I have copied, pasted and expanded the comment I made on the AF site, at the time of the original article several weeks ago: Such behaviour is entirely typical of the Church hierarchy as regards historic safeguarding and cases of historic church-related abuse. Both Archbishops, 4 out of the 5 most senior Bishops, more than 40 Bishops in total and more than half the Archbishops Council, the NST, Lambeth & Bishopthorpe have all been aware for ages (and all personally have the written evidence) that 2 Diocesan Bishops in the Southern Province who have been friends for decades since their… Read more »
The lack of a proper path to resolution in this case is further proof of why the current CofE leadership is unfit to be trusted with Safeguarding. It is fair neither to the complainant nor to those he complains of, to have this matter linger. It has been going on for years. There is a presumption of innocence and a duty on the complainant to make their case to the requisite standard of proof – and there is a duty upon the Church to provide a genuinely impartial and independent context within which such issues can be judged. The current… Read more »
Stephen Andrews claims that Anglicanism is ‘the result of a Roman Catholic mission to the British Isles in the 7th century.‘ However, the English Church has existed since earlier times, evidenced by the presence of English bishops at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century.
That’s why we don’t need to seek approval from the Bishop of Rome before ordaining women or blessing same-sex marriages
“”The English Church”? Hmm. Don’t overlook Celtic Church history in these islands. That’s a classic and annoying English blindspot. To refer to 4th century English bishops seems anachronistic.
England did not exist before King Alfred the Great who united the Anglo Saxon Tribes against Dane Law in the 9th Century. The earliest church in these islands was the Romano British Christian Church who probably had Bishops and predated the Celtic Church. St Patrick’s parents were Romano British. Following St Augustine’s mission the Anglo Saxon kings adopted Roman Catholicism over both the Romano British and Celtic Churches because St Peter ‘held the keys of heaven’ . Anglicanism seems to me to reach back to reclaim something of the English Church and English culture that was lost after the Norman… Read more »
I can’t agree with your final lines, Adrian. Like many other people, I am descended from Alfred the Great, and as a family historian I can show every single generation from him to me, my children, and my grandchildren. Indeed, I am positive tens or hundreds of thousands of people can do the same as my tree has over 1000 living descendants of Alfred for a start!
LOL! Alfred the Great Edward the Elder Edmund I Edgar the Peaceful Ethelred the Unready Edmund Ironside Edward the Exile St Margaret of Scotland David I of Scotland Earl Henry Prince of Scotland David Earl of Huntingdon His daughter Isabella Robert Bruce of Annandale Robert Bruce King Robert the Bruce Marjorie Bruce King Robert II of Scotland Robert III of Scotland James I of Scotland Princess Annabella Stewart Alexander Gordon, 3rd Earl of Huntley Alexander Gordon, 1st of Strathavon Alexander Gordon, 2nd of Strathavon Janet Gordon, heiress of Strathavon Alexander Gordon, 3rd of Birkenburn James Gordon, 4th of Birkenburn Alexander… Read more »
Yes the vital missing word from my last line was ‘patrilineal’. It is rumoured that all Europeans are descended from Charlemagne, so greetings to you all.
Ah! Now that makes all the difference! To have an uninterrupted patrilineal line of descent going back that far would be far less likely.
Of course, that sets me thinking about the claimed patrilinear descent from Abraham (Matthew’s gospel) and Adam (Luke’s gospel). Frankly, the claim of patrilinear descent from Adam is about as likely as me claiming patrilinear descent from King Arthur.
I agree. Significant Anglo-Saxon settlement in what would later become England only really began in the 5th Century (apart from possibly some 4th Century Roman deployment of Saxon mercenaries as the Roman Empire started to unravel). The remnants of the Romano-British Christianity seem to have been driven westwards as ‘pagan’ Germanic settlers gained domination in much of England. From the western parts the remnant Church seems to have developed in some degree of isolation from Rome, adopting some different practices (eg date of Easter) and some assimilation with the Celtic traditions and spirituality, such that the remnant Church in the… Read more »
It might be misleading to consider the “remnant church” driven into the west as being isolated from the European mainland.
There was extensive maritime trade and contact up and down the Atlantic seabord linking Britain with the French and Spanish west coast, and even into the Mediterranean. There is even some evidence of a tin trade linking Cornwall and Phoenicia in the first century CE. And who knows what mission activity followed the trade.
The mainstream routes into and out of “Britain” were not limited to the Dover strait and the North sea.
That’s a very fair point. It’s the degree of assimilation of Celtic spirituality within the Irish/Scottish Christianity that I find particularly interesting. (For example the Irish goddess Brigid and the claimed first female saint in Ireland, also Brigid – an example perhaps of the mother goddess being appropriated by the early Christians in Ireland.) I also find the acute references to nature in the early texts interesting, as there was a strong concept in Celtic spirituality of the earth goddess and rulers’ need to live in good relationship with her. And St Brigid’s saint day ‘co-incides’ with the Celtic feast… Read more »
Perhaps I could make a pitch for the first people to be called English were the Hwicce Anglo Saxons formed by a mixture of Celts, Romano British, Anglo Saxons and Germans residing in todays Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and part of Warwickshire. A surprising amount of Anglo Saxon and Norman history is focused on this western corner of England suggesting the Hwicce influence was significant up to and including the reformation in England. Rather than resisting invading armies they seem to have cooperated with them and thus assimilated different cultures from Roman times onwards and in so doing evolved into a more… Read more »
This was the Celtic church, not English. There were representatives from Britain at the Council of Arles but they were not English. They hadn’t arrived yet in Britain.
“The Celtic church” – was that an entity. I get confused between Saxon churches, Celtic etc. Are they distinct or simply how people of later centuries described them.
I think there is a lot of modern celtic twilight romanticism about the way people re-imagine ‘the Celtic Church’ but there was at least a very real network of Christians in Ireland and Western Scotland, with many cells and archaeological remains, literature handed down, monastic traditions, place-names etc. I suspect the Christianisation of Ireland and the West of Scotland involved a good deal of amalgamation/assimilation with existing Celtic faith, folk tradition, accompanied by the conversion of people in power. Where part of my family lives (and where I spent formative years) – the Kilmartin Valley – you see stone circles… Read more »
David Hawkins
4 months ago
Priests pray several times a day to the God of Love so how come from this process results in so little love in their hearts ? Words can be very cheap. We expect clergy to practice what they preach but over and over again this doesn’t happen. As Bishop Cherry Vann has pointed out the real test of Christian love is if it applies to opponents and people you may heartily dislike or find inconvenient. The stakes could not be higher. If we can’t even trust an Archbishop to tell the truth is it any wonder that church membership is… Read more »
If they cannot be trusted when they speak of Earthly things, who shall believe them when they speak of Heavenly things.
Rod (Rory) Gillis
4 months ago
Stephen Andrews’ “distinctive marks of Anglicanism” overlooks a very important one i.e. its essential colonial and now post colonial nature. It is an odd thing to overlook when writing from a Canadian context–especially as noted that Wycliffe was founded when we were the Church of England in Canada. . None the less the article prompted a morning smile. In a stream of consciousness moment his take on things reminded me of the old song by soprano Jeannette MacDonald, Isn’t It Romantic (link). The link is to the 1932 ‘orthophonic’ recording for the listening pleasure of the ‘orthodox’ among us.
I suspect the Canadian Church isn’t as liturgically diverse as the C of E has become. Trad Cath parishes here are mostly Roman rite, and many Evangelical parishes often don’t use the lectionary, rarely keep much of the Liturgical Year, some modify or miss our bits of the Eucharistic Prayer, hold fewer services of communion never wear robes,and some have given up Confirmation. Less family resemblance between parishes and since we have more churches often shop around for the worship.style that suits them. In my life time an Anglican Identity has certainly become diluted as the C of E has… Read more »
I wondered about that reading Andrews’ article and his section no. 3 on Anglicanism as a liturgical tradition referencing HTB and all. Reading the many comments here on TA over time regarding liturgical life in the C of E and just the the characteristics you point out certainly raises questions about his assertion.
Evangelicals have enabled the Church of England to abolish itself. Thanks to them, only a remnant of faithful Anglicans exist. Thankfully, most of the nation ignores the sect the happy-clappys have created.
That’s untrue. There are so many reasons for the decline of the Church of England but the biggest is probably pride – the Church of England is terribly self-important.
How has self-importance abolished liturgy, the eucharist, the liturgical calendar and clerical attire? Anglicans once took pride in these things. Bigotry, not pride, has contributed to Anglicanism’s abolition.
But what about pride in justice, honesty and humility? The calendar, attire, tradition, etc are peripherals compared to the attitudes of heart towards both God and man – and sadly we don’t seem to see very much of the first three in this organisation’s behaviour of late. “Rend your hearts and not your garments.” Bigotry – yes, I’d agree with that. I’m as guilty of that as anyone else – the problem is that when you care very deeply about something you see as profoundly important, it can be only too easy to slide into negative views regarding people who… Read more »
The calendar, attire and tradition are not peripherals in defining a denomination. If these are abolished a Church becomes something else. It is not a question of having negative views about other people. Donald Trump has virtually abolished the Republican Party and created a new one. Evangelicals have done the same with the Church of England.
Sorry if this offends you, Father, but all three are totally peripheral to true faith. True faith is first and foremost a matter of the heart and its attitudes towards God. How it is expressed outwardly can and does vary quite considerably from one denomination to another. A great many good Christians get along very well without any of the things you mention – indeed, find them rather a nuisance and a hindrance. Indeed, vestments and rituals seem intended to perpetuate a gulf between the ‘priesthood’ and laity – when we are, all of us, kings and priests unto God.… Read more »
Our Lord was an observant Jew and wore ‘phylacteries and tassels,’ as you call them. In yesterday’s gospel, crowds were jostling to touch the tzitzit of his garments. He was called to read the parashah for the day in synagogue in several passages, almost certainly in classical Hebrew, and I dearly hope that you manage to clean the inside of your own cup before you condemn those you deem ritualists for not doing so.
Clerical attire are a manifestation of self-importance. Traditional liturgy is so much about the church – the argument now about changing adding liturgy show how precious much of the church is about its liturgy.
I don’t believe people – like nurses, judges, soldiers and police – who wear a uniform are expressing their self -importance. Clerical vestments have a theological significance designed to disguise the ego of the wearer. It is nonsense to say liturgy is “so much about the church” . The liturgy IS the Church . I cannot see how Mass, beautifully expressed, is “precious” except in the original meaning of that word.
The uniforms you mention identify the role of the wearer – in some roles it also represents their authority. For a lot of Christians, as I just hinted to Kate, clerical vestments have one perceived primary role – to drive a visual wedge between the body of ‘lay members’ and the ‘priests and teachers of the law’, etc – a hangover from the days of clerical political power when, by and large they were the educated elite of the day. (Tyndale had smething to say about that, too. Quite often, apparently, they weren’t. ) The church – that is the… Read more »
Lorenzo’s helpful comment (above) sets clerical vestments in context. Your claim that their prime purpose is to drive a “wedge” between clergy and laity is nonsense. Surely ordination is the rite which does this. Even evangelicals in the CofE have to be ordained if they wish to fulfil a ‘priestly’ role. Admittedly, their adoption of the requisite jeans and T-shirt tries to assert that ordination makes no difference and, like Jesus, the minister is just an ordinary, friendly bloke.
Replying not just to John, but to this entire discussion:
Vestments and liturgy provide a sense of ceremony and gravitas, just as a judge’s robes and specific wordings (“Oyez, oyez….”) do to a court proceeding. Must everything these days be as casual as a picnic lunch?
One of the virtues of the Anglican church I grew up in (the CofE) was the spread of worship/liturgical styles on offer. Not only do different people need different things, but they may grow and change. I have come to find high Anglicanism very helpful, but that was not always the case. And I know that complex ritual can make newcomers feel excluded. Not to mention the risk of the ritual becoming the end not the means. And of course it is much easier to offer a choice in a city rather than in scattered rural communities. But could we… Read more »
I think you are correct, Perry. I’ve been evangelical-ish all the years of my ministry; I’ve always been part of a small minority surrounded by a monolithic sea of liberal catholicism, and I’ve always followed the rubrics of the BCP or BAS, just not in a fussy or ritualistic way. Stephen Andrews and I were members of the Faith, Worship, and Ministry Committee of the Anglican Church of Canada 1998-2001. I remember attending a mass gathering of all the national committees with him half way through the triennium. We sat at the back of the room and listened to Michael… Read more »
Dave
4 months ago
I may be old fashioned but I have to say I find the item about the Archbishop of York very upsetting. Here is an Archbishop of the Church of England shown to be telling lies, or at best wilfully hiding information from those entitled to know.
I am sad as I had thought better of him than this. It does rather suggest he hasn’t the integrity to stand up to those who present him with false narratives.
For me it is also another very clear reason why bishops have to be more accountable, and much more transparent.
I am afraid it is even worse. The entire Archbishops’ Council were complicit in the lie.
When Boris Johnson (former UK prime minister) was found to have misled Parliament he was held to account. He resigned. Nobody expects Synod to hold anyone to account and archbishops are above honesty.
I think the word ‘liar’ is problematical including in this case. I’m not comfortable with it. I think the substance of the matter is the actual actions of the Archbishops’ Council. Whether the report back afterwards was deliberate lie, or oversight when stating facts, or erroneous recollection… what concerns me most is what they actually did to Survivors – vulnerable people already traumatised by the Church, who had just started to trust the highly-respected professionals put in place. Some members of the Archbishops Council were already gunning to have the ISB shut down back in November 2022, eight months before… Read more »
I’d also add: Why did the Archbishops’ Council not wait just two weeks to consult with the General Synod, share thoughts, and seek their input and approval? Instead, they acted unilaterally, as if they alone knew best. The impact on survivors, and trust in the Church, was dreadful. On June 7th, the two ISB members cited clause 21.2.2 of their contracts which provided for an independent mediator to be appointed to resolve the Dispute Notice, if parties could not agree. On June 12th, William Nye emailed AC members, informing them that an independent mediator would neither be effective nor timely.… Read more »
Susannah, I have detailed my case at the top of this thread. Suffice to say that I have raised the most serious concerns about 2 Diocesans & the then Acting Head of the NST actively withholding written evidence from the Makin Review & the Porter review into whether Justin would serve CDM on a Diocesan who sits in the Lords, & widespread deletion of substantial safeguarding material written to and from that Diocesan. More than 40 Bishops including 4 of the 5 most senior, the NST, and over half the AC have had the entire written evidence and all have… Read more »
Thank you Simon – I hope all this is brought to light in a forensic manner. Most importantly of all, everyone to do with the John Smyth events, both during his life and after, who suffered terrible harm, physically and psychologically, deserves ALL the facts about what was done, what people knew, what they did, and what they did not do. You’re right: I am always reluctant to call people liars until and unless I have access to the proof. But that doesn’t mean I’m wanting anything or anyone covered up. On the ‘Liar’ thing, I understood Gavin to be… Read more »
I don’t know the full story, but I wonder whether the question is how to hold William Nye to account, and archbishop Stephen was simply found out having trustingly read out the story given to him by Mr Nye.
Archbishop Stephen was present at a meeting with others at which a vote was taken and that vote was not unanimous. Every single person at the meeting must have known that it was not unanimous. Yet, every single person colluded in pretending that it had been unanimous. Every single person. Archbishop Stephen trustingly read out something he knew perfectly well to be a falsehood. Nobody will hold anybody to account because they are all in it together. Susannah, surely you cannot seriously imagine that every single one of them forgot that it hadn’t been unanimous, only discovering the fact upon… Read more »
I am sure I share with you a sense of dismay and a degree of revulsion at the events of May to July 2023. I’ve listed a number of issues where I suggest the conduct of the Archbishops’ Council was reprehensible really. With regard to the issue of Stephen Cottrell stating the decision to terminate was unanimous: I agree it’s hard to understand how that statement could have been asserted. Harder still to understand why not a single member of the Archbishops’ Council contradicted that on the day, or afterwards. With regard to being “present at the meeting with others… Read more »
“It’s hard to understand how that statement could have been asserted. Harder still to understand why not a single member of the Archbishops’ Council contradicted that on the day, or afterwards.”
Not really. Once you adjust your paradigm, it is perfectly easy to understand. But terribly, terribly sad for anyone who once trusted the Church, or who yearns for a Church to trust in.
I can almost hear conversations with members of the AC who voted against disbanding the ISB. So sorry it was presented as unanimous, entirely a misunderstanding I’m sure, anyhow it will be corrected at the next meeting *by the archbishop himself*. No need for you to say anything about it, there was no intention to minimise your contribution to the council, yes I understand it gave a misleading impression, very sorry, very sorry of course it goes without saying your contribution to the council is immensely valued, your voice is so important to take a different view. Puts phone down.… Read more »
I don’t think any of the Archbishops’ Council are evil. I do think they made some very bad mistakes which harmed vulnerable survivors when the ISB was shut down.
Picking up from David Hawkins and Dave above, I think the entire course of events regarding the disbanding of the ISB which has been played out in both York Synods displays the Church of England happily embracing the era of post truth- truth is what I say it is because I am powerful. I too find this totally shocking . I watched Gavin’s blog after I read it, and my dismay grew. Kate Keates earlier in the post talks about the C of E overcome by pride- I was overwhelmed by the overbearing smugness of the hierarchy at the synod.… Read more »
Maybe I’m soft at times. I don’t know. Or it might be incredulity. I just find it hard to believe that Stephen Cottrell deliberately set out to deceive, because it would be shattering if that was the case. I do honestly try to think the best of people, and I also think that sometimes conspiracy is attributed to things that are part of the shambles theory of the universe. I do have a fairly forensic mind, and I can see how wretched the overall actions of the Archbishops’ Council seem to me to have been. I would find it harder… Read more »
I understand where you’re coming from Susannah. Despite having become very cynical indeed about senior clergy (and indeed laity) in the Church over recent years, I still don’t think ++York sat down and thought about how he could cause damage to people, lie/mislead Synod, and do a multiplicity of other things that have contributed to harming both individuals and God’s Church. But I do see a combination of incompetence and weakness there through which he has allowed himself to be pulled into colluding with toxic cultures, systems and people, and indeed an overall shambolic organisation than spouts professionalised language but… Read more »
Abp Stephen is a joint President of the Archbishops’ Council. He shouldn’t need William Nye to tell him how the Council voted. He was part of it.
And, according to Abp Justin, both archbishops “wanted to wait” – strongly implying that they were amongst the four who voted against.
Francis James
3 months ago
Cottrell’s lying to synod is a bizarre tale, not least because he is a very bad liar. He referred to the decision being both ‘collective’ & ‘unanimous’, and this was recorded. By using both terms he made it very clear that this was not an error of the moment, he knew exactly what he was saying. Then he failed to use the Feb 2024 synod to apologise, & claimed at the July 2024 synod, twelve months on from the offence, that this minor error has just been brought to his attention. It’s almost as if he was not present at… Read more »
The latest issue of Private Eye indicates that Archbishop Welby has a good deal on his plate. If the article is correct there are some chickens about to come home to roost. After his retirement he may have to join Lord Sentamu in the ministerial wilderness. Telling lies to GS and the equivocation over the Smyth report are but two examples of archiepiscopal failings. The thing I find most irksome is that the bishops have used the sledgehammer of the CDM to pursue parish clergy over relatively minor misdemeanours and yet seem to be entirely above the law themselves.
I hope you get commission-I bought a copy with my shopping instead of waiting for my friend’s copy!
Let’s watch and see whether the Archbishop sues Private Eye….. but I suspect he won’t . The whole situation just gets worse.
If the Eye has publishable proof that J.W. assisted in keeping John Smyth in the lifestyle to which he had become accustomed then J.W. ought to resign now, or it will only get worse for all Anglicans. I suppose there’s no way he can be sacked? Can the Head of the Church do anything?
A member of General Synod can put forward a motion for debate with 100 supporting signatures. There was one quite recently calling for JW to resign but it seems to have lapsed.
Andrew Godsall
3 months ago
Stephen Andrews says that “The words of the trust may seem quaint and uncontentious to us, but in their day they were powerfully political.” I think I want to respond in two ways. Firstly the words strike me as entirely contentious. ‘Strictly Protestant and Evangelical principles’ is just one expression of Anglicanism. It by no means describes the character of Anglicanism in all its fullness. ’the thirty nine Articles interpreted in their plain natural sense’ is also a very contentious phrase today. The 39 Articles are very limited and the product of a very particular time. They are an historic… Read more »
Andrew: “‘Strictly Protestant and Evangelical principles’ is just one expression of Anglicanism. It by no means describes the character of Anglicanism in all its fullness. ’the thirty nine Articles interpreted in their plain natural sense’ is also a very contentious phrase today. The 39 Articles are very limited and the product of a very particular time. They are an historic formulary and give a snapshot of a particular time. There is nothing universal about them and to suggest that there is diminishes God.” Superb observations. Thank you. We diminish the Church of England and the work of the Holy Spirit, if… Read more »
‘“‘Strictly Protestant and Evangelical principles’ is just one expression of Anglicanism. It by no means describes the character of Anglicanism in all its fullness.’
I don’t think either Wycliffe College or its Anglo-Catholic counterpart on the other side of Hoskin Avenue, Trinity College, claims to represent Anglicanism in all its fulness. Each of them is aware (as is the whole Canadian church) that they represent one strand of the Anglican tradition.
“I don’t think either Wycliffe College or its Anglo-Catholic counterpart on the other side of Hoskin Avenue, Trinity College, claims to represent Anglicanism in all its fulness. “
Then why does Stephen write as he does: ‘In the last year of my tenure at Wycliffe College, and in the expectation that the college will remain true to its heritage, let me set out what I regard as Anglicanism’s distinctive marks:’ and then go on with the narrow context that Wycliffe represents?
Andrew, I’m mystified by your response to this article. Yes, Stephen began by quoting the original Wycliffe trust in its historical context—and I think he would agree that the trust was a creature of its time— but I don’t see the rest of the article as being especially controversial. In fact, I’d be hard pressed to find a single statement in this article that any Anglican, whether high church or low church, would have found contentious from 1549 until the advent of the Oxford Movement.
A very fair point. And after I posted, I also reflected on my own use of the blanket term ‘evangelical’ which as most of us here probably recognise includes both ‘conservative’ and ‘socially liberal’ expressions. Evangelical seems to mean different things to different people. But that adds to the underlying diversity of strands and expressions within a Broad Church. Moreover I believe even individuals may understand their faith as including aspects of evangelical, catholic, charismatic, social etc. But collectively we are One Church.
At the risk of being branded a fundamentalist isn’t this one of the key tests? ‘Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will’. Many of the comments on this platform sound to me like conforming to the pattern of this world.
There are good things in the world and bad things, and sometimes a person who is a Christian can learn from people who are atheist or agnostic. I’d say that Christian transformation and the renewal of our minds (obviously with the help of the Holy Spirit and Her interplay with our minds and consciences) is above all about opening our minds to the flow of God’s compassionate love, dying to self daily, and allowing that love to flow selflessly out to others. Surely, that is the heart of transformation? And if that sometimes aligns with the compassion and insights of… Read more »
Your mention of atheists and agnostics brought this to mind: There is a famous story told in Hasidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson. One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick,… Read more »
You are aware of the fact that Wycliffe College is situated across the road from Trinity College, right? It might be worth doing a little research into the history of those two institutions, and their relationship.
Hi Tim
Yes I’m aware. I’m commenting on what Stephen has written. He doesn’t provide the context you mention and quotes the trust, saying that today we find it uncontentious. Well, I’m disagreeing. For the reasons I have made clear. I’m not really sure what you are saying other than to agree that Stephen only identifies a particular part of a bigger whole. His writing doesn’t make it clear.
Tim, could you expand on your point? Andrew is right about the 39 stripes save one–period pieces. Artifacts. As for Trinity folks might research Eugene R. Fairweeather sometime of Trinity College (trin trin) at UT. One of the Canadian giants of the previous century Anglican theology.
Leaving alone the 39 Articles (the last refuge of – if not the scoundrel – the desperate), the claim that there’s ‘a family resemblance’ between Holy Brompton and All Saints Margaret Street is laughable. I all but choked on my cornflakes.
Lol. Your reply and a previous one by Perry Butler contests Andrews’ characterization. I think about the 39 articles every Maundy Thursday when we translate the blessed sacrament to the altar of repose, gazing upon it and carrying it about all the while.
Stephen would agree. ‘While the shape of modern liturgy has evolved to the extent that a congregational exchange between, say, Holy Trinity Brompton and All Saints Margaret Street might cause people to wonder if they actually belonged to the same church…’
+Stephen sees a common focus “in a rhythm of the frequent celebration of Holy Communion, and in the observance of a liturgical calendar.” HTB eucharistic? HTB liturgical? (HTB Anglican? some might say, but I’m not going there).
“(HTB Anglican? some might say, but I’m not going there).” Oh, let’s go there.I’m not at all sure that there is anything in the life of the HTB network that reflects any valuing of Anglican inheritance. I’m quite convinced that the only thing that keeps the HTB network in the C of E is the largesse of the Church Commissioners.
The ‘best boat to fish from’ ecclesiology – I wonder what the late +Stephen Sykes would have said about that.
My main gripe about HTB is its systemic and un-Anglican indifference to the rural church (maybe fed by the largesse you identify). When I teased two HTB network clergy with rural parishes in their benefices over this, their replies were remarkable only for an absence of either imagination or humility.
I have no information as to how often Holy Communion is celebrated at HTB. Do you?
I have some sympathy for your non-question about whether HTB is Anglican. I feel the same way about churches that are Roman Catholic in all but name. But of course, when you claim to be the established church for all English people, doesn’t it make sense to interpret the word ‘all’ as including ‘those for whom formal liturgy doesn’t work’? If you exclude those people, how are you the established church for all English people?
Defining ‘Anglican’, like writing history, is a moveable feast, hence I copped out.
However, if Establishment is to mean anything we must be inclusive, a church with a firm centre but soft margins, a church in which same sex couples can find a welcome, and – to be Anglican – a church which isn’t bound to one theory of the atonement.
The HTB network in including those for whom formal liturgy doesn’t work excludes in other ways – ways which, it seems to me, are more fundamental to the flourishing of ‘all sorts and conditions of man’.
‘The HTB network in including those for whom formal liturgy doesn’t work excludes in other ways – ways which, it seems to me, are more fundamental to the flourishing of ‘all sorts and conditions of man’.’ That would only be the case if the HTB network said that ALL C of E churches had to follow their approach. But I don’t see them saying that. It seems to me to be entirely reasonable that the national established church should make room for congregations that take an HTB approach as well as a more traditional or even extremely high Anglican approach.… Read more »
The world of HTB isn’t insisting that all C of E churches should be like them, but they exert an influence on the culture of the C of E which means that their way of doing things is becoming increasingly mainstream, and the strategic thinking of the C of E is increasingly based on the sorts of assumptions that HTB would make. More traditional expressions of Anglicanism are beginning to be regarded by many key people as a bit quaint and niche. I can’t imagine many current leaders of the C of E writing about Anglican Patrimony with the warmth… Read more »
You’ve stolen my answer, Fr! Although I would add that, among ‘the sorts of assumptions that HTB would make, are those which are irredeemably middle-class. For example, the promotion of a marriage prep course based on married Christian couples inviting engaged couples to dinner. This was met with incredulity in my old chapter, not only by clergy in estate parishes but also by those in traditional rural ones.
In my life time the traditions/ churchmanships within the C of E have moved further apart. Is there a firm centre anymore with catholic/ evangelical/ liberal as emphases on it ? Or are we becoming more the ” polo mint” church?
Would you judge this the inevitable outcome of the “national church for everyone” model of the present Church of England? In trying to avoid theological declarations of even a basic sort, it has instead promoted “good disagreement.” Once you go down this road, you do get lots of “disagreeing’ — HTB, no women priests AC, women priests AC, and the list goes on. I doubt this is what the 16th century ecclesia anglicana had in view. If it is important to declare the Articles ‘wrong and creatures of just that time’, it is also the case that having definitions was… Read more »
As a Yank, Christopher, you should recognize that this is precisely why our Constitution insists on a total disengagement of the state from religion. There can be no such thing as “a church for everyone” in a nation where the right to worship (or not worship) as one chooses is the law of the land.
The solution to this dilemma in England is, therefore, disestablishment.
You are commending a legal arrangement in the United States to me, on the topic of the state of affairs in the Church of England. A country where there is an established church. That makes no sense. If you want (once again) to promote a US style thing to your conferes across the sea, have at it. Leave me out. I am not your ‘yank’ ally in something for the purpose of this discussion. Much less one unaware of the obvious difference between the US and England when it comes to ecclesiology. I was asking a question of someone “in”… Read more »
And my point was that, since the UK–including England–now, by law, says that all people have a right to worship (or not) as they choose, the very concept of a national, established church “for everyone” will lead to the situation you describe—and that the way out of that situation is disestablishment.
It its inception, the polity of a church governed by the monarch was of course miles away from “a church of everyone.” It was illegal to be a Roman Catholic. Puritanism was not the Church of England. This for reasons of faith and practice. The argument could be made–you are making it–that the present Church of England has become something different and in consequence, disestablishment offers itself as a remedy. Others seem to hold to the view that the “church for everyone” idea is a good one. That what the Church of England has become, is workable and desirable. The… Read more »
I don’t know what ‘good disagreement’ is. But I do know that the history of the Church shows disagreement to be the norm – and conflict is a sign of vitality is it not. Maybe we shouldn’t be unduly panicked.
But surely in past centuries, when having definitions was thought important, that was only possible because those with the power could enforce the definitions, and those who disagreed could be ignored, excommunicated, imprisoned or executed depending on the context.
Nowadays such responses are no longer possible, and so we have no choice but to find ways of accommodating disagreement without killing each other.
Nowadays… So, it follows, ‘good disagreement’ as the identity marker of an established CofE soon to disappear into ‘national church’ miasme. Nowadays. I do not accept your premise, but in the present situation, it matters little. The CofE is on the ropes and nearing extinction. Your “surely in past centuries” musing is not going to change that. Either one sees this is a crisis, or one blogs and defends one’s favorite menu item. I am a church historian and theologian with a ‘long view.’ I do not accept your assertion. Mendicant orders (Franciscans and Domincans), with vows of poverty, Orders… Read more »
Back in the nineties Hans Kung said “There will be no peace between the civilizations without a peace between the religions. And there will be no peace between the religions without a dialogue between the religions.” His insight has obvious current applicability given the world scene . It also has applicability to Christianity within the context of current civil politics. It is relevant as well with regard to the in fighting in various Christian denominations. Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism both evidence intense polarization at present. Unfortunately the ‘good disagreement’ schtick tends to be advanced without addressing the power imbalances that… Read more »
Prior to his posting at Wycliffe, Stephen Andrews was bishop of the historically Anglo-Catholic diocese of Algoma. As principal, he presided several times at the very Anglo-Catholic parish of St Bartholomew’s, Regent Park, including at least one ordination. So I think he’s pretty comfortable across the breadth of Anglican tradition!
Daily Chapel worship at Wycliffe is traditional Morning Prayer and mid-week Eucharist with chanted psalm singing. Book of Common Prayer. Students are in placements all over Toronto, including Anglo-Catholic parishes. Trinity College across the street is an undergraduate institution with a lovely campus, and a very small divinity component. I am unaware of older historic tensions and disagreements having much place today, given Trinity’s life inside the University of Toronto, and the counterparts in undergraduate residential education. I’m not sure how many divinity students it registers, but Wycliffe has been much larger during my time there. Wycliffe is not an… Read more »
I am glad to hear that the BCP has been revived at Wycliffe. In my days as an occasional visitor from across the road, chanted psalms at the Wednesday Eucharist would have been unheard of.
Stephen Andrews had a gig here in my diocese as curate at St. Paul’s, Halifax. It bills itself as the oldest protestant church in ‘British North America’. Its tradition is old school evangelical, though perhaps less overtly as of late. Andrews is a conservative. Old St. P was once ‘north end’ with a rector from England who refused to wear a cassock under his sarum surplice and scarf. I once asked the guy who folowed him if they were still north end and his reply was ” we are sort of north by north west”. Lol We had a trend… Read more »
Yes, that trend was helped by nearby St Thomas’s, Huron Street, having a Wycliffe alumnus as long-time rector, and by Victoria Matthews sending most of her postulants there.
Interesting. Did not know that tidbit about Matthews. Was that while she was suffragan in T.O.? Theology students should be able to study at their instituion of choice. Plus I have long thought the M. Div. Degree ( I have one) has too much of a market share in the mimistry education racket in Canada.
When Bishop Victoria was our bishop in Edmonton she sent most of her postulants to Wycliffe. When she resigned from Edmonton diocese she was bishop in residence at Wycliffe for an academic year.
I experienced Bishop Victoria as a committed Anglo-Catholic with a true respect and appreciation for the diversity of Anglicanism. Case in point: when the first edition of my book ‘Starting at the Beginning’ was published by Anglican Book Centre in 2004, she wrote the foreword for it and promoted it vigorously in our diocese, even though it clearly came from a more evangelical position than hers.
She (Victoria Matthews) was of course Bishop of Christchurch NZ from 2008-2018, during which period the earthquakes occurred and her cathedral was destroyed. Father Ron Smith could, I am sure, have added to this post.
Yeah I was thinking about that when i read the article by Peter Carrell on the other thread. And yes Fr. Ron of blessed memory. Really liked his wisdom. He used the Pauline phrase “en Christo” a lot.
A possessive pronoun refers to the last mentioned person of relevant gender. The choirboy was proud of his cathedral. However I was being facetious. Obviously the blame for the Earthquake must lie even higher than dean or bishop.
Similarly, a town or city might be ‘proud of its cathedral’. But a bishop has been legally installed in his or her cathedral, giving the possessive pronoun greater significance.
Correct. She was a close friend of Wycliffe, its faculty and Dean. She was in residence for a time. Followed by Fleming Rutledge. I’m sure she appreciated our commitment to BCP worship and our academic standards. Rusty Reno declared our PhD program among the top institutions in North America. We had a very good crop of PhD students for two decades. It is now a new generation of faculty. I have only two more to wrap up my supervisions.
I wish Stephen Andrews had reflected on the words “catholic” (universal – the CofE makes a universal claim in its Canons) and “living” (the link is to a blog with the word in the name) as well as those he has chosen. In particular, to use “reformed” without using “catholic” in some way feels too much like a party play rather than a broad appreciation. In my time in my current parish, I have had two Wycliffe people as colleagues – both have added substantially to the breadth and reach of ministry. Two of our members were ordained Deacon at… Read more »
The teaching of ‘The Alliance’, GSFA, and Gafcon is that gay people who engage in sex are not going to be saved. That’s why they call it a ‘salvation’ issue. I am not really clear how a ‘relational’ solution is sustained, if you tell lesbian and gay people that they will not be saved when they die because their sexual intimacy is sin and abomination to God. I ‘get’ that people’s sincere individual conscience should be accepted in the Church, but I really don’t see how you can institutionalise a whole new Province which locks out most gay couples as… Read more »
I doubt the C of E makes a claim to be universal in its canons. After all there are the Welsh, Scots and Irish to consider. Not to mention overseas. The C of E claims to be part of the universal Church. Not to actually be the universal church.
Indeed. Part of . It therefore recognises contra Rome and the Orthodox that schism is within the Church catholic not from it and so catholicity doesn’t depend on full communion within its parts
Susannah Clark
3 months ago
Stephen: ‘the Reformation is itself an outcome of Bible reading. It is grounded in the conviction that Holy Scripture is “God’s Word written” ‘ But what precisely did the Reformers back then mean by ‘God’s Word written’ and what does it mean to us (variously) today in the Church of England or the Church of Canada? Is the Bible a portal through which we may open to the Holy Spirit and encounter Jesus? Or is it, in itself, God contained and conclusive in each verse? Is it a conduit that helps us open and connect with God? Or is it,… Read more »
‘The reformers were still emerging from the middle ages.’ Chronological snobbery? Grace Hamman’s recent book ‘Jesus through Medieval Eyes: Beholding Christ with the Artists, Mystics, and Theologians of the Middle Ages’ is brilliant and heart-warming. C.S. Lewis was also primarily a medievalist. I love his insight that the only way to avoid the blind spots of our own age is to regularly read people from different times than our own. To acknowledge that the folks in the middle ages knew a lot less science than us is obviously true. but to assume that a theological idea is suspect just because… Read more »
“Chronological snobbery?” Hardly, Tim. That is a bit of bumper sticker. I’m just adverting to historical, and for that matter, cultural context. Ideas evolve. For example, I appreciate Aquinas tremendously, the very icon of the medieval synthesis, a debt owed to Jewish and Islamic philosophers, which then eventually collapses. The heirs are 20th & 21st century transcendental Thomists. Besides, here I am pitching readings from The Shepherd of Hermas. (see my previous free standing comment). My God, I crack myself up some times I’m so conservative. lol. But remember the Neil Young lyric, Tim : “It’s easy to get buried… Read more »
Right. Pope Pius V proclaimed St. Thomas Aquinas as a Doctor of the Church on 15 April 1567, and ranked his feast with those of the four great Latin Fathers: Ambrose, Augustine, Jerome and Gregory. At the Council of Trent, Thomas had the honor of having his Summa Theologiae placed on the altar alongside the Bible and the Decretals. This happened within the historical timeframe of the “second scholasticism,” a trend during the 16th and 17th centuries that saw renewed interest in the works of scholars of the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries, in spite of humanism as a contrary trend. Second… Read more »
I am well acquainted with the journey of the ‘angelic doctor’ etc. You missed completely the point of my reply to Tim which followed from my earlier reply to Susannah Clark. Your knee jerk reaction suggests so. I am noting the tension between so called ‘discrete’ historical periods and the historian’s view of how these periods on the other hand may evolve one from another. ( see link). Piety and hagiography do not obviate the collapse of the medieval synthesis.
Everyone is entitled to favorite opinions. The facts are as stated. Thomas’ portrait was not placed on the altar at the mediaeval Council of Trent; the Summa was. Indeed much of the debate over the canon entailed how his work was being received. The authors cited about were mediaeval thomists, Cajetan playing a major role vis-a-vis Martin Luther. So-called “transcendental Thomism” is a modern sub-set of the legacy of Thomas, vastly overshadowed by the Dominican heritage of the summa at the Angelicum, for example. Or the French school interested in Thomas through historical lenses. Or those trained under the scholasticism… Read more »
This is all very well ; but all beside the point. None of it relates to the collapse of the medieval synthesis as matter of factual analysis. The legacy of Thomism after its collapse in Catholicism and elsewhere, and from the end of the middle ages down to present day, is a separate issue and one which simply evidences and is a consequence of the collapse itself. I began reading Aquinas and Jacques Maritain in Catholic high school. One of my undergraduate profs studied directly with Ratzinger for his Ph.D., the conservative “teenager” of Vatican II. (Have you read Gaudium… Read more »
The germ of this disagreement may be traceable to your statement in which Thomas and “a debt owed to Jewish and Islamic philosophers” does service for a ‘mediaeval synthesis”. My point has been that there is an ongoing appreciation and indeed deference to Thomas throughout the mediaeval period, including second scholasticism in the 16th and 17th centuries. Your sentence could be read as denying that, or obscuring it. 500 years is a long time. I am in no doubt of your affection for Lonergan — who holds something totalizing in your thinking akin to the Summa for Dominicans of a… Read more »
The idea that Thomist scholasticism evaporated until the 20th century, then to be found in “Transcendental Thomism,” is to say it again, weird. Thomas isn’t at the “end of the Middle Ages” as you just stated it. You omit to mention “second scholasticism” at the end of the Middle Ages, as noted above.
If there is anyone who speaks as categorically about matters like this, I’d like to know who they are.
I just think it is hard for you to be called out on matters in error. One doesn’t need to have an advanced degree to do that.
One of the realities of having trained PhD students for four decades is that you must live in a world of constant external scrutiny from high level scholars. That isn’t your world. A bright guy who likes to read and offer strong opinions on a blog knows nothing of this formal world of intellectual push-back. That’s fine. But the projecting is your own.
Never said I did. I’ve made it clear many times here I’m not an academic. Your rejoinder alas is the inevitable disparaging comment that characterizes your default position when you appear to become frustrated with people who see things differently than you. You are no doubt a competent OT scholar and knowledgeable about the various hermeneutical approaches of historical theologians. However, once your opinions begin to move beyond the circumscribed area of your expertise they become increasingly debatable and tendentious. As far as I can tell, simply from your rejoinders on this thread, you don’t really have a grasp on… Read more »
All very erudite, but when someone replies to a statement about the beliefs of the reformers with the counter-statement ‘the reformers were still emerging from the middle ages’ (which, by the way, is every bit as ‘bumper sticker; as C.S. Lewis’ chronological snobbery line, which I was quoting), the obvious inference is ‘;and therefore we can’t take their beliefs seriously.’ If that’s not what you meant, then i apologize, but I then have absolutely no idea what you did mean.
It isn’t what I meant Tim. Thanks for the opportunity to say so. I was simply trying to point out that some of the early reformers were in some ways medieval men, and that needs to be taken into account when reading them. My mistake of omission was perhaps commenting too briefly to Susannah Clark.
“were in some ways medieval men” — I’d call that an advantage measured against the sloppy thinking and poor control of philosophy in much late modernity.
Are the books of the Apocrypha part of the Bible or not? I don’t really care about the answer but the important point is that Christians don’t even all agree on what books are, or are not, in the Bible. The logical inference is that not all books of the Bible have the same status. So when you ask whether the Bible is God’s word or commentary I think you are oversimplifying so much that the question cannot be answered. Instead we should ask that question of each book of the Bible separately and not try to generalise. Personally, for… Read more »
Jerome set (what Sixtus of Siena first called) the ‘deuterocanonical’ books (books never originally in Hebrew) in a separate category and declared them useful for edification (what he called ‘apocrypha’). Anglicans have followed Jerome (see the dreaded 39 Articles). The church catholic lived with the divergence between the Florentine list (also at times called Augustine’s list) and the ‘helmeted preface’ of Jerome, and said it was an ‘open matter.’ Even at Trent, there was clear awareness of distinctions between kinds of books (variously called Canonical and Ecclesiastical or Doctrinal and Moral, etc) but not some idea of ‘canon within a… Read more »
Certainly an academic theologian is likely to have greater insight than I. If only the Church of England taught that different books have various statuses.
Depends who you ask. There are academics who are friendly to your point of view too. (see below). In a previous thread I adverted to R.C. scholar Raymond Brown’s magisterial, The Death of the Messiah. He has a chapter on the non-canonical Gospel of Peter–because his project required it. ‘ The church’ has been is by passed on the matter increasingly. I referenced in a previous thread the book, The Making of the Bible by Konrad Schmid and Jens Schroter.( trans. by Peter Lewis). This is from their chapter, The Formation of the Christian Bible. “Even today, then, there is… Read more »
I was responding to a comment that did not raise the issue of non-canonical books, but the apocrypha and the different classification of canonical books.
I am very sympathetic to the concerns raised in Kate’s comment. The comment offered the opportunity to segue to a wider conversation –one that is not controlled or limited by ecclesiastical decisions past or present–one that is being enabled by professional scholars writing highly successful books for the popular reader. It’s a blog. So that is how we roll, or should I say that is how we troll. lol. lol.
Kate, I hope the comment was helpful. The Church of England has followed in belief and in practice the position of Jerome. “And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following: The Third Book of Esdras The Fourth Book of Esdras The Book of Tobias The Book of Judith The rest of the Book of Esther The Book of Wisdom Jesus the Son of Sirach Baruch the Prophet The Song of the Three Children The… Read more »
It is very helpful when people like you and Rory Gillis include links for further reading as follow-up. Please post a link to your paper at the Angelicum. Access to such things can be difficult. Although I am a retired academic (not in theology), I no longer have access to an academic library.
Dear Mr Lamont, I am happy to do that. It is moving from oral address to print publication, or from 3500 to 7000 words. In general, Beryl Smalley’s The Study of the Bible in the Middle Ages is still regarded as a gold standard. Your local purveyor of books (Amazon, etc) will send it to you in timely fashion. I am happy to provide other titles. The modern fascination with ‘non-canonical books’ — like a lot of things modern — has lent itself to tribalism in the NT guild. Some for whom this is all passe and not useful (to… Read more »
Addendum: Frans van Liere, The Mediaeval Bible (Cambridge, 2014). Richard Gameson, The Early Medieval Bible (Cambridge, 1994). The Brill volume on The Deuterocanonical Books has a very clear essay by Edmun Gallagher on “The Latin Bible.” Gallagher forwarded me a PDF of his essay. Often authors will do this. Augustine has several places where he discusses the canon (Letters to Jerome; City of God). He modifies his position over time concerning The Hebrew Verity. The Church Catholic lived with the two accounts of the canon vis-a-vis the soi-disant apocrypha until Trent (though see John O’Malley, Trent Harvard, 2013). On this… Read more »
Was it video recorded? The Gregorian has done that from time to time. It gives you the Q & A which is often insightful. Back In June there was notice here about the conference below in a comment by Dr. Christina Beardsley. (TA June 8th). Be interesting to have the proceedings of that as well.
Well I do disagree Kate, but you make a good point about the Apocrypha, and also that each author should be read and understood in their own specific context. Even within individual books of the Bible, I think the authors may sometimes get things right, and sometimes less so. To me, the question above all is: yes, but when I read a passage in the Bible does it open my heart to awareness of God, to God’s grace, to the flow of God’s Love. I’m afraid passages like the ones where (allegedly) God “commanded” the Israelites to carry out slaughter… Read more »
I appreciate your strong connection to the biblical text, something you have expressed on numerous occasions. Without wishing to argue the point, I’d simply like to quote the late David Burrell who noted that among the Abrahamic religions, Christian revelation is not in a book, not even the NT, but in a person. (link). I think belief in God is not provable but defensible. Once one has established that, I would argue that the historical Jesus, like each of us, is a random result of history but one upon which the divine alighted. He was a kind of walking taking… Read more »
What I liked in the few minutes after that section was the way the speaker differentiated between the witness of love, and the witness to ideology. If Christianity becomes a stand-off between ideologies, or if one group of Christians is characterised and defined by its ideologies, and the need to conform to those ideologies at all costs… then it gets ripped apart, it shows the world ideas, but it distracts from showing the world the person of Jesus. I believe what people find most relevant about Christianity is when it becomes relevant to them, because of the ubiquitous need for… Read more »
Somewhere in there Burrell distinguishes between an ‘ideology’ and a ‘tradition’. His reckoning is that traditions are open to criticism/self-criticism whereas ideologies are not. A Celtic tradition talks about ‘thin places’. I thought if there can be thin places, why not ‘thin persons’ as it were. I like that as a metaphor for Jesus. And of course it works for saints as well. Your point about love is right on. I often think of Lonergan adverting to Romans, that lovely phrase about the love of God flooding our hearts through the Holy Spirit that is given to us. Religion, all… Read more »
Kate, you may find this article of interest. It is recent and open access. Simon Dawson if you are reading this the article mentions the Didache in passing.
Oh dear. Have I become that predictable? But there is one linking theme between the Didache and your fascinating discussion about the canon, and that is the question “who gets to choose? Where does authority lie?” To me the Didache is fascinating as it speaks to the question how were bishops chosen in the early church. It provides evidence that at times the people chose the bishops for themselves, rather than the people having their bishops chosen for them by other bishops. The same question applies when it comes to the Christian canon, a list of those texts that we… Read more »
No more predictable than me. My friends tell me, “Don’t ever play poker.” lol. But seriously, I linked the article from Cambridge Press because in it the author in section 3, Constructing the NT, touches on the issue of core texts and peripheral texts while reviewing Eusebius from a historical perspective. I thought that may be of some interest to someone who is asking about possibility of varying degrees of ‘status’ among NT books—which I take to be something like the old question of a Canon within a Canon. The issue is also connected to a wider question about the… Read more »
Thanks Rod, I fully support your scholarship and post, and the need to understand the historical background to the canon. But part of that understanding is to understand not just why the non canonical books are of interest now, but why were they suppressed or regarded as unreliable back then. And that can lead us to giving value to a book now that was labelled unreliable then. As always it is all about power, and who has the power to do the labelling, and why. I think the phrase is “a hermeneutic of suspicion”. I have no problem with the… Read more »
I think my reply on the subject of liturgy and your comment here may have passed one another in the ether. In any event I am only seeing it now. Regarding your your second paragraph Francis Watson covers that in the section, Constructing the NT. What I take away is, some of those books were ‘known’ i.e. they were being read on par with what became canonical books, and they were popular. Now that is an interesting dynamic regarding authority!
Your second last paragraph. I agree. You better exactly what I was attempting to raise as well.
Sorry, to clarify for readers. “Apocrypha and noncanonical books” belong to different registers. The former have, morever, been rostered within the orders of the other canonical books by “those following Augustine” in the church catholic. Or labeled “deuterocanonical.” They have been read in the assembly (also for Anglicans), and church Fathers (e.g. Aquinas) cite them (Wisdom and Sirach) in the course of their writings. Non-canonical works are as the word says it. Pseudepigraphical is the common term. More recently ‘parabiblical’ (if you want to include non biblical texts at Qumran, e.g.). To the best of my knowledge “progressive” churches have… Read more »
I am tempted to say “thanks Captain obvious”; but perhaps some readers may appreciate your ‘clarification’. As I pointed out, I wanted to broaden the conversation. The article I linked by Francis Watson from Cambridge University Press has an interesting conclusion: “A text set in a canonical context – the fourfold gospel, the Pauline or Catholic letter collection – is no longer the same entity as it once was during its pre-canonical phase, when it may have been read alongside texts that will eventually become ‘apocryphal’ or ‘heretical’ as they are passed over in the process of canon-formation. Those texts too were… Read more »
Just a wee follow up to our conversation. My introduction to the Didache was via liturgical studies. Below is a citation from American liturgist Marion J. Hatchett. Leapfrogging from that, I see that the introduction to the Canadian Rite notes that Eucharistic Prayer 2 is modelled on the Apostolic tradition of Hippolytus (c. 215) and EP1 is rooted in the Apostolic Constitutions VIII. ( Book of Alternative Services, Canada p.179).Indirectly the liturgical life of the church prior to the construction of the NT Canon reminds us that canon is a product of the church, the church is not a product… Read more »
Exactly right Rod, and to me the Didache is useful in giving evidence of how the church operated (in one specific location) before: “the elaboration of the liturgy, more theological definition within rites, strict regulation of the functions of various orders of ministry, and the establishment of fixed written texts.” It helpfully destabilises those things that certain people (mentioning no names) argue are fixed and unchangeable. I don’t know what your liturgical studies teacher said about the Didache Eucharist section, but I find it interesting for two things, firstly it affirms lay presidency, and secondly it references the feeding of… Read more »
To repeat, feel free to read it aloud, or any other text for that matter, in your church. When I was on the Hermeneia Board, Helmut Koester was always keen to have as many parabiblical texts as possible printed. The practice at Fortress Press was to have yellow jacket covers for OT, and Red for NT. When 4 Ezra came out, they opted for Yellow with a red dot. And so he broke the bottle on this particular sailing frigate. One day the Press heads came to Cambridge and sat in Frank Cross’ tidy home and said, printing the pseudepigraphal… Read more »
Sounds like a creative solution. I’ve been at a few Eucharists with lay presidency, and participated in Communion services in reformed churches. I’ve always felt that the presence of Jesus’ is ‘real’ across the board. And! Sometimes ecumenical groups working on their own steam, sorting things together, can arrive at very meaningful liturgies. Getting back to the very original question about this shape of the canon and that, as I’ve mentioned here numerous times, I was raised Roman Catholic. I studied old testament while still a Catholic doing my B.A. at an ostensibly ‘Catholic’ university. It never occurred to me… Read more »
Rod (Rory) Gillis
3 months ago
I’ve attached a list of titles re: noncanonical books below. Popular subject. Several options. Lots of reviews. Anyone who is a keener can put the titles or authors in their search engine. Here is a brief quote from the noncanonical, The Shepherd of Hermas. It rivals some of the more problematic passages we find in the canonical scriptures here and there. There are now spiffy editions available; but I am citing what I have on hand on my shelf, and old edition: Early Church Classics, SPCK, 1903, Rev. C. Taylor, D.D.,LL.D. “Keep Thyself then from from quick temper, that most… Read more »
Thank you for posting a link to my blog.
After I posted it on X, I was sent a link to this post: https://www.anglicanfutures.org/post/the-need-for-correction-at-general-synod
I’m not the first, or only, one to have reached the same conclusions.
I have copied, pasted and expanded the comment I made on the AF site, at the time of the original article several weeks ago: Such behaviour is entirely typical of the Church hierarchy as regards historic safeguarding and cases of historic church-related abuse. Both Archbishops, 4 out of the 5 most senior Bishops, more than 40 Bishops in total and more than half the Archbishops Council, the NST, Lambeth & Bishopthorpe have all been aware for ages (and all personally have the written evidence) that 2 Diocesan Bishops in the Southern Province who have been friends for decades since their… Read more »
For any who may be interested, some of these issues were explored in much greater length 5 months or so ago:
https://nickhoward76.medium.com/scandalous-justice-cb3d940b575f
The lack of a proper path to resolution in this case is further proof of why the current CofE leadership is unfit to be trusted with Safeguarding. It is fair neither to the complainant nor to those he complains of, to have this matter linger. It has been going on for years. There is a presumption of innocence and a duty on the complainant to make their case to the requisite standard of proof – and there is a duty upon the Church to provide a genuinely impartial and independent context within which such issues can be judged. The current… Read more »
Gavin’s account can also be found in video form, here https://youtu.be/tzF2hPh32Iw?si=bdI_fXjx1md1uOB2
Stephen Andrews claims that Anglicanism is ‘the result of a Roman Catholic mission to the British Isles in the 7th century.‘ However, the English Church has existed since earlier times, evidenced by the presence of English bishops at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century.
That’s why we don’t need to seek approval from the Bishop of Rome before ordaining women or blessing same-sex marriages
“”The English Church”? Hmm. Don’t overlook Celtic Church history in these islands. That’s a classic and annoying English blindspot. To refer to 4th century English bishops seems anachronistic.
England did not exist before King Alfred the Great who united the Anglo Saxon Tribes against Dane Law in the 9th Century. The earliest church in these islands was the Romano British Christian Church who probably had Bishops and predated the Celtic Church. St Patrick’s parents were Romano British. Following St Augustine’s mission the Anglo Saxon kings adopted Roman Catholicism over both the Romano British and Celtic Churches because St Peter ‘held the keys of heaven’ . Anglicanism seems to me to reach back to reclaim something of the English Church and English culture that was lost after the Norman… Read more »
I can’t agree with your final lines, Adrian. Like many other people, I am descended from Alfred the Great, and as a family historian I can show every single generation from him to me, my children, and my grandchildren. Indeed, I am positive tens or hundreds of thousands of people can do the same as my tree has over 1000 living descendants of Alfred for a start!
That’s awesome, Susannah! Through which of Alfred’s children?
LOL! Alfred the Great Edward the Elder Edmund I Edgar the Peaceful Ethelred the Unready Edmund Ironside Edward the Exile St Margaret of Scotland David I of Scotland Earl Henry Prince of Scotland David Earl of Huntingdon His daughter Isabella Robert Bruce of Annandale Robert Bruce King Robert the Bruce Marjorie Bruce King Robert II of Scotland Robert III of Scotland James I of Scotland Princess Annabella Stewart Alexander Gordon, 3rd Earl of Huntley Alexander Gordon, 1st of Strathavon Alexander Gordon, 2nd of Strathavon Janet Gordon, heiress of Strathavon Alexander Gordon, 3rd of Birkenburn James Gordon, 4th of Birkenburn Alexander… Read more »
Gosh, Margaret of Scotland, too! Patron saint of my last parish in Edmonton, and someone I admire greatly.
Yes, he is my 32nd great grandfather.
Weirdly he is my 32nd great grandfather too 🙂
Hello cousin.
And, from the Medieval bunker, I would suggest that it should be King Æthelstan who should be regarded as the first King of the English
Yes the vital missing word from my last line was ‘patrilineal’. It is rumoured that all Europeans are descended from Charlemagne, so greetings to you all.
Ah! Now that makes all the difference! To have an uninterrupted patrilineal line of descent going back that far would be far less likely.
Of course, that sets me thinking about the claimed patrilinear descent from Abraham (Matthew’s gospel) and Adam (Luke’s gospel). Frankly, the claim of patrilinear descent from Adam is about as likely as me claiming patrilinear descent from King Arthur.
I don’t think we ave the evidence for Nicaea, but definitely at the council of Arles in 314AD, which is even earlier.
No English bishops at these councils of the Church. The ancestors of the English were still living in Germany at that time.
I agree. Significant Anglo-Saxon settlement in what would later become England only really began in the 5th Century (apart from possibly some 4th Century Roman deployment of Saxon mercenaries as the Roman Empire started to unravel). The remnants of the Romano-British Christianity seem to have been driven westwards as ‘pagan’ Germanic settlers gained domination in much of England. From the western parts the remnant Church seems to have developed in some degree of isolation from Rome, adopting some different practices (eg date of Easter) and some assimilation with the Celtic traditions and spirituality, such that the remnant Church in the… Read more »
It might be misleading to consider the “remnant church” driven into the west as being isolated from the European mainland.
There was extensive maritime trade and contact up and down the Atlantic seabord linking Britain with the French and Spanish west coast, and even into the Mediterranean. There is even some evidence of a tin trade linking Cornwall and Phoenicia in the first century CE. And who knows what mission activity followed the trade.
The mainstream routes into and out of “Britain” were not limited to the Dover strait and the North sea.
That’s a very fair point. It’s the degree of assimilation of Celtic spirituality within the Irish/Scottish Christianity that I find particularly interesting. (For example the Irish goddess Brigid and the claimed first female saint in Ireland, also Brigid – an example perhaps of the mother goddess being appropriated by the early Christians in Ireland.) I also find the acute references to nature in the early texts interesting, as there was a strong concept in Celtic spirituality of the earth goddess and rulers’ need to live in good relationship with her. And St Brigid’s saint day ‘co-incides’ with the Celtic feast… Read more »
It’s not just Cornwall. The Great Orme copper mine was of European importance through the Bronze Age.
Perhaps I could make a pitch for the first people to be called English were the Hwicce Anglo Saxons formed by a mixture of Celts, Romano British, Anglo Saxons and Germans residing in todays Worcestershire, Gloucestershire and part of Warwickshire. A surprising amount of Anglo Saxon and Norman history is focused on this western corner of England suggesting the Hwicce influence was significant up to and including the reformation in England. Rather than resisting invading armies they seem to have cooperated with them and thus assimilated different cultures from Roman times onwards and in so doing evolved into a more… Read more »
It is often said though that when the Romans invaded they fought the Ancient Britons and according to Wikipedia dates back to the Iron Age.
And where were the ancestors of black Englishmen living? Or don’t black lives matter?
This was the Celtic church, not English. There were representatives from Britain at the Council of Arles but they were not English. They hadn’t arrived yet in Britain.
Well, I never said they were English.
“The Celtic church” – was that an entity. I get confused between Saxon churches, Celtic etc. Are they distinct or simply how people of later centuries described them.
I think there is a lot of modern celtic twilight romanticism about the way people re-imagine ‘the Celtic Church’ but there was at least a very real network of Christians in Ireland and Western Scotland, with many cells and archaeological remains, literature handed down, monastic traditions, place-names etc. I suspect the Christianisation of Ireland and the West of Scotland involved a good deal of amalgamation/assimilation with existing Celtic faith, folk tradition, accompanied by the conversion of people in power. Where part of my family lives (and where I spent formative years) – the Kilmartin Valley – you see stone circles… Read more »
Priests pray several times a day to the God of Love so how come from this process results in so little love in their hearts ? Words can be very cheap. We expect clergy to practice what they preach but over and over again this doesn’t happen. As Bishop Cherry Vann has pointed out the real test of Christian love is if it applies to opponents and people you may heartily dislike or find inconvenient. The stakes could not be higher. If we can’t even trust an Archbishop to tell the truth is it any wonder that church membership is… Read more »
If they cannot be trusted when they speak of Earthly things, who shall believe them when they speak of Heavenly things.
Stephen Andrews’ “distinctive marks of Anglicanism” overlooks a very important one i.e. its essential colonial and now post colonial nature. It is an odd thing to overlook when writing from a Canadian context–especially as noted that Wycliffe was founded when we were the Church of England in Canada. . None the less the article prompted a morning smile. In a stream of consciousness moment his take on things reminded me of the old song by soprano Jeannette MacDonald, Isn’t It Romantic (link). The link is to the 1932 ‘orthophonic’ recording for the listening pleasure of the ‘orthodox’ among us.
https://youtu.be/tWV72WD4Y70
I suspect the Canadian Church isn’t as liturgically diverse as the C of E has become. Trad Cath parishes here are mostly Roman rite, and many Evangelical parishes often don’t use the lectionary, rarely keep much of the Liturgical Year, some modify or miss our bits of the Eucharistic Prayer, hold fewer services of communion never wear robes,and some have given up Confirmation. Less family resemblance between parishes and since we have more churches often shop around for the worship.style that suits them. In my life time an Anglican Identity has certainly become diluted as the C of E has… Read more »
I wondered about that reading Andrews’ article and his section no. 3 on Anglicanism as a liturgical tradition referencing HTB and all. Reading the many comments here on TA over time regarding liturgical life in the C of E and just the the characteristics you point out certainly raises questions about his assertion.
Evangelicals have enabled the Church of England to abolish itself. Thanks to them, only a remnant of faithful Anglicans exist. Thankfully, most of the nation ignores the sect the happy-clappys have created.
That’s untrue. There are so many reasons for the decline of the Church of England but the biggest is probably pride – the Church of England is terribly self-important.
How has self-importance abolished liturgy, the eucharist, the liturgical calendar and clerical attire? Anglicans once took pride in these things. Bigotry, not pride, has contributed to Anglicanism’s abolition.
But what about pride in justice, honesty and humility? The calendar, attire, tradition, etc are peripherals compared to the attitudes of heart towards both God and man – and sadly we don’t seem to see very much of the first three in this organisation’s behaviour of late. “Rend your hearts and not your garments.” Bigotry – yes, I’d agree with that. I’m as guilty of that as anyone else – the problem is that when you care very deeply about something you see as profoundly important, it can be only too easy to slide into negative views regarding people who… Read more »
The calendar, attire and tradition are not peripherals in defining a denomination. If these are abolished a Church becomes something else. It is not a question of having negative views about other people. Donald Trump has virtually abolished the Republican Party and created a new one. Evangelicals have done the same with the Church of England.
Sorry if this offends you, Father, but all three are totally peripheral to true faith. True faith is first and foremost a matter of the heart and its attitudes towards God. How it is expressed outwardly can and does vary quite considerably from one denomination to another. A great many good Christians get along very well without any of the things you mention – indeed, find them rather a nuisance and a hindrance. Indeed, vestments and rituals seem intended to perpetuate a gulf between the ‘priesthood’ and laity – when we are, all of us, kings and priests unto God.… Read more »
Our Lord was an observant Jew and wore ‘phylacteries and tassels,’ as you call them. In yesterday’s gospel, crowds were jostling to touch the tzitzit of his garments. He was called to read the parashah for the day in synagogue in several passages, almost certainly in classical Hebrew, and I dearly hope that you manage to clean the inside of your own cup before you condemn those you deem ritualists for not doing so.
Clerical attire are a manifestation of self-importance. Traditional liturgy is so much about the church – the argument now about changing adding liturgy show how precious much of the church is about its liturgy.
I don’t believe people – like nurses, judges, soldiers and police – who wear a uniform are expressing their self -importance. Clerical vestments have a theological significance designed to disguise the ego of the wearer. It is nonsense to say liturgy is “so much about the church” . The liturgy IS the Church . I cannot see how Mass, beautifully expressed, is “precious” except in the original meaning of that word.
The uniforms you mention identify the role of the wearer – in some roles it also represents their authority. For a lot of Christians, as I just hinted to Kate, clerical vestments have one perceived primary role – to drive a visual wedge between the body of ‘lay members’ and the ‘priests and teachers of the law’, etc – a hangover from the days of clerical political power when, by and large they were the educated elite of the day. (Tyndale had smething to say about that, too. Quite often, apparently, they weren’t. ) The church – that is the… Read more »
Lorenzo’s helpful comment (above) sets clerical vestments in context. Your claim that their prime purpose is to drive a “wedge” between clergy and laity is nonsense. Surely ordination is the rite which does this. Even evangelicals in the CofE have to be ordained if they wish to fulfil a ‘priestly’ role. Admittedly, their adoption of the requisite jeans and T-shirt tries to assert that ordination makes no difference and, like Jesus, the minister is just an ordinary, friendly bloke.
Oh, bless you, Kate. I just said the same thing, but slightly differently.
I don’t think I should say any more – I might upset someone! Straight speaking does not always make you popular – ask Jesus and John the Baptist
I think one has to be outside looking in to see it.
I would tend to agree with you, Kate. A certain sense of smugness and false superiority seems to pervade a lot of its attitudes.
Replying not just to John, but to this entire discussion:
Vestments and liturgy provide a sense of ceremony and gravitas, just as a judge’s robes and specific wordings (“Oyez, oyez….”) do to a court proceeding. Must everything these days be as casual as a picnic lunch?
One of the virtues of the Anglican church I grew up in (the CofE) was the spread of worship/liturgical styles on offer. Not only do different people need different things, but they may grow and change. I have come to find high Anglicanism very helpful, but that was not always the case. And I know that complex ritual can make newcomers feel excluded. Not to mention the risk of the ritual becoming the end not the means. And of course it is much easier to offer a choice in a city rather than in scattered rural communities. But could we… Read more »
I think you are correct, Perry. I’ve been evangelical-ish all the years of my ministry; I’ve always been part of a small minority surrounded by a monolithic sea of liberal catholicism, and I’ve always followed the rubrics of the BCP or BAS, just not in a fussy or ritualistic way. Stephen Andrews and I were members of the Faith, Worship, and Ministry Committee of the Anglican Church of Canada 1998-2001. I remember attending a mass gathering of all the national committees with him half way through the triennium. We sat at the back of the room and listened to Michael… Read more »
I may be old fashioned but I have to say I find the item about the Archbishop of York very upsetting. Here is an Archbishop of the Church of England shown to be telling lies, or at best wilfully hiding information from those entitled to know.
I am sad as I had thought better of him than this. It does rather suggest he hasn’t the integrity to stand up to those who present him with false narratives.
For me it is also another very clear reason why bishops have to be more accountable, and much more transparent.
I am afraid it is even worse. The entire Archbishops’ Council were complicit in the lie.
When Boris Johnson (former UK prime minister) was found to have misled Parliament he was held to account. He resigned. Nobody expects Synod to hold anyone to account and archbishops are above honesty.
I think the word ‘liar’ is problematical including in this case. I’m not comfortable with it. I think the substance of the matter is the actual actions of the Archbishops’ Council. Whether the report back afterwards was deliberate lie, or oversight when stating facts, or erroneous recollection… what concerns me most is what they actually did to Survivors – vulnerable people already traumatised by the Church, who had just started to trust the highly-respected professionals put in place. Some members of the Archbishops Council were already gunning to have the ISB shut down back in November 2022, eight months before… Read more »
I’d also add: Why did the Archbishops’ Council not wait just two weeks to consult with the General Synod, share thoughts, and seek their input and approval? Instead, they acted unilaterally, as if they alone knew best. The impact on survivors, and trust in the Church, was dreadful. On June 7th, the two ISB members cited clause 21.2.2 of their contracts which provided for an independent mediator to be appointed to resolve the Dispute Notice, if parties could not agree. On June 12th, William Nye emailed AC members, informing them that an independent mediator would neither be effective nor timely.… Read more »
Susannah, I have detailed my case at the top of this thread. Suffice to say that I have raised the most serious concerns about 2 Diocesans & the then Acting Head of the NST actively withholding written evidence from the Makin Review & the Porter review into whether Justin would serve CDM on a Diocesan who sits in the Lords, & widespread deletion of substantial safeguarding material written to and from that Diocesan. More than 40 Bishops including 4 of the 5 most senior, the NST, and over half the AC have had the entire written evidence and all have… Read more »
Thank you Simon – I hope all this is brought to light in a forensic manner. Most importantly of all, everyone to do with the John Smyth events, both during his life and after, who suffered terrible harm, physically and psychologically, deserves ALL the facts about what was done, what people knew, what they did, and what they did not do. You’re right: I am always reluctant to call people liars until and unless I have access to the proof. But that doesn’t mean I’m wanting anything or anyone covered up. On the ‘Liar’ thing, I understood Gavin to be… Read more »
I don’t know the full story, but I wonder whether the question is how to hold William Nye to account, and archbishop Stephen was simply found out having trustingly read out the story given to him by Mr Nye.
Archbishop Stephen was present at a meeting with others at which a vote was taken and that vote was not unanimous. Every single person at the meeting must have known that it was not unanimous. Yet, every single person colluded in pretending that it had been unanimous. Every single person. Archbishop Stephen trustingly read out something he knew perfectly well to be a falsehood. Nobody will hold anybody to account because they are all in it together. Susannah, surely you cannot seriously imagine that every single one of them forgot that it hadn’t been unanimous, only discovering the fact upon… Read more »
I am sure I share with you a sense of dismay and a degree of revulsion at the events of May to July 2023. I’ve listed a number of issues where I suggest the conduct of the Archbishops’ Council was reprehensible really. With regard to the issue of Stephen Cottrell stating the decision to terminate was unanimous: I agree it’s hard to understand how that statement could have been asserted. Harder still to understand why not a single member of the Archbishops’ Council contradicted that on the day, or afterwards. With regard to being “present at the meeting with others… Read more »
“It’s hard to understand how that statement could have been asserted. Harder still to understand why not a single member of the Archbishops’ Council contradicted that on the day, or afterwards.”
Not really. Once you adjust your paradigm, it is perfectly easy to understand. But terribly, terribly sad for anyone who once trusted the Church, or who yearns for a Church to trust in.
I can almost hear conversations with members of the AC who voted against disbanding the ISB. So sorry it was presented as unanimous, entirely a misunderstanding I’m sure, anyhow it will be corrected at the next meeting *by the archbishop himself*. No need for you to say anything about it, there was no intention to minimise your contribution to the council, yes I understand it gave a misleading impression, very sorry, very sorry of course it goes without saying your contribution to the council is immensely valued, your voice is so important to take a different view. Puts phone down.… Read more »
They are beyond evil.
I don’t think any of the Archbishops’ Council are evil. I do think they made some very bad mistakes which harmed vulnerable survivors when the ISB was shut down.
Picking up from David Hawkins and Dave above, I think the entire course of events regarding the disbanding of the ISB which has been played out in both York Synods displays the Church of England happily embracing the era of post truth- truth is what I say it is because I am powerful. I too find this totally shocking . I watched Gavin’s blog after I read it, and my dismay grew. Kate Keates earlier in the post talks about the C of E overcome by pride- I was overwhelmed by the overbearing smugness of the hierarchy at the synod.… Read more »
Maybe I’m soft at times. I don’t know. Or it might be incredulity. I just find it hard to believe that Stephen Cottrell deliberately set out to deceive, because it would be shattering if that was the case. I do honestly try to think the best of people, and I also think that sometimes conspiracy is attributed to things that are part of the shambles theory of the universe. I do have a fairly forensic mind, and I can see how wretched the overall actions of the Archbishops’ Council seem to me to have been. I would find it harder… Read more »
I understand where you’re coming from Susannah. Despite having become very cynical indeed about senior clergy (and indeed laity) in the Church over recent years, I still don’t think ++York sat down and thought about how he could cause damage to people, lie/mislead Synod, and do a multiplicity of other things that have contributed to harming both individuals and God’s Church. But I do see a combination of incompetence and weakness there through which he has allowed himself to be pulled into colluding with toxic cultures, systems and people, and indeed an overall shambolic organisation than spouts professionalised language but… Read more »
Abp Stephen is a joint President of the Archbishops’ Council. He shouldn’t need William Nye to tell him how the Council voted. He was part of it.
And, according to Abp Justin, both archbishops “wanted to wait” – strongly implying that they were amongst the four who voted against.
Cottrell’s lying to synod is a bizarre tale, not least because he is a very bad liar. He referred to the decision being both ‘collective’ & ‘unanimous’, and this was recorded. By using both terms he made it very clear that this was not an error of the moment, he knew exactly what he was saying. Then he failed to use the Feb 2024 synod to apologise, & claimed at the July 2024 synod, twelve months on from the offence, that this minor error has just been brought to his attention. It’s almost as if he was not present at… Read more »
The latest issue of Private Eye indicates that Archbishop Welby has a good deal on his plate. If the article is correct there are some chickens about to come home to roost. After his retirement he may have to join Lord Sentamu in the ministerial wilderness. Telling lies to GS and the equivocation over the Smyth report are but two examples of archiepiscopal failings. The thing I find most irksome is that the bishops have used the sledgehammer of the CDM to pursue parish clergy over relatively minor misdemeanours and yet seem to be entirely above the law themselves.
I hope you get commission-I bought a copy with my shopping instead of waiting for my friend’s copy!
Let’s watch and see whether the Archbishop sues Private Eye….. but I suspect he won’t . The whole situation just gets worse.
If the Eye has publishable proof that J.W. assisted in keeping John Smyth in the lifestyle to which he had become accustomed then J.W. ought to resign now, or it will only get worse for all Anglicans. I suppose there’s no way he can be sacked? Can the Head of the Church do anything?
A member of General Synod can put forward a motion for debate with 100 supporting signatures. There was one quite recently calling for JW to resign but it seems to have lapsed.
Stephen Andrews says that “The words of the trust may seem quaint and uncontentious to us, but in their day they were powerfully political.” I think I want to respond in two ways. Firstly the words strike me as entirely contentious. ‘Strictly Protestant and Evangelical principles’ is just one expression of Anglicanism. It by no means describes the character of Anglicanism in all its fullness. ’the thirty nine Articles interpreted in their plain natural sense’ is also a very contentious phrase today. The 39 Articles are very limited and the product of a very particular time. They are an historic… Read more »
Andrew: “‘Strictly Protestant and Evangelical principles’ is just one expression of Anglicanism. It by no means describes the character of Anglicanism in all its fullness. ’the thirty nine Articles interpreted in their plain natural sense’ is also a very contentious phrase today. The 39 Articles are very limited and the product of a very particular time. They are an historic formulary and give a snapshot of a particular time. There is nothing universal about them and to suggest that there is diminishes God.” Superb observations. Thank you. We diminish the Church of England and the work of the Holy Spirit, if… Read more »
‘“‘Strictly Protestant and Evangelical principles’ is just one expression of Anglicanism. It by no means describes the character of Anglicanism in all its fullness.’
I don’t think either Wycliffe College or its Anglo-Catholic counterpart on the other side of Hoskin Avenue, Trinity College, claims to represent Anglicanism in all its fulness. Each of them is aware (as is the whole Canadian church) that they represent one strand of the Anglican tradition.
“I don’t think either Wycliffe College or its Anglo-Catholic counterpart on the other side of Hoskin Avenue, Trinity College, claims to represent Anglicanism in all its fulness. “
Then why does Stephen write as he does: ‘In the last year of my tenure at Wycliffe College, and in the expectation that the college will remain true to its heritage, let me set out what I regard as Anglicanism’s distinctive marks:’ and then go on with the narrow context that Wycliffe represents?
Andrew, I’m mystified by your response to this article. Yes, Stephen began by quoting the original Wycliffe trust in its historical context—and I think he would agree that the trust was a creature of its time— but I don’t see the rest of the article as being especially controversial. In fact, I’d be hard pressed to find a single statement in this article that any Anglican, whether high church or low church, would have found contentious from 1549 until the advent of the Oxford Movement.
A very fair point. And after I posted, I also reflected on my own use of the blanket term ‘evangelical’ which as most of us here probably recognise includes both ‘conservative’ and ‘socially liberal’ expressions. Evangelical seems to mean different things to different people. But that adds to the underlying diversity of strands and expressions within a Broad Church. Moreover I believe even individuals may understand their faith as including aspects of evangelical, catholic, charismatic, social etc. But collectively we are One Church.
At the risk of being branded a fundamentalist isn’t this one of the key tests? ‘Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will’. Many of the comments on this platform sound to me like conforming to the pattern of this world.
There are good things in the world and bad things, and sometimes a person who is a Christian can learn from people who are atheist or agnostic. I’d say that Christian transformation and the renewal of our minds (obviously with the help of the Holy Spirit and Her interplay with our minds and consciences) is above all about opening our minds to the flow of God’s compassionate love, dying to self daily, and allowing that love to flow selflessly out to others. Surely, that is the heart of transformation? And if that sometimes aligns with the compassion and insights of… Read more »
Your mention of atheists and agnostics brought this to mind: There is a famous story told in Hasidic literature that addresses this very question. The Master teaches the student that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson. One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?”The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all — the lesson of true compassion. You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick,… Read more »
I am not going to comment on your last paragraph but I agree very much with the rest.
You are aware of the fact that Wycliffe College is situated across the road from Trinity College, right? It might be worth doing a little research into the history of those two institutions, and their relationship.
Hi Tim
Yes I’m aware. I’m commenting on what Stephen has written. He doesn’t provide the context you mention and quotes the trust, saying that today we find it uncontentious. Well, I’m disagreeing. For the reasons I have made clear. I’m not really sure what you are saying other than to agree that Stephen only identifies a particular part of a bigger whole. His writing doesn’t make it clear.
Tim, could you expand on your point? Andrew is right about the 39 stripes save one–period pieces. Artifacts. As for Trinity folks might research Eugene R. Fairweeather sometime of Trinity College (trin trin) at UT. One of the Canadian giants of the previous century Anglican theology.
Leaving alone the 39 Articles (the last refuge of – if not the scoundrel – the desperate), the claim that there’s ‘a family resemblance’ between Holy Brompton and All Saints Margaret Street is laughable. I all but choked on my cornflakes.
Lol. Your reply and a previous one by Perry Butler contests Andrews’ characterization. I think about the 39 articles every Maundy Thursday when we translate the blessed sacrament to the altar of repose, gazing upon it and carrying it about all the while.
Stephen would agree. ‘While the shape of modern liturgy has evolved to the extent that a congregational exchange between, say, Holy Trinity Brompton and All Saints Margaret Street might cause people to wonder if they actually belonged to the same church…’
+Stephen sees a common focus “in a rhythm of the frequent celebration of Holy Communion, and in the observance of a liturgical calendar.” HTB eucharistic? HTB liturgical? (HTB Anglican? some might say, but I’m not going there).
“(HTB Anglican? some might say, but I’m not going there).”
Oh, let’s go there.I’m not at all sure that there is anything in the life of the HTB network that reflects any valuing of Anglican inheritance. I’m quite convinced that the only thing that keeps the HTB network in the C of E is the largesse of the Church Commissioners.
The ‘best boat to fish from’ ecclesiology – I wonder what the late +Stephen Sykes would have said about that.
My main gripe about HTB is its systemic and un-Anglican indifference to the rural church (maybe fed by the largesse you identify). When I teased two HTB network clergy with rural parishes in their benefices over this, their replies were remarkable only for an absence of either imagination or humility.
I have no information as to how often Holy Communion is celebrated at HTB. Do you?
I have some sympathy for your non-question about whether HTB is Anglican. I feel the same way about churches that are Roman Catholic in all but name. But of course, when you claim to be the established church for all English people, doesn’t it make sense to interpret the word ‘all’ as including ‘those for whom formal liturgy doesn’t work’? If you exclude those people, how are you the established church for all English people?
Defining ‘Anglican’, like writing history, is a moveable feast, hence I copped out.
However, if Establishment is to mean anything we must be inclusive, a church with a firm centre but soft margins, a church in which same sex couples can find a welcome, and – to be Anglican – a church which isn’t bound to one theory of the atonement.
The HTB network in including those for whom formal liturgy doesn’t work excludes in other ways – ways which, it seems to me, are more fundamental to the flourishing of ‘all sorts and conditions of man’.
‘The HTB network in including those for whom formal liturgy doesn’t work excludes in other ways – ways which, it seems to me, are more fundamental to the flourishing of ‘all sorts and conditions of man’.’ That would only be the case if the HTB network said that ALL C of E churches had to follow their approach. But I don’t see them saying that. It seems to me to be entirely reasonable that the national established church should make room for congregations that take an HTB approach as well as a more traditional or even extremely high Anglican approach.… Read more »
The world of HTB isn’t insisting that all C of E churches should be like them, but they exert an influence on the culture of the C of E which means that their way of doing things is becoming increasingly mainstream, and the strategic thinking of the C of E is increasingly based on the sorts of assumptions that HTB would make. More traditional expressions of Anglicanism are beginning to be regarded by many key people as a bit quaint and niche. I can’t imagine many current leaders of the C of E writing about Anglican Patrimony with the warmth… Read more »
You’ve stolen my answer, Fr! Although I would add that, among ‘the sorts of assumptions that HTB would make, are those which are irredeemably middle-class. For example, the promotion of a marriage prep course based on married Christian couples inviting engaged couples to dinner. This was met with incredulity in my old chapter, not only by clergy in estate parishes but also by those in traditional rural ones.
In my life time the traditions/ churchmanships within the C of E have moved further apart. Is there a firm centre anymore with catholic/ evangelical/ liberal as emphases on it ? Or are we becoming more the ” polo mint” church?
Would you judge this the inevitable outcome of the “national church for everyone” model of the present Church of England? In trying to avoid theological declarations of even a basic sort, it has instead promoted “good disagreement.” Once you go down this road, you do get lots of “disagreeing’ — HTB, no women priests AC, women priests AC, and the list goes on. I doubt this is what the 16th century ecclesia anglicana had in view. If it is important to declare the Articles ‘wrong and creatures of just that time’, it is also the case that having definitions was… Read more »
As a Yank, Christopher, you should recognize that this is precisely why our Constitution insists on a total disengagement of the state from religion. There can be no such thing as “a church for everyone” in a nation where the right to worship (or not worship) as one chooses is the law of the land.
The solution to this dilemma in England is, therefore, disestablishment.
I don’t understand why this is addressed to me. If you want to tell the CofE to disestablish, feel free to do so.
(I have a PTO in the Church of England, lived in the UK for nine years, France for five — where I was chaplain at the CofE in Fontainebleau).
It is addressed to you because you seemed to have a problem with the phrase “national church for everyone”
You are commending a legal arrangement in the United States to me, on the topic of the state of affairs in the Church of England. A country where there is an established church. That makes no sense. If you want (once again) to promote a US style thing to your conferes across the sea, have at it. Leave me out. I am not your ‘yank’ ally in something for the purpose of this discussion. Much less one unaware of the obvious difference between the US and England when it comes to ecclesiology. I was asking a question of someone “in”… Read more »
And my point was that, since the UK–including England–now, by law, says that all people have a right to worship (or not) as they choose, the very concept of a national, established church “for everyone” will lead to the situation you describe—and that the way out of that situation is disestablishment.
It its inception, the polity of a church governed by the monarch was of course miles away from “a church of everyone.” It was illegal to be a Roman Catholic. Puritanism was not the Church of England. This for reasons of faith and practice. The argument could be made–you are making it–that the present Church of England has become something different and in consequence, disestablishment offers itself as a remedy. Others seem to hold to the view that the “church for everyone” idea is a good one. That what the Church of England has become, is workable and desirable. The… Read more »
I don’t know what ‘good disagreement’ is. But I do know that the history of the Church shows disagreement to be the norm – and conflict is a sign of vitality is it not. Maybe we shouldn’t be unduly panicked.
“good disagreement” is the latterly declared tag-line of the CofE. A la Welby-era jargon.
But surely in past centuries, when having definitions was thought important, that was only possible because those with the power could enforce the definitions, and those who disagreed could be ignored, excommunicated, imprisoned or executed depending on the context.
Nowadays such responses are no longer possible, and so we have no choice but to find ways of accommodating disagreement without killing each other.
Nowadays… So, it follows, ‘good disagreement’ as the identity marker of an established CofE soon to disappear into ‘national church’ miasme. Nowadays. I do not accept your premise, but in the present situation, it matters little. The CofE is on the ropes and nearing extinction. Your “surely in past centuries” musing is not going to change that. Either one sees this is a crisis, or one blogs and defends one’s favorite menu item. I am a church historian and theologian with a ‘long view.’ I do not accept your assertion. Mendicant orders (Franciscans and Domincans), with vows of poverty, Orders… Read more »
Back in the nineties Hans Kung said “There will be no peace between the civilizations without a peace between the religions. And there will be no peace between the religions without a dialogue between the religions.” His insight has obvious current applicability given the world scene . It also has applicability to Christianity within the context of current civil politics. It is relevant as well with regard to the in fighting in various Christian denominations. Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism both evidence intense polarization at present. Unfortunately the ‘good disagreement’ schtick tends to be advanced without addressing the power imbalances that… Read more »
I had to Google “polo mint”….on this side of the pond, that would be “Life Savers”…and now I understand the analogy!
Prior to his posting at Wycliffe, Stephen Andrews was bishop of the historically Anglo-Catholic diocese of Algoma. As principal, he presided several times at the very Anglo-Catholic parish of St Bartholomew’s, Regent Park, including at least one ordination. So I think he’s pretty comfortable across the breadth of Anglican tradition!
Daily Chapel worship at Wycliffe is traditional Morning Prayer and mid-week Eucharist with chanted psalm singing. Book of Common Prayer. Students are in placements all over Toronto, including Anglo-Catholic parishes. Trinity College across the street is an undergraduate institution with a lovely campus, and a very small divinity component. I am unaware of older historic tensions and disagreements having much place today, given Trinity’s life inside the University of Toronto, and the counterparts in undergraduate residential education. I’m not sure how many divinity students it registers, but Wycliffe has been much larger during my time there. Wycliffe is not an… Read more »
I am glad to hear that the BCP has been revived at Wycliffe. In my days as an occasional visitor from across the road, chanted psalms at the Wednesday Eucharist would have been unheard of.
From the time of (now Bishop) Sumner, 30 years go. ‘Across the road’ — well I leave that to others to describe or commend.
Stephen Andrews had a gig here in my diocese as curate at St. Paul’s, Halifax. It bills itself as the oldest protestant church in ‘British North America’. Its tradition is old school evangelical, though perhaps less overtly as of late. Andrews is a conservative. Old St. P was once ‘north end’ with a rector from England who refused to wear a cassock under his sarum surplice and scarf. I once asked the guy who folowed him if they were still north end and his reply was ” we are sort of north by north west”. Lol We had a trend… Read more »
Yes, that trend was helped by nearby St Thomas’s, Huron Street, having a Wycliffe alumnus as long-time rector, and by Victoria Matthews sending most of her postulants there.
Interesting. Did not know that tidbit about Matthews. Was that while she was suffragan in T.O.? Theology students should be able to study at their instituion of choice. Plus I have long thought the M. Div. Degree ( I have one) has too much of a market share in the mimistry education racket in Canada.
When Bishop Victoria was our bishop in Edmonton she sent most of her postulants to Wycliffe. When she resigned from Edmonton diocese she was bishop in residence at Wycliffe for an academic year.
Interesting.
I experienced Bishop Victoria as a committed Anglo-Catholic with a true respect and appreciation for the diversity of Anglicanism. Case in point: when the first edition of my book ‘Starting at the Beginning’ was published by Anglican Book Centre in 2004, she wrote the foreword for it and promoted it vigorously in our diocese, even though it clearly came from a more evangelical position than hers.
Good stuff.
She (Victoria Matthews) was of course Bishop of Christchurch NZ from 2008-2018, during which period the earthquakes occurred and her cathedral was destroyed. Father Ron Smith could, I am sure, have added to this post.
Yeah I was thinking about that when i read the article by Peter Carrell on the other thread. And yes Fr. Ron of blessed memory. Really liked his wisdom. He used the Pauline phrase “en Christo” a lot.
The destruction of the cathedral would not be her fault, though, would it? Isn’t that a matter for the Dean?
‘ . . . her cathedral was destroyed.’ When a possessive pronoun is used in relation to a cathedral church it refers to the bishop of the diocese.
A possessive pronoun refers to the last mentioned person of relevant gender. The choirboy was proud of his cathedral. However I was being facetious. Obviously the blame for the Earthquake must lie even higher than dean or bishop.
Similarly, a town or city might be ‘proud of its cathedral’. But a bishop has been legally installed in his or her cathedral, giving the possessive pronoun greater significance.
The below is pasted from the list of Petertide ordinations in the current online Church Times.
‘By the Bishop [of Bristol] in her cathedral on 30 June’
and for the other dioceses where ordination is by the diocesan at the cathedral the term his or her cathedral is applied.
Lol. I should think it would qualify as an act of God, no?
I believe that people were saying that when a city church in Leeds suffered severe gale damage in the 1960s.
Correct. She was a close friend of Wycliffe, its faculty and Dean. She was in residence for a time. Followed by Fleming Rutledge. I’m sure she appreciated our commitment to BCP worship and our academic standards. Rusty Reno declared our PhD program among the top institutions in North America. We had a very good crop of PhD students for two decades. It is now a new generation of faculty. I have only two more to wrap up my supervisions.
No, when she was in Edmonton.
I wish Stephen Andrews had reflected on the words “catholic” (universal – the CofE makes a universal claim in its Canons) and “living” (the link is to a blog with the word in the name) as well as those he has chosen. In particular, to use “reformed” without using “catholic” in some way feels too much like a party play rather than a broad appreciation. In my time in my current parish, I have had two Wycliffe people as colleagues – both have added substantially to the breadth and reach of ministry. Two of our members were ordained Deacon at… Read more »
The teaching of ‘The Alliance’, GSFA, and Gafcon is that gay people who engage in sex are not going to be saved. That’s why they call it a ‘salvation’ issue. I am not really clear how a ‘relational’ solution is sustained, if you tell lesbian and gay people that they will not be saved when they die because their sexual intimacy is sin and abomination to God. I ‘get’ that people’s sincere individual conscience should be accepted in the Church, but I really don’t see how you can institutionalise a whole new Province which locks out most gay couples as… Read more »
I doubt the C of E makes a claim to be universal in its canons. After all there are the Welsh, Scots and Irish to consider. Not to mention overseas. The C of E claims to be part of the universal Church. Not to actually be the universal church.
Indeed. Part of . It therefore recognises contra Rome and the Orthodox that schism is within the Church catholic not from it and so catholicity doesn’t depend on full communion within its parts
Stephen: ‘the Reformation is itself an outcome of Bible reading. It is grounded in the conviction that Holy Scripture is “God’s Word written” ‘ But what precisely did the Reformers back then mean by ‘God’s Word written’ and what does it mean to us (variously) today in the Church of England or the Church of Canada? Is the Bible a portal through which we may open to the Holy Spirit and encounter Jesus? Or is it, in itself, God contained and conclusive in each verse? Is it a conduit that helps us open and connect with God? Or is it,… Read more »
The reformers were still emerging from the middle ages.
‘The reformers were still emerging from the middle ages.’ Chronological snobbery? Grace Hamman’s recent book ‘Jesus through Medieval Eyes: Beholding Christ with the Artists, Mystics, and Theologians of the Middle Ages’ is brilliant and heart-warming. C.S. Lewis was also primarily a medievalist. I love his insight that the only way to avoid the blind spots of our own age is to regularly read people from different times than our own. To acknowledge that the folks in the middle ages knew a lot less science than us is obviously true. but to assume that a theological idea is suspect just because… Read more »
“Chronological snobbery?” Hardly, Tim. That is a bit of bumper sticker. I’m just adverting to historical, and for that matter, cultural context. Ideas evolve. For example, I appreciate Aquinas tremendously, the very icon of the medieval synthesis, a debt owed to Jewish and Islamic philosophers, which then eventually collapses. The heirs are 20th & 21st century transcendental Thomists. Besides, here I am pitching readings from The Shepherd of Hermas. (see my previous free standing comment). My God, I crack myself up some times I’m so conservative. lol. But remember the Neil Young lyric, Tim : “It’s easy to get buried… Read more »
“…which then eventually collapses.” How weird.
How historically factual!
Right. Pope Pius V proclaimed St. Thomas Aquinas as a Doctor of the Church on 15 April 1567, and ranked his feast with those of the four great Latin Fathers: Ambrose, Augustine, Jerome and Gregory. At the Council of Trent, Thomas had the honor of having his Summa Theologiae placed on the altar alongside the Bible and the Decretals. This happened within the historical timeframe of the “second scholasticism,” a trend during the 16th and 17th centuries that saw renewed interest in the works of scholars of the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries, in spite of humanism as a contrary trend. Second… Read more »
I am well acquainted with the journey of the ‘angelic doctor’ etc. You missed completely the point of my reply to Tim which followed from my earlier reply to Susannah Clark. Your knee jerk reaction suggests so. I am noting the tension between so called ‘discrete’ historical periods and the historian’s view of how these periods on the other hand may evolve one from another. ( see link). Piety and hagiography do not obviate the collapse of the medieval synthesis.
https://www.excellence-in-literature.com/the-medieval-synthesis-and-the-discovery-of-man-by-steven-kreis/
Everyone is entitled to favorite opinions. The facts are as stated. Thomas’ portrait was not placed on the altar at the mediaeval Council of Trent; the Summa was. Indeed much of the debate over the canon entailed how his work was being received. The authors cited about were mediaeval thomists, Cajetan playing a major role vis-a-vis Martin Luther. So-called “transcendental Thomism” is a modern sub-set of the legacy of Thomas, vastly overshadowed by the Dominican heritage of the summa at the Angelicum, for example. Or the French school interested in Thomas through historical lenses. Or those trained under the scholasticism… Read more »
This is all very well ; but all beside the point. None of it relates to the collapse of the medieval synthesis as matter of factual analysis. The legacy of Thomism after its collapse in Catholicism and elsewhere, and from the end of the middle ages down to present day, is a separate issue and one which simply evidences and is a consequence of the collapse itself. I began reading Aquinas and Jacques Maritain in Catholic high school. One of my undergraduate profs studied directly with Ratzinger for his Ph.D., the conservative “teenager” of Vatican II. (Have you read Gaudium… Read more »
typo, Gaudium et Spes.
The germ of this disagreement may be traceable to your statement in which Thomas and “a debt owed to Jewish and Islamic philosophers” does service for a ‘mediaeval synthesis”. My point has been that there is an ongoing appreciation and indeed deference to Thomas throughout the mediaeval period, including second scholasticism in the 16th and 17th centuries. Your sentence could be read as denying that, or obscuring it. 500 years is a long time. I am in no doubt of your affection for Lonergan — who holds something totalizing in your thinking akin to the Summa for Dominicans of a… Read more »
The idea that Thomist scholasticism evaporated until the 20th century, then to be found in “Transcendental Thomism,” is to say it again, weird. Thomas isn’t at the “end of the Middle Ages” as you just stated it. You omit to mention “second scholasticism” at the end of the Middle Ages, as noted above.
If there is anyone who speaks as categorically about matters like this, I’d like to know who they are.
I just think it is hard for you to be called out on matters in error. One doesn’t need to have an advanced degree to do that.
Re your last paragraph, first line, i think you may be projecting. Lol.lol.
One of the realities of having trained PhD students for four decades is that you must live in a world of constant external scrutiny from high level scholars. That isn’t your world. A bright guy who likes to read and offer strong opinions on a blog knows nothing of this formal world of intellectual push-back. That’s fine. But the projecting is your own.
Never said I did. I’ve made it clear many times here I’m not an academic. Your rejoinder alas is the inevitable disparaging comment that characterizes your default position when you appear to become frustrated with people who see things differently than you. You are no doubt a competent OT scholar and knowledgeable about the various hermeneutical approaches of historical theologians. However, once your opinions begin to move beyond the circumscribed area of your expertise they become increasingly debatable and tendentious. As far as I can tell, simply from your rejoinders on this thread, you don’t really have a grasp on… Read more »
All very erudite, but when someone replies to a statement about the beliefs of the reformers with the counter-statement ‘the reformers were still emerging from the middle ages’ (which, by the way, is every bit as ‘bumper sticker; as C.S. Lewis’ chronological snobbery line, which I was quoting), the obvious inference is ‘;and therefore we can’t take their beliefs seriously.’ If that’s not what you meant, then i apologize, but I then have absolutely no idea what you did mean.
It isn’t what I meant Tim. Thanks for the opportunity to say so. I was simply trying to point out that some of the early reformers were in some ways medieval men, and that needs to be taken into account when reading them. My mistake of omission was perhaps commenting too briefly to Susannah Clark.
“were in some ways medieval men” — I’d call that an advantage measured against the sloppy thinking and poor control of philosophy in much late modernity.
I shall close in Gaelic. ” An ni a sgriobh mi, sgriobh mi e.”
(Jn. 19:22).
Are the books of the Apocrypha part of the Bible or not? I don’t really care about the answer but the important point is that Christians don’t even all agree on what books are, or are not, in the Bible. The logical inference is that not all books of the Bible have the same status. So when you ask whether the Bible is God’s word or commentary I think you are oversimplifying so much that the question cannot be answered. Instead we should ask that question of each book of the Bible separately and not try to generalise. Personally, for… Read more »
Jerome set (what Sixtus of Siena first called) the ‘deuterocanonical’ books (books never originally in Hebrew) in a separate category and declared them useful for edification (what he called ‘apocrypha’). Anglicans have followed Jerome (see the dreaded 39 Articles). The church catholic lived with the divergence between the Florentine list (also at times called Augustine’s list) and the ‘helmeted preface’ of Jerome, and said it was an ‘open matter.’ Even at Trent, there was clear awareness of distinctions between kinds of books (variously called Canonical and Ecclesiastical or Doctrinal and Moral, etc) but not some idea of ‘canon within a… Read more »
Certainly an academic theologian is likely to have greater insight than I. If only the Church of England taught that different books have various statuses.
Depends who you ask. There are academics who are friendly to your point of view too. (see below). In a previous thread I adverted to R.C. scholar Raymond Brown’s magisterial, The Death of the Messiah. He has a chapter on the non-canonical Gospel of Peter–because his project required it. ‘ The church’ has been is by passed on the matter increasingly. I referenced in a previous thread the book, The Making of the Bible by Konrad Schmid and Jens Schroter.( trans. by Peter Lewis). This is from their chapter, The Formation of the Christian Bible. “Even today, then, there is… Read more »
I was responding to a comment that did not raise the issue of non-canonical books, but the apocrypha and the different classification of canonical books.
I am very sympathetic to the concerns raised in Kate’s comment. The comment offered the opportunity to segue to a wider conversation –one that is not controlled or limited by ecclesiastical decisions past or present–one that is being enabled by professional scholars writing highly successful books for the popular reader. It’s a blog. So that is how we roll, or should I say that is how we troll. lol. lol.
Kate, I hope the comment was helpful. The Church of England has followed in belief and in practice the position of Jerome. “And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following: The Third Book of Esdras The Fourth Book of Esdras The Book of Tobias The Book of Judith The rest of the Book of Esther The Book of Wisdom Jesus the Son of Sirach Baruch the Prophet The Song of the Three Children The… Read more »
It is very helpful when people like you and Rory Gillis include links for further reading as follow-up. Please post a link to your paper at the Angelicum. Access to such things can be difficult. Although I am a retired academic (not in theology), I no longer have access to an academic library.
Good suggestion..
Dear Mr Lamont, I am happy to do that. It is moving from oral address to print publication, or from 3500 to 7000 words. In general, Beryl Smalley’s The Study of the Bible in the Middle Ages is still regarded as a gold standard. Your local purveyor of books (Amazon, etc) will send it to you in timely fashion. I am happy to provide other titles. The modern fascination with ‘non-canonical books’ — like a lot of things modern — has lent itself to tribalism in the NT guild. Some for whom this is all passe and not useful (to… Read more »
Addendum: Frans van Liere, The Mediaeval Bible (Cambridge, 2014). Richard Gameson, The Early Medieval Bible (Cambridge, 1994). The Brill volume on The Deuterocanonical Books has a very clear essay by Edmun Gallagher on “The Latin Bible.” Gallagher forwarded me a PDF of his essay. Often authors will do this. Augustine has several places where he discusses the canon (Letters to Jerome; City of God). He modifies his position over time concerning The Hebrew Verity. The Church Catholic lived with the two accounts of the canon vis-a-vis the soi-disant apocrypha until Trent (though see John O’Malley, Trent Harvard, 2013). On this… Read more »
What would be cool would be access to all the papers at the Angelicum conference.
https://angelicum.it/event/scripture-conference-2024/
Was it video recorded? The Gregorian has done that from time to time. It gives you the Q & A which is often insightful. Back In June there was notice here about the conference below in a comment by Dr. Christina Beardsley. (TA June 8th). Be interesting to have the proceedings of that as well.
https://londonjesuitcentre.churchsuite.com/events/05t3fu1n
Well I do disagree Kate, but you make a good point about the Apocrypha, and also that each author should be read and understood in their own specific context. Even within individual books of the Bible, I think the authors may sometimes get things right, and sometimes less so. To me, the question above all is: yes, but when I read a passage in the Bible does it open my heart to awareness of God, to God’s grace, to the flow of God’s Love. I’m afraid passages like the ones where (allegedly) God “commanded” the Israelites to carry out slaughter… Read more »
I appreciate your strong connection to the biblical text, something you have expressed on numerous occasions. Without wishing to argue the point, I’d simply like to quote the late David Burrell who noted that among the Abrahamic religions, Christian revelation is not in a book, not even the NT, but in a person. (link). I think belief in God is not provable but defensible. Once one has established that, I would argue that the historical Jesus, like each of us, is a random result of history but one upon which the divine alighted. He was a kind of walking taking… Read more »
What I liked in the few minutes after that section was the way the speaker differentiated between the witness of love, and the witness to ideology. If Christianity becomes a stand-off between ideologies, or if one group of Christians is characterised and defined by its ideologies, and the need to conform to those ideologies at all costs… then it gets ripped apart, it shows the world ideas, but it distracts from showing the world the person of Jesus. I believe what people find most relevant about Christianity is when it becomes relevant to them, because of the ubiquitous need for… Read more »
Somewhere in there Burrell distinguishes between an ‘ideology’ and a ‘tradition’. His reckoning is that traditions are open to criticism/self-criticism whereas ideologies are not. A Celtic tradition talks about ‘thin places’. I thought if there can be thin places, why not ‘thin persons’ as it were. I like that as a metaphor for Jesus. And of course it works for saints as well. Your point about love is right on. I often think of Lonergan adverting to Romans, that lovely phrase about the love of God flooding our hearts through the Holy Spirit that is given to us. Religion, all… Read more »
“Divine love brings us to itself.”
That is so beautiful.
Kate, you may find this article of interest. It is recent and open access. Simon Dawson if you are reading this the article mentions the Didache in passing.
Critical Reflections on the Role of the Canon in New Testament Scholarship | New Testament Studies | Cambridge Core
Oh dear. Have I become that predictable? But there is one linking theme between the Didache and your fascinating discussion about the canon, and that is the question “who gets to choose? Where does authority lie?” To me the Didache is fascinating as it speaks to the question how were bishops chosen in the early church. It provides evidence that at times the people chose the bishops for themselves, rather than the people having their bishops chosen for them by other bishops. The same question applies when it comes to the Christian canon, a list of those texts that we… Read more »
No more predictable than me. My friends tell me, “Don’t ever play poker.” lol. But seriously, I linked the article from Cambridge Press because in it the author in section 3, Constructing the NT, touches on the issue of core texts and peripheral texts while reviewing Eusebius from a historical perspective. I thought that may be of some interest to someone who is asking about possibility of varying degrees of ‘status’ among NT books—which I take to be something like the old question of a Canon within a Canon. The issue is also connected to a wider question about the… Read more »
Thanks Rod, I fully support your scholarship and post, and the need to understand the historical background to the canon. But part of that understanding is to understand not just why the non canonical books are of interest now, but why were they suppressed or regarded as unreliable back then. And that can lead us to giving value to a book now that was labelled unreliable then. As always it is all about power, and who has the power to do the labelling, and why. I think the phrase is “a hermeneutic of suspicion”. I have no problem with the… Read more »
I think my reply on the subject of liturgy and your comment here may have passed one another in the ether. In any event I am only seeing it now. Regarding your your second paragraph Francis Watson covers that in the section, Constructing the NT. What I take away is, some of those books were ‘known’ i.e. they were being read on par with what became canonical books, and they were popular. Now that is an interesting dynamic regarding authority!
Your second last paragraph. I agree. You better exactly what I was attempting to raise as well.
Sorry, to clarify for readers. “Apocrypha and noncanonical books” belong to different registers. The former have, morever, been rostered within the orders of the other canonical books by “those following Augustine” in the church catholic. Or labeled “deuterocanonical.” They have been read in the assembly (also for Anglicans), and church Fathers (e.g. Aquinas) cite them (Wisdom and Sirach) in the course of their writings. Non-canonical works are as the word says it. Pseudepigraphical is the common term. More recently ‘parabiblical’ (if you want to include non biblical texts at Qumran, e.g.). To the best of my knowledge “progressive” churches have… Read more »
I am tempted to say “thanks Captain obvious”; but perhaps some readers may appreciate your ‘clarification’. As I pointed out, I wanted to broaden the conversation. The article I linked by Francis Watson from Cambridge University Press has an interesting conclusion: “A text set in a canonical context – the fourfold gospel, the Pauline or Catholic letter collection – is no longer the same entity as it once was during its pre-canonical phase, when it may have been read alongside texts that will eventually become ‘apocryphal’ or ‘heretical’ as they are passed over in the process of canon-formation. Those texts too were… Read more »
Just a wee follow up to our conversation. My introduction to the Didache was via liturgical studies. Below is a citation from American liturgist Marion J. Hatchett. Leapfrogging from that, I see that the introduction to the Canadian Rite notes that Eucharistic Prayer 2 is modelled on the Apostolic tradition of Hippolytus (c. 215) and EP1 is rooted in the Apostolic Constitutions VIII. ( Book of Alternative Services, Canada p.179).Indirectly the liturgical life of the church prior to the construction of the NT Canon reminds us that canon is a product of the church, the church is not a product… Read more »
Exactly right Rod, and to me the Didache is useful in giving evidence of how the church operated (in one specific location) before: “the elaboration of the liturgy, more theological definition within rites, strict regulation of the functions of various orders of ministry, and the establishment of fixed written texts.” It helpfully destabilises those things that certain people (mentioning no names) argue are fixed and unchangeable. I don’t know what your liturgical studies teacher said about the Didache Eucharist section, but I find it interesting for two things, firstly it affirms lay presidency, and secondly it references the feeding of… Read more »
To repeat, feel free to read it aloud, or any other text for that matter, in your church. When I was on the Hermeneia Board, Helmut Koester was always keen to have as many parabiblical texts as possible printed. The practice at Fortress Press was to have yellow jacket covers for OT, and Red for NT. When 4 Ezra came out, they opted for Yellow with a red dot. And so he broke the bottle on this particular sailing frigate. One day the Press heads came to Cambridge and sat in Frank Cross’ tidy home and said, printing the pseudepigraphal… Read more »
Sounds like a creative solution. I’ve been at a few Eucharists with lay presidency, and participated in Communion services in reformed churches. I’ve always felt that the presence of Jesus’ is ‘real’ across the board. And! Sometimes ecumenical groups working on their own steam, sorting things together, can arrive at very meaningful liturgies. Getting back to the very original question about this shape of the canon and that, as I’ve mentioned here numerous times, I was raised Roman Catholic. I studied old testament while still a Catholic doing my B.A. at an ostensibly ‘Catholic’ university. It never occurred to me… Read more »
I’ve attached a list of titles re: noncanonical books below. Popular subject. Several options. Lots of reviews. Anyone who is a keener can put the titles or authors in their search engine. Here is a brief quote from the noncanonical, The Shepherd of Hermas. It rivals some of the more problematic passages we find in the canonical scriptures here and there. There are now spiffy editions available; but I am citing what I have on hand on my shelf, and old edition: Early Church Classics, SPCK, 1903, Rev. C. Taylor, D.D.,LL.D. “Keep Thyself then from from quick temper, that most… Read more »