Judith Maltby ViaMedia.News Equal Marriage – 1928 Style
Peter Stanford The Guardian Is the UK prepared to let its rural churches rot – or can they be saved?
“A tour of abandoned Norfolk churches prompts reflections on the future of these sacred buildings in an age of declining faith”
Mark Vasey-Saunders scm press Disagreeing about our disagreements
Stephen Cottrell The Archbishop of York Easter Sunday reminds us to celebrate, not fear, our differences
Fergus Butler-Gallie Engelsberg Ideas Laughing with the Face of God
Some insightful comments in “Disagreeing about our disagreements”. “The biggest danger in our current situation is loss of trust. Conservatives and Liberals are both trying to evaluate whether they can trust the House of Bishops. It is corrosive to both of those relationships if the impression is given that the church is not giving honest answers to people making painful decisions about their future.” and “Gaslighting conservatives by shifting goalposts whilst denying anything had changed and bribing liberals by promising them meaningful change in the future and a blind eye now in exchange for their silence.” Sadly the House of… Read more »
Join all those pieces in a single one and we have a quick summary of what the whole Christian world and not only Anglicanism state of affairs has devolved into: A “sex cult” with empty Churches and people whom don’t understand what really Christianity is about!… The young people have the world at their palm on their smartphones!… And they don’t want to endure all this debacle, nor from the conservative, nor from the liberal side of the pond, but they are surely far more sensitive to the inability to change from the conservatives, because their solicitation level from the… Read more »
In the past, it was possible to tell different groups different things. Jeremy Corbyn could, for example, be a very different politician in the back room of Catholic pubs in Belfast, while campaigning in Islington and while speaking in Parliament, and there was no-one, or almost no-one, to know any better. Hansard was a permament record but required consulting paper copies, and the rest of it just blew into the aether. Even if someone had made notes or, even more implausibly, filmed events on Super 8, there was no means to disseminate it. Not only what happened in Vegas and… Read more »
Also this!… The other day, one of my relative teens told us: “I don’t want Church anymore! Their message is not for me! Their sexuality understanding is not only outdated, but they can’t comply themselves with it once they hold lots of pedophiles on their highest ranks! I have a far better world outside of it in the shopping mall with my friends!… Or if I wish, I can volunteer to help the poor and vulnerable!…” How I understand her, even though I remain a man of faith!… The Church lacks transparency, and the world is becoming smaller. The smaller… Read more »
Given the audience – Telegraph readers – the Archbishop gives some good and encouraging perspectives about living with difference and disagreement and it is an antidote to some of the ecclesial and social tribalism which can sometimes permeate some of the comments here (myself included). For example, in the past 72 hours, I have not read one comment of unbridled joy at the resurrection of Jesus Christ. #just saying and observing!
HA, will this do? https://ramblingrector.me/2023/04/12/easter/
A marvellous homily giving practical and wise advice. Thank you for an original reflection on the meaning of Easter.
Thank you Fr. I can’t claim originality – I doubt I’ve had an original idea in my life – but I adhere to the timeless academic tradition of plagiarism, in this case from Bishop Andrewes. Some of his insights are astonishing. At Christmas 1614 he said “[the embryonic Christ] was not idle all the time He was an embryo – all the nine months He was in the womb; but then and there He even eat out the core of corruption that cleft to our nature and us … [we] were by this means made beloved in Him [God]. …… Read more »
Homeless Anglican makes an astute observation, especially the last sentence of the post. Mea culpa. Stanley, your rejoinder is poignant. After reading it, I was thinking of the line from John ( 20:17, NREB), “Do not cling to me”. The translation apparently is supported by the ‘durative sense’ in the Greek. We tend to cling to the way things were rather than embrace transformation. Continuing with the vibe, your piece resonated with my reading earlier today from The Guardian, the article on Gabor Mate and addiction and trauma.
It’s always gratifying when one sees the penny drop in someone else! I’m interested in Gabor Mate’s writings and impressed by his work in Vancouver. What Biblical writers’ called demons are our addictions (the “demon drink” ), and not just things we ingest or inject. The person that helped me to see this was Sister Consilio of Cuan Mhuire, an addiction centre in Ireland. You can hear her here from 15:15 onwards: https://www.icatholic.ie/portlaoise-novena-sr-consilio/
They are. They are also ‘legion’. Maté has some interesting insights about work as an addiction. Some addictions are reinforced with social rewards. Years ago during my decade as an archdeacon, I read a book by psychotherapist Barbara Killinger titled, Workaholics: The Respectable Addicts. Both in theory and in practice piety rationalizes workaholism among affected clergy with unfortunate outcomes in personal and family life.
“We tend to cling to the way things were rather than embrace transformation.”
“We tend to cling to the way things were rather than embrace transformation.”
Indeed. Douglas Adams was writing about technology, but his famous quote can be read far more widely:
A lot of wisdom in that. It would appear to be applicable to scholarship and continuing education ( or lack thereof) among clergy–bishops included. New ideas, if entertained, could undo a lot of knots in the controversies in the church. But no, we tend to talk in terms of ‘doctrine’ rather than seeing things as a policy change in the light of new information. The mantra invoked is, ‘ be ye not conformed to the world’ which strikes me as church speak for ‘them new fangled motor cars will scare the horses.’
In Buckingham Palace the Chief Clerk to the Private Secretary to The Queen used to have a set of cupboards with files detailing how things had been handled in the past – and not just during Her Majesty’s reign but right back to Victoria. Precedent was the first response to everything. (I don’t know how The King does things, but I suspect that the culture has survived the succession.) The Church of England operates on the same system. Tradition can be as powerful as the Bible, or rather for something which is ‘traditional’ there is a very large confirmation bias… Read more »
There is confirmation bias ( as well as innovation) within the bible itself. Religion is not a stand alone phenomenon. It is always and everywhere an aspect of the cultural matrix, and all the elements of a cultural matrix influence one another. Tradition is something that is handed down/over—but even in the apparently static there is the undercurrent of the dynamic. Old paradigms die one funeral at a time ( Max Planck, Karl Popper)–but die they do. The bible, or Paul or Jesus are not always correct about the issues they pronounce upon.
Re Peter Stanford’s piece, for a number of years Fr. Philip Gray of Mendlesham (about the only freehold incumbent not subject to the age limit left in eastern England) and Lady Agnew of Oulton in Lothingland have organised an annual tour of the battleground area for the Norfolk Churches Trust during the lambing season. An evensong is held in one of them in rotation by Fr. Philip (he has also conducted services at CCT vestings in other parts of East Anglia). West Tofts also has a well-attended annual service, but it is almost on the perimeter fence (I attended a… Read more »
The previous incumbent of Mundford, Zoe Ferguson, used to hold services in one or more of the battlefield churches as I recall – they were in her benefice I think. Access is very limited of course so regular (frequent) worship is not possible. Zoe had to take early retirement on health grounds, unfortunately.
Many thanks. Yes, I had the pleasure of meeting her at Cranwick and Mundford (where she was trying to get a 4 PM messy service going). A charming and kind person. I was very sorry to hear several years’ ago that she had finished her ministry. Her family is also relatively local, up near Fakenham, I believe. The present HFD minister was formerly an archdeacon in South Africa (Waterburg, in the north of Limpopo, formerly Transvaal), and she has written eloquently of her time in another vast, but very different, benefice: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sand-My-Shoes-Memoirs-Priest/dp/1838172092. Access to the battlefield is banned completely except… Read more »
Sorry, Tyneham. Teynham is in Kent and is very accessible, with regular services, though at a distance from the main settlement.
I should add that another church where access is barred is Foulness (Essex), where the island (which is contiguous with the ancient parish) is now run by QinetiQ on behalf of the MOD. The church closed in about 2008/09, and worship continued at a house in the village. However, it was hoped that at least part of the church could be retained for worship by the purchaser, but that fell through and, as far as I am aware, the building remains unused. I have security clearance, and a decade ago I was allowed to get to the church, but the… Read more »
“ As Paul Binski has remarked, there is no solution which does not involve the state.” Few of those solutions will be politically acceptable. If the CofE wants state funding for buildings which remain consecrated and used as churches, then it is seeking funding out of general taxation for the promotion of its creed. Since that includes several positions — notably that it’s OK to discriminate against women, and that it’s OK to discriminate against same-sex couples — with which a large majority of the voting population have no sympathy, any government which attempted to write a cheque to the CofE… Read more »
Many thanks, I am aware of the political difficulties. That is the reason why my scheme for disestablishment also entails partial disendowment. In other words, the stock would be vested in a national agency, but the money which would fund the agency would be capital appropriated from the Church (in effect, about half of the Commissioners’ assets), and which represent much of the profits accruing to the Commissioners after they abdicated their responsibilities for clergy pay and pensions. The RCC in France also advances doctrines which are against (or repugnant to) the present current of opinion; it lost title to… Read more »
‘As Paul Binski has remarked, there is no solution which does not involve the state.’
But the state is not interested. Is there a single example of a politician or political party expressing willingness to take responsibility for thousands of listed buildings?
It is up to the Church of England to manage its own assets. My suspicion is that this will involve something along the lines of what you have outlined with the Commissioners taking responsibility for buildings either directly or through a massively expanded CCT.
In September 2019 the CCT held a conference at the V&A where the then CEO, Peter Aiers (now master of the Charterhouse) specifically disclaimed any meaningful extension of the CCT’s responsibilities. I suspect that he did so because the government (which, as mentioned, pays for 70% of the CCT) does not wish to increase its obligations, and also because the Commissioners, who are essentially under the thumb of the Archbishops’ Council, do not wish to disrupt or disconcert the numerous self-interested petty bureaucratic baronies which infest the Church. The largely useless Taylor review, which reported (or was buried) just before… Read more »
‘Coerce’ is probably too extreme a word, but something decisive might have to be done to cut the Gordian knot (since the buildings are a millstone around the necks of many parishes, dragging them down and distracting from mission). The reason why I employed it is that, by the time the Church (which is essentially a confederation of often mutually antipathetic interests) finishes negotiating with itself, and its competing internal interests, about the future of its assets, it might be too late. That said, there are large sections of the Church which are singularly guileless and/or gullible when it comes… Read more »
Judith Maltby Living in Germany, England seems like a very strange place. A Church currently wedded to the idea of lifelong Holy Matrimony was actually founded to facilitate the divorce of Henry VIII, a king who later on favoured divorce by means of executing his current wife. Not so surprising when you realise that the Defender of the (Roman Catholic) Faith must by law be a Protestant. Following in the long line of questionable moral choices, Westminster Abbey decided to lower its flag to honour a Saudi King who banned the practice of Christianity in his own Kingdom. Henry VIII… Read more »
Some of us will never let statements that the Church of England “was founded to facilitate the divorce of Henry VIII” go unchallenged. The Church of England dates back to St Augustine’s mission in 597, almost a thousand years before Henry VIII. Henry, and later Elizabeth I, removed the authority of the Bishop of Rome over the English Church. And rather than the CofE “sanitising” political power, a coronation — and particularly coronation oaths which are a precondition of anointing and investiture — is an opportunity to try and ensure that power is tramelled by Christian principles. Of course, it… Read more »
Many on Merseyside and district would not agree about St Augustine’s mission. The Synod of Chester rejected his mission around 601 AD. The British Church, extinguished in Kent and the rest of the East, long predated St Augustine. Were they not the Church of England at least as much as St Augustine?
Part of the heritage of the English Church? Yes, very probably. But Augustine’s importance is that he established the See of Canterbury and other Sees (e.g. London, Rochester) that have continued ever since (give or take a decade in the mid 17th century when the Church was presbyterian). There is continuity of succession to these and other sees over that period of time, and equally continuity of worship in the same parish churches (and their rebuildings) since the earliest. It is partly that continuity of being a Christian community in England that makes it the Church of England.
There are times when the argument that the Church of England has been an independent body since the sixth century remind me of the special pleadings of the die-hard Confederates of my country, who will argue that the Civil War was not a rebellion, but a defense against “Northern aggression”.
Did the commonwealth of Virginia exist before 1766?
Yes. I think the colonial government of Virginia was begun not long after the first settlements in the early 17th century.
And the analogy holds — the Church of England similarly existed long before the authority of Rome was rejected.
I didn’t say “an independent body” since the sixth century. I talked about it being the same body, accepting or rejecting the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
There has certainly been a Church IN England since St Augustine’s time but the Church OF England has only existed since the time of Henry VIII. There is for example no Church OF France or Church OF Poland or Church OF Spain. “OF” implies a separate geographical jurisdiction which did not exist before the reformation. Henry had to accept the authority of the Pope to get a divorce, Cardinal Wolsey was appointed cardinal by the Pope. The establishment of the Church OF England was a political act not a theological one. The Protestant reformation came later facilitated by the political… Read more »
The Statute of Praemunire repudiated papal authority in 1353. The Magna carta of 1215 uses the same phrase Ecclesia Anglicana as the Act of Supremacy of 1534. When Mary I became Queen in 1553 there was no notion of abolishing the Church of England. Merely a schism was healed, only to return in 1559. Throughout it was the same priests in the same churches mnistering to the same parishes. Many of the services changed at various times, but much less radically than they have since 1970. Nobody in Rome or England had any idea that a new denomination was being… Read more »
Regarding the second part of your post, there was an interesting discussion of this in the recent piece by Jonathan Chaplin, linked on TA on 5th April. “For the more theologically informed defenders among them, the Coronation will be an occasion not only when the nation celebrates the ceremonial consecration of their new monarch and the Church prays divine grace upon him, but also when it confesses (as I do) that political authority is not a mere human creation but is entrusted to a nation by a transcendent source to which it and its leaders are accountable. For such defenders,… Read more »
That’s a great piece by Judith Maltby.
She references the 1928 BCP. Most of the changes proposed in it (and, of course unofficially, widely used) made their way into our Canadian 1959 BCP. The wedding service does not, however, make provision for two rings (although it does omit the reference to obedience). Still, when my wife and I were married in 1979 the priest took it for granted that we would be using two rings.
Tim, just to clarify, unlike the 1928 book (C of E) the 1959 Canadian BCP does have a provision for the use of two rings. ” When the woman gives a ring, she shall say: This ring I give thee in token and pledge of my constant faith and abiding love”. (p. 571). When we were married in 1975 that provision was used. The wording for the giving of the ring by the woman is different than the wording used by the man when giving the ring. Liturgical beagles may be interested to know that the contemporary Canadian rite uses… Read more »
Right, I forgot about that – it’s hidden in a footnote at the end of the service, isn’t it? The truth of the matter is, I’ve been in full time ministry since 1978 (Church Army, then ordained), was priested in 1992, but I’ve never done a BCP wedding. All BAS.
Roger that. I was priested in 1978. Done Weddings from the BCP, but mostly BAS since it’s advent in 1985. Have not done a BCP baptism since around around 1982. Although I tended to prefer the Ministry to the Sick from the 1959 book ( with laying on of hands and anointing with oil) right up to retirement. I find it more liturgically organized than the contemporary version, old fashioned language not withstanding. Interesting that in the 1959 book the priest may bless the oil of anointing; but the BAS rite implies the oil of anointing, which can be applied… Read more »
“… must be blessed by the bishop”. All these silly rules. What’s the point of rules that can’t be policed? What matters is how the recipient receives and regards the anointing, or whatever. Caught short at a bedside a smear of hastily blessed vaseline has been known to do the trick, much to the satisfaction of patient and family. I’ve always found “official” oil of chrism not fragrant enough but enhancement by a modicum of this, that and the other from Holland and Barrett works wonders.
Vaseline? With the words of imposition, “a little dab will do you”; but I think someone else copyrighted that slogan in the 1950s. lol. It had been the practice here lo these many years to invite the clergy to gather at the cathedral for the blessing of the oil of anointing and the oil of chrism. The event also includes the renewal of ordination vows. I developed an unease about the latter aspect as it tended to have the vibe of a renewal of one’s fealty to one’s liege lord. So ‘rules’ become ingrained and ritualized conventions that tend to… Read more »
Personally I think the Holy Spirit chuckles at rules like this, and then does an end run around them.
I believe the ordered ministry in Christian churches, including ours, is the work of The Holy Spirit. The tricky part is discerning ordered ministry from social hierarchy. Discerning the Spirit involves perspective. Some years ago the practice of the ordaining bishop washing the feet of the new deacons at their ordination was introduced. On one occasion someone sitting behind me said to the person next to them, “Ah, look! The bishop is washing their feet.” At that moment it was all about the bishop. There was no provision for the new deacons to wash anyone else’s feet. The rationale is… Read more »
I don’t know if this story is true. It was told to me as true. The Mayor of a small Cheshire town was in church on Maundy Thursday with his young son. The vicar, announcing his intention of washing feet, explained that the example of Jesus was that the most important person in a group should wash everyone else’s feet. The Mayor’s son exclaimed: “that’s you, Dad”. To what extent is a bishop wahing feet a real act of humility, and to what extent is it an assertion of privilege. “I am the local Jesus, in this town I am… Read more »
Good story! Good stories make the best theology.