David Runcorn
Martine Oborne ViaMedia.News In Conscience?
Questions of Conscience (4)
Christopher Landau Church Times Can Gen Z save a C of E it barely knows?
“The lack of attention to liturgy in some of the larger urban churches is a cause for concern, argues Christopher Landau”
Regarding Christopher Landau, it would be interesting if Church House were to undertake some research on the extent to which attendees at HTB-style churches have moved away from the largely urban centres where they are prevalent, and: (i) if they still remain in the Church of England; and (ii) if they worship in their own parish churches or travel to the nearest gathered HTB-style church. I suspect that, during the pandemic, there would have been a significant shift of attendees away from such urban areas, either into outer suburbs, or into the local greenbelt or (if they wish to maximise… Read more »
It is going to take some time for the demographic consequences of Covid to work through. I suspect there was less long-, or even medium-term movement than you think. Some young renters in London and other major cities who were able to work remotely (ie, middle-class white-collar workers) moved home to their parents. Some property owners, usually without school aged children, brought forward retirement-y moves out of the city (although if they are still working they are being brought up short by companies wanting workers to return). But the pressures on the London rental market say that there is no… Read more »
I suspect you are probably right. However, I have been amazed by the number of developments which are in train across much of the country, and which have gathered pace over the last 5 years, certainly when compared with the 15-20 years before. These developments are especially in evidence in counties/areas beyond the green belts and are the ‘fruits’ of Pickles’ mis-named localism agenda and targets issued by the centre. There are, in addition, to the many volume developments, enormous numbers of smaller developments; indeed, across much of the country there are relatively few villages in my experience which have… Read more »
What’s happening in finance (a major driver in London) is that junior staff who live in London are coming in, because working from your bedroom in an HMO is grim beyond belief. A few are still living with their parents, but the increasing requirement to come in two days a week (cf. Lloyds’ recent announcement) means that only works within commuting range anyway. Senior management are in most days, because they’re senior management. A wide range of middle management, who are well paid and bought houses twenty years ago, are working from home in the agreeable suburbs. I hope they… Read more »
Many thanks for these interesting observations. I agree that many middle class boomers (1946-64) are the ‘spoilt children of victory’ who believe that the world revolves around their interests (in the UK this is almost certainly true). They are then ‘surprised’ that others’ interests or outcomes do not elide with their own, and then often attribute those divergent interests or outcomes to fecklessness and inadequacy on the part of those less privileged than them. However, my experience of churches, whether urban, suburban and rural, is that attendance is currently dominated by the oldest cohort of boomers and, more especially, pre-boomers.… Read more »
The tidbits I’d add to this discussion are: 1. The urban churches alluded to here have a large membership of unmarried women, many of whom are likely to remain so for the remainder of their lives. This group contributes significantly to their church as well as community organisations, but those around 45 or younger are generally unable to afford a flat of their own to buy and often to rent. For the moment, they are largely staying out or moving out of London et al. to take care of their parents. 2. HTB and the Anglican side of New Wine… Read more »
If I had the talent, I would set Froghole’s entire post to music and have it sung in churches. Every single word is both true and important.
A beautifully lucid essay by David on ‘The Authority of Scripture’, setting out a thoughtful and intelligent evangelical approach far removed from literalism or divisive obsession with quasi-fundamentalist dogma, which all too often leads to psychological panic and alarm that if one part of dogma evolves or adjusts, the whole edifice of a tribe’s totemic identifiers might crumble. “If one single word of the Bible is abandoned, how do we know that any of it is true?” David’s reflection is calm, and ordered, and reasonable. I particularly appreciate his recognition that response to Biblical text evolves, as knowledge and culture… Read more »
I agree. I have really enjoyed David’s essay and will return to it, and draw from it for various areas of my work. When, a decade or more ago now, I worked at the Anglican Communion Office, my area of work – interfaith concerns – was also one that was contentious in some circles. As I discussed with my colleagues then, and would still say today, both interfaith concerns and sexuality might be ‘presenting issues’, but in reality underlying both of them was the question of the interpretation of scripture in the Anglican tradition. For me scripture is a ‘serious’… Read more »
It’s certainly as nuanced a case as I’ve seen for the authority of scripture, and as usual from David Runcorn, packed with fresh thinking clearly expressed; but it speaks volumes for the collapse of theological liberalism that it can be assumed that “Our present divisions are not over whether the bible is our supreme guide and authority or not. We are agreed on that.” (Unless the “we” is evangelicals, but the pronoun appears to be referring to the church as a whole — please excuse me if I’ve misunderstood, David!) It is, I accept, a fair assumption these days, but… Read more »
Good question James.
As the Bible has no answer to many issues around sexual ethics, historically the Church has also gone to other sources: tradition (including the sacraments), reason (in the classical sense) and experience (‘the genius of peoples’).
Given the strength of Evangelicalism in today’s Church of England, wrestling with these issues in such an holistic manner is likely to be unproductive. The Bible is given much heavy lifting to do, but it’s hard too see how David could have done it differently.
Oh, I wouldn’t expect him to, as he’s an evangelical — a tradition I have much respect for — and his work’s so compelling precisely because it operates within that framework and takes it in new directions.
As you so rightly say, evangelicalism is strong in the CoE, and it’s worked long and hard for that success. Liberalism does, as I’ve said here before, have much to learn from how evangelicalism has grown since Keele ‘67.
You mention the collapse of theological liberalism, to which I would add an apparent failure of nerve in the Catholic tradition. I don’t hear many point out that settling disputed matters solely at the bar of Scripture was not how it was done through most of the Church’s life.
James, I think David is intentionally writing as an apologist for inclusion within the evangelical community.
By the way, I should mention that my wife and I arrived in the UK for a few weeks’ holiday yesterday, so my contributions to TA will be a little more in sync chronologically than they usually are when I’m in Edmonton (7 hours behind the UK!).
Welcome back to the UK! I hope you enjoy your visit – and if you’re in Whitby, do look me up.
Thanks Janet. We’re mainly in the Midlands (my mum lives in Oakham), with a trip to the southwest at the end of our visit.
Martine: “Acting according to theological conscience is the calling of all Christians and must be respected. But…” It is easy to re-label other people’s consciences as bigotry. People who in sincerity of faith believe the Bible condemns men having sex with men… get labelled homophobic. People who in sincerity of faith believe that priesthood is only for men get labelled misogynists. And yet those are views that have been held in faith and good conscience for 2000 years. I share neither view (on gay sex or male-only priesthood) but I strongly believe people may still (like many in Christendom) hold… Read more »
“…I strongly believe people may still (like many in Christendom) hold those views with devotional lives, with faith, with good conscience. And that they deserve to be protected, have their conscience respected, in the accommodation of multiple conscientious views within a Broad Church….” The problem, as I see it, is that the most vocal holders of those beliefs are not content with a “Broad Church”, or with holding to those beliefs while permitting others, in good conscience, to hold differing beliefs. They are firmly of the opinion that any other belief (held in good conscience or not) is tantamount to… Read more »
I think you are correct. Americans who hold “orthodox” views believe that all who disagree with them are heretical apostates, worthy of ridicule and shame.
But bigotry is also a reality.
Is it not possible that there are those who are hold bigoted opinions sincerely?
David Runcorn has made an impressive contribution to the debate on human sexuality within the Church of England. But I fear very much that his contribution will not achieve as much as it deserves to. Academic debate normally proceeds on the basis that we are all looking at the evidence dispassionately in an effort to advance our understanding. That certainly seems to be what David Runcorn is doing. But I’m afraid that not all of us are on the same path. I suspect that many conservatives within the Church are motivated by an irrational hatred and fear of gay sex… Read more »
“…I suspect that many conservatives within the Church are motivated by an irrational hatred and fear of gay sex and they are using the bible not as a learning tool to advance their faith but as a vehicle to justify their irrational prejudice.”
I am reminded of a cartoon I saw many years ago. A man sits at a desk, frantically leafing through a large book. Questioned as to what he is doing, he replies, “I am looking for the irrefutable proof of my predetermined conclusion.”
I commend, and thank, David Runcorn for his eloquent arguments in favour of a more inclusive Christian teaching and practise in relation to same-sex relationships. But there is one thing which needs addressing. There is a phrase, “mansplaining”, which refers to the common practise of a man explaining a topic, commonly feminism, to a woman. I would argue that modern Christian discourse so often consists of “straightsplaining”, straight men explaining homosexuality to homosexuals in much the same way. I wonder if David risks straying into this (although I understand that I, personally, am not David’s intended audience). In his first… Read more »
I think you make a valid point but I suspect you’re agreeing with David Runcorn rather than disagreeing – same-sex relationships have certainly existed, and their participants may well have understood them as having the character of marriage, but the church has never previously been forced to address them on a societal scale. Those relationships have either been wholly clandestine or existed in a sort of don’t-ask-don’t-tell grey area and the church has been able to pretend they don’t exist. That’s what’s changed and what I think Mr Runcorn is driving at.
I was accused of “straightsplaining” when I tried to introduce a motion to our Church Council opposing the compulsory celibacy of Lesbian and Gay priests outlined in “Issues in Human Sexuality”. My defence is a follows. I consulted a renowned and experienced Lesbian cleric before proposing the motion and she suggested amendments that I incorporated . Secondly “Issues in Human Sexuality” was written by a bench of straight bishops, all men. So rather than telling lesbian and gay priests how to live their lives, I was objecting to a bench of straight bishops telling lesbian and gay clergy how they… Read more »
Thanks JoB and David for your comments. My “straightsplaining” quip was partly tongue in cheek, but I do hope it makes a valid point. I agree with Jo about David Runcorn’s text. And as for your own straightsplaining David H. You were clearly aware of your white, straight, male privilege and made an effort to compensate. What more can we ask for. Thank you. Just one correction to be made. David, you said “I was objecting to a bench of straight bishops telling lesbian and gay clergy how they should behave.” There are of course a number of homosexuals amongst… Read more »
And I hope you also listen to your bisexual brothers and sisters, who also exist.
The articles by David Runcorn are very engaging, the third one particularly so. However, your observation about explaining things from within a particular cohort whose members may lack existential experience of an issue is perspicacious. In the early days of synod debates here on the matter of same sex blessings/marriages, we were often reminded that members of sexual minorities were ‘in the room’. Members of sexual minorities were often too vulnerable to speak openly, leaving the floor to straight people pro or con. More recently GLBTQ2+ folks have been open and active participants in such conversations, and it has made… Read more »
typo correction: the 2 instances of LGBT!2+ above should read: LGBTQ2+. The exclamation mark is the upper case in the key above the Q key. My bad.
Rod says, ‘It is more about deeply rooted attitudes to sexual orientations and less about scriptural authority.’
I can’t speak for all conservatives, but when I was on the traditional side of this question, the issue of scriptural authority was front and centre for me. And I didn’t change my mind until Karen Keen, Marcus Green and others showed me a different way to read the Bible.
That is interesting Tim. For a time I held to the concept of a ‘revealed morality’ on issues such as this. A classic Christian paradigm. However, it was not a different way of reading the bible that changed my thinking. It was researching sexuality from sociological and anthropological perspectives; but most especially it was talking with people who are actually members of sexual minorities, who they are, how they understand themselves, that allowed my position to evolve. That took some time and patience. 2LGBTQ+ voices were not exactly able to be open and available when I was a young person.… Read more »
I’ve been holding off on replying to this while I arranged my thoughts.
I strongly believe that the Holy Spirit does not only reveal things to us through Scripture or prayer; it also works through “secular” activities like science. I believe moments have occurred in history (and continue to occur) when the Spirit says, “Humanity has matured enough to understand the truth of this,” and helps some human being to “discover” something of the world–a human being such as Galileo, or Newton, or Curie, or Einstein, or Freud and Jung, or Kinsey.
New knowledge always brings with it new responsibility. The submission by the Royal College of Psychiatrists to the Church of England’s Listening Listening Exercise on Human Sexuality is of interest in this regard. See the conclusion below. The historical and continuing open oppression of LGBTQ+ communities has been/is harmful. Given it’s own history and current practice, the church could best make a contribution to social justice by repentance, apology and by drawing on a prophetic tradition and treat sexual minorities like everyone else. “In conclusion the evidence would suggest that there is no scientific or rational reason for treating LGB… Read more »
Never let science get in the way of a good prejudice.
Radio-Canada (Française) style sheet uses: LGBTQ+
I notice that the Government of Canada is now using: 2SLGBTQI+ (see link).
https://women-gender-equality.canada.ca/en/free-to-be-me/federal-2slgbtqi-plus-action-plan.html
The “orthodox” opponents of this use the ever-evolving/expanding mix of letters as a way to ridicule: for example LGBQ-XYZ, or a variation thereof, appears frequently.
Yes, I know. Sad. I try and look at style sheet advice. This goes back to a practice from very early days, for example, The Canadian Style: A Guide to Writing and Editing (1985). These were issued by Canada’s dept. of the Secretary of State. The current version from the Canadian government site is explained in the earlier link. Two Spirit occurs first in part because of the Truth and Reconciliation Process. Local news for the Atlantic Provinces/L’Acadie is often language linked. There are important stories that often have a particular perspective in French, hence the Radio-Canada (Française) reference.(see link)… Read more »
Runcorn quotes well regarded NT scholar Timothy Luke Johnson, ” …this scapegoating of homosexuality has less to do with sex than with perceived threats to the authority of Scripture and the Church”. However, I can’t agree with that. It’s the reverse. Why isn’t this ‘progressive splaining’? How would you know? I agree with my former colleague. I am now ‘conservative splaining’? Better to agree with McIntyre, Whose Justice, Which Rationality? when it comes to some high ground of objectivity, without splaining. (I also agree with LTJ that the Bible is opposed to same-sex relations. He just says it’s out of… Read more »
David Runcorn provides a link in a footnote to Luke Timothy Johnson’s article in, Commonweal. I’ve put the link in this comment as well. It is interesting to read Johnson’s entire article. I’ll come back to that. David Runcorn notes in his third para: “In the Church of England at least, any discussion about these ‘perceived threats’ needs to include male power” Heterosexual males have privilege in the church. I’m not sure that my explanation as a heterosexual male to other heterosexual males is the best example of ‘splaining’; but I take your point. I have no desire to question… Read more »
Thank you for acknowledging the point is contested, on both sides. You have made your presuppositions abundantly clear all along. They are not my own, as you will have gathered.
Luke Johnson has a generous and upbeat personality and he left his order in the RCC to get married.
I do not agree with his evaluation of Acts 15 and have said so in print and on panel discussions with him. He is a very civil, respectful, and intelligent interlocutor.
A model for exchanges here.
Professor Seitz
I know of Johnson only through some of his books. I found him very helpful and interesting a number of years ago, his book The Real Jesus re the historical Jesus. I was in a different place at that time; but his scholarship is formidable and his writing style clear minded. I read Commonweal. I find the articles very refreshing, no more so than Johnson’s 2007 article referenced here by David Runcorn. cheers.
Thanks Rod, interesting comments as always. Can I come back on two points. You are right that it is helpful to have people “in the room” to speak on a subject from their experience, whether the subject is gender, race and ethnicity, or related to LGBTQ+ issues. But it is not just that people’s experience is nor being heard, there is extensive academic research that is not being heard also. The earliest book on my shelves about homosexuality is from 1894, and the earliest one about homosexuality and religion is dated 1911, both by the retired Anglican priest Edward Carpenter.… Read more »
I’m grateful for the additional resources you highlight. More for someone like me to learn for sure. If we have learned anything from the Truth and Reconciliation process in Canada it is that a culture can be made invisible, voices not heard, stories not told, art and literature suppressed.
The same thing applies to members of the 2LGBTQ+ communities in the churches.
According to tradition Jesus’s ministry lasted 3 years. The Gospels record only a tiny fraction of His formal ministry and nothing of His adult life before then. Presumably that’s by the design of the Spirit.
I have come to realise that it’s unreasonable to expect the Gospels to have detailed answers to our questions. That’s obviously not how they were intended to be used, but that’s what conservatives are attempting to do.
This, dear Kate! The Gospels, as all the Bible books, were written as a marvelous Catechism about Human Salvation. Never your own “life user manual”. We born without “user manual”… It’s up to us to write our own “Life User Manual” which will only to be done the day we present ourselves to our Lord on Eternity!… The Bible can to be such a wonderful guide… But that’s it! Let it to have such a positive meaning for all of us, and let all that anger and negativity to go away. Those conevos just want the Bible to be what… Read more »
I’m intrigued by the comment about David and Jonathan – seriously, what textual evidence is there in the OT Hebrew that they may have been sexual lovers? The idea has occasionally occured to me, but I dismissed that as simply being my carnal mind. That phrase in psalm 147, v10 about God ‘taking no pleasure in the legs of a man’ has always puzzled me as well. And, curiously, I don’t think I’ve ever heard it mentioned in a sermon, either……
John, This is a thing I have commented on before on Thinking Anglicans, so if you excuse me I will simply link to a couple of previous threads, and invite you to scroll down to find my posts in those threads. The basic issue is that until recently traditional Christian scholarship held that same sex love was unthinkable, and so when scholars translated Biblical Hebrew and Greek into English, the translations were made in a way that excluded any suggestion of same sex love and LGBTQ activity, even if the original Hebrew or Greek pointed that way. It is only… Read more »
Thank you very much for your reply, Simon. You may have realised, I’m not a trained theologian (frequent disclaimer); a moderately intelligent layman who reads this site in order to gain better understanding of what this is all about. Given that my church background is trad. evangelical, and very negative about gay rights etc, there are times when I feel I’m very much out on a limb in most of my Christian social circles – and, sadly, some of my friends are pretty rigidly ‘anti’ any change from the EA/CEEC stance. I suppose this is, inevitably, the result of Caxton,… Read more »
I think David R’s work is far removed from ‘straightsplaining’ – I believe he would very much acknowledge the value of the theological thinking done by people who are LGBT+ ourselves, though picking up on Simon’s point I believe the historical record is not nearly as clear as is often assumed. However even for those of us who have long grappled with these issues, I find his writing can be helpful in articulating the reasons for being affirming and explaining these to people from a ‘conservative’ background. I would also encourage people who are not LGBT+ to keep pointing out… Read more »
David Runcorn (and comments): Like stepping outside into evening sunshine and a refreshing breeze after spending too long in a gloomy and increasingly stuffy study. Thank you.
Perfectly put.
Yes, very well said. While David Runcorn’s tradition isn’t my own, I have immense respect for his contributions to evangelicalism, and they’re always a pleasure to read.
His article on sex before marriage is particularly relevant to my context. I am particularly taken by his characterization of marriage as the “crowning of a relationship”. That’s a very healthy way of looking at it. Here in Quebec, the majority of couples do not marry or declare a civil union. And that is despite the fact that, while Canadian federal law recognizes common-law relationships, Quebec law does not provide marital rights to “conjoint(e)s de fait”. For the most part, there has been great silence from the conservative side on the issue. Most priests opposed to same-sex marriage have gladly… Read more »
I would second that – I thoroughly enjoyed all three of his pieces.
David Runcorn’s article is just so helpful and two things stood out for me. Firstly his point about salvation. “There has always been an anxiety about authority within the evangelical tradition. This is understandable. So much is at stake. It is reminiscent of the Puritan struggles over the Assurance of Salvation. Assurance was extolled so highly as the defining gift of grace they were constantly anxious as to whether they had really received it. The more you stress the absolute authority of the bible, the higher the concerns will be over the ‘right’ interpretation, the greater the likelihood of disagreement, and the struggle to… Read more »
Something Professor Seitz, of course, has never said.
Please find someone else to ad hominem with, and bear true witness. Your constant reference to me is tiring, and odd.
Christopher, I didn’t say you had said anything actually. I was referring to what I had said. The conversation was interesting and helpful. No ad hominem at all.
Heve a wonderful Sunday
Andrew aka Canon Godsall – who believes that respect is implied by the use of Christian names on a Christian website.
“We can’t build a whole ecclesiastical polity based around different views on human sexuality.”
That is an excellent point and one that I robustly agree. This is not about human sexuality.
Canon Godsall, would you please leave me out of your comments? I’d appreciate that.
Thank you.
Let me pray for those in your canonry who are in your care. It is good to know your vocation and your charge, Canon Godsall. I have not understood your role and how it relates to your personal comments directly to me. This helps me understand a blogger I do not know.
Christopher I am retired.
But thank you.
If we happen to both comment on the same topic there will be no way to leave you out of comments and neither do I see the necessity to do so.
“Andrew aka Canon Godsall – who believes that respect is implied by the use of Christian names on a Christian website.”
I really agree with this, Andrew.
Yes. I hate when people refer to ‘Welby’. He is Justin. Or Justin Welby. I appreciate that there is an ‘old school’ tradition of calling people by just their surnames. I heard a lot of that at my posh school when I was growing up. But I do fear sometimes people resort to surname-only when criticising a person they disagree with, in a way taking the first steps along the road of de-personalisation and objectification of the other. I think using Christian / First Names helps in Christian discourse, because it reminds me of the individual as a person. I… Read more »
The Delany sisters, African-American women who reached 100 years of age, wrote a delightful book in which they said that their parents always called each other Mr and Mrs to avoid anyone learning their Christian names. (Their father was the first African-American bishop consecrated in TEC.) White folk were always addressed and referred to as Mr and Mrs; slaves and later all non-whites were generally called by their first names, including in courts of law. The openness and lack of formality is in some situations regarded as disrespectful, particularly to people of a certain age. I think it’s best to… Read more »
I cannot believe TA is engaged in a discussion like this; must be nothing else better to do! “The openness and lack of formality is in some situations regarded as disrespectful, particularly to people of a certain age. I think it’s best to adhere to cultural and personal preferences.” Thank you. It’s hardly the case that a blog is genuinely person-to-person. I have no idea who ‘Kate’ or ‘Susannah’ or ‘Andrew’ are. In many ways, speaking of a ‘Canon X’ tells me more about who they really are. Canon Godsall routinely engages in very personal comments that I do not… Read more »
I Don’t recognise much of what you say here Christopher, I’m afraid. I think a blog can be all kinds of things but has the capacity to be very much person to person. That is particularly true when one talks about deeply personal things like marriage and sexuality – which are two of the things that David Runcorn has written on and are the subject of many comments here. The problem that many of us are concerned about – and David spells it out very lucidly and gently – is that some parts of the C of E and the… Read more »
Thank you for your views, Canon Andrew Godsall, and those of others.
We just don’t inhabit the same frame of reference.
And we see both practices at work here at TA. Thankfully. To use a favorite word from today, it’s ‘inclusive.’
Keep calm and carry on.
The press references to ‘Mr Welby’ really do jar, and I wonder whether this is a very recent phenomenon. The I remember that his predecessors were Dr Williams and Dr Carey. Similarly the last two Popes were sometimes referred to, quite respectfully, as Dr Ratzinger and Dr Wojtila when in office. It is very unusual to have an ABC and Pope, neither of whom hold doctorates.
Surely all Popes while in office are invariably known as, and referred to, by their regnal name: Benedict XVI, John Paul II and, currently, simply Francis, none of those being their baptismal names. Previously they were known as ‘Cardinal Ratzinger’, etc.
In the C of E of my youth, all bishops and other clergy were known as and addressed by their surname with the ’handle’ appropriate to their office. That has gradually changed and one hopes that whatever form is currently in vogue, it will be respectful.
Wojtila and Ratzinger were both published theologians and as such are referred to by those names in academic works.
Actually, to be accurate, the Archbishop of Canterbury does hold a doctorate but because it was awarded honoris causa it is not customary to refer to him as Dr Welby.
Not customary? By what standards? Isn’t Archbishop an honorary title?
The German custom in medical science has much to commend it. A medically qualified professor with PhD and DSc would be Herr Professor Dr Dr Dr Frederick Flintstone, for example. (I am merely Dr Dr). Used in ecclesiastical circles this would facilitate an invaluable criterion for monitoring by those who are under the illusion that degrees signify anything of value, whereas as any fule kno they mean little more than (1) having been on a conveyor belt, or (2) having received the plaudits of Rabbit’s Friends and Relations. Thus, a bishop with DD, PhD and DrTheol from elsewhere would be… Read more »
Most interesting, Dr. Dr. The conversation reminds me of a very popular band from not that long ago. Mr. Mister. For their jingle, Kyrie, see link. Also reminds of Robert Louis Stevenson’s character who was both Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I’m partial to the Bugs Bunny version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NDjt4FzFWY
Not having read carefully your message, I clicked on the link expecting Mr Bunny but found Mr Mr. Sal volatile was required, for such joy and enthusiasm is simply not C of E. Mr Bunny’s Hyde and Hare seems not to be on Youtube, other than the top and tail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PJLo_mpiDk. My favourite Mr Bunny is What’s Opera, Doc? It combines several characteristics of today’s C of E, nnmely deception, persecution, dressing up, tragicomedy and at least one doctorate. Again, Youtube has only beginning and end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJI_gygXsfs
Unfortunately, the lack of availability on YouTube has to do with, As Grace Slick (Jefferson Airplane/Starship) wails with that mezzo-sporano voice, “Someone’s always playing corporation games…”. Oh for the Saturdays of my youth watching Bugs with my dad. See link for corporate news.
https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/4/23538749/hbo-max-looney-tunes-flintstones-warner-bros-discovery-s
treaming
I understand that the ‘correct’ way of referring to clergy is to use their full title on first mention and thereafter as Mr/Mrs/Dr/Sir/Lord/Prof etc plus Surname. So I am The Reverend (once The Revered in a wedding’s order of service!) Mary Hancock on first mention and thereafter Mrs or Ms (if you have to) Hancock. So Mr, or Dr, Welby is correct in subsequent mentions. But there many, less formal ways people use to refer to a cleric in real life, as is evident from this blog.
That is certainly correct for clergy in priest’s orders, but according to Crockfords (and Debretts), a bishop should be referred to as Bishop (surname) or the Bishop of (see). I think that the Daily Mail’s use of Mr Welby rather than Archbishop Welby is probably purposefully contemptuous. Of course the current trend, started by bishops about twenty years ago to try and make themselves more cuddly, is to use the form Bishop (Christian Name). This has by analogy been extended to other offices, so we have ‘Archdeacon Janet’, ‘Canon Jim’, ‘Dean Dave’ etc. I expect this custom will soon migrate… Read more »
It’s rather nice to have some lighter moments introduced in TA and to raise a chuckle, particularly when there are serious safeguarding issues to be addressed by Synod and expecting fresh cases. I am a Glaswegian, Presbyterian until my move south some 40 years ago. It’s been a steep learning curve for me within CofE (communion weekly instead of 4 times yearly and The Bishops leading their flock… Bishops were expelled by CofS around 1638) and in performing some roles therein. I have the skin of a rhinoceros, Kalashnikovs and flamethrowers in my hands ( sometimes) and have been addressed… Read more »
I agree with your comment.
Could I suggest it is also a present, particular trend in England? Wanting to be more ‘cuddly’ as you put it, and ‘casting off formalities.’
Those of us who do not have ‘your royal highness’, ‘your eminence’ and so forth are not on this same flight pattern.
I’d cringe at ‘Professor (first-name).’
Offices come with responsibilities. That is why titles matter. It reminds the holder of their public duties.
The late Jim Thompson was, when he was Bishop of Bath & Wells, universally “Bishop Jim”, so the trend, if trend it be, is at least 30 years old.
Here in my Hebridean fastness our local police officer is known by his first name, and our GPs (whether serving or retired) are almost always Doc [firstname]. The only place archaic formalism survives is the school.
Of course it’s hardly surprising that books of etiquette remain not just in the last century but the one before that.
Thanks Jo, that is a helpful reminder. I joined the BBC 46 years ago for my first career and on the first day three things were explained to us. Everybody refers to everybody else by their Christian name. It doesn’t matter if they are the director general or the person who cleans the studio floor. Everybody eats in the same canteen. There must be no discrimination between men and women. How fascinating then to enter the CofE 11 years later to find that none of those three applied. I know the organisation I first joined has changed a lot since… Read more »
TA dives down this rabbit hole periodically. Some pre-Reformation archbishops had doctorates, often of canon or civil law, but some did not (Thomas Arundel, for instance, was a BA). It was only after the second half of the 16th century, when Matthew Parker (DTh/DD) succeeded Reginald, Card. Pole (BA) in 1559 that doctorates became ubiquitous. And the more ubiquitous they became, the more flimsy the academic foundations on which they rested: by the 18th century a banal volume of sermons would suffice for an ‘earned’ DD; the primary challenge for the applicant was the hefty fee to the paid to… Read more »
Thanks, as always. Nice to widen the lens. I am not retired. The world I inhabit involves me being addressed as Professor Seitz (in that context), Canon Seitz (in another one), Father Seitz (in another). My Christian name is for those I know. I do not believe blogs are personal surrogates. They are comment boards. I wonder if England is envying the mate-y feel of the New World and enjoying casting off its formalities. That is fine, but it is not my frame of reference. I don’t believe it is necessary, in any event, in addressing people at all (whether… Read more »
In my own post, I referred to ‘Mr Welby’ as less than respectful by comparing its use to the usual honorific ‘Cardinal’ or ‘Archbishop’ when referring to Roman Catholic prelates. Newspapers are likely to get things incorrect because religion reporters also cover politics and theatre these days, whereas 20 years ago a religion reporter specialized in religion and likely had training in religious topics. Today, most readers of newspapers aren’t savvy enough to recognize disrespect.
Thank you, that is interesting. I had often wondered why there were so many clerical DDs in previous centuries, especially among bishops, because the only DDs I have known were outstanding theologians or biblical scholars, including my own Oxford doctoral supervisor. I did know one suffragan bishop in Canterbury diocese who was a primary school teacher before ordination. He was given an honorary doctorate by some university (Birmingham, I think) and thereafter insisted on being styled ‘The Right Reverend Dr’.
Many thanks to Anglican Priest, Richard and James for useful and helpful comments. I should just add one final historical point: the number of doctorates held by dignitaries was inflated by something even more discreditable than the doling out of DDs with the rations, and that was the manipulation of the DCL at Oxford and the LLD at Cambridge and Dublin. In order to obtain a BD it was first necessary to have received the degree of MA (and to preach a Latin sermon) and then a person wanting to proceed to DD would have to wait a further extended… Read more »
I went to a local grammar school where staff addressed pupils by surnames only – in axactly the same way that convicted criminals are/were. (No, we didn’t go as far as having numbers) In such circumstances, surely, its a put-down, an expression of superiority and, conversely, demeaning the persons addressed? I personally dislike being addresses as ‘sir’ – even though respectful; I much prefer first names.
Thank you John. Yes, I agree with you that when teachers in our day called us by our surnames alone that could be as assertion of authority. My memory is that the use of surnames also applied – as a convention – when adults addressed other adults. So, for example, Dr Watson might say: “so Holmes, what makes you think he stole the jewels?” etc. It seems to be that it was all part of convention in the past tied up with a society that used formality and emotional distance as part of its way of upholding its ordered, hierarchical,… Read more »
Thank you Kate. I think it is an essential part of relating as Christians.
Look, this is a blog! People will do whatever they want to do, regardless. That’s part of the blog terrain. If someone is Fr David, I will call them by this name, if I bother to address them directly (which also does not happen much, except with you, who like to call me by my first-name when it isn’t at all necessary to make your point). I am glad there are ‘Froghole’ and ‘Struggling Anglican’ and ‘Innocent Observer’ and so forth, as well as slews of people who choose not to give their surnames. And I honor that choice. That… Read more »
We’re all formed by our experience and context. When I use first names and invite people to use mine, I’m not being cuddly, I’m being normal. It would be seen as unusually pretentious if I insisted people call me by a title and a surname all the time. So, dear Anglican Priest, I have heard your preference and will honour it. My own preference is to be addressed by my first name. And I would also add that people come to blogs for different reasons. Some come simply to exchange and discuss ideas. You are apparently one of them. But… Read more »
I’m perfectly happy to be addressed by anything, other that ‘hey, you.”
In my work for the DVLA once, having been helping a policeman with inquiries about a rogue haulier, he remarked, “You are are an absolute, outright, utter B******. I LIKE you.” To which I replied, “Thank you, constable. Professional compliments are always welcome……”
I just want to say, all driving licences are up to date in our household, sir. And MOT. And anything else. And you are a very, very nice person. Yes. Definitely. I hope you have a nice day, your honour.
I’m slowly working through the links which Simon Dawson very kindly sent me, so I’m a little behind with this one. So much of this resonates with past experiences of my own – particularly in terms of ‘scriptural authority’ and ‘assurance’. A great deal of my Christian input came from the moderate charismatic wing, but even there there was a strong emphasis on obedience to God’s sovereignty and word. And, being by nature a very insecure person, that helped reinforce a desperate need to ‘get the doctrines right’. So many of these phrases, like ‘assurance of salvation’ are a convenient… Read more »
Amidst all the love for David Runcorn’s first and third essays, I want to show a lot of love for essay number two, to ensure it is not forgotten. David states what should be blindingly obvious to most thinking people, with quiet precision.
How can it help the authority of the churches to have various rules, such as sex outside of marriage, a ban on contraception, or (I would argue) priestly celibacy, when those same rules are quietly but discretely ignored by a large number of people to which they apply?
I agree Simon. There is a huge difference between teaching that marriage is between a woman and a man and that sex should only occur within marriage and the terrible mess “issues in human sexuality” got us into. Saying that a priest can enter a civil partnership but must make an explicit declaration to remain celibate does two things. For the first time in the history of the Church of England we have first and second class priests. Secondly it actively promotes distrust between priest and bishop because if you say two people can live together as wife and wife… Read more »
It is also disrespectful to a cleric’s civil partner who is also required to remain celibate despite not (necessarily) being in orders themself.
Thank you Kate. The sheer offence that the Church can cause to partners seems too often to be glossed over. They may feel demeaned, they may feel sidelined. Their devotion and givenness may seem like a second-class thing (and sometimes described as perverse and a sin)… not good enough for marriage in church. And what if they are not active Christians? Is it even reasonable in such cases to expect them to live as if called to celibacy? Partners have lives too, have feelings, and frankly deserve to be able to express their tender love in sexual intimacy. If they’re… Read more »
Thank you Susannah and Kate. I confess that I had previously only thought of it from the priests perspective. You raise a very important point. I hope the House of Bishops will reflect on the harm they have caused. It’s a bit to easy to say “the Church” hasn’t been welcoming enough and deflect attention from the personal responsibility of the bishops for the dreadful “issues in human sexuality”. This document was completely unnecessary and has damaged lives. Our sister churches in Wales, Ireland and Scotland never introduced an equivalent measure. It’s much too easy to hide behind the bible… Read more »
David also has an excellent piece on Genesis 1 at the BRF website here.