Kelvin Holdsworth What’s in Kelvin’s Head Divine Dating – the Mysterious Art of Finding A New Cleric
Martine Oborne Women and the Church Are women safe in the Church of England?
Andrew Brown The slow deep hover A quick note on jargon
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love
Re. Colin’s words. ‘It’s alright in the parishes’ ‘i have done no wrong’. These phrases emphasise how far parts of the church have deviated from the teaching of the bible. In contrast: ‘we have all sinned, we have all fallen from the grace of God’ ‘I, Paul, the greatest of sinners’. Repentance, and an awareness of the awesomeness of God and God’s kingdom, and a preaching of original sin, is a necessary starting point. I have been reading a blog on travails within evangelical traditions, and one point well made is that ‘feel good’ charismatic evangelicism has moved away from… Read more »
Jesus, friend of sinners, is the starting point. It is relational rather than confessional. That’s the meaning of the prodigal son, a point missed by the elder brother (conservative evangelicals). Conservative evangelicals love Billy Graham and John Stott, Charismatic evangelicals love building new worshipping communities and have a blast doing it. A few fatted cows might be slaughtered in the process, but when mercy triumphs over judgement everyone is welcomed to the party!
I don;t know which conservative evangelicals you have heard, but in my day when i attended a conservative evangelical church and other teachings, their position was 180 degrees different to what you suggest. I remember one sermon (it may have been by Jonathan Fletcher, which is another story) went on for about 5 minutes on the one phrase ‘while he was yet far off’. The elder brother was hardly mentioned. What are you trying to say? What exactly is wrong with John Stott? Stott and Billy Graham by no means had the same theological understanding. Jesus friend of sinners, yes,… Read more »
I have heard John Stott and Billy Graham and many other great conservative evangelical preachers besides and many will owe them a great deal. But having been involved in many forms of evangelism, including Billy Graham crusades, I can honestly say that church planting is by far the most fun and I think most effective form of evangelism, and also the New Testament model of evangelism. Everyone gets to play, not just a few superstars. The church in Rome for example was not founded by any of the apostles, just a group of regular people who Paul lists in his… Read more »
I would not disagree at all. But would not conservative evangelicals also agree with you? I have heard them preach that it is important to reach out on a personal level, it is not all about big jamborees,
That is true, Go Into All The World and Preach The Gospel etc.,. The problem is when you have filled your stadium/church to capacity there will always be people who won’t be able to get in. What do you do then? Just the internal logic of Jesus command suggests we need to keep building churches until all the UK/World has been evangelised. I have not heard a conservative evangelical talk about church planting – fresh expressions yes – but these communities have a high attrition rate, Clearly they did so in the last, up until the 1960’s, but they have… Read more »
I know it is not church planting, but the Round church moved to a bigger place, St Andrews I think.
Which rather proves my point. And the woman caught in the act in adultery? You couldn’t ask for a clearer picture of mercy triumphing over judgement. Without mercy, people get hurt.
I’m afraid I have rather lost what your point is. Maybe you have a back story which explains some of your views? Woman caught in adultery? I thought Jesus said ‘go sin no more’. You will also see from my other comments that I am very far from a conservative evangelical at this point in my life. A conservative evangelical might point you to the book of Romans, and discuss what it means to live under the law v. living under grace. It isn’t mercy v. judgement, it is law v. grace (but it isn’t quite so simple, if you… Read more »
I appreciate your comments, Nigel – and have comments to make in response. You say “it depends how far parts of the church have deviated from the teaching of the bible.” We Christians are dramatically divided on what we think the bible teaches. Let me cut to the chase – in the end I think what we ultimately believe depends on what we’ve learnt and internalised and what the bible teaches is the version we have learnt. Having said that, I think there are basics, but the basics I am drawn to are not what is being taught with clarity… Read more »
Thankyou for making those points – about “what the Bible teaches” and “original sin”. There is some abusive theology about….
The letter from the Bishop of Warrington says that God’s will will prevail. That providential view bothers me a lot. Does she think it has prevailed up to now? Has it prevailed in Palestine?
Warning – long. Short version – say sorry, confess you could have done better. Thanks for both your thoughtful reponses. I should maybe clarify, lest I am saddled with views i do not hold! I am,nowadays, what might be called a ‘cultural’ Christian. I am influenced in many directions, from early days attending an anglo catholic church, to a few years attending a conservative evanngelical church.At one time for a few years I was organist at what might be called a liberal church. I am equally influenced by the works of Dostoevsky (my favourite is ‘the idiot’ – what a… Read more »
i hope I have clarified that in my response to Colin. I was maybe referring to a prevailing message within much of the bible, not to any particular literal interpretation. Surely no Christian, or indeed person, should ever say ‘I have done no wrong’. It is a ridiculous assertion. Yet heard all the time. But it should never be heard from the lips of ordained ministers, let alone bishops. What he maybe meant was ‘I have been investigated and it was determined I broke no law’ which is entirely different. I agree entirely regarding ‘God’s will will prevai’. That is… Read more »
The Church of England will not be a safe place until women priests and bishops feel safe, welcome and valued. This is a issue for us all.
What is scary – and part of the problem – is that a large section of the Church of England can’t see that othering women and LGBTQIA Christians is a fundamental impediment to a safe Church of England.
Further to Martine Oborne’s item, I think female clergy are often much more vulnerable than many people in the pews imagine. The apparent treatment of Bev Mason is frightening, and has just guaranteed that dozens of female clergy will now not come forward to report harassment by Diocesan Bishops or others. However I assume that her reported treatment by ABY is at least in part a warning to others (pour ‘encourager les autres’) to ensure that anyone who threatens to report anyone from the ‘old boys network’ realises just what it will cost them. It does seem incredible that ABY… Read more »
With the CofE in the middle of an existential crisis panic has clearly set in. Just how long did the Archbishop anticipate the Bishop of Warrington being on study leave for? This dismal situation speaks to the entropy in the CofE. As the Supreme Governor of the CofE His Majesty should perhaps summon the senior bishops and be quite blunt with them about this dire situation. The bishops’ confetti apologies are not cutting through anymore, we’re fed up with their mealy mouthed platitudes. Parliamentarians too are openly scornful of the Church’s failings.
I strongly disagree. I look to the Diocese of Monmouth as an example of how the Church of England should be and I believe one of the main reason for this is that the Church in Wales is disestablished. The Church in Wales manages very well without a General Secretary who is a former Royal Courtier with close links to the security services. It is inconceivable that the Church in Wales would think it was a good idea to appoint a former head of MI5 to chair the committee to appoint their next Archbishop of Canterbury. A vibrant and biblically… Read more »
I think it was a good idea to appoint the former Head of M15 to chair the CNC for Canterbury. He is a distinguished public servant with very wide experience.
I hear what you’re saying, David, but I disagree. Much of the culture of Monmouth as it now is rests on having an exceptional leader as its Bishop, and having made good appointments to her senior team. She hasn’t always been an exceptional leader. Like many of us, she made more than a few mistakes along the way. But she learned and she grew, and Monmouth is all the better for it. As a Diocese, Monmouth had a lot of troubles over recent years before her arrival. Similarly, Bangor has been a very troubled Diocese for quite a few years,… Read more »
It is logically possible to reject the divine right of kings, while recognising the current constitutional position of King Charles.
I doubt the people of England want a theocracy in which bishops bear rule by their means, even in principle, but surely less than ever now, given the current crop of bishops.
Isaiah said kings shall be thy nursing fathers and there is nobody else with the clout to bring the bishops to order.
Has anyone made a serious claim to the divine right of kings since the death of Richard II in 1399, and certainly since the Bill / Claim of Rights 1689?
Has anyone made a serious claim to the divine right of kings since the death of Richard II in 1399
Explicitly both James I and Charles I, and by his actions Henry VIII
Charles Edward Stuart, the young pretender, I think.
I see no evidence that any monarch after 1649 believed in a divine right to rule. They accepted (willingly or unwillingly) that they ruled by and with the consent of Parliament.
The Young Pretender presumably believed in succession by direct line of descent, allied to military power.
There may be a case for asserting that some of the later Stuarts, notably James VII & II, adhered to it (see, for example, the discussion by John Neville Figgis, CR in his celebrated ‘The Divine Right of Kings’ (1893, 1914)), and it is noteworthy that the publication of Sir Robert Filmer’s ‘Patriarcha’ (1680, though written in the 1620s) gained sufficient approbation and attention that John Locke felt constrained to crush it with his ‘Two Treaties of Government’ (1689), the first treatise being specifically intended to refute Filmer. Figgis noted that the doctrine of ‘passive obedience’, which gained such currency… Read more »
I should add in haste that Francis Procter’s 1855 history of the BCP (revised after 1900 by Bishop W. H. Frere) notes that the earliest form of the healing service for scrofula was from the reign of Henry VII, and that subsequent forms of the service, though ‘never sanctioned by the Church…[were] printed in some Prayer Books between the reign of Charles I and the year 1719’. The form dating from the time of Anne was as follows: ‘”Prevent us, O Lord, &c.” The Gospel (for Ascension-day) S. Mark xvi. 14-20. “Let us pray. Lord have mercy upon us, &c.… Read more »
Doubt that cynical Charles II really believed in the ‘royal touch’, but he would have been happy to employ any device to cement his position.
One of my Oxford history tutors was fervent supporter of the Stuarts up to & including Henry IX. Diverting him onto the subject of Stuart line of succession was irresistible in his otherwise very tedious tutorials.
You may well be right, but why would a person who did not believe in it go to the sheer effort of touching more than 90,000 people suffering from the ‘king’s evil’ over the course of his reign, as he did? That was more than 3,500 p/a over a 25 year reign, considerably more people than those touched by any other monarch, as far as we know. It entailed stroking the diseased flesh. There would presumably have been simpler and less distressing ways of bolstering his political position. I should add that the Procter/Frere history of the BCP notes (at… Read more »
Interesting. What other state rites were published until 1859. I am aware that special observances for Nov 5 (foiling of gunpowder plot and landing of King William III), Jan 31 (martyrdom of Charles I) and May 29 (Restoration) were included, but these were to be said in every parish in the land so not in the same category as royal touching. The special prayers for September 8th are, I think, still in the BCP marking the start of Charles III reign rather than the simultaneous death of his mother.)
The commemoration of Charles I was, of course, on 30 January.
I don’t disagree about the mess – how could one? But some comments seem to be assuming that the Bishop of Warrington was somehow rusticated, “sent” on study leave. Do we know that? Are some people hinting at insider information to which they are privy? Or just more speculation? Perhaps she felt hurt and confused and “withdrawing from the situation” felt right for her. And perhaps the Church made this possible for her? Clearly there have been many people “in the know” all this time, but feeling it is somehow incumbent on them to keep schtum, under the guise of… Read more »
It can be extremely difficult to deal with people who do not feel able at present to fulfill their roles, as I am sure you know from your union work.
At one extreme you sack them, although it can be difficult to sack a bishop. At the other extreme you allow them unlimited sabbatical.
There has to be some realpolitik even in the CofE. Eighteen months is a long time for a dioceses to be without a presumably much needed suffragan. It’s difficult to see how this sabbatical could have gone on for much longer without an intervention from the diocesan synod and the DBF. I hesitate to mention the vulgar business of money but that is an awful long time to be paying a stipend and all the associated costs for. Had C4 not broken the news, something else would presumably have had to bring this standoff to an end.
Although the stipends and other expenses of suffragan bishops (like those of diocesan bishops) are paid by the Church Commissioners out of their own funds, not by the diocesan Board of Finance.
Is there such a thing as a ‘much needed suffragan’? The general opinion on TA seems to be that there are far too many bishops in the Cof E. Too many dioceses as well.
I think it’s fair to say that there are much needed suffragans in the Dioceses of Canterbury, Durham, Ely, Carlisle, Worcester, and elsewhere at the moment (I haven’t check the current vacancy list). Most dioceses do need the services of a second bishop, and when there isn’t a bishop at all, the lack of a second bishop who knows the diocese well, and can be a source of continuity through a diocesan vacancy, is very obvious.
The Church in Wales copes without ‘much needed suffragans’. When there is a vacancy of see, there are retired bishops or bishops of neighbouring sees to take care of confirmations and ordinations.
Tossing my tuppence worth in, all I know of the Liverpool business is what I’ve seen in the headlines. However I’ve been aware for a long time of a growing divide between the culture of charismatic churches and the world around us, the one in which I have to work and live, which may be relevant. In such church circles the culture of hugging and physical contact has been prevalent for a good many years, and if you’re not too happy with it it, it can mark you out as being ‘different’ – full of unconfessed pride, I was told… Read more »
Good comments. Nobody touches me unless they want a fist in their face, apart from my wife or children.
‘switching a particular behaviour style on or off as you go through the church door’
Authenticity can be difficult. I find the stress of putting on a happy face as i go through the church door difficult.
It is a bit similar to the work behaviour v. home behaviour v. behaviour with close friends. They can be very different. For good reasons..
John and Nigel – Nigel first. I thought wow! as I read your second sentence, “nobody touches me unless they want a first in their face”. This is an extraordinary violent, aggressive reaction to being touched. You also both refer to the question of how we are feeling inside and our projection onto others, that going into church and wherever, we have to switch a particular style on or off, putting on a happy face because that’s expected. John, you note that the normative culture of charismatic churches is of hugging and physical contact and may be a significant marker… Read more »
Colin, i was of course using hyperbole, I have never punched anybody in my life! I am a very gentle peace loving person. However – i do remember when 13 at school, a boy was teasing me and touching me aggressively, and I put my boot in. He writhed on the floor. At that point a prefect came in, and wondered what was going on. The prefect ended up being a bishop somewhere. I guess in earlier days I would have had a severe beating. James Newcome was the prefect. Good sound man. In contrast, at prep school when about… Read more »
Oh, dear, Nigel. I’m afraid TA – and other chat sites, I suspect, are not the best places for tongue in cheek remarks. Its too easy to be taken literally when the readers can’t see your face. I know – I’ve been caught doing that occasionally on here – and have the sort of humorous fun that will say totally outrageous things with a deadly serious tone or expression. How many young colleagues have I caught out by saying that broken biscuits have no calories because they leak? I have to be careful – talking at church to an engineering… Read more »
Yes, I always try to add a little humour into what can become (for good reasons) rather ponderous and grave discussions.
Laugh at the devil.
I would add that there’s a world of difference between a clumsy hug and a creepy hug. I personally never mind the former though I might avoid it being repeated. On the rare occasion I’ve experienced the latter I’ve made it clear (without fisticuffs) that it was unwelcome and must never be attempted again. I fully appreciate that a woman may experience these phenomena differently. As a gay man I often kiss my closest gay friends on the lips when I meet them or say goodbye – primarily as a mark of deep affection but also as a ‘&@%# you’… Read more »
Creepy indeed! Potentially also a safeguarding issue. It’s not something people normally do.
Footballers seem to embrace lots of embraces! But they don’t usually kiss. Rugby players are embracing the whole game!
But they have all signed a statement saying that they grant permission to their manager and fellow team mates.
Spanish women football players, not so much for the kissing by the manager.
Thank you Colin. It is a very difficult subject and not an easy one to talk about (personally speaking.) Massage I’ll leave well alone, holistic spirituality? Well, I’ve been trying to develop a genuinely holistic view of faith and life for a good many decades, so we’re still travelling in the same direction!
I would have thought the Covid pandemic had (and still does) restrict the more “touchy-feely” parts of the charismatic experience. (Or is it that these folk think their cultural bubble is immune?)
They tend to be younger (under 60) and therefore not so greatly impacted by COVID.
You have to move in the right circles, Pat. And I don’t mean those which centred on Barnards Castle or a particular street in London. I know several churches where it still happens – and indeed one house fellowship whose leader told me that, at the start of lockdown, the Holy Spirit told them to defy bureaucracy and fear, so they carried on meeting!
It’s always handy when the Holy Spirit agrees with you, isn’t it.
Just listened to a beautiful and thoughtful sermon/meditation by Rowan Williams last Sunday at the memorial service for Robert Willis, former Dean of Canterbury. Restores hope in the life of the church and it’s a reminder of what we’re about, or at least, should be about. It’s at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nflqTDufu0
Thank you for highlighting this. As you said, a beautiful and thoughtful contribution about a former Dean of Canterbury, plus some apposite remarks for ministry and leadership today.
Yes, it’s a good antidote to the anxiety that seems to have shaped the Church’s approach to ministry in recent years and the many new initiatives that have purported to be the effective. And Rowan holds open a different way to offer the presence of God to people, one in which we try not to get in the way.