Andrew Lightbown Theore0 Speaking of character, speaking of culture
Kelvin Holdsworth Making the Real Presence, real.
Church Times Archbishop of Canterbury: ‘Daily fed and guided’ in sacrament
Archbishop Welby talks to Madeleine Davies about reform and the pandemic
Jenny Humphreys ViaMedia.News General Synod: Permitting Discrimination is Very Dangerous!
I think the elephant in the room with all discussions on whether a Eucharist works or doesn’t is that the Real Presence is axiomatically tangible – that’s what “real presence” means. What Kelvin poses as theological questions, aren’t. If someone, for example, says that recorded Eucharists work for them and they experience the Real Presence then recorded Eucharists work. It’s a question of fact, not theology. That recorded Eucharists work, or that people experience the Real Presence from bread and wine prepared at home might offend our liturgical OCD but debates as to what should or shouldn’t work are sterile… Read more »
Many people believe that Ouja boards work for them and spooks cause tables and chairs to move. Fact. That doesn’t mean they’re not deluded in their mistaken opinion. If Theology is simply a matter of subjective experience then anyone can believe in six impossible things before breakfast.
Did the Apostles meet the risen Lord? In what way is this different?
But that doesn’t change the fact that Real Presence is either tangible or is a meaningless claim: there is no middle ground.
Kate, as a priest of the Anglican Church in Aotearoa/New Zealand (and an ex-Brother of SSF), my faith has taught me that the Eucharist is a re-enactment of the the Last Supper, where Jesus ‘took bread and wine, gave thanks (eucharisto) to the Father, broke the bread and offered the cup to his disciples, commanding them to “Do this to remember me”. This action of remembrance (anamnesis) has been enjoined on the Christian Church down the ages, asking us to do just that. As Jesus provided the basic materials, bread and wine, together with the motivation to do what he… Read more »
If communal participation is required for ‘re-membering’ Christ in Holy Communion, where does that leave the sick who have communion brought to them in their homes?
To my mind, communal participation in a live streamed service is more ‘real’ than communion brought from a different location, which was consecrated some time before. Though, as one who is chronically ill, I have very much appreciated the company of those who have brought me communion at home.
What youare referring to here, Janet, is the situation of the Blessed Sacrament – already consecrated in the presence of a congregation – being ‘extended’ to the sick or house-bound. This still, effectively, is a community liturgical action.
But it isn’t communal to the person receiving it alone, and surely that is what matters? I think the ‘communal’ aspect here is purely theoretical.
For those who believe it is simply an act of remembrance then there is no issue of Real Presence, but again there is no question of validity because it is simply to support remembrance.
Kate, I think you may be confusing ‘remembrance’ with an actual ‘re-membering’. The latter is an actual Celebration of the Eucharist with the people who are present partaking of the Elements (which, as I have explained to Janet, may be ‘extended’ with offering the ‘Reserved Sacrament’ to the sick and house-bound. The act of ‘Spiritual Communion’ takes place when the physical Elements are not available for consumption – either at the Mass, or by extension – thus rendering the virtual Presence of Christ to be accessed without being consumed – as at the ancient Office of Benediction (or, at the… Read more »
I don’t think people using a Ouija Board is the same as accounts of the Resurrection. Similarly, if I watch an old James Bond movie, it can appear ‘tangible’ to my subjective imagination. Does that make 007 “real”? It seems, Kate, that “real” presence is in your head when you watch an old recorded Eucharist. That is not “real”. It’s imaginary.
If we believe that God can use any channel or means of grace, then a recorded Eucharist may not have the same “real presence” of God as one physically present, but it may still have a “real presence” in that there is an encounter with the divine, for those who are open to that moment.
‘The wind blows where it wills’ whether that is a person coming to new birth as in John 3, or any Divine intervention by God’s sovereign will.
Very often this happens through the operation of faith: primarily of course God’s faith and faithfulness towards us.
Real Presence is by definition not “tangible”. The dogma is that the “accidents” of the bread and wine do not change. And the “accidents” are all the measurable physical characteristics. So no matter how much you physically examine the consecrated elements, they will still be bread and wine. Real presence may or may not be a fact, but either way it is a matter of faith.
It is a matter of faith as to whether the hosts are sacred once blessed but the further claim of Real Presence is an assertion that there has been some identifiable change in the hosts.
I’m not sure there is much mileage in trying to pin these things down (looking through a microscope etc). You can’t pin down the grace that comes from God. I’m not sure the supraphysical of God can be pinned down either. It emanates from the heavenly dimension, and radiates the bread and wine with its supraphysical presence, only perceptible by faith? You might try to argue that therefore the change is not physical at all, and at the level of our own inhabited dimensions that may seem true. But I believe in the supraphysicality of God’s heavenly country, which may… Read more »
What is a rainbow? Is it tangible or not? A rainbow is not physically present where it appears to be – if you found the location of the pattern of light and physically went there you would not find a rainbow – because a rainbow is a process whereby a pattern of light can be seen from where you are standing. The idea that something tangible exists at a point in space and time is in fact discredited by scientific observation and the knowledge of optics. A rainbow is tangible – people in the same location can see it –… Read more »
Consubstantiation, transubstantiation, Real Presence, etc., are all theological concepts based on belief. There is NO scientific, rational, material, objective evidence that the bread is changed in any way after the priest says the appropriate prayer, performs the appropriate hand gesture, and raises it before the congregation to behold, other than the fact the bread is a few seconds older and, depending on its composition, maybe a little drier. So, yes, to a nonbeliever there may indeed be little difference between an Ouija board and debates over substantiation in whatever form true believers believe. And, in fact, true Christian believers aren’t… Read more »
Thank you for your very thoughtful essay.
As you say, much unnecessary dispute is about trivia. A topic which surfaces from time to time on TA is the objection by some to the use of Communion wafers rather than bread cut from a loaf. My understanding of the wafer is that it represents in convenient form the unleavened bread of the Last Supper, the Matzoh which you mention. It could hardly be more appropriate or more symbolic.
That’s the point I am trying to make. Questions of validity only arise if Real Presence or similar is claimed. But Real Presence is a question of (sacramental) observation, not debate so such questions are meaningless.
The Anglican scholar Richard Hooker said that “The real presence of Christ’s most blessed body and blood is not therefore to be sought for in the sacrament, but in the worthy receiver of the sacrament” I think there’s a lot of merit in that. He also says that sacraments are for us to participate in the grace of God through Jesus. “We take not baptism nor the eucharist for bare resemblances or memorials of things absent, neither for naked signs and testimonies assuring us of grace received before, but (as they are indeed and in verity) for means effectual whereby… Read more »
This is very helpful, Tony – thank you.
I wonder what Joe and Josephine public would make of this erudite discussion. It seems more about how a few odd people who claim to eat flesh and drink blood **feel** rather than about any kind of evangelisation. As for me, I open my boiled eggs at the little (pointy) end.
My objective – which I am not sure I achieved – is to show that it is a nonsense to discuss what makes a Eucharist valid if Real Presence is assumed.
Stanley, call me a heretic (and while I can enjoy them boiled, fried, scrambled) I prefer them boiled and shelled on ice. Brings back memories of Normandy. Very sacramental,the egg symbolizes the empty tomb, a pan religious symbol for creation.
Egg pan I suppose.
Eggs-actly, Stanley.
Archbishop Welby says it’s not us who grows the Church, but God. Obviously, He hasn’t been very good at it lately. Perhaps if human attempts like Fresh Expressions, New Wine and middle-class Alpha courses have failed as well, it might be best to try doing nothing. Then we can blame God since the Archbishop says it’s up to God, not us.
Not to mention, when publicly blamed, God doesn’t sue for slander/libel, God doesn’t punch the accuser in the nose, etc.
A pundit once said “when people say it isn’t about the money, it’s about the money.” Likewise, when people take an action and say, “This isn’t me doing this, it’s about following God’s word”, it’s actually about them.
God is the perfect target.
Ah yes, all those “middle class” attendees at Alpha – in the prisons and in courses run by Christians Against Poverty?
And what has New Wine got to do with it? It is largely a cross-denominational range of events and conferences, not a CofE growth strategy. (Ah, but – like Alpha – it was started by some people in the CofE, so it must be CofE?!)
Middle Class Alpha leaders in prisons tend to have a captive audience. It relieves the inmates’ boredom, I suppose.
Attending religious things looks good on the record when you’re up for parole, I’m told. I hope never to find out for myself but it’ll be a close run thing.
Have you actually ever been in a prison, Father David? I’ve volunteered in ministry projects and Sunday services in several prisons over the years. No one is compelled to attend any Christian event (that would be illegal). In fact, inmates tend to get a lot of ridicule and persecution from others when they participate. One of the most moving experiences I had as a volunteer at the Edmonton Young Offender Centre was to baptize a 17 year old girl who had been in prison for 5 years (the mind boggles). But it was significant that she made the decision to… Read more »
I preached my first sermon in prison! Many inmates came to Chapel, which was always packed, to relieve the monotony. Having keys to every cell, I had no illusions about inmates’ often negative, ribald attitude towards religion. I would have thought an Alpha Course would be treated as an opportunity for a good laugh.
David I did a two week placement in a Cat A Dispersal prison when I was at Westcott, the lead chaplain was very evangelical and offered Alpha etc. Like you my sense was that it was time out of the cell and as Stan has commented good for the parole board for the majority. The prisoners were by and large respectful and I think understood that the chaplains and chaplaincy visitors were genuinely concerned for their welfare. The ex-military had usually had good experiences of padres during their service and their teasing of us was done with a huge grin… Read more »
I’m glad to hear you’ve had that experience, Fr David. Over a four year period, I took part in leading services once a month at the Edmonton Young Offender Centre (different church groups took turns coming in). The age group was 12-17. Attendance was up and down, depending on what other activities were planned for Sunday afternoon. I enjoyed preaching there. I’d estimate that 3/4 of the kids were indigenous, very few had any church background, and most were unfamiliar with traditional hymns. The chaplain played ‘Wow! Worship’ CDs over the facility’s PA system; if we sang songs from those… Read more »
As rector of Maryborough (the pre-1922, and still legal, name for Portlaoise, Ireland) I had two prisons on my patch: Portlaoise Prison, the maximum security Irish prison for drug barons and IRA terrorists, and the much bigger Midlands Prison for ordinary decent criminals. I ministered to the Protestants therein of which there were very few, all sex offenders, but was involved in some educational activities for all. I enjoyed prison work, as I did preordination work with young offenders, and felt an affinity with the men, not least because on the whole they were honest about themselves. With this and… Read more »
I worked as a Prison Governor in the 1970s and 1980s. I assure you that some prisoners experienced radical conversion and the grace of God, with real and very moving repentance and a change of life direction (even at the risk of exposing them to other inmates because of their new values). Yes, of course, some prisoners ‘played the game’ with an eye to parole reports etc, but Christian prison work *does* change lives, and we’d expect it to, given the God we believe in. It is such a moving experience when you see ‘the big trees’ fall… when all… Read more »
What a moving story, Susannah – thank you! Walking down a busy street in Edmonton a few years ago, I was recognized by a young man who told me he had attended my services when he was inside. He also told me that God has really helped him in prison, and was still helping him now he was trying to stay clean on the outside. When I was a Church Army student in Toronto 1976-78 I attended a regular Bible study led by a man who had become a Christian through the ministry of a Church Army chaplain while he… Read more »
It was ‘Canon John McGinley of New Wine’, according to The Living Church’, who blew the gaff on ‘limits to growth’, wasn’t it? Reason not the need.
John McGinley is also National Lead of The Gregory Centre for Church Multiplication, a completely different organisation to New Wine, with different legal entities, governance and no doubt different employment contracts.
I hold six different board memberships – two executive, two non-executive and two charitable trusteeships. When I act in the name of one organisation, it is not synonymous with all the others. Occasionally, there may even be clashes or conflicts of interest, or philosophical differences – what is right in one context is not in the other.
I therefore can’t see how New Wine is a CofE growth initiative.
“I pray to be able to hand over to my successor a Church that is able to disagree well on these things,” he replies. “That simple. And still love one another. And be passionate and robust, but still love one another.” – ++Justin
Justin generally comes over pretty well in that Church Times piece but that paragraph is concerning. Surely his prayers, though, ought to be about finding a way to end the oppression of LGBTI members of the church, not about finding some way to keep disagreements from boiling over?
I agree with what Kate writes. If his prayers are for church to disagree well rather than to support full and equal rights for lgbt people and end the rampant homophobia in parts of the C of E, then that speaks volumes. With the numerous debacles around LLF that were fudged over and over again, I can only take this to mean dear lgbt ppl please learn to play nicely with ppl who hold a variety of homophobic and harmful views ranging from you must be celibate for your entire life to you are definitely demonic. This is totally not… Read more »
The Archbishop writes from the position of ‘straight’ privilege. He claims to know our pain, but he wants us to sit nicely and quietly to look at the blackboard and get on with our work.
Abdrew Lightbown’s reflective article on the need for transparency on the part of those offering themselves for membership of the C.of E.’s upcoming General Synod,needs your urgent attention. Perhaps our Mother Church of England is really hovering at the Crossroads, where its very life and future is dependent on the transparency and openness to change of its upcoming General Synod Membership. Unless candidates are transparent about their motivation in standing for office, how on earth can those who vote for them possibly trust their capability for forwarding the Church into this 21st Century of Faith? From my perspective, as a… Read more »
I enjoyed Jenny Humphreys’ article, and in particular this, ‘But until we take seriously the equality of every person’s identity with regard to gender and sexuality – the equality that is recognised and legislated for in all other areas of life in England – we will struggle to get our mission to tell the wider community about the love of God to be taken seriously by those we want to reach’.
We’ll never do that while we still have bishops whose primary task is to enable people to perpetuate division and the inequality of women in the church.
I can’t see how having Flying Bishops prevents women coming forward for ordination, being promoted and working everywhere except in the small minority of parishes who have opted out. The vast majority of the “wider community” have no idea Flying Bishops exist, or that they are uppermost in the minds of those reject the Christian Faith. Your hobby horse is a red herring.
‘Flying bishops’ flying in the face of equality; discriminating against women. Inhibiting women and many others from giving houseroom to ‘the church’ and what it seems to or does actually stand for. It would be interesting to know what candidates standing for General Synod are standing for; it is interesting seeing what they do and do not say in their manifestos/ statements …
I didn’t say that it did. My comment is about what happens after they are ordained. A two-tier priesthood is a much stranger animal than the ordination of women. It’s a contradiction of Catholic order, and an abusive arrangement.
Those against the ordination of women believe it is a contradiction of Catholic order.
Then why are they in a church which does it? If the Church of England introduced lay presidency I would know that it was time for me to move on. I wouldn’t set up a para-church as a righteous rump. The ones who have stayed are just Wee Frees drawing a stipend and a pension from the body they have separated themselves from.
Many evangelicals are ordained without believing in priesthood at all! Some of them believe in male headship. Would you be happy if everyone who didn’t agree with you went elsewhere? I’d be happier if everyone were an Anglo-Catholic. But I’m in the Church of England, not cloud cuckoo land.
You can do better than that. As you know it’s not a matter of what people believe but what they do. If they are ordained then they are ordained. As you said, it’s about Catholic order. Of course people believe different things, but the system of flying bishops is against Catholic order.
You mean you have a belief that Flying Bishops are against Catholic order.. And some people believe women can’t be ordained. And some evangelicals who are ordained don’t believe they are! Your personal belief in Catholic order means nothing to most in today’s CofE. People tend to do what they believe.
So women in those small number of parishes don’t matter? That’s like saying that people are free to worship Jesus in most countries but it doesn’t matter that they can’t in a small number. Firstly, everywhere matters, and if we look closely there are other human rights problems in countries where Christian worship isn’t permitted – I bet most of the parishes which won’t recognise women priests also wouldn’t tolerate an openly gay priest.
Most people can travel these days. If they live in a parish overseen by a Flying Bishop they can surely journey to a nearby church with a woman vicar. Some people don’t like Tesco. So they go to Sainsburys.
I love it – selective equality/equity! 😉
Don’t tell me, Nigel. I bet you shop at Waitrose!
Cato the elder ended every speech in the Senate of Rome,no matter what subject with the cry Carthago delende est. Carthage must be destroyed.
Fr. Forward ends every comment on TA with a cry that the flying bishops must be destroyed.
Not every comment, but many, and only when it’s relevant to the subject. And it needs to be repeated over and over until this cause of shame is removed from the church and women are recognised as priests by everyone and no altars are out of bounds. I’m happy that you know who I am and I warmly invite you to share with us here who we are speaking to.
Thank you for your warm invitation, Toby. Like a number of others posting here I prefer just to use my Christian name, and I hope you will respect that, even if you dont agree with it. As you mention it, we do know each other slightly. We trained as teachers in Derby at the same time 50 years ago, and bumped into each other a few times mainly at the National Pilgrimage at Walsingham.
What is Toby Forward doing on Pilgrimages where women clergy aren’t recognised?
Before the vote, I should have said
Well it worked in Rome!
When they were first introduced into the Church of England, I understood that ‘Flying Bishops’ were an odd species: ‘rara avis’. However, most of us might want them to become a lot ‘rarer’ than they have since proved to be. Will Mother Church ever abandon this sexist oddity?
Quite so. Whatever happened to the ‘period of reception’. I think that if they had been proposed as a permanent para-church they might never have seen the light of day. Better for everyone had that happened.
Well it would seem that the cry “flying bishops must be destroyed” like the boy who cried “Wolf” must be ignored for yet a while as I believe that moves are already afoot seeking successors to the current Beverley and Ebbsfleet. I attended a church last Sunday where the PEV was prayed for by name but not the Diocesan bishop. My “Lord, graciously hear us” would have been more fervent had both been included in the intercessions.
If they are reappointed in the same dioceses I would expect protests from the women in those dioceses.
Fr David writes “flying bishops must be destroyed”. One of the Hammer films was “Frankenstein must be destroyed” – 1969 with the great Peter Cushing and the usual suspects. Resonances?
It wasn’t the best of the Hammer oeuvre (the first two Draculas and Plague of the Zombies vie for that honour) but neither was it the worst. The most entertaining for me was Frankenstein created woman in which a girl with a huge facial naevus and presumably associated brain manifestations had ipsilateral motor symptoms in the limbs. They would have been contralateral. The writers should have consulted a neurologist/anatomist.
It’s time someone produced a film called “Forward in Faith Eaten by Zombies” . It would be a great hit, particularly among feminists. You could be the Anatomical Consultant, Fr Stanley.
FrDavidH, use this for inspiration: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15hese
It’s on Britbox but leaving soon (I need the subtitles, not available on Daily Motion). It’s all very spiritual with blood and flesh and resurrection – thought the gets resurrection sequence is undoubtedly in Dracula, Prince of Darkness. I’d better shut up.
Fr David was quoting Ian as personally I am fully in favour of Bishops Glyn and Jonathan being succeeded by two new Bishops of Beverley and Ebbsfleet. As to Kate encouraging protest if the Flying Bishops are replaced, which they fortunately will be, let us not forget that they are officially Provincial Episcopal Visitors and each one covers several dioceses. I am confident that Archbishops Welby and Cottrell can be relied upon to make two splendid appointments to the Sees of Ebbsfleet and Beverley.
Yes, Fr David, I realised after I’d pressed “post” that you were quoting someone else. My apologies, and fraternal greetings.
Apology fully accepted with thanks and fraternal greetings reciprocated.
Toby Forward mentions the oft forgotten “period of reception”. I once asked an Archdeacon if this had come officially to a conclusion or was it still continuing but answer came there none. It would be good to know the answer or are we to remain in perpetual limbo?
It seems to me that can kicking is a highly developed skill among the senior clergy, and the “period of reception” is a highly developed example of the result – a can that appears to tumble on of its own accord and no longer require kicking.
Father David
If I was going to the Bookies ( I am not a betting person!!) and casting my bets I would put my money on Philip North being translated from the See of Burnley to Beverley and Will Hazelwood being translated from Lewes to Ebbsfleet, both of these Bishops have worked alongside women fellow Suffragan Bishops, Jill Duff Bishop of Lancaster and Ruth Bushgagyer Bishop of Horsham, so they will be well aware of the Sensitivities of Women Priests, so will bring moderation and graciousness into these roles. Jonathan