Well said that fellow!!
About time that someone gave a hard push back and responded line by line to their exaggerated claims and disproportionate responses.
Last edited 2 days ago by Graham Watts
Adrian Clarke
2 days ago
So the Bishop of Oxford does not think that setting up a parallel province is proportionate given the limited scope of the proposals ie blessing of same sex marriage, but does think that same sex marriage would be a departure from essential doctrine. The fact is that anyone under the current proposal could get married in a registry office and turn up for a blessing of their marriage in church a few days later all the trimmings associated with it. My daughter and her now husband followed a similar process, but the bishop thinks they are not properly married in… Read more »
Adrian. The service of dedication after a civil marriage and the PLF do not look alike at all. The Preface for the former makes it very clear that the CofE considers it Holy Matrimony, the marriage vows are repeated, as are the declarations and the blessing of the rings and, although the nuptial blessing is not given, a choice of thanksgiving prayers is given, some of them very similar indeed. And it can be followed by the same nuptial mass / eucharist as any run of the mill church wedding. The PLF have none of those features. It does not… Read more »
Bishop Stephen draws a distinction between blessing of marriage and solemnization of marriage. This is a distinction that the C of E has held ever since we started allowing the blessing of marriage, but not the marriage service, for divorcees. So the distinction he is drawing is recognised as valid.
I don’t see where Bishop Stephen says he thinks that couples such as your daughter and her husband are not properly married in the eyes of the Church. They were not married in church, but that’s not the same as saying the Church says they’re not properly married.
In much of continental Europe you must get married in a civil ceremony before getting married in church. In the Greek island of Syros, which has a mixed Catholic and Orthodox population, it is quite usual to get married three times. One civil ceremony is followed by a Catholic and Orthodox ceremony. All three ceremonies often occur on the same day.
T Pott
1 day ago
The bishop says: “I readily accept that a B2 process would be needed for the Church of England solemnising same sex marriage in Church. This would be a change of doctrine.” Yet Canon B2 says that services authorised by it must be such that in the opinion of the General Synod are neither contrary to, nor indicative of any departure from, the doctrine of the Church of England in any essential matter. The bishop seems to think that what he calls a B2 process could be used to change the doctrine of the Church. This is precisely what is expressly… Read more »
Last edited 1 day ago by T Pott
Pete Broadbent
1 day ago
Croft has become the gaslighter in chief for the House of Bishops. We know what gaslighters do. They belittle – questioning the extent of the Alliance’s support (para 1). They withhold (“of course it’s not a change of doctrine”) (para 2). They trivialise (“You’re too sensitive and overreacting” (para 4). They divert (“You’re fracturing the body of Christ”) (para 5). They deny (“Your concerns aren’t real, and we can fix it through our pastoral reassurance – there, there”) Classic bullying tactics.
Pete: I worked with you for many years and I know you are a great deal better than this comment of yours. I know that you treated clergy in your episcopal area who were in same sex relationships a great deal better than this comment of yours implies. Many people – and I only speak for myself but I know of many others – found the bullying of Jeffrey John an intolerable and hypocritical line to cross. I know who started that particular line of bullying in the CofE and I know you do as well. It should never have… Read more »
It is a tonic – and should be a welcome voice on Thinking Anglicans – to have a Church of England Bishop (if now retired) such as Pete Broadbent speak in plain English.
He leaves you in no doubt what he thinks. What a difference it would make if his former episcopal colleagues would do the same from both sides of the argument.
I hope I did treat LGBTI clergy well. I hope I still do. This is about changing the doctrine, ethics and liturgy of the CofE. Which is what the Alliance is complaining about. And the revisionists bishops (like Croft) don’t want to hear that. So they seek to minimise and dismiss our concerns.
Pete: this is a serious question. Do you think that you could formulate some way of expressing how the CofE more generally could treat LGBTI clergy more fairly that your more – how shall we say – prudish con evo colleagues would find acceptable? Do you advocate returning to ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ for example? Because the message your colleagues in ‘The Alliance’ give very clearly is that sex outside of heterosexual marriage must not be tolerated under any circumstances. And you know full well that is neither realistic or fair to LGBTI clergy. And I don’t for one moment… Read more »
This is a very interesting response to the Bishop of Oxford. He seems to me, however, to be making some rather eirenic points rather than being ‘the gaslighter in chief for the House of Bishops’. (A bit of an extreme and uncharitable statement, if I may say so.) Nowhere does he ask that anyone changes their view on the substantive issues involved, nor that anyone cease from expressing those views with courtesy and humility. But as he points out the language used by the Alliance of being given ‘no choice’ is very unhelpful and untrue. It suggests a victim position… Read more »
Dear Peter, Thanks for your response. Surely to disagree and put an alternative view is not gaslighting? You have disagreed with me but I don’t think you’re gaslighting me. Nor did I state that I agree with the House of Bishops’ position or with the proposals before Synod. I didn’t say that only one group is exercising power, the Bishops are clearly doing so as well and need to do so with humility. And it is a simple matter of fact that there are many different views on this subject among evangelicals, including those who disagree with SSM but do… Read more »
I think this conversation would be vastly improved if words like ‘gaslighting’, ‘revisionist’ and ‘orthodox’ were left out of it. They are obviously totally useless, because no one can agree on their proper use.
(Side note. I first saw Gas Light in a local AmDram production when I was a young boy. Many decades later, when I came across the term, I knew almost instinctively what it meant without anyone explaining the connection to the play.)
I get your point, but anecdotally the sense I get is that the Alliance exists more online than in the pews. Like I think I’ve run into maybe one or two people for whom same-sex relationships are the issue for them, and they’re a Baptist and a Roman. The Alliance seems like a group that’s got conservative organisations together and set up a website and has written lots of things for Synod, but I’d be genuinely interested to know the level of grassroots support that they have. Although, tbf, maybe this is a general issue with Synod: I don’t know… Read more »
The Alliance is not an online thing. I’ve met someone who I think is intended to be an overseer. She came to my church and was introduced as someone intended to provide pastoral support to our incumbent. I know four other churches in my London borough that I suspect are part of it, too. This is a real thing. I’m looking for guidance from my bishop. Otherwise, I’m going to proceed according to Canon A8.
It’s an example of hypocrisy. The way that one bishop (not Pete, but he put his name to it) organised a campaign to force Jeffrey John to stand down, was gross bullying. The way that ‘The Alliance’ and CEEC are organising schism is threatening and bullying. Steve Croft is naming it for what it is.
Peter I agree that plain speaking is good, and +Pete was known for it and well liked for it. But I don’t think The Alliance is at all where +Pete really stands. And I am surprised to see himself hitched to their three wheeled wagon.
An Evangelical Bishop complaining of being gaslit.
“Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person causes someone to question their sanity, memories, or perception of reality. People who experience gaslighting may feel confused, anxious, or unable to trust themselves.”
Welcome to my world Pete. Now you know how it has felt to be an LGBTQ Christian in the church for the past 1700 years.
Perhaps you could treat it as a learning opportunity.
Simon, I would just like to say that I’m absolutely in awe of the continuing commitment of so many faithful LGBTQI+ Christians in the Church of England, in the face of this constant institutional abuse. I’m not even personally involved in it (being Canadian, and happily resident in a fully affirming diocese). But even at this distance, I find the stress of this constant assault on the Christian integrity of my friends and their allies to be almost unbearable. And I have never experienced it from your point of view. My hat goes off to you. I think I would… Read more »
Tim, Thank you for your kind words, but for the record I left the church of England last year when I returned my lay ministers (readers) licence to my bishop, telling her that I could no longer serve, with integrity, in the church. What surprised me was that much of my local, rural, Wiltshire congregation understood and supported my move. I now have a feral, freelance ministry, teaching and preaching where invited, but a lot of that work is helping to lead our local LGBTQIA Christians support group, which, being ecumenical and therefore free of church internal politics, is an… Read more »
Anne Foreman
1 day ago
As a former member of General Synod I welcome +Stephen Croft’s wise and clear response to ‘The Alliance’. I hope it will inform the debate in York. As for the statement from +Pete – I suppose it has the merit of frankness but to echo a former General Synod debate..”I DISAGREE with +Pete…”
Anne Foreman
As he was the one who called for introducing the standalone PLF services under Canon B5 in November I am not surprised Steven Croft was the one to respond. He raised the stakes considerably. The Alliance has raised them even further, but surely in a way that Steven Croft saw coming. He is not short of vocal and well organised evangelicals in his diocese. Perhaps his response is in part an attempt to rein in the impact of his Nov 23 proposal.
I am following this thread with my head in my hands wondering where Anthony Trollope is when you need him. But it then occurred to me that there might be a marketing opportunity for the church to help make up for the wasted million spent on the Wilkinson and Jay reports…and which would appeal to the younger congregations we wish we had- a video game called ‘Gaslighting’ peopled by fictionalised teams from the Alliance, The Archbishops Council, the Secretariat – imagine something like the stalking between the Lost Boys and Indians and so on round the Never Never land in… Read more »
Peter
1 day ago
A rebuttal of the false of doctrine of unity espoused by Steven Croft can be found in the article linked below
Martin Davie may be an Anglican theologian, but he sure does not understand the BCP! His use of it to bolster his case does not work – for example the marriage service extract he quotes has in view the prohibited degrees of marriage not persons of the same gender getting married.
What a lame attempt to discredit Davie. The BCP was written a little while ago. It is hardly a compelling argument to point out the BCP does not reference same sex marriage
I am going to hazard a guess that Davie knows when the BCP was compiled. His argument does not depend on its direct reference to SSM
Davies quotes from Morning Prayer, the Litany, the Marriage Service and the Book of Homilies. He doesn’t claim that BCP refers to SSM, just that it takes repentance, sin and judgement seriously and sees matters of sexual conduct forbidden by scripture as “very serious.” I am genuinely confused about the point you are making. Is your argument that the authors of BCP would be supportive of same-sex marriage? Or that they would back PLF and find SSM a bit too much? Or just that they believed that sexual ethics are something of a triviality and they didn’t much care what… Read more »
I was responding to Peter’s comments to Charles – nothing more than that. Davie uses BCP as part of his argument. The answer to all your questions is ‘no’ and ‘of course not’. I wasn’t engaging with Davie or BCP at all at this point..
+Steven is right that many bishops and clergy have been happily ignoring the teaching and canons of the Church of England for many years and conservative evangelicals tended to keep quiet as long as they were left alone. But to use that as an argument in defending to openly carry on ignoring the teaching and canons is hardly a logical argument.
David Runcorn
14 hours ago
For me one of the most significant lines in +Steven’s response came early on. Commenting on The Alliance letter he wrote – ‘Your letter makes a series of charges … and I have no doubt has caused hurt to LGBTQIA+ Christians and their friends and family.’ Whenever I have debated this issue – and I was recently sharing a platform with a conservative speaker for just such a discussion – I try to be very careful to express respect for other viewpoints and show an understanding of what it means to those holding them. Real lives are involved and on all… Read more »
Graham Cotter
12 hours ago
Thank you for this website, and the varied contributions. Film Number 5 in the LLF materials is a wonderful narrative of transformative change. You see Graham and Sadie sailing in Bournemouth. This came from our parish of Buckland Monachorum, and describes the ministry of God Holy Spirit, turning around the human heart into conformity with the teaching of Jesus. This is in line with 1 Corinthians 6 v.11: ‘And such were some of you.’ Unfortunately this inspiring film was not included in Diocesan teaching days. Graham found the church to be a wonderfully merciful environment, as it should be, within… Read more »
A good piece from Canon John Holdsworth (Diocese of Cyprus & the Gulf) here: https://www.cypgulf.org/are-we-a-remnant/
“…whatever they make of marriage” is an assertion that nobody agrees with. How wide would you make that whatever?
Really excellent critique
Impressive. Excoriating. Wise. Challenging. I hope this contributes to the debate in Synod this weekend.
Well said that fellow!!
About time that someone gave a hard push back and responded line by line to their exaggerated claims and disproportionate responses.
So the Bishop of Oxford does not think that setting up a parallel province is proportionate given the limited scope of the proposals ie blessing of same sex marriage, but does think that same sex marriage would be a departure from essential doctrine. The fact is that anyone under the current proposal could get married in a registry office and turn up for a blessing of their marriage in church a few days later all the trimmings associated with it. My daughter and her now husband followed a similar process, but the bishop thinks they are not properly married in… Read more »
Adrian. The service of dedication after a civil marriage and the PLF do not look alike at all. The Preface for the former makes it very clear that the CofE considers it Holy Matrimony, the marriage vows are repeated, as are the declarations and the blessing of the rings and, although the nuptial blessing is not given, a choice of thanksgiving prayers is given, some of them very similar indeed. And it can be followed by the same nuptial mass / eucharist as any run of the mill church wedding. The PLF have none of those features. It does not… Read more »
Bishop Stephen draws a distinction between blessing of marriage and solemnization of marriage. This is a distinction that the C of E has held ever since we started allowing the blessing of marriage, but not the marriage service, for divorcees. So the distinction he is drawing is recognised as valid.
I don’t see where Bishop Stephen says he thinks that couples such as your daughter and her husband are not properly married in the eyes of the Church. They were not married in church, but that’s not the same as saying the Church says they’re not properly married.
In much of continental Europe you must get married in a civil ceremony before getting married in church. In the Greek island of Syros, which has a mixed Catholic and Orthodox population, it is quite usual to get married three times. One civil ceremony is followed by a Catholic and Orthodox ceremony. All three ceremonies often occur on the same day.
The bishop says: “I readily accept that a B2 process would be needed for the Church of England solemnising same sex marriage in Church. This would be a change of doctrine.” Yet Canon B2 says that services authorised by it must be such that in the opinion of the General Synod are neither contrary to, nor indicative of any departure from, the doctrine of the Church of England in any essential matter. The bishop seems to think that what he calls a B2 process could be used to change the doctrine of the Church. This is precisely what is expressly… Read more »
Croft has become the gaslighter in chief for the House of Bishops. We know what gaslighters do. They belittle – questioning the extent of the Alliance’s support (para 1). They withhold (“of course it’s not a change of doctrine”) (para 2). They trivialise (“You’re too sensitive and overreacting” (para 4). They divert (“You’re fracturing the body of Christ”) (para 5). They deny (“Your concerns aren’t real, and we can fix it through our pastoral reassurance – there, there”) Classic bullying tactics.
Pete: I worked with you for many years and I know you are a great deal better than this comment of yours. I know that you treated clergy in your episcopal area who were in same sex relationships a great deal better than this comment of yours implies. Many people – and I only speak for myself but I know of many others – found the bullying of Jeffrey John an intolerable and hypocritical line to cross. I know who started that particular line of bullying in the CofE and I know you do as well. It should never have… Read more »
Andrew,
It is a tonic – and should be a welcome voice on Thinking Anglicans – to have a Church of England Bishop (if now retired) such as Pete Broadbent speak in plain English.
He leaves you in no doubt what he thinks. What a difference it would make if his former episcopal colleagues would do the same from both sides of the argument.
I hope I did treat LGBTI clergy well. I hope I still do. This is about changing the doctrine, ethics and liturgy of the CofE. Which is what the Alliance is complaining about. And the revisionists bishops (like Croft) don’t want to hear that. So they seek to minimise and dismiss our concerns.
Pete: this is a serious question. Do you think that you could formulate some way of expressing how the CofE more generally could treat LGBTI clergy more fairly that your more – how shall we say – prudish con evo colleagues would find acceptable? Do you advocate returning to ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ for example? Because the message your colleagues in ‘The Alliance’ give very clearly is that sex outside of heterosexual marriage must not be tolerated under any circumstances. And you know full well that is neither realistic or fair to LGBTI clergy. And I don’t for one moment… Read more »
This is a very interesting response to the Bishop of Oxford. He seems to me, however, to be making some rather eirenic points rather than being ‘the gaslighter in chief for the House of Bishops’. (A bit of an extreme and uncharitable statement, if I may say so.) Nowhere does he ask that anyone changes their view on the substantive issues involved, nor that anyone cease from expressing those views with courtesy and humility. But as he points out the language used by the Alliance of being given ‘no choice’ is very unhelpful and untrue. It suggests a victim position… Read more »
Tim,
You exemplify why gaslighting is precisely the right term to use.
It is pure gaslighting to claim that the Alliance is the powerful party.
They are the very opposite of powerful. They cannot take a single decision to alter the stance of Croft and his fellow bishops
Bishops run the Church of England. Please stop gaslighting me by telling me otherwise
Dear Peter, Thanks for your response. Surely to disagree and put an alternative view is not gaslighting? You have disagreed with me but I don’t think you’re gaslighting me. Nor did I state that I agree with the House of Bishops’ position or with the proposals before Synod. I didn’t say that only one group is exercising power, the Bishops are clearly doing so as well and need to do so with humility. And it is a simple matter of fact that there are many different views on this subject among evangelicals, including those who disagree with SSM but do… Read more »
I think this conversation would be vastly improved if words like ‘gaslighting’, ‘revisionist’ and ‘orthodox’ were left out of it. They are obviously totally useless, because no one can agree on their proper use.
(Side note. I first saw Gas Light in a local AmDram production when I was a young boy. Many decades later, when I came across the term, I knew almost instinctively what it meant without anyone explaining the connection to the play.)
If I remember rightly Bishop Broadbent has been disciplined before for his intemperate remarks.
I get your point, but anecdotally the sense I get is that the Alliance exists more online than in the pews. Like I think I’ve run into maybe one or two people for whom same-sex relationships are the issue for them, and they’re a Baptist and a Roman. The Alliance seems like a group that’s got conservative organisations together and set up a website and has written lots of things for Synod, but I’d be genuinely interested to know the level of grassroots support that they have. Although, tbf, maybe this is a general issue with Synod: I don’t know… Read more »
The Alliance is not an online thing. I’ve met someone who I think is intended to be an overseer. She came to my church and was introduced as someone intended to provide pastoral support to our incumbent. I know four other churches in my London borough that I suspect are part of it, too. This is a real thing. I’m looking for guidance from my bishop. Otherwise, I’m going to proceed according to Canon A8.
Ouch, rather an unedifying sigh my dear Bishop, might I respectfully suggest you play the ball rather than the man?
So calling out bullying is “playing the ball rather than the man ?”
It’s an example of hypocrisy. The way that one bishop (not Pete, but he put his name to it) organised a campaign to force Jeffrey John to stand down, was gross bullying. The way that ‘The Alliance’ and CEEC are organising schism is threatening and bullying. Steve Croft is naming it for what it is.
Peter I agree that plain speaking is good, and +Pete was known for it and well liked for it. But I don’t think The Alliance is at all where +Pete really stands. And I am surprised to see himself hitched to their three wheeled wagon.
Is this what is known as irony?
An Evangelical Bishop complaining of being gaslit.
“Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse where a person causes someone to question their sanity, memories, or perception of reality. People who experience gaslighting may feel confused, anxious, or unable to trust themselves.”
Welcome to my world Pete. Now you know how it has felt to be an LGBTQ Christian in the church for the past 1700 years.
Perhaps you could treat it as a learning opportunity.
With best wishes.
(Source for quote – https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/gaslighting)
Simon, I would just like to say that I’m absolutely in awe of the continuing commitment of so many faithful LGBTQI+ Christians in the Church of England, in the face of this constant institutional abuse. I’m not even personally involved in it (being Canadian, and happily resident in a fully affirming diocese). But even at this distance, I find the stress of this constant assault on the Christian integrity of my friends and their allies to be almost unbearable. And I have never experienced it from your point of view. My hat goes off to you. I think I would… Read more »
Tim, Thank you for your kind words, but for the record I left the church of England last year when I returned my lay ministers (readers) licence to my bishop, telling her that I could no longer serve, with integrity, in the church. What surprised me was that much of my local, rural, Wiltshire congregation understood and supported my move. I now have a feral, freelance ministry, teaching and preaching where invited, but a lot of that work is helping to lead our local LGBTQIA Christians support group, which, being ecumenical and therefore free of church internal politics, is an… Read more »
As a former member of General Synod I welcome +Stephen Croft’s wise and clear response to ‘The Alliance’. I hope it will inform the debate in York. As for the statement from +Pete – I suppose it has the merit of frankness but to echo a former General Synod debate..”I DISAGREE with +Pete…”
Anne Foreman
I agree with Anne!
As he was the one who called for introducing the standalone PLF services under Canon B5 in November I am not surprised Steven Croft was the one to respond. He raised the stakes considerably. The Alliance has raised them even further, but surely in a way that Steven Croft saw coming. He is not short of vocal and well organised evangelicals in his diocese. Perhaps his response is in part an attempt to rein in the impact of his Nov 23 proposal.
I am following this thread with my head in my hands wondering where Anthony Trollope is when you need him. But it then occurred to me that there might be a marketing opportunity for the church to help make up for the wasted million spent on the Wilkinson and Jay reports…and which would appeal to the younger congregations we wish we had- a video game called ‘Gaslighting’ peopled by fictionalised teams from the Alliance, The Archbishops Council, the Secretariat – imagine something like the stalking between the Lost Boys and Indians and so on round the Never Never land in… Read more »
A rebuttal of the false of doctrine of unity espoused by Steven Croft can be found in the article linked below
https://mbarrattdavie.wordpress.com/2024/07/03/unity-and-truth-part-iii/
Martin Davie may be an Anglican theologian, but he sure does not understand the BCP! His use of it to bolster his case does not work – for example the marriage service extract he quotes has in view the prohibited degrees of marriage not persons of the same gender getting married.
Honestly Charles,
What a lame attempt to discredit Davie. The BCP was written a little while ago. It is hardly a compelling argument to point out the BCP does not reference same sex marriage
I am going to hazard a guess that Davie knows when the BCP was compiled. His argument does not depend on its direct reference to SSM
Peter – it is Davie who tries to use the BCP to bolster his argument against SSM. He clearly thinks his argument does depend on it.
Davies quotes from Morning Prayer, the Litany, the Marriage Service and the Book of Homilies. He doesn’t claim that BCP refers to SSM, just that it takes repentance, sin and judgement seriously and sees matters of sexual conduct forbidden by scripture as “very serious.” I am genuinely confused about the point you are making. Is your argument that the authors of BCP would be supportive of same-sex marriage? Or that they would back PLF and find SSM a bit too much? Or just that they believed that sexual ethics are something of a triviality and they didn’t much care what… Read more »
I was responding to Peter’s comments to Charles – nothing more than that. Davie uses BCP as part of his argument. The answer to all your questions is ‘no’ and ‘of course not’. I wasn’t engaging with Davie or BCP at all at this point..
A direct response to Steven Croft.
https://www.churchsociety.org/resource/responding-to-the-bishop-of-oxford/
Thanks. That is helpful
+Steven is right that many bishops and clergy have been happily ignoring the teaching and canons of the Church of England for many years and conservative evangelicals tended to keep quiet as long as they were left alone. But to use that as an argument in defending to openly carry on ignoring the teaching and canons is hardly a logical argument.
For me one of the most significant lines in +Steven’s response came early on. Commenting on The Alliance letter he wrote – ‘Your letter makes a series of charges … and I have no doubt has caused hurt to LGBTQIA+ Christians and their friends and family.’ Whenever I have debated this issue – and I was recently sharing a platform with a conservative speaker for just such a discussion – I try to be very careful to express respect for other viewpoints and show an understanding of what it means to those holding them. Real lives are involved and on all… Read more »
Thank you for this website, and the varied contributions. Film Number 5 in the LLF materials is a wonderful narrative of transformative change. You see Graham and Sadie sailing in Bournemouth. This came from our parish of Buckland Monachorum, and describes the ministry of God Holy Spirit, turning around the human heart into conformity with the teaching of Jesus. This is in line with 1 Corinthians 6 v.11: ‘And such were some of you.’ Unfortunately this inspiring film was not included in Diocesan teaching days. Graham found the church to be a wonderfully merciful environment, as it should be, within… Read more »