Updated Wednesday 5 October
Our most recent report on this was published on 2 September: Living in Love and Faith – Listening.
The Campaign for Equal Marriage in the Church of England has recently posted these articles:
Helen King has posted these items at Shared Conversations:
Colin Coward has posted at Unadulterated Love:
The Church Times reports: Bishops say meetings with LGBTQ reps at Lambeth Palace were fruitful
I will add links to any further relevant articles that are published.
The LLF Roadmap currently (updated 5 October) says [plus exact dates as reported to TA]:
| Sep-Oct | Next Steps Group | Members of the Next Steps Group of bishops are holding meetings with representatives of 21 organisations and networks representing a wide possible range of views relating to identity, sexuality, relationships and marriage. The organisations are listed below. * |
| Sep | College of Bishops | This meeting, which was to initiate the bishops’ process of discernment and decision-making, was cancelled because of the death of Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II. Instead bishops are doing some reflective work individually ahead of the meeting in October. |
| Oct | College of Bishops | Bishops will gather for two days to begin the discernment process, including considering proposals for a way forward, the implications for formal decision-making, and how this will be communicated to members of General Synod and the wider Church. [31 October – 2 November] |
| Dec | College & House of Bishops | Bishops will gather for two days to finalise proposals and reflect on what is needed to support the decision-making processes in General Synod. [12 -14 December] |
| Jan 23 | College of Bishops | Bishops will finalise proposals to bring to Synod in February. [17 January] |
*The list of organisations and networks is:
| The Society | Mosaic | Affirming Catholics |
| Society of the Holy Cross | Church Missionary Society | CEEC |
| New Wine | USPG | The Church Society |
| HTB Network | Changing Attitude (England) | Living Out |
| One Body One Faith | Campaign for Equal Marriage | Evangelical Group of GS |
| Diverse Church | Ozanne Foundation | The Junia Network |
| GS Human Sexuality Group | Society of Catholic Priests | Inclusive Church |
“Coming away from last Friday’s meetings, I feel that it’s the ‘both … and’ for which we need to make space: not ‘either … or’. ”
Thank you, Helen.
This.
Amongst those who are seeking radical changes through and within LLF, there are two very different observable groups. There are those who want to say that there is a new and radical way to understand humanity and marriage and we all need to be open to it and embrace it. There is another observable group who want to say the orthodox (historic) view is itself morally wrong and therefore needs to be treated as such and urgently abandoned as ethically indefensible. These are two fundamentally distinct perspectives, though of course both claim the necessity for radical and urgent change. Conservative… Read more »
It’s remarkable how the pendulum swings. I remember when the mere presence in a group, such as a church congregation, of people with a more positive attitude towards same-sex attraction, was regarded by some parties as actively harmful to the other members of the group. Nowadays the mere presence in a group, such as a church congregation, of people with a less positive attitude towards same-sex attraction, is regarded by some parties as actively harmful to the other members of the group. In each case the parties concerned were adamant that they held the moral high ground, and in each… Read more »
There is a notion introduced by a comment on this thread that orthodox christianity belongs in the same category as climate change denial, which illustrates the enormity of the problem we all face..
There are, of course, reasonable people on both sides of the divide, as is the case on this thread.
There are also a set of beliefs that are completely delusional (such as conservative evangelicals can and should be shunned as if they were climate change deniers).
Time is now so short and the risk of a disorderly outcome to LLF is really starting to increase.
We most certainly should take the positions of both groups seriously. I’d go further and say that both groups should be protected and have the right to practice their beliefs within the ongoing Church of England. I believe we should not assume that the most radical voices at either end of the spectrum represent the views of most, in the middle, who want an end to this rancour, and the chance to get on with all the other huge pastoral demands that the Church faces in our communities. As you know, Peter, I object to people wanting to hound conservative… Read more »
Susannah, Whilst I appreciate the integrity of your oft stated position, could I please offer two corrections for you to reflect on. Firstly, you said “I believe at a fairly literal level, that there is a very strong and coherent basis for the conviction and faith that the Bible is NOT okay with man-man sex”. This is quite a common and understandable view, but recent research is challenging this viewpoint. I would argue that a more nuanced view is more accurate. Which is that the original Bible, in Hebrew, has a much more balanced position in relation to sex. Whilst… Read more »
So much to unpack here. Just as an aside, if you think “the original Bible” was entirely written in Hebrew, then you’re ignoring the New Testament for some reason — you know, the bit about Christ. Seems odd in these columns. Anyway, let’s look at the Old Testament first. It contains explicit laws, and it describes historical events. However much the historical events are to be considered praiseworthy, and clearly many of them are not, it seems agreed that the sections that are explicitly considered prescriptive do indeed legislate against male-male sexual acts as Susannah says, and as has been… Read more »
Thanks for your feedback. I agree with you about how scholarship works. That’s why in my post above I prefaced my hypothesis with “I would argue that”, thus owning my comments and suggesting that I am open to alternative suggestions within proper debate. Secondly, if you read through my posts on this subject I repeatedly cite and quote academic research from biblical scholars. In a recent post on this Hebrew translation issue I cited Theodore Jennings (Late Professor of Biblical and Constructive theology at Chicago Theological Seminary, writing in The Oxford Handbook of Theology, Sexuality and Gender, 2015), and a… Read more »
Thanks Simon, I share your longing for LGBT+ people to be affirmed and blessed in the Church of England, but I do not believe in holding out (for another 50 years?) for an ‘absolutist’ resolution, and until then endure the stand-off of the last 50 years, which has imposed a Church-wide ban on gay blessings, because the Church is at a stand-off where doctrine change is blocked. To expect the Church of England to accept a ban on conservative teaching on sex, in the Church, is politically unreal and a non-starter. It just can’t be achieved in a Church that… Read more »
Susannah, Thanks for your thoughtful response. I know I am on the losing side of the argument here, and that the church is heading towards some form of negotiated settlement, but I believe that to be a mistake. It will lock-in prejudice for decades to come, to the great damage of the church and many of her members. A few centuries ago we had a similar debate about slavery The biblical evidence in favour of slavery was much stronger than any biblical evidence around LGBTQ issues. Many prominent Christians defended slavery on scriptural terms. Would we have been right then… Read more »
I fear that CoE will come to a decision like Women’s Ordination and Women Bishops, where some women and girls in some dioceses still have to live with the official position that they are inferior in the eyes of God, in conflict with their calling.
Given that full inclusion is a mental health issue for LGBTQ+ people, allowing part of the church to proclaim the bad news that LGBTQ+ people are “disordered” and forbidden the sacraments will not stem the tide of mental and spiritual suffering.
Thank you, Simon. It is well worth knowing that many in the Jewish tradition do not come to the same homophobic conclusions that so many Christians have. Centuries of wisdom in the Mishnah and continuing Jewish engagement view what we call the OT differently than fundamentalist Christians. Today’s scholarship on the NT is certainly superior to that of decades ago because scholars know more about the culture and have more sources to do linguistic analysis. It’s also worth noting that even a few decades ago, marriage was a dicey institution where women lost agency and identity upon saying “I do.”… Read more »
Susannah, your grace and generosity of spirit is the only reason I continue to engage with Thinking Anglicans.
I am afraid I cannot be confident my respect for you will allow me to remain within the current structure of the Church of England.
i am certain that whatever the future holds the generosity of spirit which you exemplify will need to be the the guiding principle on both sides of the divide.
Peter
Thank you Peter. From a pastoral point of view, what I hope for most for you is happiness and devotion in a journey with God. I feel sure you know about the cost and sacrifice of that devotion. And yet devotion – givenness of ourselves to God – is a deeply precious covenant, holding us in the givenness and devotion of God, first of all, to us: in the outpouring of life blood, to the point of no turning back. That’s how wholly God is dedicated to the covenant with us. So I do pray blessings. The heart of my… Read more »
Once again you are prioritising beliefs over everything else when our number one priority needs to be preventing more tragic cases like Lizzie Lowe. Her parish church has reformed. Yet, nationally the problem persists. As part of the LLF process, several bishops and other members of the church produced the CEEC video A Beautiful Story. Parishes were encouraged to watch it. Had I seen that video as a teenager, I would have committed suicide. That’s the priority. I complained as high as one of the archbishops about the video but nobody was willing to see it as a safeguarding issue.… Read more »
Not quite, I regret to say. We have a direct mandate that for each of us our “number one priority” is Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Our second is certainly to love our neighbour as ourself — and every time a tragic event such as the suicide of a teenage girl happens we need to ask ourselves whether we have been derelict in that. In this case, it seems, from what little I can read, that the girl in question was afraid that as a lesbian… Read more »
The case of Lizzie Lowe was heart-breaking. I’m pretty clear that she just could not reconcile her sexuality (aka who she was) with what she understood to be her obligation to God to see that sexuality as a serious sin. I suspect she could not reconcile those two factors, and for a young teen, just emerging into the full flourishing of who she is becoming, I can understand what a torment that could have been. I’d just like to pay tribute to her parents and those in her church who, as a result of this human tragedy, reviewed the assumptions… Read more »
to see that sexuality as a serious sin That’s precisely my point. Seeing certain forms of sexuality (as opposed to certain sexual acts) as a sin is characteristic of an extreme position. Seeing it as an unforgivable sin is even more an extreme minority position (and one which seems to me quite unchristian). The traditional view is that we are all subject to various temptations and are accountable not for those temptations, which are inherent in our fallen condition, but in how we respond to them. The extreme view, that being tempted is in itself an irredeemable sin, is promoted… Read more »
U.N., I’m not sure that a distressed teenager is going to make a distinction between ‘who they are’ (their sexuality) and ‘what they do’ (their sexual actions – or arguably their sexual fantasies). The message they may well pick up from their interface with the Church is: ‘I am attracted to other girls, and I get the impression that’s something wrong with me.’ That can then, very understandably, lead to repression of ‘who you are’ (even if you’re not doing anything). I know, because been there, done that. The crisis for a young teen may not be ‘Am I disgusting… Read more »
Which is why they need careful guidance to help them unpack these emotionally fraught issues — and why people who persist in conflating those issues for rhetorical effect aren’t helping vulnerable adolescents.
No teenager or adult LGBTQ+ person can be counseled into separating their identity from their longing to love. This is why conversion therapy is outlawed in many places, the effort to separate these two things is psychological and spiritual violence. I wish there was a kinder way to say it, but there isn’t. There is nothing extreme about the theology of full loving affirmation and acceptance, it is completely in line with good mental health, as now recognized by the profession of psychology. The only “cure” for LGBTQ+ teens is what Susannah said: “For a teen to flourish, it greatly… Read more »
Young people are at an important stage in forming their own identities and sense of self and self-worth, and therefore, as I said, any advice has to be given sensitively. But it is nonsense to say that it is “spiritual violence” to separate out the ideas of sexual attraction and sexual activity in order to think and talk about them separately. If it helps a young person to understand themself better, then it’s helpful, and if it doesn’t, it isn’t — it’s only possible to talk in these columns about general principles, since individual cases vary. Clearly sex and sexuality… Read more »
I haven’t seen the movie or heard this particular story. I know plenty of wonderful accepting families whose teenagers committed or attempted suicide because of the church and societal stigma against LGBTQ+ people. “Conservative” teaching is toxic. Teens are really susceptible to the awful outside messages and bullying, even in families that love and accept their children. The great discernment question is “what are the fruits” of a particular labor? If a teaching leads to suicide and ill health and emboldens bullies, what does it say about the fruit of that labor? I know that conservatives are shocked to have… Read more »
First of all “same-sex attraction” is an awful way to speak of LGBTQ+ people. Just awful. It automatically pathologies us which gives the impression of illness, disease, etc. Does the LGBTQ+ community in CoE accept that terminology? It’s like the unfortunate trend in some circles to call women “people with uteri” to refer to cis-gendered women or non-trans women. It objectifies people. Perhaps we should start referring to straight people as those with “opposite-sex attraction.” Second, mental illness and suicide in LGBTQ+ people are the results of stigmatization. Withhold the sacraments of the church to LGBTQ+ people is automatically stigmatizing.… Read more »