Thinking Anglicans

Opinion – 23 December 2024

Andrew Brown The slow deep hover

Gavin Drake Church Abuse Church of England safeguarding: Children’s Society is wrong to refuse Justin Welby’s donation

Observer editorial The Observer view on the Church of England: how does it recover after its annus horribilis?

Ian Gomersall A Retired Rector’s Reflections Christians awake!

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Interested Observer
Interested Observer
1 month ago

Andrew Brown might be right that Justin Welby did not know about John Smyth. The only person who really knows is Welby himself, and few who think him guilty will take his denials seriously.

But Justin Welby’s speech to the House of Lords was appalling: smug, sneering and self-regarding. He should be shunned for that alone.

Homeless Anglican
Homeless Anglican
Reply to  Interested Observer
1 month ago

Churlish. Yes – his speech was ill advised, but he has apologized. Is TA now going to become a hate chamber or a support place for victims with some reasoned responses. Andrew Brown is challenging and graceful in equal measure.

A not so humble parishioner
A not so humble parishioner
Reply to  Homeless Anglican
28 days ago

“Graceful” – sorry I really don’t see it. He just oozes pomposity and a patronising in his continual assertions that those he disagrees with (who are calling for ++York to resign amongst others) are confused because they seem to lack the ability to differentiate between the crimes committed by abusers and the failures in leadership that prevent justice and learning from happening. Sadly I’ve seen responses like Brown’s to other demands for leadership change in other areas. They are reactionary, they assume their targets for criticism are stupid and emotional and they are profoundly offensive as a result. To be… Read more »

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  A not so humble parishioner
27 days ago

I think Andrew Brown may on occasion get carried away with words, but I do admire his persistence in trying to get down to the truth of what exactly happened, and not jump onto misinformed bandwagons. I reread his post, and was reminded of what happened in 2013 and 2014. Makin said it was only in 2014 that the Rushton report was communicated to the police. In 2013, what was known to the police (and Welby) was much more vague. In Andrw Brown’s words: None the less, all the ghastliest and undoubtedly criminal aspects of the abuse were reported the next year… Read more »

Last edited 27 days ago by Nigel Goodwin
Realist
Realist
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
27 days ago

I partly agree with your final sentence, but disagree with it as a blanket policy. I can think of many single poor decisions that should be resigning matters. But in the cases of our two Archbishops, certainly my own conviction that both should resign comes from the cumulative effect of actions and responses to valid criticism of actions, both their own and those of groups with which they have been involved and/or complicit.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Realist
27 days ago

i agree. Never say no or never or always.

I meant, of course

“there is a cumulative effect, no single poor decision should always lead to a resignation.”

It also helps if the single poor decision is apologised for ASAP, and rectifying actions take place, such as meeting up with victims. Isn’t that the New Testament definition of forgiveness?

A not so humble parishioner
A not so humble parishioner
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
17 days ago

Forgiveness does not mean tolerating incompetence in place. Leadership is about accountability and responsibility. One can forgive and still understand that someone is no longer competent to lead.

Forgiveness does not mean that the forgived have no consequences for their actions.

Forgiveness does not mean we stop seeking justice.

“A single poor decision” could encompass any crime or sin against any person with any level of malevolent intent. We must be far more discerning than that.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Interested Observer
1 month ago

[I had a previous reply, can that be deleted and this one shown instead?] Mark Ruston and David Fletcher and a few others (5 others?) definitely knew, back in 1982. mark Rushton wrote the report in 1982. It seems to me likely that Jonathan Fletcher (David’s brother) knew, Jonathan was close to Rushton. Justin Welby attended Iwerne camps, and I think stayed with Mark Rushton at some point, but there is no reason to think he knew anything. I have a feeling that Welby’s contacts with Iwerne and Rushton would have been before 1982. He would have known the name… Read more »

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
30 days ago

BTW, I also think it strange that the media refer to Welby and Smyth as the ‘sexual abuse’ case. It was primarily physical torture and spiritual abuse, the sexual side is very debatable. But ‘sex abuse’ sells newspapers.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
30 days ago

Sexual abuse is almost always about power rather than sex. Smyth was an extreme example, but Ball, Rideout, Jackson, and allegedly Pilavachi also made it pretty obvious.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Janet Fife
29 days ago

I agree, obviously, but that doesn’t make the converse true. Torture and spiritual abuse isn’t always sexual.

My point is that the media, and the outside world, view ‘the church’ as sexually perverted, and obsessed with sex.

How can this perception best be changed?

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
29 days ago

We could stop being obsessed with sex?

Matthew Tomlinson
Matthew Tomlinson
Reply to  Interested Observer
30 days ago

Shunned for lots of other reasons too. Refusing to meet a Palestinian clergyman last year because his mate the chief rabbi told him not too, for instance.

Richard Ashby
Richard Ashby
1 month ago

If Welby hadn’t broadcast that he was going to make a donation to the Children’s Society perhaps this wouldn’t have happened. Isn’t there something written somewhere about going about doing good quietly?

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Richard Ashby
30 days ago

I hadn’t heard about it until the society rejected it.

Maybe it was public knowledge but not widely known …

Also sometimes there is value in being seen – people have criticised him for words and no action on safeguarding, so he was going to put his own money in to a related cause. In the circumstances isn’t that what people would want to see as a step after the apology plus resigning so he won’t be in a position to action (or inaction) anything anymore.

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Richard Ashby
30 days ago

That’s the crucial point, for me. Had the Children’s Society refused a donation given privately with no publicity, I would have thought their actions churlish. The moment anybody starts trumpeting donating to charity I start questioning their motives, and under the circumstances I think they were right to refuse his donation.

Alastair (living in Scotland)
Alastair (living in Scotland)
Reply to  Realist
28 days ago

Thoughtful letter in Times, suggesting charities would be poorer if they rejected donations from people who had failed morally!

Aljbri
Aljbri
Reply to  Alastair (living in Scotland)
28 days ago

Possibly, but it must depend on the nature of the moral failure. Trustees have both fiduciary duty and reputational duty. I can imagine a number of cases where the second trumps the first. I conclude that there’s a lot to be said for anonymous giving.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
1 month ago

For me, there is information missing from the public record (as I am aware of it) which would allow me to form a full, personal opinion on the Welby / Children’s Society situation. If anyone knows the answers, I would be interested.

1. Has +Justin been a regular benefactor to the Children’s Society or was this his first, recent gift?

2. Did +Justin publicise his donation?

Last edited 1 month ago by Kate Keates
Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Kate Keates
30 days ago

Yes, he publicised it – he announced it in his eChristmas card, which has a wide circulation. The Daily Mail had it, though I don’t know whether it was sent directly to them or whether it was leaked to them.

According to the Times, Welby makes a charity donation every Christmas but this is the first time it went to the Children’s’ Society. That does look suspiciously like an attempt at whitewashing, and in those circumstances I think CS were right to turn it down rather than colluding with the attempt to sanitise him.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Janet Fife
29 days ago

Thank you.

Titus Grey
Titus Grey
1 month ago

Very interested to read Andrew Brown’s hypothetical comment on a diocese where safeguarding leads have left under NDAs.

It reminds me of another hypothetical diocese where the archdeacons have been the safeguarding leads. That would be very poor practice when relating to survivors of clerical abuse.

Did anyone else notice the “job of the week” in the most recent Church Times? Someone looking for a safeguarding director.

When will people start asking the right questions?

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Titus Grey
30 days ago

Yes, there seem to be lots of vacancies around for safeguarding positions. I wonder what the job descriptions are, accountability and responsibility?

Stephen Griffiths
Stephen Griffiths
1 month ago

The call for ABY’s resignation is part of a larger movement of exercising power/agency within the CofE (the pressure put on the former +Winchester, the Rochester Diocesan Synod motion, the petition to remove ABC, the use of social media to speak openly and garner support). Bishops need to learn new ways to lead, based away from the House/College (any minutes yet?) and towards building diocesan trust and consensus. Any leader needs to recognise that the last resort ‘vote of no confidence’ or its equivalent is unlikely to be solely a result of the presenting issue, but the last straw. In this… Read more »

Adrian James
Adrian James
Reply to  Stephen Griffiths
30 days ago

As one of John Smyth’s 130 worldwide victims and one of the ‘ISB Dozen’ featured extensively in Sarah Wilkinson’s report I have had two extensive personal meetings with Stephen, in May 2022 & last month to discuss safeguarding issues in detail. On this basis I can confirm that the mantra that dictates his entire approach to safeguarding is: one rule for me and another for everyone else. The first victim of this strategy is his (lack of) ability to be truthful. Gavin Drake has set out the evidence. https://churchabuse.uk/2024/12/22/does-the-archbishop-of-york-stephen-cottrell-suffer-from-pseudologia-mythomania/ But no doubt 106 out of 107 Bishops, AC & GS… Read more »

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Stephen Griffiths
30 days ago

A very good evaluation. I’ve been pondering the contrasting responses of the former Bishop of Blackburn and the Archbishop of York to situations in which, by their own admission, they supposedly wanted to remove someone who, in one case was an alleged perpetrator of abuse (Hindley) and in the other an established perpetrator of conduct unbecoming if not abuse, at the time (Tudor, when he had solely an overturned conviction on record), but were advised there was nothing legally they could do. Bishop Henderson, having exhausted every legal avenue, took the extraordinary course of making a substantial financial payment to… Read more »

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Realist
30 days ago

Wasn’t it +Justin who advised closing the cathedral should be an option?

Realist
Realist
Reply to  TimP
29 days ago

I don’t know. If it was, then that’s something he definitely got right, in my view.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  TimP
29 days ago

Blackburn isn’t in ++Justin’s province. It’s in ++Stephen’s patch.

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Janet Fife
27 days ago

I know… but a few seconds of googling tells me: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2gj77pvwwo “The Archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Reverend Justin Welby, backed a plan to close Blackburn Cathedral if the priest returned to work from suspension” I’m pretty sure that I read other information about this – basically +Justin wanted to follow all the legal advice he was given and so proposed and/or backed closing the cathedral so the priest would have no where to work. Maybe that could force him to resign. But then Blackburn decided to break the law and fire him in such a way that meant any… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  TimP
27 days ago

Thanks. But why was ++Justin interfering in another province? Unless ++York asked his advice?

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Janet Fife
26 days ago

for something as serious as closing a Cathedral, you’d have hoped they’d talk to each other.. and yes – in the article it also says “In July 2021, the then-Bishop of Blackburn, Julian Henderson, wrote to the canon saying he would have sacked him if he could, after the final risk assessment had found “the risk of inappropriate sexual behaviour to others as low to moderate”. Rt Rev Henderson said “this should never be said of a clerk in Holy Orders” and he made the startling threat that if Canon Hindley came back to work he was “prepared to close… Read more »

Surrealist
Surrealist
Reply to  Janet Fife
26 days ago

Isn’t Canterbury Primate of all England, York being Primate of England? Implying some kind of oversight for the whole C of E ? Maybe I’m making this up.

Froghole
Froghole
Reply to  Surrealist
26 days ago

In essence the primacy of ‘All England’ derives from the settlements of 1071 and 1118 (but more definitively 1352) which resolved, or attempted to resolve, the unseemly squabbles over precedence between the two archbishops. Canterbury invariably had the upper hand, since the papacy had effectively vested the see with legatine authority. However, during the 12th and 13th centuries the papacy gradually rendered that authority a nullity (or withdrew it de jure) via its system of appeals, which became ever more expansive and intrusive. However, this moribund legatine authority was effectively restored to the see as a function of the termination… Read more »

Colin Coward
30 days ago

In defence of Stephen Cottrell, Andrew Brown says: “When someone like Gavin Drake says that the Church of England is not a safe place, they do not mean — at least I hope they do not mean — that children or vulnerable adults are at risk right now, but that survivors of historic abuse, some of it really terrible, do not feel safe in the Church of England today.” Andrew is totally wrong. I do not feel safe in the Church of England today, for a variety of reasons. I am not a child or a vulnerable adult. Other categories… Read more »

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Colin Coward
30 days ago

Thank you Colin. For very different reasons to yours, I also don’t feel safe in today’s C of E. For a very credible and accomplished journalist, Mr Brown seems to be making a lot of assumptions and throwing a lot of bricks to see where they land at the moment. Titus Grey – if there are things going on in this hypothetical diocese, the name of which I think we can all guess, that present a very different (and properly evidenced) picture of its Bishop, I, for one, would like to know. I’ve no time for smear campaigns via insinuations,… Read more »

David Hawkins
David Hawkins
30 days ago

Andrew Brown’s article proves one thing. The Church of England urgently needs to listen and engage directly with victims of abuse. Andrew Brown means to be compassionate and helpful but he writes as an outsider, someone who has not been a victim and I’m afraid he doesn’t get it at all. It is simply not true that the Church cannot help in the healing process but it can do a great deal in small ways if it is motivated by kindness and Christian love and it should stop treating victims as insurance claims. If you want to know what will… Read more »

John Davies
John Davies
Reply to  David Hawkins
30 days ago

At the end of my civil service career I worked for the late General Teaching Council, where we dealt with teachers who’d accrued child abuse convictions. What I learned there simply reinforced the conviction that the CofE hierarchy are living on a different planet to the rest of us over these issues. They seem totally unaware that society’s attitudes have changed in regard to child abuse. A teacher, or any other un-ordained person only has to have one conviction and you can safely say they’re out for good. Society has institutionalised unforgiveness, nor believes in fresh starts. Same thing applies… Read more »

TimP
TimP
Reply to  John Davies
29 days ago

A key word is “conviction” (as in, police conviction). The church is not the police. Until the complaint in 2018 that then involved police, David had not had a conviction (as in understood it, the prior offense the police hadn’t felt the need to investigate). An agreement has been made on how he could work prior to +Stephen coming in. Once he had that new complaint then he was out. The previous bishop seems to be getting off for making the agreement. Once made, a new bishop wanting to changing the rules is tricky. +Stephen should have championed changing rules… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  TimP
29 days ago

Tudor’s earlier conviction had been dismissed only on a technicality, and the judge made it clear the complainant was believed. ‘A repentant soul’ – arguably, a repentant child abuser would accept that he could not just carry on in his old job as normal. Restitution must be made, and very strong evidence of repentance would be needed, such as undergoing treatment for sex offenders. Besides, Jesus did not say that those who harm little children should be forgiven. He said the judgment they face will be so harsh they would be better off having a millstone put round their necks,… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  TimP
28 days ago

Tudor had had a prior conviction, for indecently assaulting two young girls. He went to prison for that but it was later quashed on a technicality. The judge made it clear that the complainants had been believed.

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Janet Fife
27 days ago

There is a difference between “Truth” and “legal truth”. It was the “Truth” with a capital T, that he was a sex offender. The problem is – that if a judge can’t say the person deserves to be punished and treated as one; then the legal-truth is that he had no conviction. Even if the Judge “wants to”; the law isn’t defined by that. That is a problem to raise with your MP though, not with the church. The church has not been playing judge+ jury+ investigator (unlike e.g. the Post Office). Now I think we’ve learnt that police and… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  TimP
26 days ago

Safeguarding does not require a criminal standard of proof ‘beyond all reasonable doubt’. And Cottrell had no need to renew Tudor’s appointment as rural dean, or to make him a canon.

Non-aligned
Non-aligned
Reply to  Janet Fife
26 days ago

We’re operating to some degree in the realms of speculation, which can be as dangerous as it is attractive. But… I wonder… How attractive was the role of Area Dean at that place and time? Perhaps not very. If no other candidate presented, and Tudor was keen to continue (to cement his stature in the church, inter alia?), would it be be hard or brave or a foolhardy risk of retaliatory action not to appoint an AD at all? Personally, I think the direct linkage of AD posts and honorary canonries is a mistake. But once formalised in a diocese,… Read more »

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Non-aligned
26 days ago

Whilst in half agree with the speculation, I think Janet makes a point that he didn’t “have to” do the AD or HonCan things. This speaks to me of someone who had looked at initial options once “can I fire him?” Was told no.. and then didn’t think about it. Rather than someone who was proactively thinking “well what can we do?” I still see that as lower than a “resignable” offense. But I accept borderline. I do know I am influenced by the fear of creating unintended consequences in removing both archbishops. In more “stable” times, if they both… Read more »

Last edited 26 days ago by TimP
Surrealist
Surrealist
Reply to  TimP
26 days ago

I’m worried by the way increasing numbers of folk in the CofE seem to think that the best way to proceed is to effect the removal of others not by due process but by pressure. +Newcastle helped do this to the ABC, and seems to want to do this to the ABY, but with much less support, this time round. And, she says, if I have understood, would have done to Tudor had she been + Chelmsford at the time. She clearly has many qualities, but if a predeliction for extra-procedural defenestration is a character trait, I’m glad I’m in… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Surrealist
26 days ago

It’s what happens when there are no procedures for dealing with erring prelates – or at least no procedures that work. Complaints and CDMs against bishops and archbishops, however valid, are almost always dismissed or ignored. What we are seeing is the buildup of frustration and indignation over a long time, coming to a head.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  TimP
26 days ago

You’re right, Tim. It’s always easy to find a reason not to take a distasteful or difficult course of action. If the question had been, ‘What can I do to prevent this man from severely damaging more young girls?’ rather than ‘What will cause me least trouble?’, I’m sure Cottrell would have found it unnecessary to renew Tudor’s tenure as area dean and canon.

Realist
Realist
Reply to  David Hawkins
30 days ago

Well said. My view is even if (wrongly) he feels he has done absolutely nothing to warrant resigning in the Tudor case, it is ludicrous to think that someone who has been so involved at the highest level in creating the mess can be a catalyst for change and/or lead the Church out of it. That alone should lead a true servant leader to resign for the good of the Church. The Archbishop should go back and re-read some of the words he has published in his books on leadership. The books aren’t that bad! As you say, there’s no… Read more »

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Realist
30 days ago

I agree with the conclusion “he is not the leader to lead us out of this mess”, but… I do think he can be a reasonable caretaker leader until a new ABC is appointed and in post, after that a new ABY as well would be good. But spreading the archbishop duties now just makes people overworked and the potential replacements harder to prepare for interview and do a good job in their own diocese and do a share of acting-archbish responsibilities. Until the CNC process is made much faster (and I do think it should be a lot faster),… Read more »

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  TimP
29 days ago

How do you feel about the “caretaker” being one of the voices with the highest status when choosing how to fill the vacancy?

Last edited 29 days ago by Kate Keates
TimP
TimP
Reply to  Kate Keates
28 days ago

Fine. If you speak to anyone who has been on a CNC (I have spoken) they will be able to reassure you that archbishops always speak last when giving opinions on a candidate precisely to avoid being unduly influencing. Saying he has “the highest status” may be true on paper but has no difference to the practicality of what happens. The various articles on the CNC on here suggest problem has not been that members are easily swayable – if anything it’s been that they didn’t get swayed. The idea that we may have people who just nod along at… Read more »

Last edited 28 days ago by TimP
Realist
Realist
Reply to  TimP
29 days ago

I take your point about overworked people stepping up, but I wonder just how much difference it would make to have no archbishops except in the Diocese of York (recognising that +Dover already acts as quasi Diocesan for Canterbury). That’s a genuinely open question, as I haven’t done the work to establish the potential impact. I say that because we have Dioceses basically operating as independent monarchies with the Archbishops constantly saying they can’t interfere. We have pretty much everything else being run by Billy Nye the Whitewash Guy, either openly or covertly. So apart from ceremonial duties and Anglican… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Realist
29 days ago

During a vacancy in the archbishopric of York, the most senior of the three suffragans acts as diocesan.

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Realist
28 days ago

The idea of an acting bishops for acting archbishop sounds good on paper, but.. In another time that could work, but who is making the choice? In the event an empty chair is proactively better than Stephen then he should go, but I think that’s a very low bar and only those who have feel personally insulted by him will think we’ve reached. Either his role will have no power anyway, (for reasons you outline) in which case lets ignore we have better things to worry about. Or it will have some power – so that introduces the problem of… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Realist
28 days ago

During a vacancy in the Archbishopric of York, the most senior of the three suffragans acts as diocesan.

As I understand it, the difficulty arises if there is no archbishop to chair General Synod or to appoint and consecrate diocesan bishops.

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Janet Fife
28 days ago

Thanks Janet, I had a feeling it would be something like that. Tim makes an interesting point about the low bar. I do think we’ve reached it, but I haven’t been personally insulted by ++York. I think we’ve reached it because an empty chair can do less damage than one occupied by an arrogant egotist who just doesn’t get the impact of his actions on others or doesn’t care about it, even where he can try to hide behind technicalities like inheriting situations. I’ve inherited difficult situations in most of the posts I’ve held, before and since ordination. The only… Read more »

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Realist
27 days ago

“It interests me that there may be no process for General Synod to go ahead without any Archbishops.” Yes – – and I suspect it really is that bad. I recall the former ISB members could speak initially as a standing order required “the presidents” and while ABY said yes, legal officer said “it means both” – – presumably the one way round that would have been for +Justin to have signed a piece of paper saying for the next 24hrs +Stephen has all my powers while I’m looking after my mum, of something else similar. I dare say there… Read more »

David Lamming
David Lamming
Reply to  Janet Fife
28 days ago

Janet, archbishops do not ‘appoint’ diocesan bishops. That is the job of the Crown Nominations Commission (CNC) – strictly, of course, to nominate the person for the prime minister to recommend the King to approve. However, the standing orders of General Synod, which set out the rules of procedure for a CNC, currently require that the CNC is to be chaired by an archbishop (save for Canterbury and York, where the chairman is appointed by the prime minister – hence the recently-announced appointment of Lord Evans of Weardale to chair the CNC that will choose the successor to Justin Welby)… Read more »

Realist
Realist
Reply to  David Lamming
27 days ago

Thanks David. Absolutely something should be proposed so GS going ahead with a session is not rendered impossible by the absence of both Archbishops. The present circumstances aside, it would only need one vacancy and one untimely death, and the primary legislative body of the Church grinds to a halt. In my view that is a somewhat negligent situation for the operation of a charity, and to ‘miss’ such a major thing in the context of the extreme pedantry seen every time any legislative wording is proposed and discussed seems ludicrous. Could any of this be dealt with via instrument… Read more »

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Realist
26 days ago

I doubt that delegation by an Archbishop would survive that Archbishop’s resignation, death or retirement. In practice asking The King for an Order in Council could resolve any particular problems. I agree, however, that something less ad-hoc would be preferable. I would add a single clause to the SO saying that “If either President is absent or unavailable and has not effected a valid delegation covering the circumstances, then his/her powers may be exercised by the Bishop of London or, if the Bishop of London is also unavailable or absent, by the most senior Diocesan Bishop in terms of appointment… Read more »

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  David Lamming
27 days ago

Thanks, David. In saying ‘the archbishop appoints’ I used a sloppy shorthand. For which, my apologies.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
30 days ago

Let’s not forget two things. the victims still feel they are not being listened to or helped in any wayhow the outside population now views the church, and the impact on the gospel of JesusOn the second point, I mentioned to my youngest son, who is at home for a few days while his girlfriend is with her parents, that I had talked on LBC something to do about the church. His immediate response was ‘the church is full of paedophiles’. We did have a short conversation. We did agree that paedophiles may be found in many institutions, but ‘the… Read more »

Last edited 30 days ago by Nigel Goodwin
Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
29 days ago

“When did a Bishop or Arch Deacon last go down a street knocking on doors? Or going into local pubs and nightclubs and talk to people?”

Not just that. I would like to see bishops leading their cathedrals through the Liturgy of the Hours on a regular basis. Maybe make it a feature of Lent, for example?

Surrealist
Surrealist
Reply to  Kate Keates
28 days ago

There have been occasions when dignitaries have, for example, polished the shoes of the plebs for free on Maundy Thursday (a re-tread of footwashing, as it were). But they then get criticised for virtue signalling.

peter kettle
peter kettle
Reply to  Surrealist
28 days ago

Perhaps that is why ABY will not be shedding his finery and kneeling before the crib in penitence, despite his encouragement in the Christmas Day sermon for those who wear such things to so.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Surrealist
28 days ago

That’s part of the reason why I didn’t suggest that. I can seem performative. On the other hand, a bishop spending Lent in their cathedral daily leading any pilgrims through the daily offices would demonstrate devotion and humility.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Kate Keates
28 days ago

They would have to be invited to do so by the dean, who may have their own ideas for a Lent programme.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Janet Fife
27 days ago

I can think of a Dean (RIP) who would have been very happy to suggest it…..a somewhat troubled Cathedral recently.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Kate Keates
28 days ago

My point is that anything should be done outside the cathedral or church environment. Go to a shopping centre. Talk to non-church people. Get out of the echo chamber.

Kate Keates
Kate Keates
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
26 days ago

I take your point but drop all admissions charges and bring people in. Encourage tourists to wander around during services rather than discourage it.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Kate Keates
26 days ago

I think that is irrelevant (with all due respect!!). What percentage of the population has ever been inside a cathedral? Or has been inside a cathedral in the last 5 years? Or wants to go inside a cathedral? At a minimum, open cathedral spaces to be innovative. I remember at Norwich they used some of the space for homeless at one time. I’m not talking about Christmas fairs once a year. Something real. Something which provides employment for young people. Why not open up a space in the high street? i dunno, just need some brainstorming and get out of… Read more »

Too old to genuflect
Too old to genuflect
Reply to  Kate Keates
15 days ago

Archdeacon

Helen Hamilton
Helen Hamilton
29 days ago

As a person who has suffered abuse from a male priest in an anglican, training college while preparing for ordination I know how destructive it has been in my own life. Only those of us who have been abused can know the impact it has on all future relationships and one’s psyche. it is not an exaggeration to say that my whole life since the incident has been marred and I have never recovered from the abuse. Since it happened over twenty years ago, at Cambridge, I have been unable to move on stuck in a traumatic time warp. I… Read more »

Pilgrim
Pilgrim
Reply to  Helen Hamilton
29 days ago

Helen, thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts, it is greatly appreciated. I support you and share all your conclusions.

Janet Fife
Janet Fife
Reply to  Helen Hamilton
29 days ago

Helen, I agree. I’m sorry your experience has been so devastating. Peace to you this Christmas.

DAVID HAWKINS
DAVID HAWKINS
Reply to  Helen Hamilton
28 days ago

Helen I am so sorry to hear of your abuse and how long it has stayed with you. I pass on some advice I received from one of the priests at Newport Cathedral. It worked for me and I pray it helps you. When you are about to receive communion take your abuse with you to the altar and give it to God. In my case an answer came in a few days. ‘Your abuser has escaped justice in this life but he will most certainly receive in the next.” And since that time the burden is lifting, a little… Read more »

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
29 days ago

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/25/c-of-e-must-kneel-in-penitence-after-difficult-year-says-archbishop-of-york Let’s see the list of actions early 2025, let us make sure they are actions with testable results, nothing wishy-washy, and let’s see, during the first 6 months of 2025, those actions as being marked ‘complete’. The one thing Welby should have learnt during his time at Elf and Enterprise oil was the importance of project management and deadlines. First oil date is immovable. I know, I worked on the Nelson operations team. It is also testable – oil flows or not. If it had been delayed, as head of treasury Welby would have had to go to the… Read more »

Realist
Realist
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
29 days ago

Once again I’m appalled by ++York’s presumption and sheer arrogance. How dare he say ‘the C of E’ needs to do all these things, when he will not lead by example? Undoubtedly some within it (including him) should do the things he has listed, and more besides. But local church members, some of whom I’m privileged to serve and who work extremely hard to make their churches as safe as possible for all people, do not need to atone for the failings of Cottrell and his cronies, and of those who have been the primary abusers. Many of those local… Read more »

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
28 days ago

As mentioned elsewhere Welby was not a manager, but it was Stephen who preached so .. I think his sermon hit the best words possible. It is a shame that I wake up to news of +Helen-Ann criticism of it. I doubt her words at a time like this do anything productive, just make us all sound very self obsessed. It would be good if to see what actions on clergy discipline and safeguarding come out of the synod. If ABY blocks anything that will be the final straw, but the bigger risk is for synod to block and not… Read more »

David Chillman
David Chillman
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
28 days ago

Actually, I am disgusted by his statement. It’s not the C of E as a whole that’s the problem. Throughout the country, at parish level, there are loads of dedicated and lovely people (lay and clergy) who are utterly blameless in all this. They struggle hard (usually with minimal assistance from ‘the high ups’) to keep churches open and serving their communities. Archbishop, don’t paint us all with your rancid brush! The problem is YOU and the people like you in positions of power and influence. The ones who have created and maintained a system of preference and cover-up; a… Read more »

Rerum novarum
Rerum novarum
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
27 days ago

Agreed. Without an actionable plan the church will endlessly analyze who was to blame for what, or just leave similar things open to happening again. Sometimes it’s difficult to see what should be in a plan, but in this case it’s clear. First, enforce lines of reporting so that events are recorded, communicated and investigated at an institutional level in a timely way, mindful that failing to do so gives room for manoeuvre to a malign but clever person. Second, encourage everyone to think inquiringly and openly about how the faith is being communicated. One remarkable facet of Smyth was… Read more »

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Rerum novarum
27 days ago

Thanks.

DAVID HAWKINS
DAVID HAWKINS
29 days ago

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/church-of-england-archbishop-york-christmas-sermon-abuse-scandal-b1201792.html

If you are truly sorry Stephen Cottrell, “show me” do the decent thing and resign. Demonstrate your humility and continue your vocation as a Parish Priest.
Please don’t demand of others what you are unwilling to do yourself.

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
27 days ago

What exactly is it that the Archbishop of Canterbury has to do, prior to any new appointment, that cannot be done by the Archbishop of York, acting as Archbishop of York?

Why do we need an acting Archbishop of Canterbury?

Maybe his diary secretary knows the answer…..

Non-aligned
Non-aligned
Reply to  Nigel Goodwin
27 days ago

Consecrate bishops for the southern province?

Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
Reply to  Non-aligned
27 days ago

And if that doesn’t happen for a year, the work of parish priests collapses? Maybe we are on the same wavelength – what does an archbishop do apart from dressing up and consecrating bishops for 5 mins. every 6 months? Chair some meetings? But not allowed to lead or participate in, or indeed chair in any meaningful way, such meetings? I am being serious – does the ‘person in the street’ or even in the pew have any idea what an Archbishop does? I would not be able to explain it myself, but apparently they need a diary secretary. What… Read more »

Allan Sheath
Allan Sheath
Reply to  Non-aligned
27 days ago

Doesn’t require an archbishop – three bishops will do.

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Non-aligned
27 days ago

An Archbishop is not needed to consecrate a bishop. As I understand it, one bishop is sufficient but three bishop co-consecrators is the norm. When ++Justin was on sabbatical in France, + Sarah of London acted as principal consecrator of a suffragan in the Norwich Diocese. ++ Sentamu did not actually consecrate + North although he took part in the service. ++ Justin did not actually consecrate either of the current Chichester suffragans from memory, although he was present. I am not sure what the arrangements are for confirmation of election. ++ Canterbury’s election is confirmed by a panel of… Read more »

Simon Kershaw
Reply to  Simon Bravery
27 days ago

My understanding is that when the archbishop does not act as chief consecrator they appoint another bishop as their commissary for the purpose. In the southern province this would normally be the Bishop of London, and in the northern province the Bishop of Durham. (The consecration of bishops who have qualms about women clergy adds a different complication to the mix.)

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Simon Kershaw
26 days ago

Thanks for this. It still requires an Archbishop to be in place to appoint a commissary, so not the quick fix I thought it was.

Alastair (living in Scotland)
Alastair (living in Scotland)
Reply to  Simon Bravery
26 days ago

Perhaps the commissary is not limited to one act, but continues for some time? In Scotland an acting Bishop recently appointed the Dean as his commissary and this continued until the new Bishop was installed in Argyll and the Isles.

Anglican Priest
Anglican Priest
27 days ago
Nigel Goodwin
Nigel Goodwin
27 days ago

I have mentioned before about the great work done at parish level. Just came across this interview with Henry Corbett, whom I knew at my college at Cambridge university.

I know there are many many others like him.

Listening to him is cleansing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0f10qbn

Francis James
Francis James
27 days ago

For far too long the CofE hierarchy have talked big about ‘lessons learned’ etc, but failed to do anything except some tinkering around the edges. Talk is cheap, time for action. For a start they need to stop hiding behind lawyers & core groups, get out amongst the people, and listen (really listen) rather than pontificate. The big thing that they have failed to hoist-in is that bad things will continue to happen & to be exposed, & what counts is what they do about it. On that note, I may say that it really irritates me that one moment… Read more »

Too old to genuflect
Too old to genuflect
26 days ago

Buddhism again seems so attractive.
The ecclesiastical picking of navel fluff in these columns is very dispiriting.

TimP
TimP
Reply to  Too old to genuflect
26 days ago

I can sympathize – – perhaps ironically I think the ABY sermon actually makes a good point here; Christmas Day sermon – York Minster | The Archbishop of York Right now, this Christmas, God’s Church itself needs to come again to the manger and strip off her finery and kneel in penitence and adoration. And be changed. It’s a short read – and if you allow yourself to forget the context, it’s a powerful message. Calling us to not simply talk about God’s love, but to show it to people in actions. It is very easy for us to point… Read more »

peter kettle
peter kettle
Reply to  TimP
24 days ago

ABY on Christmas Day:

Right now, this Christmas, God’s Church itself needs to come again to the manger and strip off her finery and kneel in penitence and adoration. And be changed.

Ok, but did he, as such a significant figure in the Church of England?

Or perhaps, as I posted somewhere here or elsewhere on TA, it would have been virtue signalling, and we have had enough archiepiscopal ‘faux pas’ ….

TimP
TimP
Reply to  peter kettle
24 days ago

“but did he”

Why does it matter, why do we need to continually score points?

Simon Bravery
Simon Bravery
Reply to  Too old to genuflect
26 days ago

My brother is a Buddhist and is currently considering whether to be become trustee of a Buddhist temple. He is a little cautious as he has found some of the internal politics he has encountered rather troubling. Anglicans do not have a monopoly on dysfunctional religious organisations ( although we are very good at them).

Too old to genuflect
Too old to genuflect
Reply to  Simon Bravery
26 days ago

Indeed.
And episcopal churches do not have a monopoly on heavy hierarchy.
It is a matter of checks and balances, but Aunty CofE is becoming increasingly repulsive and too many of us are straining at gnats.

David Runcorn
David Runcorn
24 days ago

A significant voice speaks into the current rage and outrage still engulfing the CofE. In an interview in The Observer, Bishop Rose Hudson-Wilkins reveals herself, for the first time, to be an abuse survivor, in childhood and church.  But she is clear that “calling for resignations doesn’t resolve the issues. We need proper processes to ensure that we never see collusion or cases of abuse not handled properly. I have confidence in the safeguarding measures that are in place, but there is also fear – people are afraid of not getting it right, of being blamed. We need to stop a… Read more »

Tony Bellows
Tony Bellows
20 days ago

Andrew Brown in his defence of Cottrell says that since Tudor had twice been acquitted of the offences that no one doubted he had committed, he could not even be suspended until or unless fresh charges were brought against him.  That’s not the only option. When allegations and complaints were made over a churchwarden in Jersey where the Dean Bob Key had not acted in a satisfactory manner, Bishop Tim Dakin, on inheriting this mess from his predecessor commissioned a report by Jan Korris. This uncovered that said churchwarden was over tactile with women and was chaperoned! By the time… Read more »

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