Indeed. With so many cathedrals come so many canons. In the united dioceses of Cashel, Ossory, Waterford, Lismore, Ferns and Leighlin (where I was for a time) – one bishop to serve them all but six deans and chapters – there were hardly any incumbents who were not canons, there being only 33 cures. The rector of Abbeyleix was a canon of five cathedrals, so I addressed him as “five canons” (after Paul Gascoigne’s friend Jimmy five bellies Gardner).
Bradford and Wakefield have always been parish churches, even since becoming cathedrals (1919 and 1888). Ripon was a parish and collegiate church, but lost the collegiate status upon its elevation in 1836 without necessarily losing its parochial status. It is now part of a benefice with 4 other units (not including Holy Trinity). With respect to Mr Bravery’s remarks, the union of sees in Ireland long ante-dated the Irish Church Act 1833 (the temporalities act), and it was a process that had been in train prior to the Reformation, owing chiefly to the poverty of most Irish sees. As to… Read more »
“One house would be reserved in any close so that each canon/prebend could take a turn in residence for a few weeks at a time, before returning to their respective parishes.” This is how it works at St Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, where the canon in residence is in residence in Dublin for a week at a time, then returning to the parish. Dublin duties involve (a) Sunday tasks of some description; (b) daily offices (even Matins is choral); (c) daily mass (not that it’s called that despite the lovely Comper frontals and Mervyn Stockwood’s eucharistic vestments): (d) shopping; (e) restaurants,… Read more »
Froghole opines: ‘I think the dean ought to have a parish close by as well’
Well, the next best thing is about to happen in Peterborough where the Dean’s wife is about to become interim vicar of the city centre church, St John’s.
Many thanks. I think St John’s has been annexed to a stall at the cathedral for most of the time for at least 45 years (and it was cited as an example of this on a thread several years ago). That is relatively unusual, however, and it has also been my experience that parishes close by cathedrals sometimes resent the manner in which the cathedral will cream off much of the local attendance, putting them into a vicious spiral, with the cathedrals seldom (if ever) doing anything for these parish churches in return.
Holy Trinity Coventry has a good relationship with the neighbouring Cathedral. They alternate the 8 AM Sunday Communion on a monthly basis. There is a joint service on Palm Sunday. Holy Trinity usually has a Midnight Communion on Christmas Eve ( cancelled this year owing to covid concerns) and the Cathedral does not.
St Michael le Belfry offers a very different style of worship to the neighbouring York Minster. I understand it holds its Carol service in the Minster.
I’m not up to date with St Michael le Belfrey, but when I was a curate there we did hold our Christmas carol services at the Minster, and packed it out. There was very little feeling of competition with the Minster because, as you say, their styles were so different. Archdeacon Emeritus Leslie Stanbridge even suggested I might visit in the Minster Close, as it was in our parish! I was also asked to preach at a Lenten service there.
I do know that nowadays the Minster and the Belfrey share one of their Readers.
Many thanks to you and Ms Fife for that. I attended a late afternoon service at Holy Trinity earlier this year. I have to say that I was a significant percentage of the congregation sitting in the nave. I wonder whether the dynamic between that parish church and that cathedral is somewhat different than elsewhere because the original St Michael’s was also parochial, and was also very much a ‘civic’ church, with guild chapels (Holy Trinity catered for the butchers and possibly the dyers, together the important guild of Corpus Christi, whilst St Michael’s catered to the cappers, drapers, dyers,… Read more »
Hello Froghole. ‘I note that St Michael’s have taken over St Cuthbert’s:’ it’s actually the other way round. David Watson was curate at St. Cuthbert’s, and when the congregation outgrew it he took on St. Michael’s as well. St. Cuthbert’s was retained as a base for staff – I had an office there, along with other staff – but remained consecrated. We had a weekly staff communion there, and it was also used for youth groups and other midweek meetings and events such as bring-and-share lunches. I’m not sure how it’s used now. The offices were built so that they… Read more »
Many thanks for that! That seems very like the Round Church (Holy Sepulchre) taking over St Andrew the Great at Cambridge, and using only the latter for services (the Round Church is now primarily a heritage site and place for study, without advertised services). There is a useful description of the site here: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/york/vol5/pp12-15, but I have never been inside, and it would be interesting to know how it has been reconfigured if I can ever get in and if there is ever any public worship there. It was also of some interest to me because of its association with… Read more »
The state of the West Yorkshire cathedrals was much debated at the time of the merger of the dioceses before reaching the present situation. If I recall correctly, the original proposal would have made Wakefield (as the ancient county town of the West Riding) the principal Cathedral, with full staff, and downgraded Bradford and Ripon (did it use the term “pro-Cathedral”? With I think a Provost and one canon each). But there was a protest from the civic authorities on both sides at losing a Cathedral – in Ripon because of all the history since St Wilfred, and Bradford as… Read more »
Fr Dean
2 years ago
I’m reminded of Mrs Thatcher’s comment “We are a grandmother”. The Comms team are obviously seduced by the hubris of their paymasters. Why not “Ali and I are delighted to be returning to Bradford …”?
God 'elp us all
2 years ago
Without wishing to spend time at this time to consulting them, I see there are five documents on the Dioceses Commission website relating to the Diocese of Leeds: https://www.churchofengland.org/about/leadership-and-governance/dioceses-commission. They relate to a period of at least ten years of detailed considerations related to the creation of the CofE Diocese of Leeds, including a ‘Lessons Learned Review’! I imagine that somewhere within those considerations, much time and thought will have been given to the number and role of Deans. IIRC one result of this rationalisation was an increase in the number of Bishops. I see that the Agenda for the… Read more »
Michael Mulhern
2 years ago
‘Rev Andy.’ The kids in comms strike again to inflict on us their illiteracy posing as informality with deference. What other organisation/institution would refer to someone in these circumstances in any other way than their first name?
Incidentally, the Metropolitan of Rupert’s Land, Gregory Kerr-Wilson, is universally known as Bishop Greg. And my new bishop, who has been on the job for a few months, is already known to everyone as ‘Bishop Steve’. We all knew him as Steve when he was a parish priest, and it would have seemed very pretentious if he’d suddenly insisted on us calling him ‘Bishop Stephen’ or ‘Bishop London’.
Congratulations to Andy, but I am wondering why one diocese needs three cathedrals. Shouldn’t two of them be converted back into parish churches?
Which two do you suggest? Are you volunteering to tell the Deans they are no longer Deans and the Residentiary Canons they are out of a job.
In Ireland several Dioceses merged in the 1830s. I understand the remaining Dioceses have very long names and more than one Cathedral.
Indeed. With so many cathedrals come so many canons. In the united dioceses of Cashel, Ossory, Waterford, Lismore, Ferns and Leighlin (where I was for a time) – one bishop to serve them all but six deans and chapters – there were hardly any incumbents who were not canons, there being only 33 cures. The rector of Abbeyleix was a canon of five cathedrals, so I addressed him as “five canons” (after Paul Gascoigne’s friend Jimmy five bellies Gardner).
I don’t think that they would be out of work for long as there are so many vacant posts in the north.
How would that affect the running costs?
Bradford and Wakefield have always been parish churches, even since becoming cathedrals (1919 and 1888). Ripon was a parish and collegiate church, but lost the collegiate status upon its elevation in 1836 without necessarily losing its parochial status. It is now part of a benefice with 4 other units (not including Holy Trinity). With respect to Mr Bravery’s remarks, the union of sees in Ireland long ante-dated the Irish Church Act 1833 (the temporalities act), and it was a process that had been in train prior to the Reformation, owing chiefly to the poverty of most Irish sees. As to… Read more »
“One house would be reserved in any close so that each canon/prebend could take a turn in residence for a few weeks at a time, before returning to their respective parishes.” This is how it works at St Patrick’s Cathedral, Dublin, where the canon in residence is in residence in Dublin for a week at a time, then returning to the parish. Dublin duties involve (a) Sunday tasks of some description; (b) daily offices (even Matins is choral); (c) daily mass (not that it’s called that despite the lovely Comper frontals and Mervyn Stockwood’s eucharistic vestments): (d) shopping; (e) restaurants,… Read more »
Froghole opines: ‘I think the dean ought to have a parish close by as well’
Well, the next best thing is about to happen in Peterborough where the Dean’s wife is about to become interim vicar of the city centre church, St John’s.
Many thanks. I think St John’s has been annexed to a stall at the cathedral for most of the time for at least 45 years (and it was cited as an example of this on a thread several years ago). That is relatively unusual, however, and it has also been my experience that parishes close by cathedrals sometimes resent the manner in which the cathedral will cream off much of the local attendance, putting them into a vicious spiral, with the cathedrals seldom (if ever) doing anything for these parish churches in return.
Holy Trinity Coventry has a good relationship with the neighbouring Cathedral. They alternate the 8 AM Sunday Communion on a monthly basis. There is a joint service on Palm Sunday. Holy Trinity usually has a Midnight Communion on Christmas Eve ( cancelled this year owing to covid concerns) and the Cathedral does not.
St Michael le Belfry offers a very different style of worship to the neighbouring York Minster. I understand it holds its Carol service in the Minster.
I’m not up to date with St Michael le Belfrey, but when I was a curate there we did hold our Christmas carol services at the Minster, and packed it out. There was very little feeling of competition with the Minster because, as you say, their styles were so different. Archdeacon Emeritus Leslie Stanbridge even suggested I might visit in the Minster Close, as it was in our parish! I was also asked to preach at a Lenten service there.
I do know that nowadays the Minster and the Belfrey share one of their Readers.
Many thanks to you and Ms Fife for that. I attended a late afternoon service at Holy Trinity earlier this year. I have to say that I was a significant percentage of the congregation sitting in the nave. I wonder whether the dynamic between that parish church and that cathedral is somewhat different than elsewhere because the original St Michael’s was also parochial, and was also very much a ‘civic’ church, with guild chapels (Holy Trinity catered for the butchers and possibly the dyers, together the important guild of Corpus Christi, whilst St Michael’s catered to the cappers, drapers, dyers,… Read more »
Hello Froghole. ‘I note that St Michael’s have taken over St Cuthbert’s:’ it’s actually the other way round. David Watson was curate at St. Cuthbert’s, and when the congregation outgrew it he took on St. Michael’s as well. St. Cuthbert’s was retained as a base for staff – I had an office there, along with other staff – but remained consecrated. We had a weekly staff communion there, and it was also used for youth groups and other midweek meetings and events such as bring-and-share lunches. I’m not sure how it’s used now. The offices were built so that they… Read more »
Many thanks for that! That seems very like the Round Church (Holy Sepulchre) taking over St Andrew the Great at Cambridge, and using only the latter for services (the Round Church is now primarily a heritage site and place for study, without advertised services). There is a useful description of the site here: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/york/vol5/pp12-15, but I have never been inside, and it would be interesting to know how it has been reconfigured if I can ever get in and if there is ever any public worship there. It was also of some interest to me because of its association with… Read more »
The state of the West Yorkshire cathedrals was much debated at the time of the merger of the dioceses before reaching the present situation. If I recall correctly, the original proposal would have made Wakefield (as the ancient county town of the West Riding) the principal Cathedral, with full staff, and downgraded Bradford and Ripon (did it use the term “pro-Cathedral”? With I think a Provost and one canon each). But there was a protest from the civic authorities on both sides at losing a Cathedral – in Ripon because of all the history since St Wilfred, and Bradford as… Read more »
I’m reminded of Mrs Thatcher’s comment “We are a grandmother”. The Comms team are obviously seduced by the hubris of their paymasters. Why not “Ali and I are delighted to be returning to Bradford …”?
Without wishing to spend time at this time to consulting them, I see there are five documents on the Dioceses Commission website relating to the Diocese of Leeds: https://www.churchofengland.org/about/leadership-and-governance/dioceses-commission. They relate to a period of at least ten years of detailed considerations related to the creation of the CofE Diocese of Leeds, including a ‘Lessons Learned Review’! I imagine that somewhere within those considerations, much time and thought will have been given to the number and role of Deans. IIRC one result of this rationalisation was an increase in the number of Bishops. I see that the Agenda for the… Read more »
‘Rev Andy.’ The kids in comms strike again to inflict on us their illiteracy posing as informality with deference. What other organisation/institution would refer to someone in these circumstances in any other way than their first name?
‘President Jimmy Carter’? ‘President Joe Biden’?
Incidentally, the Metropolitan of Rupert’s Land, Gregory Kerr-Wilson, is universally known as Bishop Greg. And my new bishop, who has been on the job for a few months, is already known to everyone as ‘Bishop Steve’. We all knew him as Steve when he was a parish priest, and it would have seemed very pretentious if he’d suddenly insisted on us calling him ‘Bishop Stephen’ or ‘Bishop London’.
Jeez. It’s all becoming very informal.
It’s been informal since at least the 1970s and probably before that. Jimmy Carter became president of the US in 1976.
Agreed.
The informality doesn’t worry me at all – certainly better than clericalism, deference, and pomposity.
I’m more bothered about using ‘Rev.’ without the definite article, but I have to accept that what is accepted as correct usage changes over time.