It’s long since time we did away with the idea of tainted hands, and accepted our differences of opinion in love without the ridiculous idea of flying bishops. It’s God who blesses people according to God’s will, regardless of who is asking.
David Hawkins
22 hours ago
“These painful reports serve as a stark reminder that victims and survivors are asking for – and deserve – more than words of lament. They call us to action.” This is followed by a totally complacent description of the existing safeguarding structure. Isn’t it patently obvious that if the “professional” safeguarding bureaucracy was really professional then the Church of England wouldn’t be in this mess? I don’t want “action” Archbishop, I don’t need or want a pay off I just need proper pastoral care in other words I just need some Christian love from just one of the priests in… Read more »
Ian Hobbs
22 hours ago
As a retired with PTO who received the ABofY letter:
In the currrent circumstances tagging on the Bishops by using brackets annoyed me. The episcopate first and foremost might have been more appropriate. Or am I being unreasonable?
Crucial question…who becomes the employer for whom?
” It may also be the time to look again at clergy terms of service to increase accountability (including that of bishops) and possibly ask the question as to whether clergy should become employees.”
Fr Andrew
21 hours ago
“It may also be the time to look again at clergy terms of service to increase accountability”
That sounds really good for clergy wellbeing. Without AB Stephen being more specific about what he means this sounds like another episcopal power grab.
Who are the bishops going to be employed by? Employment implies the direction of your work by your employer, who then compensates your lack of freedom to spend your time as you choose, by giving you remuneration. So who will fulfill this role for the bishops?
Whilst understanding the reasons why Justin Welby had to resign. I find it a bit odd that his standing down has not really been marked. i wasnt expecting a grand farewell as thats not appropriate but for the Archbishop of York to mention ihim only once in his letter just seems a bit rude. I get that the Welby Family. just want to slip away. But they have contributed a lot in the past decade I hope that at some point there can be a reconciliation because that was a theme of their ministry I say the family because ministry… Read more »
Reconciliation with whom? The survivors of church abuse who have fared so badly during Welby’s tenure? Perhaps, after some time out and some healing, Welby might be able to genuinely listen empathetically to survivors and victims and offer some kind of meaningful apology and restitution. I can’t see reconciliation happening in any other way – but I don’t hold out much hope for it.
The lack of any acknowledgement of what he has achieved – and the significant personal cost to Justin and Caroline – is I think deeply sad and a product of the extraordinary situation in which we find ourselves. I hope Christian history will not judge us too harshly. Much of what they have achieved will be well below the radar; pastoral conversations with all sorts of people in the public eye, visits to places which were worried they had even forgotten and pastoral letters to individuals and, of course, as with all of us, we shall never know this side… Read more »
Richard Ashby
20 hours ago
Stand alone services for same sex couples are already approved by Synod. No further consideration is either necessary or required. What is necessary is for the approval to be implemented and soon. Or is this yet another attempt by the bishops to row back on Synod’s decision and postpone the day when they have to act? I was interested to hear on the radio the other day a commentator say that when the bishops get to gather they fight like rats in a sack. Is this why they can’t make any decisions and why the church is in such an… Read more »
That’s not quite how liturgical authorization works, I think. Authorised services (which are alternative to services in the BCP) must be authorized by all three Houses of the General Synod, and the final form of the texts must have been introduced to the Synod by the House of Bishops. As for commended services, the final text is determined by the House of Bishops and is commended by them. An earlier vote in the Synod is a request to the House of Bishops to proceed, but it is the prerogative of that House to determine what shall be introduced and when.
Simon you are right on process – the suite of resources called the Prayers of Love and Faith have been commended by the House of Bishops for use, that is clergy may use them if they wish. They have not been authorised. Richard is also correct that standalone services incorporating the PLF material are possible for clergy to use now, and does not require further permission from the House of Bishops. Essentially the commendation by the HoB confirmed their view that the PLF material is not contrary to or indicative of any departure from the doctrine of the Church of… Read more »
TimP
20 hours ago
Lots of things to comment on… I want to pick up “and possibly ask the question as to whether clergy should become employees” I remember a number of years ago thinking the change from ‘Freehold’ ‘Common-tenure’ was doing that… then realising it didn’t was still a type of office-holding. I wonder if anyone would like to explain/defend the value in being office-holders rather than employees? For the individual and the Church? Certainly a number of the high-profile criticism recently (I’m referring to vicars who couldn’t be fired even though “everyone knew”) may have been fixed if they had been employees.… Read more »
Would the Oxford movement, or the Evangelical revival within the C of E have been possible without the independence of thought and action enabled by Freehold office holding? There’s enough grey conformist managerialism within the C of E already. My subversive take is that greater localism and organisational looseness will be more fertile for renewal and revival, than an ever burgeoning culture of control and compliance. But I guess some TA voices would rather call for better managers, rather than fewer, or less empowered of the same.
I am not sure it’s an argument for keeping it, but it raises difficult questions about self-supporting/unpaid/non-stipendiary ordained ministry. How will it be possible to have unpaid employees, especially if in long-term open-ended roles (e.g. self-supporting associate minister/vicar)? If it’s not possible to make it work, legally, then what will happen to the self-supporting clergy of the Church of England? Will it/they be abolished? What impact would that have on parishes and chaplaincies? The CofE has come to rely quite significantly on self-supporting ordained ministry, even if I had noticed a recent shift to promote lay ministry over self-supporting ordained… Read more »
What is the status of Special Constables or reservists in the armed forces? Are they employees? Not an exact comparison with NSM or retired clergy with PTO, I know.
Andrew Godsall
19 hours ago
I find this letter from Archbishop Stephen profoundly disappointing. Platitude after platitude, all well meaning, but without grasping at all the fact that the CofE is in dire straits. He seems to be suggesting that if we just tinker with a few things then all will be well. No hint that a total reform of governance is needed for one thing. No suggestion that the AC must go. No acknowledgment of the disaster that the Strategic Development Fund and the whole vision and strategy stuff has unleashed. And then he lobs in a suggestion that clergy should become employees. Fine.… Read more »
Kate Keates
15 hours ago
I would summarise this as:
“I am not resigning”
James Allport
6 hours ago
Presumably, were clergy to become employees, the church’s current exemptions under equality legislation would have to be re-negotiated? That might be challenging.
Not sure about that. I think you can employ someone to do Christian work in a church e.g. as a Youth Worker and apply exemptions. I’m not convinced that employing clergy will improve the church, but I think you could still insist that only Christians apply.
David Runcorn
5 hours ago
The Archbishop, in his letter which I personally found helpful, makes the suggestion that clergy need a more formal employment structure. The idea is not a new one. In The Times today, Professor Linda Woodhead observes what a big change this would be and notes ‘if clergy become employees they are then subject to the same codes of discipline and conduct as the rest of us. This would certainly solve some of our current problems around dealing with clergy sexual misconduct.’ Precisely. What is the problem? In the same Times article Fr Marcus Walker, like others here, can only see… Read more »
Independence is two edged. It can enable fertile creativity and prophetic boldness. It can veil laziness and worse. Compliance cultures can arguably make us safer, and even more efficient in some ways. But they can tend towards blandness and intellectual incuriosity. The comparison between the teachers who educated me in the 1970s-80s and those in schools today is stark. But of course schools are much safer places so we have gained more than we have lost. Though … if the Bishop of Newcastle were a subordinate employee to the ABY as a line manager, would things have played out in… Read more »
David, I think the issue is one of trust rather than a desire for independence. Given the, to be generous, fallible and ofttimes incompetent exercise of current episcopal powers it’s difficult to welcome the idea of giving bishops even more power, to wreak more damage on the church. More powers in matters of safeguarding, sexual misconduct etc. of course, who could argue against that? But it won’t stop there will it? And will ‘sexual misconduct’ be defined by secular law or some notion of biblical ethics, thus giving conservatives free rein to hound LGBT people? Morale is at a nadir… Read more »
But wouldn’t the same changes in employment structure also be applied to bishops. They would become employees also. So it might be possible, perhaps for the first time, to properly hold bishops to account.
I note that the army recently had no problems court-martialling and sacking a major general for sexual misconduct. Seniority need not be a bar to accountability if the governance structure are right.
I would argue against more powers in matters of safeguarding for this reason. It is very hard to impose safety from above. We need a bottom up church not more of top down managerialism. Last Sunday I was privileged to attend online a Confirmation and Baptism service at Newport Cathedral..Each young person read a statement saying why they wanted to be confirmed. They were all very nervous of course but to me it was exceeding important because it was a formal recognition of the voice of each young person. If you have a voice, if you are valued and respected,… Read more »
More than one thing can be true at once. Yes, one well-aired issue is the difficulties of removing misbehaving clergy, and employment status would help that issue. But another well-aired issue is the trend to managerialism, and employment status would make that much worse. Presumably we can acknowledge the one without denying the other.
David I think you raise very fair questions but I do want to respond further. Firstly, I haven’t read Linda Woodhead’s piece but why does she single out sexual misconduct, and what does she mean by it? Would clergy in same sex partnerships become more vulnerable if they were employees? Would single clergy staying over with their boyfriends or girlfriends be subject to ‘discipline’? Because I suspect they all would. And what about clergy who gossip? Clergy who lie? Clergy who discriminate against women? I would be surprised if Linda is fixated on sex but I know the CofE is… Read more »
It’s long since time we did away with the idea of tainted hands, and accepted our differences of opinion in love without the ridiculous idea of flying bishops. It’s God who blesses people according to God’s will, regardless of who is asking.
“These painful reports serve as a stark reminder that victims and survivors are asking for – and deserve – more than words of lament. They call us to action.” This is followed by a totally complacent description of the existing safeguarding structure. Isn’t it patently obvious that if the “professional” safeguarding bureaucracy was really professional then the Church of England wouldn’t be in this mess? I don’t want “action” Archbishop, I don’t need or want a pay off I just need proper pastoral care in other words I just need some Christian love from just one of the priests in… Read more »
As a retired with PTO who received the ABofY letter:
” It may also be the time to look again at clergy terms of service to increase accountability (including that of bishops) and possibly ask the question as to whether clergy should become employees.”
“It may also be the time to look again at clergy terms of service to increase accountability”
That sounds really good for clergy wellbeing. Without AB Stephen being more specific about what he means this sounds like another episcopal power grab.
Who are the bishops going to be employed by? Employment implies the direction of your work by your employer, who then compensates your lack of freedom to spend your time as you choose, by giving you remuneration. So who will fulfill this role for the bishops?
King Charles ?
Whilst understanding the reasons why Justin Welby had to resign. I find it a bit odd that his standing down has not really been marked. i wasnt expecting a grand farewell as thats not appropriate but for the Archbishop of York to mention ihim only once in his letter just seems a bit rude. I get that the Welby Family. just want to slip away. But they have contributed a lot in the past decade I hope that at some point there can be a reconciliation because that was a theme of their ministry I say the family because ministry… Read more »
Reconciliation with whom? The survivors of church abuse who have fared so badly during Welby’s tenure? Perhaps, after some time out and some healing, Welby might be able to genuinely listen empathetically to survivors and victims and offer some kind of meaningful apology and restitution. I can’t see reconciliation happening in any other way – but I don’t hold out much hope for it.
The lack of any acknowledgement of what he has achieved – and the significant personal cost to Justin and Caroline – is I think deeply sad and a product of the extraordinary situation in which we find ourselves. I hope Christian history will not judge us too harshly. Much of what they have achieved will be well below the radar; pastoral conversations with all sorts of people in the public eye, visits to places which were worried they had even forgotten and pastoral letters to individuals and, of course, as with all of us, we shall never know this side… Read more »
Stand alone services for same sex couples are already approved by Synod. No further consideration is either necessary or required. What is necessary is for the approval to be implemented and soon. Or is this yet another attempt by the bishops to row back on Synod’s decision and postpone the day when they have to act? I was interested to hear on the radio the other day a commentator say that when the bishops get to gather they fight like rats in a sack. Is this why they can’t make any decisions and why the church is in such an… Read more »
That’s not quite how liturgical authorization works, I think. Authorised services (which are alternative to services in the BCP) must be authorized by all three Houses of the General Synod, and the final form of the texts must have been introduced to the Synod by the House of Bishops. As for commended services, the final text is determined by the House of Bishops and is commended by them. An earlier vote in the Synod is a request to the House of Bishops to proceed, but it is the prerogative of that House to determine what shall be introduced and when.
Simon you are right on process – the suite of resources called the Prayers of Love and Faith have been commended by the House of Bishops for use, that is clergy may use them if they wish. They have not been authorised. Richard is also correct that standalone services incorporating the PLF material are possible for clergy to use now, and does not require further permission from the House of Bishops. Essentially the commendation by the HoB confirmed their view that the PLF material is not contrary to or indicative of any departure from the doctrine of the Church of… Read more »
Lots of things to comment on… I want to pick up “and possibly ask the question as to whether clergy should become employees” I remember a number of years ago thinking the change from ‘Freehold’ ‘Common-tenure’ was doing that… then realising it didn’t was still a type of office-holding. I wonder if anyone would like to explain/defend the value in being office-holders rather than employees? For the individual and the Church? Certainly a number of the high-profile criticism recently (I’m referring to vicars who couldn’t be fired even though “everyone knew”) may have been fixed if they had been employees.… Read more »
Would the Oxford movement, or the Evangelical revival within the C of E have been possible without the independence of thought and action enabled by Freehold office holding? There’s enough grey conformist managerialism within the C of E already. My subversive take is that greater localism and organisational looseness will be more fertile for renewal and revival, than an ever burgeoning culture of control and compliance. But I guess some TA voices would rather call for better managers, rather than fewer, or less empowered of the same.
I am not sure it’s an argument for keeping it, but it raises difficult questions about self-supporting/unpaid/non-stipendiary ordained ministry. How will it be possible to have unpaid employees, especially if in long-term open-ended roles (e.g. self-supporting associate minister/vicar)? If it’s not possible to make it work, legally, then what will happen to the self-supporting clergy of the Church of England? Will it/they be abolished? What impact would that have on parishes and chaplaincies? The CofE has come to rely quite significantly on self-supporting ordained ministry, even if I had noticed a recent shift to promote lay ministry over self-supporting ordained… Read more »
I don’t see ordination as a barrier to volunteering. Various heritage railways have volunteer train drivers which I would see as an analogue.
What is the status of Special Constables or reservists in the armed forces? Are they employees? Not an exact comparison with NSM or retired clergy with PTO, I know.
I find this letter from Archbishop Stephen profoundly disappointing. Platitude after platitude, all well meaning, but without grasping at all the fact that the CofE is in dire straits. He seems to be suggesting that if we just tinker with a few things then all will be well. No hint that a total reform of governance is needed for one thing. No suggestion that the AC must go. No acknowledgment of the disaster that the Strategic Development Fund and the whole vision and strategy stuff has unleashed. And then he lobs in a suggestion that clergy should become employees. Fine.… Read more »
I would summarise this as:
“I am not resigning”
Presumably, were clergy to become employees, the church’s current exemptions under equality legislation would have to be re-negotiated? That might be challenging.
Not sure about that. I think you can employ someone to do Christian work in a church e.g. as a Youth Worker and apply exemptions. I’m not convinced that employing clergy will improve the church, but I think you could still insist that only Christians apply.
The Archbishop, in his letter which I personally found helpful, makes the suggestion that clergy need a more formal employment structure. The idea is not a new one. In The Times today, Professor Linda Woodhead observes what a big change this would be and notes ‘if clergy become employees they are then subject to the same codes of discipline and conduct as the rest of us. This would certainly solve some of our current problems around dealing with clergy sexual misconduct.’ Precisely. What is the problem? In the same Times article Fr Marcus Walker, like others here, can only see… Read more »
Independence is two edged. It can enable fertile creativity and prophetic boldness. It can veil laziness and worse. Compliance cultures can arguably make us safer, and even more efficient in some ways. But they can tend towards blandness and intellectual incuriosity. The comparison between the teachers who educated me in the 1970s-80s and those in schools today is stark. But of course schools are much safer places so we have gained more than we have lost. Though … if the Bishop of Newcastle were a subordinate employee to the ABY as a line manager, would things have played out in… Read more »
David, I think the issue is one of trust rather than a desire for independence. Given the, to be generous, fallible and ofttimes incompetent exercise of current episcopal powers it’s difficult to welcome the idea of giving bishops even more power, to wreak more damage on the church. More powers in matters of safeguarding, sexual misconduct etc. of course, who could argue against that? But it won’t stop there will it? And will ‘sexual misconduct’ be defined by secular law or some notion of biblical ethics, thus giving conservatives free rein to hound LGBT people? Morale is at a nadir… Read more »
But wouldn’t the same changes in employment structure also be applied to bishops. They would become employees also. So it might be possible, perhaps for the first time, to properly hold bishops to account.
I note that the army recently had no problems court-martialling and sacking a major general for sexual misconduct. Seniority need not be a bar to accountability if the governance structure are right.
I would argue against more powers in matters of safeguarding for this reason. It is very hard to impose safety from above. We need a bottom up church not more of top down managerialism. Last Sunday I was privileged to attend online a Confirmation and Baptism service at Newport Cathedral..Each young person read a statement saying why they wanted to be confirmed. They were all very nervous of course but to me it was exceeding important because it was a formal recognition of the voice of each young person. If you have a voice, if you are valued and respected,… Read more »
More than one thing can be true at once. Yes, one well-aired issue is the difficulties of removing misbehaving clergy, and employment status would help that issue. But another well-aired issue is the trend to managerialism, and employment status would make that much worse. Presumably we can acknowledge the one without denying the other.
David I think you raise very fair questions but I do want to respond further. Firstly, I haven’t read Linda Woodhead’s piece but why does she single out sexual misconduct, and what does she mean by it? Would clergy in same sex partnerships become more vulnerable if they were employees? Would single clergy staying over with their boyfriends or girlfriends be subject to ‘discipline’? Because I suspect they all would. And what about clergy who gossip? Clergy who lie? Clergy who discriminate against women? I would be surprised if Linda is fixated on sex but I know the CofE is… Read more »