its pride to things which matter to it rather than to God. There is a place for cathedrals and some large churches but for the bulk of parishes the Church of England should get out of trying to provide ministry directly… Read more »
“A lay reader leading the Eucharist” would mean the group had ceased to be Anglican. How does abolition of the church of England solve the problem? (Please don’t say lay celebrations are ‘modern’ as opposed to ‘out-dated’ ordinations).
If you feel happier ordaining those lay volunteers then do so. I don’t have a problem. Just don’t make them go through years of training or set up other unnecessary barriers.
It’s not what makes me happy as an individual. Ordination is not a personal opinion or optional extra.
You seem to be arguing that the CofE’s problem is that it’s not a collective of 1970s house churches.
No, I am arguing that the Church of England treats little corner shops as though they are big hyper stores instead of having a service delivery model adapted to the size of the location. If a location has to be closed because the numbers are too small then rather than shut doing things differently is sensible.
The problem there is that you’re treating the CoE as if it’s a retail corporation. It’s not. God is as present in a congregation of 8 as in one of 80.
“God is as present in a congregation of 8 as in one of 80.”
Which is a lovely sentiment. Now, how do those eight pay the bills for running a church building and the incumbent’s wages? Building’s going to be £10000, wages plus on-costs let’s say £38000 to keep the numbers easy. Those 8 need to stump up £6000 each, per year, or alternatively find other people willing to do it on their behalf. Who should pay that?
In his 1975 enthronement sermon as ABC Donald Coggan said ‘No longer can we rely on dead men’s money, or fail to tithe our income in a businesslike fashion’.
I absolutely agree. But you are labouring under the misapprehension that a service with all the trimmings is somehow better than a simple Eucharist where people share a small loaf of bread and a small bottle of wine. It’s not.
And in so doing finally abandon the claim to Catholic order
So? I care about securing worship of God, including regular Eucharists in every community, not “Catholic order”.
You can’t have a regular Eucharist without Catholic order. You still haven’t grasped the point.. Lay people celebrating a ‘eucharist’ in their back room doesn’t constitute the Catholic Church no matter how nice and well-meaning the people are.
Can you show me a Gospel verse supporting that claim?
Yes, that’s what Jesus said. ‘Wherever a large and wealthy congregation are gathered, there am I in the midst of them.’ The message is reinforced in Revelation, where the big and successful churches get the most praise. Not.
Those small and ‘failing’ churches may be a very valuable witness in their sparse or disheartened communities. And small grants may make a big difference to them.
Totally agree with you Janet. The issue for many small, faithful congregations, both rural and urban, is the cost of maintaining, heating etc listed buildings. Grants towards modern, multipurpose buildings, well insulated with heat pumps etc would enable them to be an even greater witness for Christ in their communities.
Nearly every village with a struggling church around where I live already has a village hall, nearly every one of which is well heated, and has wheelchair access, toilets, and a good car park.
Perhaps a grant and process which creates ways for such a hall to used for a Eucharistic service, alongside its many other functions, might take the burden of maintaining an outdated church building off the local church congregation
Exactly!
A few rural churches have closed, usually where village life has become entrophied, but the numbers remain small. Why is this? Because rural communities have an attachment to their parish churches unimaginable in most urban settings and incomprehensible to champions of the trite “the church is people, not the building”.
But the church is the people, whether they meet in a purpose built building, or under a tree, or in a school, in a former shop unit, pub, nightclub, office whatever. In Acts 14 they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them. People gathered, NOT buildings.
And if people were perfectly spherical models of New Testament disciples I’m sure that would work well. When people’s faith practice is rooted in a particular place we have to acknowledge that and its consequences, even if we think it shouldn’t be the case. Sure, it would be great if we could rely on people to turn up to whatever building the church may be meeting in, and not be fazed by the closure and sale of old and inefficient buildings, but that’s not the situation we’re in and it’s silly to pretend otherwise or stamp our feet and demand… Read more »
Of course the Church is the people; who would want to deny that. But let’s avoid simplistic binaries. Our parish churches are repositories of memory to which people can have a strong emotional attachment. That aside, in many of our villages the Church – the Body of Christ – is culturally earthed chiefly through the parish church, even (especially!) for those who are rarely seen there. The refrain “the Church is people, not buildings” acquired legs during the lockdowns, and it was necessary that it did. But that was then and this is now. It is the building that… Read more »
A church in Sheffield has taken over a nightclub to reach the thousands of 20/30 year olds living in city centre apartments, including the asylum seekers housed there.
I agree about avoiding simplistic binaries. Whether a church survives or not is a complex mixture of location, history, the quality, design and facilities of the church, the type of worship it offers, the catchment, the congregation, and the quality of the leadership team. To say it is only about the church building is too simplistic. In my team benefice we have 8 Anglican churches, 4 of which have a long and impressive history, and one is grade 1 listed. One of those historic Churches is now in the care of the historic Churches trust, one is a festival church,… Read more »
this – which is (by the way) why multi-church benefices are a non-solving solution. IME the majority go to only what is happening in ‘their’ parish. A minority chase Holy Communion round the benefice weekly.
The rural church and the urban church are almost different denominations in their experience and behaviour, never mind churchmanship arguments.
I was intrigued to see in this week’s Church Times an advert headlined “One Parish + One Priest + God’s Holy Presence. Embodying faith through presence and relationship in the Totnes Team”. It then goes on to say they’re looking for two house-for-duty priests “as part of our strategy to put priests back into parishes.”
It will be very interesting to see the outcome in a diocese, Exeter, that has invested heavily in multi-parish rural benefices.
You think because something is ‘valuable’ it doesn’t need to be paid for? Where’s the money going to come from? The only way for the Church of England to continue to exist is to spend money on things which are economically sustainable. If we keep spending money on things which have no financial return, eventually the money will run out, regardless of how ‘valuable’ you think they are.
A church that is only interested in “financial return” is not a religion, it’s a business.
“A church that is only interested in “financial return” is not a religion, it’s a business.” Which is a lovely sentiment, but one which you are inventing out of whole cloth. No-one, at least not here, is saying a church should be only interested in financial return. The church does, nonetheless, need to pay its bills. Sure, there have in the past been monks making vows of poverty, but ultimately someone — that someone often being the historic equivalent of “the state” — picked up the bills and provided the premises. Even wandering monks under the 1209 rule of Saint… Read more »
So much of this is intertwined with the complexities of the Church of England and how it handles the support of churches. The whole idea of a central distribution of funds across the length and breadth of the CofE has no analogy in the USA anglican world. I did stewardship work for the national church in the 80s and that work focused on parishes and individual giving up-ticks, teaching, and so forth. It was thought that if TEC could up its per person giving from a very low 1% to even 3 or 4% per person, the result would be… Read more »
I think the problem is different. Under the present model a significant portion of the cost of maintaining a church is fixed regardless of how much use is made of it. So cutting the number of services effectively makes each service more and more costly. It’s why, at the periphery, I prefer using free or cheap rooms rather than having an expensive dedicated building.
John Smith is right about hidden class prejudices in the C of E. In fact, I think it’s worse than it used to be. Roy Williamson was able to become a bishop despite having a working class background and lacking a university education. George Carey was a working class boy from a council estate and became Archbishop of Canterbury – though he had not only a university education but also an earned PhD. I did the ABM selector training 25 years ago, and there was a marked middle class bias. I complained about it a couple of times, but I… Read more »
So true. I have worked in professional capacities throughout my working life and not met much class prejudice. The church is something else. Selected highlights are being asked if I was the cleaner at a clergy conference, being given magazine articles to read by my tutor instead of articles in books and a senior member of clergy almost dropping his coffee cup when I told him my son attended a Russell Group university. I could go on. I survived 15 years as a member of the clergy. Another senior member of the clergy told me I had a double disadvantage… Read more »
I used to be a member of a national committee which met at Church House Westminster. The first time I went I wore an anorak and flat cloth cap with my dog collar. On the steps I encountered a gentleman in three-piece striped suit who looked at me askance. After that I made a point of dressing down every time I went, and rejoiced in lowering the tone.
Like many I have been wondering (day dreaming?) what I would do if I won the huge EuroMillions jackpot. It’s a valuable thought experiment because it helps one form views on how the Commissioners disburse monies, and their priorities. The £11m for Rochester would be well within the range of possibilities but I am not a fan of church plants, other than in new towns or similarly large developments. Equally, I am not persuaded that a large number of smaller grants to individual parishes is particularly effective. I have recently come across the existence of the Solid Rock Outdoor Ministry… Read more »
‘I am not persuaded that a large number of smaller grants to individual parishes is particularly effective.’
In fact, relatively small grants can be extremely effective. A grant of £11k enabled one of my parishes to get rid of our second-hand pews and replace them with comfortable stackable chairs. This in turn enabled us to use our building for all sorts of events – holiday clubs, scouting groups, parish fairs, carers and tots groups, community liaison meetings, dinners, Messy Church, and so on. It turned us into a much-needed community hub on a neglected estate.
Great to hear of the use of your flexible building Janet. Same here. On Friday a seniors’ club with carpet bowls, games, puzzles etc, Saturday a Christians in Sport quiz night plus refreshments, Sunday three services, Monday Friendly/warm spaces etc.
That sounds like a good use of a grant
The provision of paid clerical ministry on anything like the current scale seems likely to become increasingly problematic once the current cohort of regular attendees dies off in the next few years, and it is the attenuation of regular giving as those attendees die which helps explain the increasing financial distress of the DBFs. This is the rather predictable consequence of the disintegration of the ancient pillars of parish finance and of the half-baked centralisation which has characterised Church policy over the last century – with its confused and unhappy mixture of centralisation and local self-insurance. It might be possible… Read more »
“once the current cohort of regular attendees dies off in the next few years” I would suggest that there’s a double effect there. For all the rending of sheets over “pensioner poverty”, I would warrant that pensioners who able to continue to fund their local church are better off than their equivalents will be in twenty years’ time. It’s not just that the CofE failed to replenish, it’s that it became reliant on the elderly at all. Even if you accept, which I don’t, that people somehow “grow into” regular church going, the current cohort 75-90 are in many cases… Read more »
Absolutely, and I am a case in point. I was born at the end of 1975. I have tried to save pretty hard into my defined contribution schemes, but am still well short of the lifetime allowance, although I might be near it by the time I reach retirement age (if I am lucky). I have to care for parents who are 80, but have no DB entitlements, and who just have the state pension. However, I have a younger sibling who has a degenerative and incurable physical condition (as well as mental health issues), who will never work, but… Read more »
Very sobering indeed. The church is supposed to be the place where the dire realities you describe are faced, pastorally confronted, addressed with care and theological intelligence/sacramental balm, within a community. Ironically, your description makes it sound fairly likely that the church isn’t going to outlast much of that, if at all, except on very different terms than your trajectory now allows. God bless.
I should add that revivals are certainly possible. At Bintree in central Norfolk I attended the first service last Advent which had been advertised in nearly a decade, and the church was packed out. It was lay led, and the gentleman who took the service remarked that this might be some sort of justification for a revival, though no services have since been provided. At Keyston in Huntingdonshire there has latterly been only one service a year, but last Advent it was also packed and the newish incumbent noted that it might warrant a revival of more regular provision (and… Read more »
I don’t think this discussion has touched on the question of just how many dedicated “Christian worship spaces” are needed in one place. I know that there are examples of sharing spaces but surely this now needs much more urgent attention? As for “God being as present” in a congregation of 8 as in one of 80, my view is that God is everywhere and might even, for example, be found in a United Reformed Church as well as an Anglican Church or even on the Clapham omnibus or by a lone walker on a quiet woodland path. The suggestion… Read more »
I’m aware of at least 2 villages in my part of England where the parish churches are campaigning to encourage their 20th century village halls to close and move into the medieval parish church…
My own village (not one of the above) I’m pretty confident would see the end of Christian worship if we closed the 12th century building and tried to make people go into the village hall.
Place shouldn’t matter as much as it seems to in English village religion. But, nevertheless, it frequently does.
Gosh- Charity abounds…. I’ve been away for the weekend and returned having attended one of the nicest services I have been to for a long time at the church of the Blessed Virgin in Warley. The incumbent, despite having another bigger church, manages to hold a regular weekly service there at the same time every Sunday , and a good sermon was preached by the Churchwarden. Then back to read in this thread that if a village of 80 people want a church to themselves they should jolly well pay for it themselves – if they live in a pleasant… Read more »
Two factors seem worth considering. First, if the national church has identified a pattern of church structure/activity that is likely to succeed/grow locally, is it a single monolithic pattern or might it take different forms in different places and with different current congregations? And second, is the national church really trying to encourage patterns of success (by making funding conditional on adopting those patterns), or is it simply imposing its preferred pattern of failure? Which boils down to a question of evidence: if funding is contingent on adopting particular patterns, is there any hard evidence that works. And if not,… Read more »
Some problems regarding Christian ‘class’ are hidden in plain sight – they’re obvious to those who don’t ‘belong’, but completely concealed to many who do. Some years ago I was talking with some friends who hailed from the back end of Smethwick, a single income working family whose wage earner was a security guard in the old Bull Ring Market. One of the big charismatic groups had recently decided to start hosting its rallies at the NEC, the entrance prices being sufficiently steep that the events were quite beyond the family’s reach, and my friend was not impressed. He then… Read more »