Fergus Butler-Gallie Engelsberg Ideas Nicaea: the council that shaped the West
Church Times Lent faith series: Upending Church and family
Neil MacGregor begins a series of uncomfortable images for Lent with Christ Discovered in the Temple by Simone Martini.
Love the expression on Joseph’s face! The expression on Jesus’ face is also well known to any parent/carer.
https://artuk.org/discover/stories/simone-martinis-christ-discovered-in-the-temple-a-700-year-old-gilded-wonder
Thanks. I love that!
I am used to the phrase “that’s a bit gay” being used as an insult by schoolboys, but I would have hoped that Fergus Butler-Gallie had moved beyond using “a series of queeny hissy fits” as a descriptor in an article like this.
Simon, in looking to connect his title to his conclusion, I missed that line. I had to go back and re-read. Yikes! Daniel Helminiak whom I reference in my initial post on this thread, is a gay activist. More info here.
https://www.westga.edu/share/documents/vitae/vita_000106.pdf
Thanks Ruariidh. It’s not a major sin by Fergus, but only by pointing out these unconscious but damaging habits of speech can we encourage people to do better next time.
It’s not the first time I have had to complain. Last time it was a letter to the Imperial War Museum complaining about their use of the word “deviancy” in relation to Lawrence of Arabia’s sexuality
I did get a kick out of his reference to Santa Clause (St. Nick) punching Arius. Reminded me of the old Alice Cooper song: “I went to church incognito. When everybody rose, the reverend Smith he recognized me, and punched me in the nose. …no more Mr. nice guy, no more Mr. clean.” lol. Alice is very religious btw.
https://youtu.be/brf-Y8SmFfs
Perhaps we see this through different lenses, Ruairidh. Fergus Butler-Gallie was obviously trying to put a bit of comic levity into the article to leaven a dry subject and, to be fair, the appalling behaviour of these bishops has become a bit of a comic staple. The important question is not their behaviour then, but our attitude to their behaviour today. Christianity had started off (I would argue) within the mystery religion tradition, led by an inspiring teacher who preached universal love and compassion, and (like all mystery religions at that time) was open to the membership and leadership from… Read more »
Sure; but I think the differing perspectives can be compatible. First Saidiya Hartman. A young undergrad in our family introduced me to her work recently. (link). Hartman is an African-American literary scholar and a member of the Royal Society of Literature. She developed the theory of critical fabulation in her work on enslaved women. The idea is to combine limited historical archival material with fictional narration. My thought was, could that be a window on the gospels and the lore, cult, story that develops around Jesus? Crucifixion was an attempt to completely annihilate a person and their political legacy. The… Read more »
Lastly, I judge the Butler-Gallie article as sardonic style . Hence St. Nick, and the Rev. Smith of Alice Cooper. That said, the political vectors around Nicaea have been the subject of historical consideration for some time. To bring it to a boil, I would say it is important to think about all the dynamics, most especially the theoretical, and not just accept something because a cohort dressed in pointy hats and preaching scarves says I must. In that regard it is important to separate the philosophical viability of a theory from cheer leading it. Politics are still at work… Read more »
Thanks Ruairidh. I am very happy to agree with virtually everything you say, but still want to have a different emphasis or lens for myself. You are exactly right about the Gospels and how we approach them, and how we treat the nuanced balance between fact, fiction or fabulation. The mystery religion ideas work for me and, I would argue, have some basis in the historical records, but other answers are absolutely available and valuable for those that use them. As for the Nicaean Creed. I can totally accept it as a document or statement of faith within church history,… Read more »
Simon, Agreed! It extends beyond borders. Here as a poem I’d be happy to have recited as a ‘praxis creed’ in our liturgies. (There are a couple of variations on the text.) This version comes from Amnesty International. I first learned of this in a Catholic values education high school class over fifty years ago. FIRST THEY CAME By Martin Niemöller First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist Then they came… Read more »
Got it in one Ruairidh. But when reading that poem one needs to ask who the “they” is who is coming for us. Leaving it as “they” can let us escape the full learning. So many Christians in the current world have some form of cognitive dissonance around being able to accept that the “they” that does so much death an destruction is the same church that they love and are a member of. But I don’t think that is their fault. There is a fantastic book by Derek Scally called “the best Catholics in the World” which explores the… Read more »
“Leaving it as “they” can let us escape the full learning.” Oh I think so; but then we are confronted with art and a dialectic is set in motion. There is a biblical-liturgical comparison to be made with ps. 51 which is front and centre during lent. Yet in the biblical narrative the psalm is attributed to David and follows from his immoral behaviour. Similarly with the parable of the Good Samaritan. Who is my neighbour? Who is our church’s neighbour? As mentioned I learned that poem as a teenager in Catholic high school. It wasn’t until several years later… Read more »
Thanks for the reading suggestions, but when I googled Niemoller I found a different book to explore. As an ex-submariner myself I was blown away by Niemoller’s WW1 submarine career “In October of that year, he joined the submarine mother ship Vulkan, followed by training on the submarine U-3. In February 1916, he became second officer on U-73, which was assigned to the Mediterranean in April 1916. There the submarine fought on the Saloniki front, patrolled in the Strait of Otranto and from December 1916 onward, planted many mines in front of Port Said and was involved in commerce raiding.… Read more »
That certainly is riveting. Thanks. Had not come across that kind of detail. I was aware only of the generalities of his Great War experience from the biographical sketches like the one I linked. I did that to connect his poem to his life lived.
I mentioned Boff not so much as a reading suggestion; but as an example of someone who was targeted by the church for his theological perspectives. You never know where a thread may lead. Thanks again for the conversation.
Thanks Rod, that was helpful Who is my neighbour? I think so often with these issues of guilt or blame then if it is “I” or “they” who did it, then it is easy to deal with. The problem comes with “we”. How does one deal with grievous faults by a group one is a member of, especially when you personally are not responsible, that’s when it gets complicated, and difficult to negotiate feelings of shame and anger and guilt and so on. Have mercy on us us, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot… Read more »
I like the use of the plural in that translation! I’ve sent you an email about Ireland. Thanks so much for this exchange. Slainte!
Those who appreciated the Fergus Butler- Gallie piece may be interested in the linked article by Daniel Helminiak from the June 2017 edition of, Zygon: Journal of Religion and Science. Helminiak uses Nicaea as one example in the service of a more expansive consideration; but there is a touchstone with the Butler-Gallie’s article. See the teaser below. (Mind you I think the notions of theory and quoad se can be applied in such a way that highlights the problems with the two natures Christology). I’ve attached a link about Daniel Helminiak. Among other things he is the author of a… Read more »