on Wednesday, 22 January 2025 at 11.31 am by Peter Owen
categorised as Opinion
Theo HobsonThe TabletMiddling along – renewing the C of E
“The ascendancy of the evangelicals is over – but what comes next?”
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I know we American Episcopalians are but distant “Thinking Anglicans” Across The Pond, but I thought that the Bishop of Washington DC’s prophetic dressing down of POTUS to his face might be worthy of a link?
I was quite surprised when I first read that Bishop Budde was going to be the preacher at this service. This was an “interfaith” service, not an Episcopal service. It has traditionally been held in the Washington National Cathedral, largely because it has a large seating capacity. Indeed, the cathedral was intended from its beginning to hold national services like this, The “officiants” at such services are generally Episcopal clergy and there’s at least a patina of Episcopal liturgy. But beyond that, there’s no requirement that the preacher be Episcopalian and the preacher often isn’t. For example, the preacher at… Read more »
I doubt the President will be returning. The Episcopal Church has given us a masterclass in how to alienate rather than encourage. Not the way to evangelise.
That makes no sense, frankly. The President was thrilled to be invited to Notre Dame and said as much. I agree with William’s brief comment. The odd ‘national cathedral’ service may be on its last legs — except for state funerals. It is hard to editorialize those from a pulpit, and often the preacher is invited for the occasion.
I was biased by a youtube video criticising the organ flourishes celebrating the reawakening of the organ. It showed various people sneering, incl. Trump. I loved it, but modern improvisation was probably a new experience for Trump and many others.
I’m doubt this was a big opportunity for evangelism in the first place. As Trump’s sister once noted, “The only time Donald went to church was when the cameras were there.” https://www.vice.com/en/article/trumps-sister-thought-his-blatant-racism-would-stop-him-from-becoming-president-book-says/ Actually, I thought her comments were relatively mild — she asked only that Trump show mercy. By contrast, the Pope called Trump’s mass deportation plan a “disgrace.” https://apnews.com/article/vatican-immigration-trump-pope-d3516b41de56641391f59c2094ee380e And the cardinal archbishop of Washington called those plans “incompatible with Catholic doctrine.” https://www.newsweek.com/mass-deportations-incompatible-catholic-doctrine-archbishop-2010908 So I expect Trump won’t be going to a Roman Catholic church any time soon, either. Unlike his comments about Bishop Budde, however, Trump, didn’t make… Read more »
Look at it from another angle. She gave a masterly demonstration of calling a spade a spade and publicly holding a corrupt man to account.
She belongs to the same honourable group as the bishop (or archbishop) of Berlin, who treated Hitler in the same way, and amazingly so frightened the dictator that he dared not harm him
He wouldn’t be returning in any case. He only attends church when his position requires it. He was baptized as a Lutheran, I believe, but has not been a regular congregant of any church in decades.
Actually I think it might prove to have been effective evangelism. Many Americans have been put off by the right-wing Trump-loving brand of evangelicalism, and have now seen a very different side of Christianity.
He needs to be encouraged in conversion and salvation as we all do. The Episcopal Church seems to be encouraging when it comes to nice progressives with the right opinions and extremely judgmental when it comes to nasty conservatives. I think the Old Testament prophets were less partial. They challenged everyone and suffered for it.
Bishop Budde challenged a man who professes to be a Christian (and those “Christians” among his supporters) to more closely follow the example of Jesus, in practicing love and mercy and compassion.
Bp Budde was not judgmental. Her appeal to Trump was gentle and mild in tone, and she didn’t condemn him at all. She merely asked him, possibly the most powerful man in the world, to have mercy on the suffering. Contrast that with Jesus calling Herod ‘that fox’.
Thank you for this. Difficult to quite know how to say this. You seem to know a lot about evangelism. I’m not disagreeing with you. But neither am I deferring to you. Two observations. Firstly accross a very large swath of “secular” news formats this week (by “secular” I mean non Church ones) there has been a huge amount of coverage of Bishop Budde ‘s sermon. The editorial comments have been all positive. On all of the comments threads below these posts have been comments with words like “I’m an atheist/don’t do church/etc and I am very impressed by this… Read more »
Thank you for your response Lottie. I would say that your experience of positive feedback from atheists really backs up what I am trying to say. The leaders of the episcopal church are progressives. Atheists tend to be progressives. The result is that a progressive form of Anglicanism will resonate very powerfully with a progressive from of atheism. They believe in the same things. The problem for Bishop Budde is that Trump will have worked this out and simply won’t listen to her. Maybe she isn’t bothered. She is certainly receiving a lot of applause from like-minded people. But aren’t… Read more »
Good to hear an authentic, not so distant, Christian voice. Hopefully more will find the courage to speak out with love and compassion, which represents the true soul of America. As I look out across the sea from where I live I can easily imagine the Mayflower, containing the hopes and dreams of the founding families as they head down the coast towards Plymouth before leaving for America, and with them the freedom and courage to create a new, but fragile future. The future always remains fragile, but faith, hope and love always endure. A message worth reflecting on as… Read more »
DAVID HAWKINS
30 days ago
Theo Hobson describes the various strands of Top Down theology that dominate the Church of England. From Anglo Catholic, to Liberal and HTB evangelical they have one thing in common: an elite (mostly male and often the product elite public schools) fight amongst themselves about the direction that our national church should take. What Hobson ignores is the possibility of a bottom up renewal of the Anglican Communion. “Living in Love and Faith” was a missed opportunity. LLF proved to be Top Down masquerading as Bottom Up. One small event stands out in my experience of 2024. During a wonderful… Read more »
Thank you Colin again for your words of encouragement. Perhaps there will be others who respond to the ‘looser god’ model. So much of the Church offers certainty and rigidity. So much of my own journey tells me that our religious experience shapes itself in elusiveness, unnameability and transitional liminality. But I’m a sucker for the dark of the via negativa. Because I’m not an academic (school dropout owing to abuse history) – I’ve had to learn to feel my way along the edges of words and find language that fits as best it can. We should get together and… Read more »
I love your poem/hymn, Gilo, and thank you for your affirming comments. I think we should get together! Robert and I and three others met over a year ago to talk about God and language, imagery and metaphors, one afternoon. I’m always open to the value of such a conversation and long for a movement to bring health and love to the centre of Christian life. There is something symbolic about the thread on the two blogs posted this day to be taken over largely by comments about Trump and a prophetic woman Episcopal bishop. The closest any comment comes… Read more »
I don’t know whether this article misrepresents the democrats or not, but overall it covers the ground. My main problem with Trump is the lies and the insurrection. But the democrats? In my direct experience, USA remains a quasi-slave society. If you are at the bottom, it is a daily struggle. Get a flat tire? Can’t afford to fix it? Can’t get to work? You have sunk. Same if you can’t afford gas for car. Or if you get a ticket and car is towed. Cost to get car out of pond? Hundreds. Get sick? Need medication? Can’t afford the… Read more »
The Democrats have proposed lots to fix those things…but the USA remains a roughly 50-50 political demographic and, thus, passing those proposals in their strongest iterations is difficult. Compromise is always required.
The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) could have been America’s version of the NHS…but Republicans oppose anything that would put healthcare in the hands of the government.
Your description of the late-rent situation is grossly inaccurate. In most jurisdictions, there are legal restrictions on penalties for late payments and eviction can take months (if not years) to occur and the law requires mediation in most cases.
Not true in Texas. I have a friend right now who is looking at how to sleep in their car. I have many examples of gross late fees. Not every state is the same. Parts of USA are simply full of thieves.
Texas eviction takes something like 5 days after rent is due.
The linked post could well have been written by any one of Trump’s speechwriters (such as they are). It distorts and caricatures liberal and Democratic positions into parody.
A question for those opposed to “open immigration”: Would you have the same position if today’s influx of immigrants to the US were coming from your own ancestral homes–the UK, France, Germany, Italy (remembering that Italians and Irish were not well received when THEY were the primary nationalities immigrating)?
The immigrants coming from those countries went through the processes for legal entry. My own German relatives. Etc. You may ask yourself why so many Hispanics voted for Trump. They resented doing what was necessary legally to be here, and then to watch all the illegal crossing. And crime and drugs and massive burdening of the social services in place where Americans struggle to make ends meet. The group most injured by this legal enforcement? Drug Cartels. Let me pose a question. If the Europeans you mention came in illegally and then committed horrible crimes, would you be opposed to… Read more »
“The immigrants coming from those countries went through the processes for legal entry. My own German relatives. Etc.” In a period when those processes were far less stringent, and when avoiding them was far simpler. I know, for example, that some of my Irish ancestors arrived here “on the night boat” as the phrase went. And my Venezuelan grandfather undoubtedly violated the terms of his visa, which is why he had to marry my grandmother and then abandon her and her daughter. It was far easier to become a legal resident and then a citizen in the days before WWI… Read more »
Mr O’Neill, I have lived and worked and renewed visas in France, Germany, Canada, and the UK. It is hard work. If you fail to go through proper procedures–I see my wife in a wheelchair at the Prefecture in Evry, in a line about 300 metres long, with snow falling, fat file of documents in her lap, for an annual renewal– you cannot stay. I did the same drill in the UK in order to get a ‘Leave to Remain Indefintely’ stamp in my passport. I and my employer at the University of St Andrews had to do enormous work.… Read more »
The US is very much unlike all those countries (or used to be). The US is a nation of immigrants (save for the indigenous tribes) and we once prided ourselves on our open, welcoming borders. (Yes, there have been exceptions–the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Japanese internment. No nation is perfect.) But we once proudly placed on perhaps our greatest national monument: “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”[12] Unfortunately, we now have… Read more »
The Statue of Liberty was given by the French to celebrate American Independence.
I think modern Europeans would be surprised to learn that the present immigration crisis is unique to the US.
I am confused about your avoidance of the topic of legal immigration. Which all of these countries seek to regulate, and that we always did as well.
When someone like Eric Adams, or African Americans in Chicago suburbs, or Hispanics in Texas say, this problem is out of control and we–not white liberals–are bearing the brunt of it, are their voices not to be heard?
It’s a question of how they regulate it and against whom.
And I think the people mentioned in your last paragraph may have a surprise coming when they discover that the authorities managing Trump’s program of regulation are not quite as careful to make distinctions between groups of immigrants.
One of the detainees was a U.S. military veteran “who suffered the indignity of having the legitimacy of his military documentation questioned,” Baraka said in a statement. “Newark will not stand by idly while people are being unlawfully terrorized.”
“For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.”
“But, Lord, you didn’t follow the right legal process…”
I struggle with jesus words on economics and finance. His accounts of servants writing off debts. His advice to sell everything and give to the poor. What happens when you have a wife and family and dependents ? Jesus doesnt seem to mention these. I am asking seriously and in faith.
Same with open immigration. Accept anybody with no process? Is that what jesus would gave urged ?
Indeed. As I recall, the parents of Jesus followed Roman Law and took an arduous journey to do so, to be enrolled in the mandatory census. And because of obedience to this legal arrangement, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, as the prophets had foretold.
But when they were faced with the prospect of their child being killed by a tyrant appointed by this same Roman law, they fled to Egypt, disregarding the legal constraints.
It was not me who decided that somehow Matthew’s descent to Egypt was somehow relevant. Which for him, was about the fulfillment of scripture. As Israel went down to Egypt, so to the True Israel.
Looks to me from reading the gospel that the answer is yes. He was a really uncomfortable person to engage with. But also ‘pay your taxes’. So we toddle off and reconfigure what was said to fit with our current concerns.
yes, I seem to remember from my youth various sermons which water down what Jesus was saying. Richs and eye of the needle? Of course, Jesus was just testing the centurion, he didn’t really mean it. Anybody know how Jesus and his disciples lived? How did they eat, where did they live? Was it all dependent on generosity of followers? There is so much missing from the gospels. Were any of the apostles married/children? What happened to Joseph? Jesus’ brothers? i am sure some scholars here have some answers or speculations. But I also predict that those called to give… Read more »
Writing off debts refers to the importance of using money to make bonds of friendship of those in need and the giving away of everything to the poor refers to a would be disciple of Jesus whose possessions would be of no use to him, and indeed a hinderance, as Jesus and his disciples walked around from place to place. Presumably he didn’t have any dependents in the same way Jesus’ other disciples didn’t. Context is everything, but all you don’t need should be given to your neighbour who is in need , otherwise your wealth and possessions might become… Read more »
Yes, I know all that, but it doesn’t help. I read it as the usual watering down.
Take an example. In modern Britain, for a house owner the house is the biggest asset. Should we sell the house and rent a place and give to the poor? Or let children inherit it so they have somewhere to live? Or open the doors and give shelter to the homeless?
Or should we live in communes with shared posessions? How does that work?
Did Jesus anywhere talk about families and dependents?
Jesus deals with individuals; to some he says follow me closely, to others he says go back to your family and community and tell them what God has done for you. There are different vocations for different people in the Gospel just as there are different vocations in the Church today. The invitation to the rich young man to give up all his possessions is an invitation to the kind of Christian perfection that only some are called to follow. Obviously this would be impractical (and wrong) for someone whose vocation was to family life. PS the parable about writing… Read more »
“If anybody comes to Me and doesn’t hate his own father, mother, wife, children, brother, sister, and even his own life, he can’t be My disciple. If you don’t carry your cross and come after Me, you can’t be My disciple.”
In order for the rich man to sell all his possessions and give to the poor, someone else had to a. have money to purchase them and then b. take on the role of possessing them.
Indeed, let’s, including having it drift into some alternate dimension in which all undocumented immigrants are rapists and/or drug dealers, or whatever demon you choose to align them with.
That’s the thing – not every illegal immigrant needs to be a murderer for illegal immigrant murderers to be a problem. If we are to take Jesus’ commandment to love our neighbour seriously – rather than to do as the Bishop does and limit your neighbour just to people like herself as well as her party favourites – then there are no either answers. Abut, that was the thrust of her sermon: that there are easy answers and that people who come to a different answer to her are simply lacking in ‘mercy’ because if they had ‘mercy’ they’d agree… Read more »
And moreover. she intentionally blurred the distinctions you make. Trump is a soul-less man, lacking compassion and mercy, toward some faceless ‘immigrant’ — as though ‘immigrant’ is someone fleeing X or Y and in need of mercy. If that were so, we could have a rational discussion about legal processes to become an American citizen, etc. She has shown no mercy toward all those whose lives have been forever ruined through murder and drugs imported across the border, grieving parents and loved ones, and she has simply elided them. Looking down from a pulpit with TV cameras, is not sitting… Read more »
That’s the thing – not every illegal immigrant needs to be a murderer for illegal immigrant murderers to be a problem.
MURDERERS are a problem, and NO ONE is saying they aren’t! What does this have to do w/ immigration?!
Let me repeat: the service in which Bishop Budde preached was by (Trump)-invitation only—to say nothing of the fact that only ONE person in the congregation was President of the United States! It’s absolutely a STRAW MAN to say the Bishop Budde was “limit[ing her] neighbour just to people like herself as well as her party favourites”. Projecting prejudices much?
The linked post could well have been written by any one of Trump’s speechwriters (such as they are). It distorts and caricatures liberal and Democratic positions into parody.
Exactly this. If parts of Teixeira’s piece were quoted here, I’d ask to have them taken down as hate speech (“biological boys”: as unscientific as it is bigoted).
And SHOCK! Teixeira is a Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. “The Liberal Patriot”? He’s no liberal, and I’d have to question to which country he owes his patriotism. To quote Nancy Pelosi (re the opposition party) “All Roads Lead to Putin…”
You complain too much. What is wrong with the term biological boys ? It is clear and easily understood. It means sex as distinct from gender – maybe. Not everybody is fully up to date in the correct terms to use in the gender warfare.
Chromosomes are not, and have never been, destiny. There have ALWAYS been XX boys, and XY girls (not to mention the many intersex conditions, both chromosomal and/or genetic).
Yes, I imagine newborns will continue overwhelmingly to be labeled “M” or “F” via a 10 second-or-less peek between the legs. But it’s ONLY a label, and should never equated some divinely-given Truth.
“Biological boys” or “… girls” is a reductio ad absurdum.
I’m mature enough not be easily offended. It was you who said the term ‘biological boys’ could be regarded as hate speech, and was offended enough to comment.
The vast majority would not.
Maybe we should start a conversation on moral philosophy?
I am in favor of accepting those who are seeking to escape persecution, for whatever reason–politics, religion, ethnicity. And yes, that persecution can, and often does, take the form of economic hardship
Becoming legally resident is a long process; it can take years, years during which those seeking to escape persecution must continue to endure it. That is the reason so many seek to enter the US some other way, either without documentation or by misusing a visa intended only for students or tourists. (BTW, the wait for even those sorts of visas can be quite lengthy, depending on which country you are applying from. Those from Commonwealth nations or the EU generally have a fast track, but if you are applying for a visa from Latin America, Africa, or some parts… Read more »
“Becoming legally resident is a long process; it can take years, years during which those seeking to escape persecution must continue to endure it. ” I would like some evidence on this. Becoming legally resident in any country is difficult and time consuming, As it well ought to be. Years, years? I know a lot about applying for visas. Countries in the Commonwealth and EU ‘have a fast track’ — well, because they are in the Commonwealth and EU, which has done the work to regulate this. Immigrants coming into these regions have to do all the work to enter and… Read more »
We are talking here about those seeking asylum from persecution and poverty (usually the result of the persecution).
There is a waiting list and a quota for resident visas from any country (under US law), and the wait to acquire one can, indeed, take years. (I speak based on a conversation with a friend who is a former consular officer, who worked in Benin and then Canada.)
It is also costly. Just saving enough to pay for the required documentation can be a years-long process.
“We are talking here about those seeking asylum from persecution and poverty (usually the result of the persecution).” No, in fact, the discussion has been about illegal immigrants grosso modo. The good Bishop made no distinctions. As for the length of time, it is difficult to have a visa and residential status in all countries. And people coming to this country for that reason have done the work necessary. Lobby for a quicker process? Have at it. No one would object. That would be a good solution. You alternative to this is to have open borders? If so, they do… Read more »
But if a large proportion of the population struggle with that, and there is a predictable ‘unforeseen’ consequence, what then? Individual actions and government actions are very different. I have said before, Trump and his cronies sicken me, but open borders would lead to civil war. I think AP has confirmed he is no Trump supporter. >50% of US voters supported Trump. They are not all misguided idiots. Many are serious people with a moral compass. Democrats need to listen. Same in UK. Be careful what you wish for. [I hated Farage ever since he quoted incorrect statistics on HIV… Read more »
I remember sitting in a colombian restaurant in Houston with an African American friend. There was a mexican family seated nearby. My friend was uncomfortable and referred to ‘dirty mexicans’. I think she may be a Trump supporter…we didn;t speak much after that.
i also seem to remember bush snr or jnr being fairly open to illegal migrants, for reasons of economics and lawn mowing.
I know we American Episcopalians are but distant “Thinking Anglicans” Across The Pond, but I thought that the Bishop of Washington DC’s prophetic dressing down of POTUS to his face might be worthy of a link?
https://episcopalnewsservice.org/2025/01/21/washington-bishops-plea-to-trump-have-mercy-upon-the-people-in-our-country-who-are-scared/
I was quite surprised when I first read that Bishop Budde was going to be the preacher at this service. This was an “interfaith” service, not an Episcopal service. It has traditionally been held in the Washington National Cathedral, largely because it has a large seating capacity. Indeed, the cathedral was intended from its beginning to hold national services like this, The “officiants” at such services are generally Episcopal clergy and there’s at least a patina of Episcopal liturgy. But beyond that, there’s no requirement that the preacher be Episcopalian and the preacher often isn’t. For example, the preacher at… Read more »
I doubt the President will be returning. The Episcopal Church has given us a masterclass in how to alienate rather than encourage. Not the way to evangelise.
I don’t think he liked Notre Dame too much either.
That makes no sense, frankly. The President was thrilled to be invited to Notre Dame and said as much. I agree with William’s brief comment. The odd ‘national cathedral’ service may be on its last legs — except for state funerals. It is hard to editorialize those from a pulpit, and often the preacher is invited for the occasion.
I was biased by a youtube video criticising the organ flourishes celebrating the reawakening of the organ. It showed various people sneering, incl. Trump. I loved it, but modern improvisation was probably a new experience for Trump and many others.
Jesus alienated liars and hypocrites. The bishop performed her role perfectly.
I’m doubt this was a big opportunity for evangelism in the first place. As Trump’s sister once noted, “The only time Donald went to church was when the cameras were there.” https://www.vice.com/en/article/trumps-sister-thought-his-blatant-racism-would-stop-him-from-becoming-president-book-says/ Actually, I thought her comments were relatively mild — she asked only that Trump show mercy. By contrast, the Pope called Trump’s mass deportation plan a “disgrace.” https://apnews.com/article/vatican-immigration-trump-pope-d3516b41de56641391f59c2094ee380e And the cardinal archbishop of Washington called those plans “incompatible with Catholic doctrine.” https://www.newsweek.com/mass-deportations-incompatible-catholic-doctrine-archbishop-2010908 So I expect Trump won’t be going to a Roman Catholic church any time soon, either. Unlike his comments about Bishop Budde, however, Trump, didn’t make… Read more »
Look at it from another angle. She gave a masterly demonstration of calling a spade a spade and publicly holding a corrupt man to account.
She belongs to the same honourable group as the bishop (or archbishop) of Berlin, who treated Hitler in the same way, and amazingly so frightened the dictator that he dared not harm him
He wouldn’t be returning in any case. He only attends church when his position requires it. He was baptized as a Lutheran, I believe, but has not been a regular congregant of any church in decades.
Actually I think it might prove to have been effective evangelism. Many Americans have been put off by the right-wing Trump-loving brand of evangelicalism, and have now seen a very different side of Christianity.
I have seen some evidence of that, Janet! 😇
Good. So have I!
In what does Trump need to be encouraged? And would your comment not also apply to the OT prophets?
He needs to be encouraged in conversion and salvation as we all do. The Episcopal Church seems to be encouraging when it comes to nice progressives with the right opinions and extremely judgmental when it comes to nasty conservatives. I think the Old Testament prophets were less partial. They challenged everyone and suffered for it.
Bishop Budde challenged a man who professes to be a Christian (and those “Christians” among his supporters) to more closely follow the example of Jesus, in practicing love and mercy and compassion.
It was an invitation-only service. Bishop Budde (or “+Washington DC” in more TA parlance) knew to whom she was preaching, and “encouraged conversion”.
Challenge everyone? I always heard the mission of a prophet was to “comfort the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable”!
Bp Budde was not judgmental. Her appeal to Trump was gentle and mild in tone, and she didn’t condemn him at all. She merely asked him, possibly the most powerful man in the world, to have mercy on the suffering. Contrast that with Jesus calling Herod ‘that fox’.
Thank you for this. Difficult to quite know how to say this. You seem to know a lot about evangelism. I’m not disagreeing with you. But neither am I deferring to you. Two observations. Firstly accross a very large swath of “secular” news formats this week (by “secular” I mean non Church ones) there has been a huge amount of coverage of Bishop Budde ‘s sermon. The editorial comments have been all positive. On all of the comments threads below these posts have been comments with words like “I’m an atheist/don’t do church/etc and I am very impressed by this… Read more »
Thank you for your response Lottie. I would say that your experience of positive feedback from atheists really backs up what I am trying to say. The leaders of the episcopal church are progressives. Atheists tend to be progressives. The result is that a progressive form of Anglicanism will resonate very powerfully with a progressive from of atheism. They believe in the same things. The problem for Bishop Budde is that Trump will have worked this out and simply won’t listen to her. Maybe she isn’t bothered. She is certainly receiving a lot of applause from like-minded people. But aren’t… Read more »
Good to hear an authentic, not so distant, Christian voice. Hopefully more will find the courage to speak out with love and compassion, which represents the true soul of America. As I look out across the sea from where I live I can easily imagine the Mayflower, containing the hopes and dreams of the founding families as they head down the coast towards Plymouth before leaving for America, and with them the freedom and courage to create a new, but fragile future. The future always remains fragile, but faith, hope and love always endure. A message worth reflecting on as… Read more »
Theo Hobson describes the various strands of Top Down theology that dominate the Church of England. From Anglo Catholic, to Liberal and HTB evangelical they have one thing in common: an elite (mostly male and often the product elite public schools) fight amongst themselves about the direction that our national church should take. What Hobson ignores is the possibility of a bottom up renewal of the Anglican Communion. “Living in Love and Faith” was a missed opportunity. LLF proved to be Top Down masquerading as Bottom Up. One small event stands out in my experience of 2024. During a wonderful… Read more »
That’s a good comment – remember David Shepherd and ‘Bias to the Poor’?
I do indeed, John and it is included in my sermon for Sunday based on the Gospel. A great and genuine man
Thank you Colin again for your words of encouragement. Perhaps there will be others who respond to the ‘looser god’ model. So much of the Church offers certainty and rigidity. So much of my own journey tells me that our religious experience shapes itself in elusiveness, unnameability and transitional liminality. But I’m a sucker for the dark of the via negativa. Because I’m not an academic (school dropout owing to abuse history) – I’ve had to learn to feel my way along the edges of words and find language that fits as best it can. We should get together and… Read more »
I love your poem/hymn, Gilo, and thank you for your affirming comments. I think we should get together! Robert and I and three others met over a year ago to talk about God and language, imagery and metaphors, one afternoon. I’m always open to the value of such a conversation and long for a movement to bring health and love to the centre of Christian life. There is something symbolic about the thread on the two blogs posted this day to be taken over largely by comments about Trump and a prophetic woman Episcopal bishop. The closest any comment comes… Read more »
Nice glimpse at the US from a devoted Liberal.
https://www.liberalpatriot.com/p/the-hills-the-left-will-die-on
I don’t know whether this article misrepresents the democrats or not, but overall it covers the ground. My main problem with Trump is the lies and the insurrection. But the democrats? In my direct experience, USA remains a quasi-slave society. If you are at the bottom, it is a daily struggle. Get a flat tire? Can’t afford to fix it? Can’t get to work? You have sunk. Same if you can’t afford gas for car. Or if you get a ticket and car is towed. Cost to get car out of pond? Hundreds. Get sick? Need medication? Can’t afford the… Read more »
The Democrats have proposed lots to fix those things…but the USA remains a roughly 50-50 political demographic and, thus, passing those proposals in their strongest iterations is difficult. Compromise is always required.
The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) could have been America’s version of the NHS…but Republicans oppose anything that would put healthcare in the hands of the government.
Your description of the late-rent situation is grossly inaccurate. In most jurisdictions, there are legal restrictions on penalties for late payments and eviction can take months (if not years) to occur and the law requires mediation in most cases.
Not true in Texas. I have a friend right now who is looking at how to sleep in their car. I have many examples of gross late fees. Not every state is the same. Parts of USA are simply full of thieves.
Texas eviction takes something like 5 days after rent is due.
Maybe not a week, but it is not months or a year.
https://texaslawhelp.org/article/eviction
This assumes the landlord acts legally.
https://www.doorloop.com/laws/texas-eviction-process
Then there are late fees and court fees.
Plus the lease itself may have unfair terms.
In some cases landlords will change locks and get rid of possessions or throw them out. They don’t play fair or by the law.
Doing it the legal way takes about 2 weeks minimum.
I think different counties also have different processes.
The linked post could well have been written by any one of Trump’s speechwriters (such as they are). It distorts and caricatures liberal and Democratic positions into parody.
A question for those opposed to “open immigration”: Would you have the same position if today’s influx of immigrants to the US were coming from your own ancestral homes–the UK, France, Germany, Italy (remembering that Italians and Irish were not well received when THEY were the primary nationalities immigrating)?
The immigrants coming from those countries went through the processes for legal entry. My own German relatives. Etc. You may ask yourself why so many Hispanics voted for Trump. They resented doing what was necessary legally to be here, and then to watch all the illegal crossing. And crime and drugs and massive burdening of the social services in place where Americans struggle to make ends meet. The group most injured by this legal enforcement? Drug Cartels. Let me pose a question. If the Europeans you mention came in illegally and then committed horrible crimes, would you be opposed to… Read more »
“The immigrants coming from those countries went through the processes for legal entry. My own German relatives. Etc.” In a period when those processes were far less stringent, and when avoiding them was far simpler. I know, for example, that some of my Irish ancestors arrived here “on the night boat” as the phrase went. And my Venezuelan grandfather undoubtedly violated the terms of his visa, which is why he had to marry my grandmother and then abandon her and her daughter. It was far easier to become a legal resident and then a citizen in the days before WWI… Read more »
Mr O’Neill, I have lived and worked and renewed visas in France, Germany, Canada, and the UK. It is hard work. If you fail to go through proper procedures–I see my wife in a wheelchair at the Prefecture in Evry, in a line about 300 metres long, with snow falling, fat file of documents in her lap, for an annual renewal– you cannot stay. I did the same drill in the UK in order to get a ‘Leave to Remain Indefintely’ stamp in my passport. I and my employer at the University of St Andrews had to do enormous work.… Read more »
The US is very much unlike all those countries (or used to be). The US is a nation of immigrants (save for the indigenous tribes) and we once prided ourselves on our open, welcoming borders. (Yes, there have been exceptions–the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Japanese internment. No nation is perfect.) But we once proudly placed on perhaps our greatest national monument: “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”[12] Unfortunately, we now have… Read more »
The Statue of Liberty was given by the French to celebrate American Independence.
I think modern Europeans would be surprised to learn that the present immigration crisis is unique to the US.
I am confused about your avoidance of the topic of legal immigration. Which all of these countries seek to regulate, and that we always did as well.
When someone like Eric Adams, or African Americans in Chicago suburbs, or Hispanics in Texas say, this problem is out of control and we–not white liberals–are bearing the brunt of it, are their voices not to be heard?
It’s a question of how they regulate it and against whom.
And I think the people mentioned in your last paragraph may have a surprise coming when they discover that the authorities managing Trump’s program of regulation are not quite as careful to make distinctions between groups of immigrants.
The people in the last category are US citizens.
Yes, and they may discover that that matters little to the people deciding who is taken into custody. I refer you to the following item:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/immigration-raid-newark-new-jersey-mayor-angry-rcna189100
And to this paragraph in particular:
“For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.”
“But, Lord, you didn’t follow the right legal process…”
I struggle with jesus words on economics and finance. His accounts of servants writing off debts. His advice to sell everything and give to the poor. What happens when you have a wife and family and dependents ? Jesus doesnt seem to mention these. I am asking seriously and in faith.
Same with open immigration. Accept anybody with no process? Is that what jesus would gave urged ?
Indeed. As I recall, the parents of Jesus followed Roman Law and took an arduous journey to do so, to be enrolled in the mandatory census. And because of obedience to this legal arrangement, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, as the prophets had foretold.
But when they were faced with the prospect of their child being killed by a tyrant appointed by this same Roman law, they fled to Egypt, disregarding the legal constraints.
And returned again. “Out of Egypt I called my son.” As Matthew says.
But only when they were told it was safe. When will it be safe for these modern refugees to go home?
It was not me who decided that somehow Matthew’s descent to Egypt was somehow relevant. Which for him, was about the fulfillment of scripture. As Israel went down to Egypt, so to the True Israel.
Looks to me from reading the gospel that the answer is yes. He was a really uncomfortable person to engage with. But also ‘pay your taxes’. So we toddle off and reconfigure what was said to fit with our current concerns.
yes, I seem to remember from my youth various sermons which water down what Jesus was saying. Richs and eye of the needle? Of course, Jesus was just testing the centurion, he didn’t really mean it. Anybody know how Jesus and his disciples lived? How did they eat, where did they live? Was it all dependent on generosity of followers? There is so much missing from the gospels. Were any of the apostles married/children? What happened to Joseph? Jesus’ brothers? i am sure some scholars here have some answers or speculations. But I also predict that those called to give… Read more »
Writing off debts refers to the importance of using money to make bonds of friendship of those in need and the giving away of everything to the poor refers to a would be disciple of Jesus whose possessions would be of no use to him, and indeed a hinderance, as Jesus and his disciples walked around from place to place. Presumably he didn’t have any dependents in the same way Jesus’ other disciples didn’t. Context is everything, but all you don’t need should be given to your neighbour who is in need , otherwise your wealth and possessions might become… Read more »
Yes, I know all that, but it doesn’t help. I read it as the usual watering down.
Take an example. In modern Britain, for a house owner the house is the biggest asset. Should we sell the house and rent a place and give to the poor? Or let children inherit it so they have somewhere to live? Or open the doors and give shelter to the homeless?
Or should we live in communes with shared posessions? How does that work?
Did Jesus anywhere talk about families and dependents?
Maybe I should re read David Shepherd.
Jesus deals with individuals; to some he says follow me closely, to others he says go back to your family and community and tell them what God has done for you. There are different vocations for different people in the Gospel just as there are different vocations in the Church today. The invitation to the rich young man to give up all his possessions is an invitation to the kind of Christian perfection that only some are called to follow. Obviously this would be impractical (and wrong) for someone whose vocation was to family life. PS the parable about writing… Read more »
Yes, I know it is a story describing spiritual matters.
Verses regarding family life vocations?
On the other hand:
“If anybody comes to Me and doesn’t hate his own father, mother, wife, children, brother, sister, and even his own life, he can’t be My disciple. If you don’t carry your cross and come after Me, you can’t be My disciple.”
In order for the rich man to sell all his possessions and give to the poor, someone else had to a. have money to purchase them and then b. take on the role of possessing them.
“For I belonged to a Venezuelan gang, and raped children, and unloaded enough fentanyl to kill thousands of people, and you did not care for me.”
Let’s try to keep the Bible from drifting into outer space.
Indeed, let’s, including having it drift into some alternate dimension in which all undocumented immigrants are rapists and/or drug dealers, or whatever demon you choose to align them with.
Who said anything about all immigrants being X,Y,Z? Not me.
“If the Europeans you mention came in illegally and then committed horrible crimes, would you be opposed to arresting them and deporting them?”
I see this question remains unanswered.
That’s the thing – not every illegal immigrant needs to be a murderer for illegal immigrant murderers to be a problem. If we are to take Jesus’ commandment to love our neighbour seriously – rather than to do as the Bishop does and limit your neighbour just to people like herself as well as her party favourites – then there are no either answers. Abut, that was the thrust of her sermon: that there are easy answers and that people who come to a different answer to her are simply lacking in ‘mercy’ because if they had ‘mercy’ they’d agree… Read more »
And moreover. she intentionally blurred the distinctions you make. Trump is a soul-less man, lacking compassion and mercy, toward some faceless ‘immigrant’ — as though ‘immigrant’ is someone fleeing X or Y and in need of mercy. If that were so, we could have a rational discussion about legal processes to become an American citizen, etc. She has shown no mercy toward all those whose lives have been forever ruined through murder and drugs imported across the border, grieving parents and loved ones, and she has simply elided them. Looking down from a pulpit with TV cameras, is not sitting… Read more »
MURDERERS are a problem, and NO ONE is saying they aren’t! What does this have to do w/ immigration?!
Let me repeat: the service in which Bishop Budde preached was by (Trump)-invitation only—to say nothing of the fact that only ONE person in the congregation was President of the United States! It’s absolutely a STRAW MAN to say the Bishop Budde was “limit[ing her] neighbour just to people like herself as well as her party favourites”. Projecting prejudices much?
Thank you.
Exactly this. If parts of Teixeira’s piece were quoted here, I’d ask to have them taken down as hate speech (“biological boys”: as unscientific as it is bigoted).
And SHOCK! Teixeira is a Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. “The Liberal Patriot”? He’s no liberal, and I’d have to question to which country he owes his patriotism. To quote Nancy Pelosi (re the opposition party) “All Roads Lead to Putin…”
You complain too much. What is wrong with the term biological boys ? It is clear and easily understood. It means sex as distinct from gender – maybe. Not everybody is fully up to date in the correct terms to use in the gender warfare.
Oh dear, hath I offended thee?
Chromosomes are not, and have never been, destiny. There have ALWAYS been XX boys, and XY girls (not to mention the many intersex conditions, both chromosomal and/or genetic).
Yes, I imagine newborns will continue overwhelmingly to be labeled “M” or “F” via a 10 second-or-less peek between the legs. But it’s ONLY a label, and should never equated some divinely-given Truth.
“Biological boys” or “… girls” is a reductio ad absurdum.
I’m mature enough not be easily offended. It was you who said the term ‘biological boys’ could be regarded as hate speech, and was offended enough to comment.
The vast majority would not.
Maybe we should start a conversation on moral philosophy?
Are you in favour of open immigration ? Is anybody ?
I am in favor of accepting those who are seeking to escape persecution, for whatever reason–politics, religion, ethnicity. And yes, that persecution can, and often does, take the form of economic hardship
And what is the issue with them become legally resident in the US?
Becoming legally resident is a long process; it can take years, years during which those seeking to escape persecution must continue to endure it. That is the reason so many seek to enter the US some other way, either without documentation or by misusing a visa intended only for students or tourists. (BTW, the wait for even those sorts of visas can be quite lengthy, depending on which country you are applying from. Those from Commonwealth nations or the EU generally have a fast track, but if you are applying for a visa from Latin America, Africa, or some parts… Read more »
“Becoming legally resident is a long process; it can take years, years during which those seeking to escape persecution must continue to endure it. ” I would like some evidence on this. Becoming legally resident in any country is difficult and time consuming, As it well ought to be. Years, years? I know a lot about applying for visas. Countries in the Commonwealth and EU ‘have a fast track’ — well, because they are in the Commonwealth and EU, which has done the work to regulate this. Immigrants coming into these regions have to do all the work to enter and… Read more »
We are talking here about those seeking asylum from persecution and poverty (usually the result of the persecution).
There is a waiting list and a quota for resident visas from any country (under US law), and the wait to acquire one can, indeed, take years. (I speak based on a conversation with a friend who is a former consular officer, who worked in Benin and then Canada.)
It is also costly. Just saving enough to pay for the required documentation can be a years-long process.
“We are talking here about those seeking asylum from persecution and poverty (usually the result of the persecution).” No, in fact, the discussion has been about illegal immigrants grosso modo. The good Bishop made no distinctions. As for the length of time, it is difficult to have a visa and residential status in all countries. And people coming to this country for that reason have done the work necessary. Lobby for a quicker process? Have at it. No one would object. That would be a good solution. You alternative to this is to have open borders? If so, they do… Read more »
If the Europeans you mention came in illegally and then committed horrible crimes, would you be opposed to arresting them and deporting them?”
I see this question remains unanswered.
But if a large proportion of the population struggle with that, and there is a predictable ‘unforeseen’ consequence, what then? Individual actions and government actions are very different. I have said before, Trump and his cronies sicken me, but open borders would lead to civil war. I think AP has confirmed he is no Trump supporter. >50% of US voters supported Trump. They are not all misguided idiots. Many are serious people with a moral compass. Democrats need to listen. Same in UK. Be careful what you wish for. [I hated Farage ever since he quoted incorrect statistics on HIV… Read more »
I remember sitting in a colombian restaurant in Houston with an African American friend. There was a mexican family seated nearby. My friend was uncomfortable and referred to ‘dirty mexicans’. I think she may be a Trump supporter…we didn;t speak much after that.
i also seem to remember bush snr or jnr being fairly open to illegal migrants, for reasons of economics and lawn mowing.