Ian Gomersall A Retired Rector’s Reflections What do you do with your palm cross?
Martine Oborne Women and the Church Making the pain of our exclusion present
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love What kind of God do we believe in – Supernatural or Metaphysical?
Reading through Colin’s comments, I was reminded of a remark by Kenneth Graham, author of ‘The Wind in the Willows’ (and, if you are wanting a truly beautiful piece of metaphysical, or possibly supernatural writing, I’d recommend the chapter “The Piper at the Gates of Dawn”.) Graham remarked somewhere that his world – the Edwardian era – had rationalised everything, so that ‘water’ was simply H20, rather than something to enjoy playing with, and that we no longer expected to meet angels unawares, or knights in shining armour just down the road. The loss, he said, was entirely ours. (Did… Read more »
I fail to see the motive behind Martine Oborne and her friends attending a Chrism Mass from which women clergy are excluded. Perhaps the title gives a clue. They wanted to feel pain – which is an extraordinary reason to attend Church. I’m glad they were warmly and politely welcomed. But I fear their attendance would have changed no one’s mind. It’s rather like a staunch Labour party member attending a Reform rally in the hope Farage supporters feel Labour’s pain.
They “feel pain” whether they go or not. Perhaps they felt it worth “bearing witness” to their pain? An act of solidarity with others who are “othered”?
Please read the title with more care. It is to no one’s credit if their presence, and exclusion, there did not challenge or stir consciences.
The bishop of London was there by kind invitation! How does that stir the consciences of those who invited her?
It might stir their consciences that she was forced to sit on the sidelines. On the other hand, some might rejoice to see she had been sidelined. It depends on the individual and their conscience.
It’s worth noting that, according to the Church Times, Bishop Sarah spoke of the “personal cost for myself and others” of attending the service.
Good for her. It feels awful to be stuck up in front of everybody and be conspicuously banned from taking part. You might as well ring a bell and shout ‘unclean’!
The Catholic worshippers at the Chrism Mass adhere to what they believe to be the traditional view of ordination held by the majority of Christians. It is your opinion that “it is to no one’s credit” that people didn’t change their minds to agree with you.
I had a hope their presence might ‘stir consciences’. I said nothing about changing minds.Once again you misquote what is being said here.
I fail to see the difference. Why would anyone have a conscience about doing what they believe to be right?. Your assertion suggests they should have their minds changed by the mere presence of women clergy.
According to psychological research people don’t tend to have their minds changed through theoretical or theological arguments.
It’s often the case that they have a personal experience in life which challenges their views, and causes deep thought, and leads to a sometimes painful change of views over time.
Such personal reflection will often go hand in hand with deep intellectual/theological reading and thinking, but it is the personal experience, and not the intellectual argument, which is the catalyst for change.
The sorts of personal encounters, experiences and conversations that Martine Oborne describes are exactly what may change some people’s minds.
The conscience needed is the capacity to be sensitively and respectfully aware of the impact of my convictions and behaviour upon those who, with the same thoughtful integrity, have come to views very different from mine. Nothing to do with forcing people to change. Oh and while we are talking about sensitivity and respect, women clergy are rather more than a ‘mere presence’ in the church.
Presumably you respect the “thoughtful integrity” of those who don’t accept women clergy and are aware of the impact of your views upon them.
I aspire to nothing less.
And yet you think those who disagree with you should have their “consciences stirred”. That’s rather disrespectful.
Would you also fail to see the motive of a Jewish person to attend a neo-Nazi meeting? Or a Muslim to attend a group that called for the occupation of the West Bank?
Sometimes it is necessary to make one’s presence known to demonstrate your opposition.
Or a Jewish person attending a rally calling for the destruction of Israel, of which there have been many in London (or at least attended by many who hold such views).
Good Friday fast approaching & church person queries role of pain & suffering in Christianity?
I didn’t. I questioned the motives of those who attend Church to seek it out.
As Pam Wilkinson commented above, the pain of discrimination is there whether people seek it out or not. When I was growing up in the USA, black people were making point of turning up at white-only universities and other places they were excluded from, to make their exclusion more visible. The women’s attendance at the Fulham chrism mass has drawn attention, very effectively, to the sex-based discrimination the C of E still allows.
I’m not sure there’s a parallel. If there were no women bishops – or black bishops – in the CofE on prejudicial grounds that would be intolerable discrimination. Allowing people to hold traditional beliefs around priesthood doesn’t affect those who disagree. Personally I don’t believe in men’s ‘headship’. I wouldn’t seek out a Church which believes women are inferior to demonstate my disapproval.
FrDavid H we are truly in the season of miracles. I think I might actually agree with you.
This has never happened before! Happy Easter!
There is certainly a parallel between those who discriminate on the grounds of sex and those who discriminate on the grounds of colour. In the USA I knew devout Christians who believed racial discrimination was God’s will, on the grounds that black people were descended from Noah’s son Ham, and therefore lived under God’s curse on Ham. The effect on black people of such discrimination was the same whether there was a ‘theological’ or ‘traditional’ reason, or just instinctive. And while I don’t want to drive anyone out of the C of E, allowing people to discriminate against women within… Read more »
The majority of parishes in the CofE accept women priests. Only a small minority are not open to women clergy. Ms Osborne and friends sought out a minority Church to express their disapproval. The days when people attend Churches to demonstrate against women priests are happily over. It is sad that these women deliberately attended a Church to show they shouldn’t be allowed in the CofE. So much for Christian tolerance.
And you do not question the motives of all the saints who sought to come closer to God through pain & suffering?
Even in secular world this is understood. “No Pain – No Gain” is the classic mantra for PT Instructors the world over.
I see the citizens of Ukraine, Sudan and Gaza as victims of pain and suffering. I don’t think middle class ladies free to attend a church service undergoing what you assert.
Of course you do not.
I see the citizens of Ukraine, Sudan and Gaza as victims of pain and suffering..
You might not, but I do.
Interesting twisted leap of logic.
I may say that I have been shipmates with Ukrainians, and you do not get a closer bond than shared hardships.
the first or second sentence of Francis James’ comment? I am confused.
That’s a bit old school. Modern athletes training have coaches who are very aware of injury risks, and the need to recover quickly so training can go on day after day. this is particuar;y true with young athletes – over training can be a big issue, and coaches have been disqualified for such.
I hate PT instructors! I had one who forced a boy to spend the whole class naked because he had underware under his shorts. He played no 8 for Bath,so was not to be questioned.
You can see the church from our living room window in our family home where my brother now lives in retirement. It’s a Basil Spence church and you certainly cannot miss it. It’s the church that we both served at and from which we were recommended for training for ordination many years ago. My mother was churchwarden. There is presently an interregnum, my brother now a retired bishop is sadly not allowed to help out on a Sunday because he has ordained women as priests…he is tainted. I could help out if asked, even though I agree with him on… Read more »
Around here it is enough to commit the ‘Thought Crime’ of accepting that women can be priests to put you beyond the pale. Perhaps unsurprisingly that hard line can be counter-productive & some have moved on from thought to deed & now welcome women priests in their church (in for a penny, in for a pound)
If only the church had to obey the Equal Ops laws and wasn’t given an exemption
Then the pain in Martine’s and Colin’s writings would end. Discrimination over gender and sexuality (and all other forms of discrimination and oppression) needs to end.
Would also love to see the C of E disestablished.
The current situation where many clergy and lay leaders are discriminated against whilst the C of E continues in all forms of state pageantry and power despite less than 1% of the population attending is untenable. The centre cannot hold, and change is coming, one way or another.
Your points about reversing exemption from equality laws and the need for disestablishment are well made although achieving the latter may be much more complex and convoluted than the former.
That would create a very challenging situation for the RC and Orthodox churches in this country. And all mosques would need to be open to female imams.
Yes it would certainly be challenging to RC and Orthodox churches but there’s an important question about how far “religious” or other special pleading should enable some groups to evade laws which reflect the wider values of our society. How about female circumcision? Or allowing a child to die rather than have a blood transfusion?
Do you think that those two examples are equivalent to holding a particular view about who can be a priest?
… and male circumcision? A ‘religious exemption’? And halal meat- a ‘religious’ variance from concerns about animal ‘welfare’? Holy grounds?
Yes. That would be excellent
Making illegal the all-male ministry of the RC Church and in Mosques sounds like the religious purges under Stalin. The Pope wouldn’t be happy if the British government proscribed his Church.
I don’t see the present government being enthusiastic to allocate precious and limited parliamentary time to bring forward Disestablishment; Tony Blair and Robin Cook failed to find a formula for Lords reform; disestablishment would also involve the undoing of the Elizabethan Settlement and open the question of the Monarchy. All too much. On the other hand a simpler ‘attack’ on pontificating troublesome prelates in the House of Lords, maybe following on from succesful and also popular removal of heridatary peers, could find favour with an atheist Prime Minister with an at least largely agnostic cabinet and a Jewish wife. Equalities… Read more »
I have taken this position in the past myself, but I have changed my mind on it. The news is covering how Trump is trying to control Harvard and the parallel is a little uncomfortable.
Asking for discrimination to cease is the opposite of control …
An excluded person on both counts is here saying discrimination on the basis of sex, gender, sexuality and gender identity is wrong.
That’s NOT equal to an elected president freezing educational funds unless he gets to change the humans who make up the administration of Harvard, and potentially its student body (spoiler alert: this DISPROPORTIONATELY affects Muslims and people of colour)
You’re effectively saying there should be no room for traditionalists in the CofE.
In other words your position is an intolerant one. Agree with your liberal theology or leave.
Why should traditionalists trust any assurances given on LLF if you’re arguing for ripping up assurances on complementarian belief on ministry scarcely more than a decade after they were given.
Are you advocating for all denominations to be forced to share your beliefs on sexuality and gender roles?
If so that’s a massive violation of freedom of religion and any separation of church and state that disestablishment should bring.
Gareth I am part of a growing inclusive evangelical network that states very clearly we do not want to force out those holding traditional views on sexuality. But on conservative discussion threads where I seek to engage I have frequently been told I am not an evangelical, I have broken my ordination vows and more than once – from Ian Paul – I should leave the CofE and join the Church of Wales (a church he declares is in terminal decline). May I ask what your position is towards folk like me?
So should those with a ‘traditional’ view of slavery be tolerated, perhaps in the same way that ‘a woman’s place is in the kitchen’ especially a vicar’s wife if he is allowed to marry? Of course those who resisted proposals to end the slave trade had a, to them, reasonable hope of ‘mutual flourishing’. Would they still?
The questions Colin raises challenge the thinking which frets, and is convinced that God frets, about the nature of our reproductive organs, and what we choose to do with them. Or (in the previous set of blogs) conceives of God is a discrete “being” for whom we must identify appropriate pronouns.
Are there not bigger and more interesting questions about what Paul Tillich called “the ultimate concern”?
The Bishop of Ebbsfleet is unlikely to preside at a Chrism Mass, but would Martine Oborne and her friends attend any service led by him, as a matter of principle?
The Bishop of Fulham is a remarried divorcee – his brand of ‘traditionalism’ is neither coherent nor consistent. The ladies should have highlighted the ‘tainted’ nature of his second marriage.
And a Freemason.
So mote it be.
This do in remembrance of me, me, me. Maybe the bishop will restore some discipline?
I wish I was less surprised to find all the discussion here about “what kind of Church” rather than (as Colin Coward invited us to consider) “what kind of God”. I spent half an hour of quiet contemplation this morning, after my shopping, in a church with a very beautiful and simple altar in the Lady Chapel, all decked out with little bouquets of white flowers. I was not very successful in my effort to quiet my mind because I found myself (having grown up in a church which was shrouded with gloom on good Friday, with crucifix etc wrapped… Read more »