Reading Gilo’s article, I am wondering where we can learn to be better as a church? Can the Roman Church help us here? Given this is our “Jimmy Saville” moment, can the BBC help us? It becomes more clear to me that we are unable to do this ourselves, but need models of better practice and there have to be better institutional models.
So Archbishops Welby, Cottrell, Sentamu and Carey are all embroiled in these safeguarding issues and splashed across the national news: how can the rest of us – the little people – possibly hope to do mission with that backdrop?
Fr Dean
30 days ago
Bishop Helen-Ann is a prophetic voice and history will judge her rather better than her drippy colleagues. This institution doesn’t like uppity women; she’ll have known that since before she was ordained deacon. I trust that she is surrounded by family, friends and respected colleagues who are praying for her and supporting her as best they can. Whatever happens she will be able to hold her head high, whilst her mealy mouthed episcopal colleagues are looking at their unpolished shoes.
Jonathan Aitken’s logic-free criticism of the Bishop of Newcastle on the “The World at One” today (his main criticism seemed to be that she’d got a lot of media coverage) rang pretty hollow. And yes, Fr Dean, they “don’t like uppity women!”.
Mr Aitkin’s criticism of the Bishop of Newcastle comes from one, who despite his past and dubious Christian adherence was supported by bishops who were easily impressed by the prison conversion of a famous name! As a result when he sees true integrity and honesty in a bishop, who is a woman, he attacks in the most mealy-mouthed and despicable way. Voices in the wilderness are always despised from fear and in comparison with the mores of the day!
Jonathan Aitken told the World at One there’s a “sustained campaign to get rid of Archbishops all coming from the bishop of Newcastle. She’s rarely been off the airways to get rid of archbishops. Not one bishop agrees with her”. Poor woman. She seems to be a lone voice.
I wonder if he would be as vocal if the Bishop of Newcastle was a man. The online petition regarding York is run by a man and has nothing to do with Newcastle, just someone sick of the behaviour of the church leaders and lack of action to support survivors and get justice. Jonathan Aitken knows the thoughts and opinions of all the Bishops because? As a washed up ex politician once jailed for perjury he needs to shut up and disappear. He should know, better than most, the corruption and obfuscation of many of those in authority, and the… Read more »
Can we please agree to use Susannah’s “awkward woman” or some similar phrase? “uppity” originates in, and was widely used in, the language of Jim Crow, has very unpleasant collocates, and unless you’re aiming to draw those parallels (and don’t mind the actual language) there are far better alternatives.
“In the Jim Crow South, uppity was used as a derogatory term to describe Black people who tried to improve their socioeconomic status. White Southerners used the word to describe Black people who didn’t act as they expected, or who they thought were “out of place”. Uppity was often used with the n-word.”
I carefully chose the word ‘uppity’. The CofE has accepted that it is institutionally racist; it is also sexist and homophobic. It is snooty. Assertive women, black people, queer people and the working classes are all treated as though they’re uppity when they lift their voices. The CofE is now facing an existential crisis because it treated the survivors of clerical abuse in the same way.
Well, if “uppity” in that context had unpleasant racist connotations, maybe in this context it has unpleasant mysogynist connotations? So perhaps Fr Dean’s use of the phrase, in quotation marks, was apposite?
In the 80s and 90s, there was an Anglican feminist magazine called Uppity. The term was adopted and owned, much as the feminist publishing house proudly adopted the term ‘Virago’. So for those of us who remember back that far, it has positive and progressive connotations. ‘Uppity’ was an important contribution to the battle for women’s ordination.
Yes, Janet. ‘Uppity’ was the brain child of the Blessed Monica Furlong and others, a Moderator of MOW, to whom all those who support the ordination of women owe a great deal. Fearless and intelligent, a prophetic voice. There is an excellent essay on her by Peter Sherlock in Anglican Women Novelists (2019, Maltby & Shell, eds) for those who wish to know more. In my view, she was the most important British Christian feminist thinker of the second half of the 20th century.
I may not be a total fan-girl of the Bishop of Newcastle, but the time had come for a voice that called out the crisis: and specifically, the fact that this is no longer a case for sticking plasters and polite niceties, but a compelling moment crashing down on the Church and demanding radical change. There needs to be a recognition that from the top down there’s a problem (however faithful many parish safeguard leads have been), and that a serious part of the problem is culture and frameworks of leadership, reluctance to act radically, or take personal responsibility for… Read more »
Susannah
30 days ago
(continued response…) People in the ‘inside’ of the culture just don’t seem to ‘get’ how it is failing, or how they themselves may be (collectively) the problem (not just as individuals but rather as an organisation that buys in to its own structures and ways of operating/perpetuating/knowing best at the top). The perception of Church failure, and huge loss of trust and confidence, whether fair or not, cries out for more radical voice and critique, and radical changes, and it’s sad if such voices are marginalised because things can’t go on as before. The country is disgusted. The ‘in crowd’… Read more »
The main problem is that the general public has lost interest in the CofE. The live question is whether it would give up on the Christian Gospel if it were disentangled from the CofE said to be representing it. The answer to this question lies on the coal face of Christianity’s future in England. A Church of England drawing around 2% of the population of England — this is the obvious problem. It doesn’t matter how much an enthusiast inside the CofE sees good things. What matters is figuring out the 2% problem.
Noone underestimates the problems facing the C of E. But are things better in France with its massive shortage of priests? Or Ireland? Or the folk Churches of Scandinavia? Or Germany? This is surely a problem throughout western Europe and increasingly the case in the US. Historic Nonconformity has even greater problems here. For me the interesting question is religious change in England: the growth of black churches, Orthodox Churches of various kinds and the numerous free evangelical, pentecostal and similar fellowships worshipping in schools and halls. It partly recalls the early 19c where in 1817 in the H of… Read more »
I believe the point I was trying to make had to do with a “Church of England.” Not decline in church bodies that do not purport to be the established church of a nation, a nation that has determined it isn’t interested, except minimally. That is a unique problem. Specific to the claims being made, and the history it has carved out for itself. In general, your “interesting question” is right on point. Is part of the energy being spotted precisely that, “this is not the Church of England.” No House of Lords, no Lambeth Palace, no lumbering House of… Read more »
If the fellowships I have in mind resembled Chemin Neuf I would feel their energy well directed. Despite the trappings of the ” Established” Church I find the liturgical and sacramental life of the Parish church much more attractive to be honest.
The 2% problem is an issue but the problem here is that the church is not seen to be running its affairs genuinely and clearly – and instead keeps trying to minimise issues and gloss over concerns. I have said here before that when the Archbishop of Canterbury stepped down/back/out it would have been the moment for the Archbishop of York to step forward, say things have gone terribly wrong, say he is taking charge and saying he will be pushing for independent oversight of CofE safeguarding. The fact that this didn’t happen speaks volumes about the willingness to confront… Read more »
Well said, Susannah. We need far more people like you and Helen-Anne; people with the hewel (passion) and fervour to speak up and shake this shambles to its foundations. No ‘in a way’ about it – the parishioners you describe indeed are the church, the living hands, feet and heart of which Christ himself is the head. If this whole organised shambles collapsed in the wake of these scandals, Christ would still have a church in England, and it would be them, the faithful who keep on keeping the show afloat in inner cities and rural parishes. Many years ago… Read more »
Robert
30 days ago
On the Wesley ‘Lo! He comes with Clouds Descending’ I’d found the words difficult this advent with the line ‘gaze we on those glorious scars’, yes I know what it is a reference to, but post Makin/Smyth that feels rather raw (yes that word!) and a danger of applauding a copying of Christ’s wounds. I see the original has ‘gaze we on those glorious feats’ apart from the danger of a similarity in sound to feet (again wounded) for me that makes it more singable. Maybe with the passing of time next year it can be divorced from Smyth at… Read more »
There are parts of this hymn that I find troubling.
Especially the triumphalism about some other people—it’s not clear who: the Jewish authorities? The Roman occupiers?—“deeply wailing.”
Why am I supposed to get excited about other people wailing?
I just don’t sing that verse.
The ‘deeply wailing’ surely applies to the opening words of that verse “Every eye shall now behold him”. In context that means and includes us, not solely ‘other’ people “shall the true Messiah see”. It’s not 21st century language, but I don’t have any difficulty with it. I would say it’s a very relevant verse and would be against omitting it.
That reading of the verse is not persuasive. The people who will be “deeply wailing” are “those who” did certain things:
Every eye shall now behold Him,
robed in dreadful majesty;
those who set at naught and sold Him, pierced, and nailed Him to the tree,
deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing, shall the true Messiah see.
So who do you think “those” people are?
Isaiah 53 says it’s all of us. Some will wail with grief over what they have done, others will wail in shame, and yet others in blessed release and thanksgiving.
If you want the verse to be antisemitic, it can be interpreted that way. But it doesn’t have to be.
No, it certainly doesn’t.
Revelation 1:7 says that “all the tribes of the earth” shall wail or mourn. The hymn omits “all.”
Again, you can try to insert “all” into your interpretation. But that’s your rewrite, and not what the text of the hymn says.
Is one not meant to rejoice in the returning triumphant King who will do away with all evil? If the prospect of the final establishment of the Kingdom doesn’t excite, I wonder whatever could.
I said I don’t sing that verse.
Not sure about you, but I for one do not get my theological jollies at the prospect of “those” people “deeply wailing.”
I often think Psalm 139 provides an interesting perspective on this theme. After a litany of praise to God, when the Psalmist is most taken up in the goodness of God, he seemingly interrupts his poetry with the cry ‘If only you, God, would slay the wicked! Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!’ Some would say this is out of place, but it has been pointed out that such depth of love for the goodness and holiness of God must contain within it a deep revulsion towards anything that is not good or holy. Part of the glory of the… Read more »
Deeply wailing is a sign of absolute recognition. The wailing of the acknowledgement of what was truly happening. The Son of God dying for the sins of the world. You have somehow turned it into something else. As the 4th Gospel has it, “They shall look on him whom they have pierced.” And “Not one bone of his shall be broken.” Verses from ancient scripture that he sees here being valiantly fulfilled. The Body of Jesus on the Cross is pouring forth water and blood, the sacramental life of the church’s presence sustenance, in baptism and in his life-giving blood.… Read more »
Last edited 26 days ago by Anglican Priest
Robert
30 days ago
I think Gilo slips from commenting that no diocesan bishop has spoken out apart from the bishop of Newcastle to then referring to bishops without clarifying whether it’s still just diocesan that have failed. As one commenter writes (on SChurch), Julie Conalty suffragan of Birkenhead has not been silent but maybe not as forthright as Hartley but the press are more likely to ask for comment from diocesans – I’d here wish to declare an interest of me being in and having a licence in the Chester diocese!
Clear enough to me that Gilo means diocesans in both cases – after all they are the ones who are prayerfully selected by CNC, and that makes their spineless failure to speak out all the more stark. That Martin Warner says nothing surprises me not at all, but there are others from whom I did hope for better.
David Rees
29 days ago
We owe a great debt to Bishop Helen- Anne Hartley showing enormous courage and leadership bringing out in the’ public domain’ issues within the ‘structures’ of Church of England around ‘safeguarding’ and how ‘power’ is exercised both in these Institutions and the Archbishops Council in a complete misunderstanding of the Nolan Principles that any public facing office holders are expected to uphold following the Makin Report. These Institutions urgently need to be disbanded and reformed through appointing an independent person and others of high integrity to change the ‘culture’ and ‘structures’ – the terms of reference to be set by a… Read more »
Jane Charman
29 days ago
I’ve tried, and I think failed, to sound a note of caution about the actions of +HA and their likely impact on the Church of England. My working hypothesis is that she does care about the Church and genuinely believes she is acting in its best interests. The Church is sick and needs healing. The treatment will be drastic but worthwhile and will restore the patient to health. The outcome, though, may be very different from what she hopes and intends, for the simple reason that probably a majority of those cheering her on don’t actually want to see the… Read more »
I think Pete Broadbent is genuinely concerned to see the Church of England survive. He sees his participation in CEEC as enabling others to remain within the CofE. I don’t think he wants to weaken the CofE. He is also very enthusiastic about the ministry of female bishops and has been consistent in advocating for survivors. Susie Leafe is obviously thoroughly disillusioned with the CofE. However, there is no question that she is passionate about survivors and I don’t think it’s fair to cast doubt on that. She is one of the few evangelicals that Julie Conalty has any time… Read more »
As a member of the ‘ISB Dozen’, one of John Smyth’s 30 UK victims, one of 130 Worldwide victims, and featured extensively in Sarah Wilkinson’s report, I can assure you that I want the Church to deal with historic safeguarding successfully and to move forward. I am a fully committed member of the C of E and the entire senior team in my local Diocese is aware of my support for both the Diocese and the C of E. I disclosed to the C of E on 2/2/17, and essentially the Church has done nothing since. I was the first… Read more »
In my haste, & because I wish to set the record straight, I overlooked one Archdeacon, who prefers to remain anonymous, who, together with his wife, has been an absolute tower of strength these last 8 years.
Jane, it’s always worth pondering words of caution, but I find myself wondering whether you think that the best course is to do nothing much. Your contribution lacks a ‘in my view this means…’. Is the CofE stuck with ‘we know this won’t work but there’s nothing we can do’, like ++Ebor? That is more than grim for survivors. And your use of ‘whipped up’ in respect of what we have been hearing is to my ear rather patronising. That CEEC and others may be exploiting recent events for their own advantage is very likely. But that is no reason… Read more »
Jane, I care passionately about the way in which survivors of abuse are failed repeatedly by the Church and the way in which leaders of the Church have repeatedly sided with and protected abusers. I also care for the emotional and theological and spiritual well-being of the Church and am fully supportive of Bishop Helen-Ann’s public interventions. I’m also glad to recognise value of the diocese of Truro’s statement. If conservative evangelicals and the NSS are gaining attention by reacting actively and publicly then good for them. At least they care enough about life. health and well-being to speak publicly,… Read more »
I disagree that the ‘immediate crisis’ has been ‘whipped up’. The Church of England has been shovelling hundreds of abuse cases under the carpet for many decades now, until the carpet can no longer cover all the mess. Some of us have been trying for many years – 30+ in my case – to see justice done, and the Church has passed by on the other side. There is much more yet to come out, and it is certainly not just those who want to see the Church fail who are backing +Helen-Anne. Many want to see the C of… Read more »
One of the standard criticism being made about the Church (for example on a snow sports forum I belong to) is that “it’s the old boy network, they all close ranks to protect their own”. When I responded to that by insisting that there were many good people trying to improve things, but that some of the problems stemmed from very different views about theology, I was just accused of making excuses. I don’t think “the public” has entirely lost interest but they deserve to be told the truth. Although the airing of familial dirty linen is painful, and deeply… Read more »
It is interesting that there is a diversity of voices raised. Jane notes that I’m part of the CEEC arrangements (which is not arguing for the break-up of the Church of England, but rather seeking to keep those who are opposed to the LLF/PLF innovations within the CofE by resisting those innovations and planning for a future if/when they become law). A difference of perspective here, I guess. What remains crucial is that we address the concerns of victims and survivors and get safeguarding into a properly independent framework, including mandatory reporting and redress. That requires us not to weaken… Read more »
Using posts by the angry people remaining on X (formerly known as Twitter) as a stick to beat the Bishop of Newcastle is quite wrong, not least because the desertion of that platform by so many people for calmer & more rational waters has made it even more distorted. Moreover the bishop is no longer a lone voice in the wilderness, Truro have issued a strong letter of support, and I suspect that others will follow as the wind direction becomes all too obvious. Moreover, the fact is that the archbishops & their circle have faffed around for so long… Read more »
Wise words, I think, Jane, thank you. ‘My working hypothesis is that she does care about the Church and genuinely believes she is acting in its best interests. The Church is sick and needs healing. The treatment will be drastic but worthwhile and will restore the patient to health.’ I’ve every hope that this typification of +HA’s perspective is true. But like you I’m not convinced her modus operandi is helpful, or likely to achieve her intended aims. I wonder about the longer term impact on her episcopal ministry too. What damage may have occurred to her credibility and relationships… Read more »
I think there will come a time for healing the institution, and I hope it comes. But if there’s one thing I’ve learned in a very long career in the corporate world, the church and helping other professions hearing cases of conflict and professional conduct problems, it’s that healing is impossible until you’ve named the problem honestly, dealt with it justly and met the hurting with compassion. The Church has done none of those things. So it is vital for the long term health of the institution to not rush into attempting healing by putting a fragile plaster over a… Read more »
I do so agree. The pushback to +Newcastle signals that for the CofE the organisation is more important than the people it hurts and damages. Well, as a corporate message that is fine for the KGB/FSB and its like. But I struggle to map that idea onto the two great commandments. I also think that whether ++Ebor should stay or go is a side issue. His departure would, as things stand, change nothing, but would certainly add to the decibel count. If I were still in the CofE, rather than the SEC, I’d be working hard in my diocese to… Read more »
Sadly the Church of England has the Alice through the Looking glass view of Child protection. Has the Bishop of Newcastle allowed abusers to remain in post or lied to Synod? Not that anyone seems to have found out.Is she saying what most people down the pub would, that bishops who have done this should consider their position? Then why is she the one on the naughty step? The Cof E is busy turning a blind eye and pretending there is no problem. Never mind that victims and survivors are having another Christmas with no compassion or redress from the… Read more »
I really don’t think you need to worry too much, bishop Hartley is now being attacked, undermined and marginalised on multiple fronts. Misguided or naive she may be, she has shown moral courage – but I expect there will be more serious threats to her and no doubt further attempts to discredit her if she refuses to be silenced. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, it’s revealing that the Church of England can take years to reply to a letter about safeguarding but there can be immediate action to attack Bishop Hartley. It’s a question of priorities and… Read more »
Patricia
29 days ago
I would agree with Anglican priest that the general public has lost interest in the church which is why I am somewhat puzzled by there currently being over 32,000 signatures on the Change.org petition for the Archbishop of York to resign, me being amongst them. Most non-religious public recognise the post of Archbishop of Canterbury but know far less (and often fail on game shows when questioned) about York. Even with his recent 15 minutes of fame over the Tudor case I am surprised by the number of signatures so perhaps the public have lost interest but would still quite… Read more »
There’s an extremely low opportunity cost to an online petition. You do just click a button; takes a few seconds. They got to four million for one for there to be another general election the other week on the Commons website. As ever, the internet is not a representative sample.
A friend recently received an email from his Archdeacon containing a picture of a Christmas card. There was an instruction to print it off and fold it. This is a “low opportunity cost” and shows the depths to which the hierarchy have sunk .
Wonderful! My preprinted card in a preprinted envelope contained no personal greeting at all. But the archdeacon’s suggestion of origami takes it to a new level. A former colleague of mine used to complain that the missives from the hierarchy were often on too shiny a paper to be able to add them to the nail on the back of the privy’s door! The cheeky archdeacon in this case wants you to use your own paper and ink. In many workplaces, probably most workplaces that would elicit a ribald response.
Obviously those who have signed the petition disagree with me, but I think there is a difference between individual calls for the Archbishop of York to resign and a co-ordinated petition. The latter feels like a bullying pile-on to me.
Kate Keates
29 days ago
Truro have just released a statement in support of the Bishop of Newcastle
The courage of +Hugh Nelson, a suffragan who has been in post for some time, and for the moment Acting Bishop of Truro, should be noted.
Kate Keates
29 days ago
I wonder if the response is affected by the Post Office scandal and Partygate etc? Is part of it that the public will no longer accept poor standards in public life?
This is an interesting point. I think it also buys into a cultural disdain for authority that has become more prevalent as the century has progressed and the scandals have multiplied, but that had its roots in a much earlier point last century. Many people also find hypocrisy disgusting. In the Church’s case, they see we so-called self-proclaimed arbitrators of morality with our Bishops lecturing others on things like working hours and conditions, whilst all the time trying to hide shoddy and illegal practice in their own institution. Last Sunday I preached at a Carol Service, where a majority of… Read more »
It is not just the Post Office scandal. If one looks across Whitehall there is the Spycops scandal, where undercover policeman fathered children on women campaigners they were investigating. There is the recent court case in Northern Ireland where the police were found to be using their investigative powers to unlawfully spy on journalists researching police malpractice. And there is a long-running war crimes investigation into the multiple UK special forces killings of captured Afghani citizens in Afghanistan. In every case senior management used secrecy, control and power to protect the institution by shutting down investigations into unlawful, criminal or… Read more »
Jane Eaton
27 days ago
I was appalled at the rhetoric used by Jonathan Aitken in relation to Bishop Helen-Ann in this radio broadcast. This man is totally out of touch with the modern world where women from all walks of life are speaking their truth and addressing the failures and cover ups in relation to many issues within large institutions. He protested too much and for me it was another Greg Wallace situation of digging yourself further into hole. He was an absolute disgrace to the C of E and to himself.
This kind of personal attack is really unhelpful. I know Jonathan Aitken well. He is a person of very great integrity, with a remarkable ministry. Very far from an ‘absolute disgrace’ to the Cof E or himself. Really not what we need on ‘Thinking’ Anglicans.
I heard one of the radio interviews given by JA and it was from start to finish a sustained attack on the Bishop of Newcastle. I understand JA might well believe the bishop to be very misguided in her efforts to remove senior clergy, but I suspect there will be many who would beg to differ with his analysis of the situation, and be quite unimpressed by his willingness to take to the airwaves in the way in which he did.
Chris Holmes
26 days ago
Dear Bishop Helen-Ann Now 78, I write as one who left the Church of England at the age of 14 after four years as a choirboy, never to return. That experience left me with a persistent sense of impatience with, and disdain for, the pronouncements, posturings and platitudinous circumlocutions of many – but not all – of the Church’s senior figures over the ensuing decades. For historical reasons, the Church has long enjoyed a position of privilege. Many would join me in questioning that status, especially now the institution has lost so much of its moral authority. And I suspect there is a… Read more »
Nigel Goodwin
26 days ago
Might be of interest to some that today Ali Miraj on LBC had a period discussing the future of he CoE. Started around 3pm. You can find it on the LBC web site, on the catchup secton. You may need to register (it’s free). Surprisingly, I was called by an LBC producer to add my two cents, they had remembered from the past that I said I had taught at the same school as Welby. I am sure I did a very bad job. I had not heard the early part of the session. Listening again now, in great embarrassment.… Read more »
Reading Gilo’s article, I am wondering where we can learn to be better as a church? Can the Roman Church help us here? Given this is our “Jimmy Saville” moment, can the BBC help us? It becomes more clear to me that we are unable to do this ourselves, but need models of better practice and there have to be better institutional models.
“Can the Roman Church help us here?”
https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2024/11/a-case-study-in-how-the-vaticans-abuse-reform-efforts-have-failed
So Archbishops Welby, Cottrell, Sentamu and Carey are all embroiled in these safeguarding issues and splashed across the national news: how can the rest of us – the little people – possibly hope to do mission with that backdrop?
Bishop Helen-Ann is a prophetic voice and history will judge her rather better than her drippy colleagues. This institution doesn’t like uppity women; she’ll have known that since before she was ordained deacon. I trust that she is surrounded by family, friends and respected colleagues who are praying for her and supporting her as best they can. Whatever happens she will be able to hold her head high, whilst her mealy mouthed episcopal colleagues are looking at their unpolished shoes.
Jonathan Aitken’s logic-free criticism of the Bishop of Newcastle on the “The World at One” today (his main criticism seemed to be that she’d got a lot of media coverage) rang pretty hollow. And yes, Fr Dean, they “don’t like uppity women!”.
Mr Aitkin’s criticism of the Bishop of Newcastle comes from one, who despite his past and dubious Christian adherence was supported by bishops who were easily impressed by the prison conversion of a famous name! As a result when he sees true integrity and honesty in a bishop, who is a woman, he attacks in the most mealy-mouthed and despicable way. Voices in the wilderness are always despised from fear and in comparison with the mores of the day!
Jonathan Aitken told the World at One there’s a “sustained campaign to get rid of Archbishops all coming from the bishop of Newcastle. She’s rarely been off the airways to get rid of archbishops. Not one bishop agrees with her”. Poor woman. She seems to be a lone voice.
I wonder if he would be as vocal if the Bishop of Newcastle was a man. The online petition regarding York is run by a man and has nothing to do with Newcastle, just someone sick of the behaviour of the church leaders and lack of action to support survivors and get justice. Jonathan Aitken knows the thoughts and opinions of all the Bishops because? As a washed up ex politician once jailed for perjury he needs to shut up and disappear. He should know, better than most, the corruption and obfuscation of many of those in authority, and the… Read more »
Can we please agree to use Susannah’s “awkward woman” or some similar phrase? “uppity” originates in, and was widely used in, the language of Jim Crow, has very unpleasant collocates, and unless you’re aiming to draw those parallels (and don’t mind the actual language) there are far better alternatives.
I carefully chose the word ‘uppity’. The CofE has accepted that it is institutionally racist; it is also sexist and homophobic. It is snooty. Assertive women, black people, queer people and the working classes are all treated as though they’re uppity when they lift their voices. The CofE is now facing an existential crisis because it treated the survivors of clerical abuse in the same way.
It is also ableist. Disabled people don’t even get to lift their voices, for the most part. They’re even missed off discrimination lists…
Well, if “uppity” in that context had unpleasant racist connotations, maybe in this context it has unpleasant mysogynist connotations? So perhaps Fr Dean’s use of the phrase, in quotation marks, was apposite?
In the 80s and 90s, there was an Anglican feminist magazine called Uppity. The term was adopted and owned, much as the feminist publishing house proudly adopted the term ‘Virago’. So for those of us who remember back that far, it has positive and progressive connotations. ‘Uppity’ was an important contribution to the battle for women’s ordination.
Yes, Janet. ‘Uppity’ was the brain child of the Blessed Monica Furlong and others, a Moderator of MOW, to whom all those who support the ordination of women owe a great deal. Fearless and intelligent, a prophetic voice. There is an excellent essay on her by Peter Sherlock in Anglican Women Novelists (2019, Maltby & Shell, eds) for those who wish to know more. In my view, she was the most important British Christian feminist thinker of the second half of the 20th century.
Nice to hear something of Monica Furlong.
I may not be a total fan-girl of the Bishop of Newcastle, but the time had come for a voice that called out the crisis: and specifically, the fact that this is no longer a case for sticking plasters and polite niceties, but a compelling moment crashing down on the Church and demanding radical change. There needs to be a recognition that from the top down there’s a problem (however faithful many parish safeguard leads have been), and that a serious part of the problem is culture and frameworks of leadership, reluctance to act radically, or take personal responsibility for… Read more »
(continued response…) People in the ‘inside’ of the culture just don’t seem to ‘get’ how it is failing, or how they themselves may be (collectively) the problem (not just as individuals but rather as an organisation that buys in to its own structures and ways of operating/perpetuating/knowing best at the top). The perception of Church failure, and huge loss of trust and confidence, whether fair or not, cries out for more radical voice and critique, and radical changes, and it’s sad if such voices are marginalised because things can’t go on as before. The country is disgusted. The ‘in crowd’… Read more »
Agree with every word.
The main problem is that the general public has lost interest in the CofE. The live question is whether it would give up on the Christian Gospel if it were disentangled from the CofE said to be representing it. The answer to this question lies on the coal face of Christianity’s future in England. A Church of England drawing around 2% of the population of England — this is the obvious problem. It doesn’t matter how much an enthusiast inside the CofE sees good things. What matters is figuring out the 2% problem.
Noone underestimates the problems facing the C of E. But are things better in France with its massive shortage of priests? Or Ireland? Or the folk Churches of Scandinavia? Or Germany? This is surely a problem throughout western Europe and increasingly the case in the US. Historic Nonconformity has even greater problems here. For me the interesting question is religious change in England: the growth of black churches, Orthodox Churches of various kinds and the numerous free evangelical, pentecostal and similar fellowships worshipping in schools and halls. It partly recalls the early 19c where in 1817 in the H of… Read more »
I believe the point I was trying to make had to do with a “Church of England.” Not decline in church bodies that do not purport to be the established church of a nation, a nation that has determined it isn’t interested, except minimally. That is a unique problem. Specific to the claims being made, and the history it has carved out for itself. In general, your “interesting question” is right on point. Is part of the energy being spotted precisely that, “this is not the Church of England.” No House of Lords, no Lambeth Palace, no lumbering House of… Read more »
If the fellowships I have in mind resembled Chemin Neuf I would feel their energy well directed. Despite the trappings of the ” Established” Church I find the liturgical and sacramental life of the Parish church much more attractive to be honest.
INDEED. Build on that.
The 2% problem is an issue but the problem here is that the church is not seen to be running its affairs genuinely and clearly – and instead keeps trying to minimise issues and gloss over concerns. I have said here before that when the Archbishop of Canterbury stepped down/back/out it would have been the moment for the Archbishop of York to step forward, say things have gone terribly wrong, say he is taking charge and saying he will be pushing for independent oversight of CofE safeguarding. The fact that this didn’t happen speaks volumes about the willingness to confront… Read more »
I would concur with the 2% going to 1% if attention is not paid to this issue.
Where I demur is the idea that 2% will go even to 3% just because people see efficiency and “running its affairs genuinely and clearly.”
Something deeper is missing.
I would agree that 2% to 3% or more is not going to be achieved simply by running affairs genuinely and clearly.
Well said, Susannah. We need far more people like you and Helen-Anne; people with the hewel (passion) and fervour to speak up and shake this shambles to its foundations. No ‘in a way’ about it – the parishioners you describe indeed are the church, the living hands, feet and heart of which Christ himself is the head. If this whole organised shambles collapsed in the wake of these scandals, Christ would still have a church in England, and it would be them, the faithful who keep on keeping the show afloat in inner cities and rural parishes. Many years ago… Read more »
On the Wesley ‘Lo! He comes with Clouds Descending’ I’d found the words difficult this advent with the line ‘gaze we on those glorious scars’, yes I know what it is a reference to, but post Makin/Smyth that feels rather raw (yes that word!) and a danger of applauding a copying of Christ’s wounds. I see the original has ‘gaze we on those glorious feats’ apart from the danger of a similarity in sound to feet (again wounded) for me that makes it more singable. Maybe with the passing of time next year it can be divorced from Smyth at… Read more »
Those of us who bear the scars of other people’s behaviour can find great solace in Christ’s woundedness. That’s worth remembering.
There are parts of this hymn that I find troubling.
Especially the triumphalism about some other people—it’s not clear who: the Jewish authorities? The Roman occupiers?—“deeply wailing.”
Why am I supposed to get excited about other people wailing?
I just don’t sing that verse.
The ‘deeply wailing’ surely applies to the opening words of that verse “Every eye shall now behold him”. In context that means and includes us, not solely ‘other’ people “shall the true Messiah see”. It’s not 21st century language, but I don’t have any difficulty with it. I would say it’s a very relevant verse and would be against omitting it.
That reading of the verse is not persuasive. The people who will be “deeply wailing” are “those who” did certain things:
Every eye shall now behold Him,
robed in dreadful majesty;
those who set at naught and sold Him, pierced, and nailed Him to the tree,
deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing, shall the true Messiah see.
So who do you think “those” people are?
Isaiah 53 says it’s all of us. Some will wail with grief over what they have done, others will wail in shame, and yet others in blessed release and thanksgiving.
If you want the verse to be antisemitic, it can be interpreted that way. But it doesn’t have to be.
It’s also an almost direct quote of Revelation 1.7 if that helps.
No, it certainly doesn’t.
Revelation 1:7 says that “all the tribes of the earth” shall wail or mourn. The hymn omits “all.”
Again, you can try to insert “all” into your interpretation. But that’s your rewrite, and not what the text of the hymn says.
Is one not meant to rejoice in the returning triumphant King who will do away with all evil? If the prospect of the final establishment of the Kingdom doesn’t excite, I wonder whatever could.
Quite. We shall be singing it with great gusto tomorrow morning.
I said I don’t sing that verse.
Not sure about you, but I for one do not get my theological jollies at the prospect of “those” people “deeply wailing.”
I often think Psalm 139 provides an interesting perspective on this theme. After a litany of praise to God, when the Psalmist is most taken up in the goodness of God, he seemingly interrupts his poetry with the cry ‘If only you, God, would slay the wicked! Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty!’ Some would say this is out of place, but it has been pointed out that such depth of love for the goodness and holiness of God must contain within it a deep revulsion towards anything that is not good or holy. Part of the glory of the… Read more »
Deeply wailing is a sign of absolute recognition. The wailing of the acknowledgement of what was truly happening. The Son of God dying for the sins of the world. You have somehow turned it into something else. As the 4th Gospel has it, “They shall look on him whom they have pierced.” And “Not one bone of his shall be broken.” Verses from ancient scripture that he sees here being valiantly fulfilled. The Body of Jesus on the Cross is pouring forth water and blood, the sacramental life of the church’s presence sustenance, in baptism and in his life-giving blood.… Read more »
I think Gilo slips from commenting that no diocesan bishop has spoken out apart from the bishop of Newcastle to then referring to bishops without clarifying whether it’s still just diocesan that have failed. As one commenter writes (on SChurch), Julie Conalty suffragan of Birkenhead has not been silent but maybe not as forthright as Hartley but the press are more likely to ask for comment from diocesans – I’d here wish to declare an interest of me being in and having a licence in the Chester diocese!
Clear enough to me that Gilo means diocesans in both cases – after all they are the ones who are prayerfully selected by CNC, and that makes their spineless failure to speak out all the more stark. That Martin Warner says nothing surprises me not at all, but there are others from whom I did hope for better.
We owe a great debt to Bishop Helen- Anne Hartley showing enormous courage and leadership bringing out in the’ public domain’ issues within the ‘structures’ of Church of England around ‘safeguarding’ and how ‘power’ is exercised both in these Institutions and the Archbishops Council in a complete misunderstanding of the Nolan Principles that any public facing office holders are expected to uphold following the Makin Report. These Institutions urgently need to be disbanded and reformed through appointing an independent person and others of high integrity to change the ‘culture’ and ‘structures’ – the terms of reference to be set by a… Read more »
I’ve tried, and I think failed, to sound a note of caution about the actions of +HA and their likely impact on the Church of England. My working hypothesis is that she does care about the Church and genuinely believes she is acting in its best interests. The Church is sick and needs healing. The treatment will be drastic but worthwhile and will restore the patient to health. The outcome, though, may be very different from what she hopes and intends, for the simple reason that probably a majority of those cheering her on don’t actually want to see the… Read more »
I think Pete Broadbent is genuinely concerned to see the Church of England survive. He sees his participation in CEEC as enabling others to remain within the CofE. I don’t think he wants to weaken the CofE. He is also very enthusiastic about the ministry of female bishops and has been consistent in advocating for survivors. Susie Leafe is obviously thoroughly disillusioned with the CofE. However, there is no question that she is passionate about survivors and I don’t think it’s fair to cast doubt on that. She is one of the few evangelicals that Julie Conalty has any time… Read more »
As a member of the ‘ISB Dozen’, one of John Smyth’s 30 UK victims, one of 130 Worldwide victims, and featured extensively in Sarah Wilkinson’s report, I can assure you that I want the Church to deal with historic safeguarding successfully and to move forward. I am a fully committed member of the C of E and the entire senior team in my local Diocese is aware of my support for both the Diocese and the C of E. I disclosed to the C of E on 2/2/17, and essentially the Church has done nothing since. I was the first… Read more »
That is terrible, I’m so sorry you’ve had that experience.
In my haste, & because I wish to set the record straight, I overlooked one Archdeacon, who prefers to remain anonymous, who, together with his wife, has been an absolute tower of strength these last 8 years.
I’m so glad you’ve had a good experience of one of the hierarchy, at least.
Jane, it’s always worth pondering words of caution, but I find myself wondering whether you think that the best course is to do nothing much. Your contribution lacks a ‘in my view this means…’. Is the CofE stuck with ‘we know this won’t work but there’s nothing we can do’, like ++Ebor? That is more than grim for survivors. And your use of ‘whipped up’ in respect of what we have been hearing is to my ear rather patronising. That CEEC and others may be exploiting recent events for their own advantage is very likely. But that is no reason… Read more »
Jane, I care passionately about the way in which survivors of abuse are failed repeatedly by the Church and the way in which leaders of the Church have repeatedly sided with and protected abusers. I also care for the emotional and theological and spiritual well-being of the Church and am fully supportive of Bishop Helen-Ann’s public interventions. I’m also glad to recognise value of the diocese of Truro’s statement. If conservative evangelicals and the NSS are gaining attention by reacting actively and publicly then good for them. At least they care enough about life. health and well-being to speak publicly,… Read more »
I disagree that the ‘immediate crisis’ has been ‘whipped up’. The Church of England has been shovelling hundreds of abuse cases under the carpet for many decades now, until the carpet can no longer cover all the mess. Some of us have been trying for many years – 30+ in my case – to see justice done, and the Church has passed by on the other side. There is much more yet to come out, and it is certainly not just those who want to see the Church fail who are backing +Helen-Anne. Many want to see the C of… Read more »
One of the standard criticism being made about the Church (for example on a snow sports forum I belong to) is that “it’s the old boy network, they all close ranks to protect their own”. When I responded to that by insisting that there were many good people trying to improve things, but that some of the problems stemmed from very different views about theology, I was just accused of making excuses. I don’t think “the public” has entirely lost interest but they deserve to be told the truth. Although the airing of familial dirty linen is painful, and deeply… Read more »
It is interesting that there is a diversity of voices raised. Jane notes that I’m part of the CEEC arrangements (which is not arguing for the break-up of the Church of England, but rather seeking to keep those who are opposed to the LLF/PLF innovations within the CofE by resisting those innovations and planning for a future if/when they become law). A difference of perspective here, I guess. What remains crucial is that we address the concerns of victims and survivors and get safeguarding into a properly independent framework, including mandatory reporting and redress. That requires us not to weaken… Read more »
Using posts by the angry people remaining on X (formerly known as Twitter) as a stick to beat the Bishop of Newcastle is quite wrong, not least because the desertion of that platform by so many people for calmer & more rational waters has made it even more distorted. Moreover the bishop is no longer a lone voice in the wilderness, Truro have issued a strong letter of support, and I suspect that others will follow as the wind direction becomes all too obvious. Moreover, the fact is that the archbishops & their circle have faffed around for so long… Read more »
Wise words, I think, Jane, thank you. ‘My working hypothesis is that she does care about the Church and genuinely believes she is acting in its best interests. The Church is sick and needs healing. The treatment will be drastic but worthwhile and will restore the patient to health.’ I’ve every hope that this typification of +HA’s perspective is true. But like you I’m not convinced her modus operandi is helpful, or likely to achieve her intended aims. I wonder about the longer term impact on her episcopal ministry too. What damage may have occurred to her credibility and relationships… Read more »
Do you have alternative proposals for addressing the various crises?
I think there will come a time for healing the institution, and I hope it comes. But if there’s one thing I’ve learned in a very long career in the corporate world, the church and helping other professions hearing cases of conflict and professional conduct problems, it’s that healing is impossible until you’ve named the problem honestly, dealt with it justly and met the hurting with compassion. The Church has done none of those things. So it is vital for the long term health of the institution to not rush into attempting healing by putting a fragile plaster over a… Read more »
I do so agree. The pushback to +Newcastle signals that for the CofE the organisation is more important than the people it hurts and damages. Well, as a corporate message that is fine for the KGB/FSB and its like. But I struggle to map that idea onto the two great commandments. I also think that whether ++Ebor should stay or go is a side issue. His departure would, as things stand, change nothing, but would certainly add to the decibel count. If I were still in the CofE, rather than the SEC, I’d be working hard in my diocese to… Read more »
Sadly the Church of England has the Alice through the Looking glass view of Child protection. Has the Bishop of Newcastle allowed abusers to remain in post or lied to Synod? Not that anyone seems to have found out.Is she saying what most people down the pub would, that bishops who have done this should consider their position? Then why is she the one on the naughty step? The Cof E is busy turning a blind eye and pretending there is no problem. Never mind that victims and survivors are having another Christmas with no compassion or redress from the… Read more »
I really don’t think you need to worry too much, bishop Hartley is now being attacked, undermined and marginalised on multiple fronts. Misguided or naive she may be, she has shown moral courage – but I expect there will be more serious threats to her and no doubt further attempts to discredit her if she refuses to be silenced. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation, it’s revealing that the Church of England can take years to reply to a letter about safeguarding but there can be immediate action to attack Bishop Hartley. It’s a question of priorities and… Read more »
I would agree with Anglican priest that the general public has lost interest in the church which is why I am somewhat puzzled by there currently being over 32,000 signatures on the Change.org petition for the Archbishop of York to resign, me being amongst them. Most non-religious public recognise the post of Archbishop of Canterbury but know far less (and often fail on game shows when questioned) about York. Even with his recent 15 minutes of fame over the Tudor case I am surprised by the number of signatures so perhaps the public have lost interest but would still quite… Read more »
Patricia, I think your comment is spot on.
There’s an extremely low opportunity cost to an online petition. You do just click a button; takes a few seconds. They got to four million for one for there to be another general election the other week on the Commons website. As ever, the internet is not a representative sample.
A friend recently received an email from his Archdeacon containing a picture of a Christmas card. There was an instruction to print it off and fold it. This is a “low opportunity cost” and shows the depths to which the hierarchy have sunk .
Wonderful! My preprinted card in a preprinted envelope contained no personal greeting at all. But the archdeacon’s suggestion of origami takes it to a new level. A former colleague of mine used to complain that the missives from the hierarchy were often on too shiny a paper to be able to add them to the nail on the back of the privy’s door! The cheeky archdeacon in this case wants you to use your own paper and ink. In many workplaces, probably most workplaces that would elicit a ribald response.
Obviously those who have signed the petition disagree with me, but I think there is a difference between individual calls for the Archbishop of York to resign and a co-ordinated petition. The latter feels like a bullying pile-on to me.
Truro have just released a statement in support of the Bishop of Newcastle
https://trurodiocese.org.uk/2024/12/bdc-demand-action-from-national-church/
The courage of +Hugh Nelson, a suffragan who has been in post for some time, and for the moment Acting Bishop of Truro, should be noted.
I wonder if the response is affected by the Post Office scandal and Partygate etc? Is part of it that the public will no longer accept poor standards in public life?
This is an interesting point. I think it also buys into a cultural disdain for authority that has become more prevalent as the century has progressed and the scandals have multiplied, but that had its roots in a much earlier point last century. Many people also find hypocrisy disgusting. In the Church’s case, they see we so-called self-proclaimed arbitrators of morality with our Bishops lecturing others on things like working hours and conditions, whilst all the time trying to hide shoddy and illegal practice in their own institution. Last Sunday I preached at a Carol Service, where a majority of… Read more »
It is not just the Post Office scandal. If one looks across Whitehall there is the Spycops scandal, where undercover policeman fathered children on women campaigners they were investigating. There is the recent court case in Northern Ireland where the police were found to be using their investigative powers to unlawfully spy on journalists researching police malpractice. And there is a long-running war crimes investigation into the multiple UK special forces killings of captured Afghani citizens in Afghanistan. In every case senior management used secrecy, control and power to protect the institution by shutting down investigations into unlawful, criminal or… Read more »
I was appalled at the rhetoric used by Jonathan Aitken in relation to Bishop Helen-Ann in this radio broadcast. This man is totally out of touch with the modern world where women from all walks of life are speaking their truth and addressing the failures and cover ups in relation to many issues within large institutions. He protested too much and for me it was another Greg Wallace situation of digging yourself further into hole. He was an absolute disgrace to the C of E and to himself.
Jonathan Aitken lost his credibility long ago!!
This kind of personal attack is really unhelpful. I know Jonathan Aitken well. He is a person of very great integrity, with a remarkable ministry. Very far from an ‘absolute disgrace’ to the Cof E or himself. Really not what we need on ‘Thinking’ Anglicans.
I heard one of the radio interviews given by JA and it was from start to finish a sustained attack on the Bishop of Newcastle. I understand JA might well believe the bishop to be very misguided in her efforts to remove senior clergy, but I suspect there will be many who would beg to differ with his analysis of the situation, and be quite unimpressed by his willingness to take to the airwaves in the way in which he did.
Dear Bishop Helen-Ann Now 78, I write as one who left the Church of England at the age of 14 after four years as a choirboy, never to return. That experience left me with a persistent sense of impatience with, and disdain for, the pronouncements, posturings and platitudinous circumlocutions of many – but not all – of the Church’s senior figures over the ensuing decades. For historical reasons, the Church has long enjoyed a position of privilege. Many would join me in questioning that status, especially now the institution has lost so much of its moral authority. And I suspect there is a… Read more »
Might be of interest to some that today Ali Miraj on LBC had a period discussing the future of he CoE. Started around 3pm. You can find it on the LBC web site, on the catchup secton. You may need to register (it’s free). Surprisingly, I was called by an LBC producer to add my two cents, they had remembered from the past that I said I had taught at the same school as Welby. I am sure I did a very bad job. I had not heard the early part of the session. Listening again now, in great embarrassment.… Read more »