Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Being a “Nice” Priest or a “Nice” Church
Stephen Parsons Surviving Church Thinking about those Involved in the Commissioning Event at Bishopsgate July 2024
Philip Jones Ecclesiastical law The Church Commissioners: England’s Ministry of Religion
David Goodhew The Living Church The Collapse of the Anglican Church of Canada
Lucy Winkett Faith in her future: Empowering women and girls to lead
Stephen Parsons raises some important concerns around the Bishopsgate events. On another thread, someone said that these irregular / illegal ordinations / commissionings raise significant safeguarding concerns, despite the assurance that the Bishopsgate Seven have all completed C of E safeguarding requirements. As it happens I was yesterday looking on the web for news of a former student and found some relevant posts he had written. The significance is that the author (Nick Howard) is himself a very conservative evangelical and a former member of the congregation at St Helen’s. TA readers with very long memories may recall he did… Read more »
Charles, thank you for the links. I’d be very interested in hearing both from Peter and Roland Wateridge on this. They have been active in commenting on another thread and I’ve read Coltart and been trying to work out where a dispassionate reaction might take me. Meanwhile what I see is a continuing willingness in some church circles to address intention not effect. That really will not do when looking at safeguarding.
David Keen linked the above article by David Goodhew on the August 3 thread. I made two long comments on it there. I shan’t repeat them here, with the exception of this one observation, if I may, which I suggest unravels a caricature of the Canadian church often made by conservatives i.e. the notion that the Canadian church has been characteristically ‘progressive’ is simplistic if not completely false. Mr. Goodhew might ponder how the theory of relativity applies metaphorically to various narratives including his own. What one sees where one stands can give rise to a perception of reality that… Read more »
‘What one sees where one stands can give rise to a perception of reality that is ultimately unreliable’. Hi Rod – I think where you stand (as a liberal catholic) might also have an influence on what you perceive. Speaking as a conservative (which I was at the time), in the late 1990s when I was on the Faith, Worship and Ministry committee I definitely felt I was part of a powerless minority. The Canadian church is certainly more pluralistic than Mr. Goodhew seems to think, but its conservative members are well aware that they are a niche group. And… Read more »
Thanks Tim. Certainly. Being a liberal Anglican influences my thinking. Although I suppose my thinking is an influence that accounts for being a liberal Anglican. I have no trouble believing that you felt like a powerless minority at that time on FWM. ( I’ve had similar feelings, still do in fact, as a Maritimer in relation to National. ) My point is as you note, the Canadian Church has been and is more pluralistic than Mr. Goodhew depicts. I think his argument about the Canadian church declining because it has been ‘progressive’ is mistaken for reasons I stated on the… Read more »
Re the Goodhew article:
Any discussion of “collapse/decline” of any particular form of Christianity in any nation needs to be placed in the context of the decline of Christianity throughout the Western world. Canada and its Anglican church are not unique among the nations of Europe and North America.
You don’t need to be Einstein to know that over 30% of clergy leaving over a single issue is significant even allowing for long term trends. It has already been recognised that ordinands need to be protected from unorthodox bishops through structural provision. Unfortunately this protection does not go far enough because of unjustified accusations of homophobia targeted at individuals. Only structural differentiation will provide the safeguarding needed.
The concept that ordinands need to be ‘protected’ from bishops with whom they disagree speaks of fear, if not (medically speaking) phobia.
Many of us have served under bishops with whom we disagreed on the Trinity, the Resurrection of Jesus, the nature of the Eucharist, the Second Coming, the validity of women’s ordination, and any number of other issues. Why is the blessing of same sex relationships the one issue that outweighs all others?
Absolutely. Unless the bishop is going to insist that only his version of these issues can be preached in his diocese, where’s the problem? As a writer. I have worked with editors with whom I profoundly disagreed about many things, including spelling, grammar, syntax, etc., but as long as he didn’t mangle the meaning of my writing in the process, we got along just fine.
Because bishops pull strings to recreate dioceses in their own image, if they can. This is what has happened in Canterbury, for example, as Perry Butler can attest.
You seem to know a surprising amount about what I can attest James ( whoever you are)
This was the situation in Winchester under the previous bishop (Dakin). Many people, clergy and laity, were afraid to speak up. Doing so meant they would be singled out for special negative treatment.
But why is that worse re LLF than it is when it concerns fundamental tenets of the Creeds?
Because it is the cause du jour and the bishops supporting it want to bring it into their dioceses. But all the things you mentioned have been problems as well in the past.
But why is this worse than earlier issues were? Some of them were much more fundamental to Christian belief. No one has yet explained to me why this is the one issue that justifies schism, when disagreement on central Christian beliefs did not.
Accusations of homophobia directed at those who can’t countenance treating gay people the same as they do straight are far more justified than claims that bishops are unorthodox for disagreeing.
“You don’t need to be Einstein to know that over 30% of clergy leaving over a single issue is significant even allowing for long term trends.”
Thanks. “Everyone is dying and our death is thereby mitigated” is strange logic and needs reminders like yours.
The narrative of decline in the Anglican Church of Canada is nothing new. Data from nearly every church and secular source, be it General Synod, Census Canada, the Church of England Office of Statistics and The Episcopal Church indicate that membership, worship attendance and giving have been trending downward for decades. Our own records indicate that the trend began in 1966. However, to suggest that the church has collapsed based on data collected during the pandemic is suspect. Many parishes did not submit reliable data until 2023. I’ve noted previously how the publication of statistics by our General Synod has been… Read more »
Insightful and accurate. Thanks.
I don’t profess any great knowledge of the Anglican Church in Canada. However, within the statistical time frame David Goodhew addresses, I did have a couple of chats with two Anglican Canadian bishops. Both at the time expressed their real concerns for the future of the Anglican Church in Canada due to the implications of the almost industrial scale historic abuse and cultural destruction that was being uncovered, particularly directed against First Nation Canadians. The Anglican Church was heavily implicated in this abuse. Both bishops were highly committed to building bridges and new understanding with those marginalised and misunderstood groups.… Read more »
That is correct. People tend to talk about the divisions and conflicts they’re interested in and ignore the rest. The most important thing, of course, is our complicity with systemic racism and abuse, and the damage that was done to generations of indigenous people, and continues to have an effect today. The stated purpose of the residential schools, according to government policy, was to ‘kill the Indian in the child’, and we were complicit in that. And even the bridge-building and listening can be self-serving. We are keen to work toward reconciliation, of course, but we find it hard to… Read more »
I think your comment is very insightful. I think there are several reasons for the demographic crisis we face in the Canadian church. Industrial scale abuse is sadly a pretty good descriptor. It is a huge stain on our history. It is also the case that the Anglican Church of Canada is contending with the forces of secularization. It is an issue that impacts variously religion in Canada in general. I referenced that in one of my comments on the Aug 3rd thread –the comment with the link to 2021 Canadian Census data.
I don’t understand the Bishopsgate commissionings. Why can’t they be ordained by +Ebbsfleet or one of the London bishops who takes a conservative line on sexuality (e.g. +Islington)? Does this imply St Helen’s Bishopsgate have already decided to leave the Church of England?
Their reasoning would be that the Ordinary would be +London or +Southwark (whichever is the case), and that +Ebbsfleet or +Islington would only be exercising delegated authority from a revisionist bishop. If you believe that you cannot be in fellowship with a revisionist bishop (and take communion with them, as is required of an ordinand at an ordination service), then receiving diaconal orders at this point in time would not possible.
If you cannot share communion with the bishops (and presumably archbishops) of your church then surely you have already declared yourself to have left it. Everything else is paperwork.
What is the “it” they they have left? They haven’t left St Helen’s Church. Anglicans are not Cyprianic.
They’ve left the Church of England and the Anglican Communion, as both involve being in communion with the ABC.
That situation, Jo, has been around for 30 years but has been mostly tolerated because the PEVs have been exercising authority delegated from the Ordinary. But what about the women priests of Blackburn diocese who cannot share communion with their Ordinary, not because of their own feelings but because he won’t accept it. That seems to me to be a much greater departure from catholic order.
I wonder if the form of words should be changed to ‘And now we give you thanks that you have called these your servants, whom we, but not really we because we’re using someone else’s delegated authority, ordain in your name.’ Is the ordaining bishop the ordaining bishop or not?
Pete you were in communion with revisionist bishops when you were Bishop of Willesden. I saw you taking communion with them. Did it not matter to you in the same way?
They hadn’t changed the doctrine and liturgy of the Church of England. Their private speculations on the faith once delivered were their responsiblity. What those calling on people to leave don’t seem to get is that the Reformed Catholic Church of this realm has a grounded orthodoxy which they embrace gladly, expressed in scripture, creeds and historic formularies. Why would they want to leave that? It’s the revisionists who have put themselves beyond the pale.
Exactly. Compactly stated.
So to be clear are you now out of communion with and don’t receive communion from the Bishop of London, even though you have her PtO and are an assistant bishop in the Diocese of London?
As you know, we await clarity from the HoB about the nature of pastoral provision that is being made. What is important is how we support clergy and parishes who wish to remain part of the CofE but are in impaired relationship with their diocesan bishop. Hence the Alternative Spiritual Oversight which has been put in place by CEEC. The fracture, I repeat, is on the side of those who have embraced revisionism. It’s not about my personal position. It’s about the integrity of the CofE as a whole.
I see you avoid answering the question Pete. That’s unlike you and I guess we can draw conclusions.
As I have said before – and you have acknowledged – you were content to appoint clergy who were in same sex partnerships, were supportive of them, and not keen to ask intrusive questions. It seems you have changed somewhat.
No, the doctrine is being changed. By the Bishops and GS. My position is unchanged.
And just to be clear why I am asking: it is about your personal position if you are saying one thing but doing another. The integrity of the CofE is not distinct from the integrity of its bishops.
Do you realise how much this sounds like “stop making me angry and I won’t hit you”?
I’m not angry. Not sure where that is coming from. I am sad that we have come to this.
The question was about your personal position. Would you receive communion from the Bishop of London or not?
Pete clearly won’t answer that directly but the implication of his answer is that he does. Or in other words ‘do as I say, not as I do’.
Clear to whom?
I listened to Lucy Winkett’s sermon. She’s clearly an eloquent preacher, although I wasn’t especially comfortable with the standing ovation at the end. Clearly the battle lines are being drawn between the big near-neighbour London churches she mentions, of which St James’s Piccadilly is one. Personally I hope for an orthodox and inclusive Church of England in which women and gay people are able to take their place without discrimination but I’m not sure either of the ‘sides’ currently punting for our support is offering exactly that. In one corner I see ‘Neo-Puritan Church’ – rigid, self righteous, essentially fissiparous.… Read more »
We all hear different things in sermons. I heard passion and prophecy in Lucy’s words but I also heard humility and an acknowledgement of imperfection. I didn’t hear anything gnostic. I find the certainty of the con evo crowd a huge turn off; it doesn’t speak to me amidst the messiness of human existence.
Please don’t restrict certainty to the “con evo crowd”. Evangelicals of al different hues have certainty. As it says in Luke 1.4 “ so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught”.
We can be certain about the adulterous nature of the marriages of divorcees; that offending limbs must be chopped off; and that marriage is only for weak people who cannot contain themselves. The problems start when Scripture requires interpretation for the modern context. Wealthy, privileged white men at All Souls Langham Place, Holy Trinity Brompton and St Helen’s Bishopsgate have set themselves up as the deciders of certainty. Their hubris is worthy of challenge.
Sorry Friar Dean, but I can’t see the connection between your rant and the certainty that Christians enjoy and which is laid out in the NT.
I’m glad you are certain divorcees can’t remarry. Why don’t you criticise those evangelicals who have?
I understand that a number of those involved in the irregular commissioning services at All Souls Langham Place and St Helen’s Bishopsgate were mentored by the Revd Jonathan Fletcher of Wimbledon. Mr Fletcher enjoyed giving and receiving oily rubdowns with young men in the buff. His behaviour doesn’t speak to me of the evangelical certainty you describe. The homoerotic nature of his encounters communicates ambiguity if one is being charitable and hypocrisy if not.
I’d be interested in your take on how such certainty squares with Hebrews 11:1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”
Are we living by faith, or by certainty? And by certainty, I would suggest could be implied the ability to prove the truth objectively to someone who does not share my conviction. And I don’t think that Christian apologetics has ever reached such a standard of proof.
If certainty is on offer why, historically, have evangelicals divided so often over matters of belief? And what of Paul – ‘For now we see in a mirror, dimly … Now I know only in part; then I will know fully’. (1 Cor 13.12)? Of course the issue is what ‘certainty’ and ‘knowing’ is being referred too. And even on this,there are differences of opinion.
I refer to the certain hope of resurrection!
That is my faith too … but how, and why, do we ‘hope’ for something that is ‘certain’?
Accepting differences of opinion is one thing, affirming is another. It is impossible to affirm all the opinions expressed here. The question as always is what is essential and what is not and how can we be certain of what is essential? If bishops wish to revise what has hitherto been considered essential and certain, then there is a way of doing this, but for their own reasons are seeking to bypass it and so they are directly responsible for the state of confusion the C of E is in. As the Archbishop of York admitted, ‘no one wants this’,… Read more »
That is your take on what is going on. It is not mine or that of many others. I have been committed to theological and bible teaching all my ministry. it is one thing to disagree. It is another to urge that you, or I, may be seriously mistaken. But the idea that I and others, with bibles open, have come to our present convictions by being ‘economical with the truth’ makes me wonder where you have set the borders of your reading and conversations.
For the same reason Anglicans broke with Rome and Methodists broke with Anglicans and Pentecostalists broke with Methodism – and Anglicans persecuted them all. Are you not certain in your own way?
‘Certainty’ is a word that needs using with great care in the context of faith. It is certainly true that there has been, and still is, a great deal of oppression in the name of religion practised by people convinced and certain of their own rightness. ‘My confidence is not in the certainty of being right, but rather on the grace and mercy of God, before whom I have sought truth as best I can’ (anon).
The divisions sadly, were because all the parties involved were all equally certain they were right. None of them thought, as Cromwell suggested, to consider that they might be wrong. And this is the tragedy – we all do it; its built into our DNA. The problem probably existed before the Reformation. But once something is written down in print, to a particular kind of mind, it becomes absolute, right or wrong. Faith does not work like a scientific formula – but far too many of us think it does. And, if you’ve got that kind of mindset, it is… Read more »
Protestant Churches especially have a great tendency to split because Scripture is not self-interpreting and so differing interpretations are inevitable. Some splits have turned out to be over truly important theological issues. But many have been shown up by the passage of time to have been tragic mistakes that have weakened the church and taken generations to repair e.g. the Downgrade Controversy in the Baptist Church at the time of Spurgeon in the 1880s and 1890s, the Great Disruption in the Church of Scotland in the 1840s. At the time some were convinced that there could be no compromise about… Read more »
Surely, that depends on the translation? The longer I live, the more I realise that the only certain thing in the world of faith is that God loves us, and is with us.
No, the things to which I refer are certain, unless you believe that Jesus was not raised.
Belief and certainty are not he same.
Roman Catholics and Orthodox have ‘certainty’ too. Why do you style yourself ‘Fr Dean’ is you don’t believe catholic faith?
But I’m not a Roman Catholic, I’m an Anglican. The Vatican’s position is that Anglican orders ‘are utterly null and void’. They are certain about lgbtqi matters and yet many of the Vatican’s priests and bishops are gay. I would suggest that you read Frederic Martel’s book – In the Closet of the Vatican. He interviewed a cohort of male sex workers at Rome’s Termini station whose clientele are exclusively RC priests. The case histories were rather sad tales of lonely men looking for love and affection. So much for certainty.
Jane, I am not sure how well you know St James’ Piccadilly, but I think you would be quite comfortable there. Because of its inclusive policy it provides a home for people on the edge of Christianity, not just LGBTQ people, but also people who have a post modern approach to faith. Personally I fit into both categories. But there are many others, including many on the core leadership team, who have a much more traditional faith. The activities for those on the edge get all the publicity. But at the centre, led by Lucy, is a careful attention to… Read more »
Simon, I didn’t hear Lucy say anything gnostic in her sermon. I respect Lucy as a responsible church leader. I do however have a concern about the growing engagement with gnosticism in the context of LGBTQ activism generally. As a concrete example, take a look at the Telegraph article of 19 January 2024 – ‘Meet Britain’s first trans archdeacon: ‘I promised myself I’d not prioritise being a priest over love.’ The article begins with a quotation from the Gospel of Thomas: ”Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven,’ Jesus tells his disciples’. While the Gospel of… Read more »
I share your view in part, Jane. I also found that particular article difficult for the same reason. I’m afraid the inclusion of the quote came across to me as somewhat self-indulgent, and spoke more of establishing intellectual superiority than anything else. No doubt many will strongly disagree with me. More broadly, my impression is there is something of a generational trend at work in activism, but the only evidence I can offer is that of what I see and what my friends and colleagues who self-identify in these ways tell me. They (and I) think the pendulum swung theologically… Read more »
Thanks for the response, Jane, it was helpful clarification. I can understand your point of view about the article but I don’t regard it as a major crime. It is certainly less problematical than the many expressions of anti-women and anti LGBT church teachings that frequently hit the headlines. Or the other article that came up when I put “trans archdeacon” into the Telegraph search engine: “Church of England investigates vicar after he calls trans archdeacon a ‘bloke’” The first line of the article reads “Every woman who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven,” Jesus tells his… Read more »
In my view, Simon, the actions referred to in the other article you cite and the many more comments that appeared around that time were disgraceful, by anyone’s standards.
St James & Emmanuel, Didsbury is such a church. It featured in today’s edition of Songs of Praise, which you should be able to watch on iPlayer.
Janet, thanks for the recommendation. I’ll have a watch. I visited their website and liked what I saw. Seeking to be inclusive while remaining orthodox is far from easy, as I think we’re seeing. We urgently need churches that are striving to hold that vital middle ground and it would be good to hear from and about them more often.
Jane. I think Janet has made an excellent recommendation. St James & Emmanuel, Didsbury may be exactly what you are looking for, a mainstream evangelical church with a strong LGBTQ welcome. It is also much closer to you than St James’s in London if you wanted to visit. But we must never forget the cause of that welcome. It took the suicide of a teenage girl, Lizzie Lowe, to challenge St James & Emmanuel to examine and change its own teaching. To quote from https://lizzielowe.org/about-lizzies-legacy/ “Adored, talented and popular, in 2014 Lizzie Lowe took her own life at the age… Read more »
You’d be very welcome at St Mary Abbots any time. We are self-consciously ‘sunny side of central’, creedally orthodox, and inclusive.
I went to St Mary Abbots about 20 years ago during a weekend stopover in London, and was delighted to see that the verger (I’m not sure whether that was his exact title) was someone I had known in Scotland.
Mention of St Mary Abbots triggered my old man”s memory that I was ordained deacon 40 odd years ago by the Bishop of Kensington in that very church. However it is the verger story that amused me. Not long after that ordination I was at a party, and was asked by a party goer what I did for a job. I told him. Oh, he said;”I had an uncle who used to go to church, perhaps you know him”. Small world the C of E!
I was ordained both priest and deacon there 1980 and 81. And I am pleased to see the Vicar is one of my ordinands from my DDO days..her predecessor was at university with me, so small world indeed.
I was one year behind you, but my ordination as priest was a very grand Diocesan wide affair at St.Pauls Cathedral, with the Bishop of London. It was a very anglican pick and mix ceremony, with most in surplice and stole, and us very anglo catholic, donned with chasuble and anointed with oil by Bishop Masters. You had to express your preference beforehand. It was very impressive, very moving, and ever so slightly bonkers! I can’t remember if the con evos were in scarf and hood.
Bishop Masters’ successor decided to ordain priests in their parish churches according to the tradition of the Church. And he was vested similarly…sometime in cope, sometime in chasuble, sometimes in convocation dress….and I as DDO adapted myself similarly….quite Church of England really!!😀
Over the period 1980-81 the See of Kensington changed hands, from Ronald Goodchild to Mark Santer.
Indeed. I was made deacon by Ronnie and priested by Mark
Colin Coward insightful as ever. The word “nice” has been made largely meaningless (as it is just redefined by whomever is using it) and definitely a perjorative in our modern society. I think we need to always remember that we are all on our own journey of faith and at different places in it. What we need from our fellow Christians is different at different places in our journey. Challenge to those at the start of their journey can be perceived as an unwelcoming barrier, easy fellowship to those further down the road can lead to a comfortable complacency if… Read more »
I was interested that the archbishop was prepared to denounce right wing organisations as ‘UnChristian’ .I wonder how he would describe the abuse within the church- and the ever ongoing protracted failure to deal with it properly ?? It diminishes us all .
And I agree about strengthening the ministry of parishes
Have you seen this morning’s BBC news website, Susanna? About Bradford? Beyond belief.
I must admit I’d not heard the archbishop had denounced right wing extremists; given things which have been said on here about certain people’s financial links with GBNews, it would be interesting to hear his views on that bit of good stewardship, and about this latest mess, which is full on in public.
This one can’t be hidden any longer.
Like ‘not so humble parishioner’ its the quality of my parish church that keeps me involved. Anything above that level, forget it. I daren’t say any more!
Do you mean Blackburn, rather than Bradford?
Sorry, Simon. Yes, Blackburn. A slip of the Ordnance Survey.
When Donald Coggan became Bishop of Bradford in 1956 one authoritative year book said he had become Bishop of Blackburn.
So I must be in good company then. I regret to admit, my knowledge of British geography becomes a bit less precise once you pass the Potteries and the Roaches, as most of my wanderings have been to the south-westwards. More to the point in this case, my nerves have been very bad with myalgia today, which is not an aid to concentration, believe me. By the time I wrote the post the two names had morphed. This seems a good time to tender my apologies to Adrian and others, as a few recent posts have been a bit more… Read more »
This is one way of dealing with the abuse.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2gj77pvwwo
Don’t you mean failing to deal with abuse? Though everyone is talking about learning the lessons going forward (yawn)
I’ve just listened to the programme on BBC sounds- Andrew Graystone was extremely interesting about the Church of England systems all being seized up like an old clock .
The entire situation is totally outrageous – why are not more people shouting about this??
I prefer not to! Just reading the story was bad enough. Give people time, perhaps, and they will start; this one is too public now – the cat is well and truly out of the bag.
In our house, I have two veteran American case clocks, a good century and a half old; which still run nearly perfectly. If my clocks can do that, why not the CofE?
With the Bishopsgate Seven, is there anything the powers that be could actually do? I mean, I expect them to do very little since dropping the hammer is rarely tactful nor particularly Christian, but if someone in the legal office thinks this might be an ordination by the back door, what are the consequences?
Well, it clearly isn’t an ordination. In CofE terms, it is liturgy, prayer and the laying on of hands that makes a deacon. The words used were not those of diaconal ordination. The laying on of hands was, I think, a mistaken action, since we don’t commission lay people with laying on of hands. Unwise to give the impression that it was something that out wasn’t. But liturgical education is at a low ebb in the CofE…
Given the discussion on here, I’m not sure that it is so clear cut. There was laying on of hands and there’s all this talk about ‘breaking bread’, so I think a good faith interpreter could see this as a quasi-ordination. Granted the form of words was different – although, the history of ordination liturgies tells us that there’s been drift there over the centuries – but if it were so clear cut, this debate wouldn’t be happening; a church would’ve appointed some lay-leaders as churches often do (music directors and Sunday school leaders and such) and no one would… Read more »
And, even if you and I agree that it wasn’t in any way an ordination, that wasn’t my question. My question was ‘if someone in the legal office thinks this might be an ordination by the back door, what are the consequences?’, and I’m happy to grant that’s a big ‘if’.
The Legal office will not have issued any letters of orders and there were no oaths or intention to ordain. So I don’t think the legal office have got any interest. Plus I’m not convinced these people care much about ordination or even really know or care what it is.
Plus the fact that it was done secretively, without naming those “commissioned”. If there’s really nothing to see here and this wasn’t intended as an ordination then why is it necessary to hide who was commissioned?
Yes, it clearly wasn’t an ordination because they said so and the words used were not those of an ordination service, but it could have looked remarkably like it to a casual observer. So it would be good to hear St Helen’s admit that they made an error of judgement in the way the commissioning took place and take some advice on how to prevent such a misunderstanding in future. And that any subsequent ordinations as deacon and priest in the Church of England will be with the permission of the Diocesan bishop.
“But liturgical education is at a low ebb in the CofE…” “A dog ate my homework.” Even the liturgically unlettered will see the laying on hands with prayer as ordination in all but name and breaking bread together as eucharistic. CEEC is surely trailing its coat here.
This isn’t CEEC. It’s St Helen’s Bishopsgate. Not the same.
Technically you’re correct, but the distinction between the two is very, very blurred and not helpful. To an outside observer the participation of CEEC personnel in the service and the video issued by St Helen’s e.g the President of the CEEC, gives every appearance of it being a CEEC supported service.
Will you (or the CEEC) ask St Helen’s to to clarify that this was not an ordination and that, as you say, it was unwise and a mistake for them to use a liturgy that might be misunderstood as such?
An admission from St Helen’s/CEEC/+Rod Thomas that this was, in +Pete’s words, ‘an error of judgment’, would be a start. But more than that it was a deliberate provocation.
An apology is due to the Bishop of London; the one charged with the ordering of the Church’s common life in St Helen’s.
Are not Conservative Evangelicals keen on repentance, or does that apply only to the sins of others?
But you were there? Which are you? It was a broad gathering from within the conservative evangelical world was it not? So really not surprising if the many tribal distinctions within that world should not be obvious to those watching from over the borders
Some years ago, I discovered that my predecessor in a parish had been in the practice of conducting blessings rather than baptisms for infants, where he had called them ‘Christenings’ and had dabbled his hand in the font before blessing the child. The only way to know it WASN’T a baptism was that he didn’t use the word baptise and that the certificate he gave afterwards had – in very small letters – a statement to the effect that nothing in the service had used pages xx to xx of the ASB. Needless to say, the families all thought that… Read more »
Quelle eglise! as dear old Cheslyn Jones used to say. Does no one care about liturgical order…that some clergy seem to be liturgically illiterate and bishops don’t seem to bother about what occurs in some parishes.
At the invitation to communion I use “Behold the Lamb of God….” as it is more engaging (and biblical) than the anodyne and preachy “Jesus is the Lamb of God….”
There was a time when I felt a mix of guilt and illicit delight over this. But the scale and reach of today’s liturgical infractions have spoilt all the fun and I can no longer see it as even a minor peccadillo.
And by the same token, if you do something that looks like a wedding, you shouldn’t be surprised if people think its a wedding. It’s just an adaptation of the Schrodingers Liturgy principle in PLF – devise something that looks like x to people who want it to be x, but that can be denied to be x to people who don’t want it to be x.
When is an ordination not an ordination? Doubtless the lawyers and liturgical experts will have strong views but are we seriously suggesting that God decides whether an ordination is, or is not valid on the basis of human jots and tittles? Indeed, the idea that if the law or liturgy is slightly amended that God will be bound by the change is nonsensical. The same can be said about marriage. Perhaps the only truly authoritative sacrament is baptism. So concern whether this was or wasn’t an ordination is arrant nonsense IMO. There seems to me to be only 5 possibilities:… Read more »
I think you’ve ignored the option of ordination as a sacrament: an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible grace, wherein the bishop affirms the call of an individual (by God directly and/or by the church) and does so with certain recognised actions and words.