Philip North Church of England Newspaper Three dangers and priorities for the C of E after the Welby crisis
Helen Yaxley Surviving Church Navigating the Church’s Complaints System – Not Fit for Purpose?
Giles Fraser UnHerd Burn down the Church Machine
Martine Oborne ViaMedia.News Safeguarding and Patriarchy in the Church of England
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love What kind of God do we believe in?
George Pitcher A Word to the Wise Nationalise the Church of England
Bishop North’s reiteration of the need for independent scrutiny of safeguarding is welcome, but his first three points appear to amount to (1) don’t hold anyone to account; (2) don’t reflect on toxic theologies which facilitate abuse; and (3) the bishops need to close ranks. Entirely the wrong conclusions to draw, it seems to me, but exactly what one might expect. Thank goodness for Martine Oborne and Giles Fraser (who will, alas, be ignored, I fear, as the church machine trundles on).
As neatly exemplified in Philip North’s piece, why is the Church of England so scared of safeguarding being fully independent? This is not the same thing as the half-hearted alternative proposed by North of having greater independent scrutiny of a system which is effectively the status quo. Yes, that alternative scrutiny body may well be able to ‘receive’ complaints, but it sounds like those investigations will still lie with diocesan safeguarding personnel who, ultimately, sit within a hierarchical structure with a bishop at the top. As a general aside, I find North’s articles to be very frustrating reads. On one… Read more »
I think it reveals he is actually rather lightweight when it comes to considered thought and writing. He can’t be consistent, fails to tackle any issues of real substance and often misses the point. Forget the fact that this man doesn’t believe 25% of the priests in his diocese are real priests, the man has been promoted well beyond his capabilities.
I can’t even bring myself to look at it, Charles. I am so sick of his opportunist pontificating every time something happens, and wish someone would advise him that pushing himself forwards is not always a good look for an ambitious prelate.
Reading these columns is enough to drive me to Buddhism. I disagree with Philip North on a number of issues but his ‘pontifications’ are as nothing compared to the evangelical hissy fits which figure frequently from a number of ‘frequent flyers’ in TA who must have much time on their hands. Incidentally because of his stand on a number of issues, he will be aware that his chances of further preferment are very small. I will not stoop to list those who pontificate from a diametrically opposite position to +Blackburn. This constant playground squabble, alongside opposition to the mild (some… Read more »
I finally relented, and wish I hadn’t. When will I trust my instincts? At one point Bishop North writes of his shock at the fear among his (I assume Episcopal) colleagues that if they make a mistake in safeguarding process they, too, will be forced to resign. I wanted to email him with a very unrestrained ‘ahh diddums! Welcome to the world you and your Episcopal colleagues have forced on rank and file clergy for a long time.’ We clergy who are not abusers, and do not wilfully cause damage to people, live and work in fear of finding ourselves… Read more »
Giles Fraser hopes the next archbishop of Canterbury is a woman. Philip North doesn’t recognise the ministry of women. Martine Oborne thinks North’s views about women should be illegal. Thank you for choosing articles by people diametrically opposed to each other. Who on earth would want to lead the CofE?
The Bishop of Blackburn says that the ministry of women priests is, in his own words, “grace-filled”, yet he chooses not to avail himself of that grace. Is he just being dishonest or is he afraid of his SSSWH followers?
SSSWH? Please don’t use acronyms as they just exclude other readers.
‘The Society’
It’s “The Society”. https://www.sswsh.com/
Society of SaintS Wilfrid and Hilda – the mutual support organisation of those who ‘cannot/do not accept’ the ministry of women as Bishops and Priests, sometimes just abbreviated as ‘The Society’. I am not a member.
Why anyone with even a limited knowledge of early medieval history would want to name a society after the murderous Bishop Wilfrid, never mind then linking him up with a proper saint, Hild, who was one of the religious movers and shakers of her day, and presume she would oppose the ordination of women ,
does rather beggar belief ….. twisted history .
Yes! Hild presided over a double (mixed sex) monastery and trained future bishops. Why on earth would she oppose women’s ordination?
I shall not comment on all the twists noted above by Susanna, but merely note that one of Wilfrid’s more praiseworthy acts was to be a firm champion of Etheldreda (who equally helped him in the time she was married to Ecgfrith); and Etheldreda’s life very much paralleled Hild(a)’s in that period. A double irony in double monasteries…
very fair point not least because Google produces some unlikely results. Try Saints Wilfred and Hilda, or even ‘The Society’, which made me blink, but the acronym is long and un illuminating. Basically v trad Catholic, no women priests etc.
There is a small amount of light relief amidst the general depression from the way people are choosing to use these one-word, presumptuous, but also vaguely sinister titles: The Society, The Alliance. How long before we have church group calling itself The Organisation or even The Family?
He could have moved to the Ordinariate, but that would have involved disappearing into obscurity.
What an astute comment, if I might say so, Father.
He is being dishonest in the hope that his fudge will stop people being too uncomfortable that he is a diocesan who doesn’t believe a quarter of the priests in his diocese have valid orders as priests and are simply deacons acting beyond their station.
I do not believe that any single person can heal the rifts in our church. Certainly not +Blackburn with an article that pays the merest lip service to independent safeguarding before circling the wagons around Episcopal unaccountability.
I do think all the global travel of the ABC really serves little concrete purpose, beyond trying to sell his office as of some essential character vis-à-vis Anglicanism. The Church of England has a polity unlike all the other provinces, as an established church, House of Lords, and so forth. At present it is struggling to be a “Church of England” when England isn’t attending it, save for a sliver of the population. Throw in a crisis of safeguarding, and the resignation of the incumbent, and it is clearly time for re-evaluation and a pause in this global travel in… Read more »
Well on this issue, perhaps, Anglican Priest, I wonder if we may find some form of emerging consensus across all tribes and factions in the church? I (and plenty others) thought at the time it was a mistake to increase representation from the global Anglican communion on the Crown Nominations Commission. At the time, it was argued by proponents that this was a way of moving towards a post-colonial model for the Anglican communion, but it seemed to me it was simply re-inscribing the primacy of Canterbury in a way which was extremely unhelpful, and almost certain to result in… Read more »
I question whether the Anglican Communion even needs a president. This gives the false impression that it’s a global organisation that needs someone to speak for it. It isn’t and it doesn’t.
Well I don’t disagree. Some kind of secretary or co-ordinator perhaps? Someone, presumably, to organise regular get-togethers and chair meetings (which even sceptics like myself can see as useful and necessary).
Can’t this be done by the ACC? It is a legal body after all. It seems to me that as communion seems so impaired, like Humpty Dumpty I can’t see it being put together again. I suppose the real question is whether ACNA and / or the Global South elect an Archbishop to head their churches based around the Jerusalem Declaration ( which the C of E and several other Provinces won’t sign up to). How the current CNC will work with reps from the AC I know not. We are stuck with it this time I suppose. I remain… Read more »
It is not the same Instrument as the Primates Meeting, of course. In theory, one supposes, whoever the ACC would like to chair their meetings could do that. As for the Lambeth Conference ‘instrument’ that too is something to be dealt with.
Surely that can be done through the Anglican Consultative Council.
A General Secretary, perhaps? The former CEO of the ACC appointed by Welby, proved a bully who destroyed the “symphonia of the office, got rid of loyal staff and was hardly a unifying power
I should have thought that what was being proposed was, when Primates gather, someone chairs.
One could equally hold the view, one supposes, that all such gatherings are now over. I would myself doubt that.
Or, one could say, “Communion” is what is on the tin, and we don’t have that anymore. I’m unsure whether this might be what you mean.
One thing at a time, of course. Allowing the role of Canterbury time to come into a new frame would itself mark a major change.
Until now, it seemed the resistance for that was coming from within the CofE.
“it was simply re-inscribing the primacy of Canterbury in a way which was extremely unhelpful, and almost certain to result in the appointment of a new Archbishop who is convinced that ‘communion work’ is absolutely central to the post.”
Indeed.
“I am at a loss to know why this wasn’t the option chosen at the time.” Recalcitrance at having Canterbury lose this supposedly critical role?
It might be a pleasing twist of fate (or providence, if you will) if the five representatives of the global Anglican communion on the Crown Appointments Commission all chose to vote for whichever candidate pledged to interfere the least with their independent (autocephalous?) national or provincial churches, and to concentrate instead on the obvious crisis in England. I would have thought there’d be plenty of support from the global communion for this, and now their numbers are up to five on the commission they might even be able to sway it to this effect!!
So, are you now in favor of the Crown Appointments Commission moving forward with the Communion representatives, after saying “it was simply re-inscribing the primacy of Canterbury in a way which was extremely unhelpful.”
Presumably the Crown Appointments Commission will go ahead with Communion representatives this time as it is too late to change the procedure . What effect it will have on the choice I know not. But I do hope there will be subsequently some rethinking of the ABC’s role. One wonders in the current climate how many primates will turn up for the Enthronement.
Well said.
There is no functioning instrument of unity. The first Lambeth Conference had only 60% attendance. The ACC and the Primates meetings are late 20th century inventions. Lots of Primates boycott the ABC. A global Communion can be replaced with an international federal approach. It’s actually what Anglicanism is. It works for Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists etc. And for the Orthodox. Time to stop pretending the Communion is some big single entity. That ended with the empire. Anglicans are not Roman Catholics. There’s no binding canon law, Pope, Curia etc – and 2/3 of provinces don’t even bother with the 39 articles.… Read more »
All of that is dubious. The term ‘Instrument of Unity” is later than the first Lambeth Conference, so it is a bit odd to speak of ‘late 20th century inventions’ — that is when the term began to be used. The Primates Meeting was a regular-and-often instrumentality during the periods of Carey and Williams. Only very recently did provinces stop attending. Of course Anglicans are not Roman Catholics! But equally they are not Lutherans or Methodists. Presbyterians have never had an international polity — based in Geneva? Scotland?. The idea is anti-presbyterian. The English predilection to make a Communion an… Read more »
The polity of the CofE is essentially Presbyterian on ground level and regal-hierarchical-episcopal at the level of bishop/monarch. Internationally, there are some – not many – provinces that were not part of the GB Empire. But none of those provinces were left untouched by GB invasion, war, etc. The 39 articles reflect a 16th century anti-Catholic and anti-foreign mindset, and quite reasonably have no relevance or traction in many places outside the CofE/UK, and never have. You don’t find them used or affirmed in Hong Kong or Japan, for example. The latter was never part of the empire, (but GB… Read more »
“The polity of the CofE is essentially Presbyterian on ground level and regal-hierarchical-episcopal at the level of bishop/monarch.” The discussion was about the Communion, not matters internal to the CofE. “They were proposed in response to some very particular crises, and none has really worked.” No, they arose in an effort to give more coherence to the Communion. They arose in order to assist the ABC in his non-England role. One may wonder if this worked out very well. “But none of those provinces were left untouched by GB invasion, war, etc.” Well, to the degree that’s true, it isn’t… Read more »
Nice try, but the first Lambeth Conference was prompted by the Colenso Polygamy crisis in Zululand. The debate on the status of polygamous marriages was on the agenda until 1988 – when it was finally dropped (unresolved). The Archbishop of York declined to attend the very first Lambeth Conference, as did a third of English bishops, so how was this conference supposed to be part of some “effort to give more coherence to the Communion… [and] arose in order to assist the ABC in his non-England role”? Was the ABY just not interested in supporting the ABC here? Or just… Read more »
Yes, I know the Colenso crisis. At that time, Lambeth Conference was not a (latterly conceived) Instrument of Communion, to which you made your comment.
The idea of Instruments arose to give coherence to the office of Canterbury, a recent development.
As for the rest of your ideas–CofE is presbyterian–they are not related to the AC.
Nice try indeed.
Can you explain what you mean by ‘C of E is presbyterian’?
I would have thought with the current range of liturgical styles from Roman rite to little liturgy at all, ordained clergy not accepted everywhere, divergent pastoral practice regarding baptism, weddings and funeral etc etc …I would say the C of E is more congregationalist!
Certainly not Congregationalist. More like lots of small popes, which Giles Fraser is very keen on adopting as a model for the C of E.
Congregationalists don’t have bishops, and they appoint their own pastors. Presbyterians don’t have bishops either, and they usually have a group of elders.
I don’t see why an episcopal church shouldn’t have a variety of worship styles and practices, if they are all authorised and approved by bishops. That’s the difference.
Ah, for that you will need whoever is “David” who writes:
“The polity of the CofE is essentially Presbyterian on ground level and regal-hierarchical-episcopal at the level of bishop/monarch.”
It is of course not my own view. And the topic had to do with the Anglican Communion, not his personal views on the CofE, for which, you may review his remarks.
In probably the last years the definition of an Anglican has been a Christian in communion with the See of Canterbury. Whether the definition of an Anglican will need to re-defined in the light of present realities or whether Anglicans worldwide as well as in the UK will have to become content to live as Anglicans without any definition at all are open questions. Jonathan
To the degree that what you write is what any anglican in provinces outwith the CofE might find coherent. Obviously, lots of Anglicans believe they are so whatever Canterbury is or may become. I’m not even sure the ABC believes he maketh the Anglican. Up to this point in time, his role has been vis-a-vis provinces, and it is one of ‘inviter’ not black-letter (Roman) canon law.
Who decides that the Archbishop of Canterbury should spend so much time away from the Church of England other than the Archbishop himself. Is there any accountability as far as the work of the Archbishop of Canterbury is concerned?
Now that’s a fascinating question. It sounds here like public opinion within the CofE may be brought to bear. There is no black letter law about his role. It is a political agreement — could so long as all is well. He and Rowan made decisions about attendance at Lambeth Conference. There is no canon law about his rounds in the Provinces. At the end of the day, this is one major reason the job is being thought of as unnecessarily too cumbersome, burdensome and burn-out prone.
It is very typical of the current managerial approach. CEOs are now more focussed on the outward facing and delegate the running of the organisation which means that big problems don’t get properly dealt with because the CEO has filled their calendar with meetings with other CEOs, partners and stakeholders. Accountability is pushed low and authority is kept high – priests punished and bishops protected. The ABC has followed a trend set in the executive world he was part of. The crisis of leadership in the CofE is just part of the crisis of leadership experienced in British public institutions… Read more »
“It is not revealing any secrets to say that both Synod and the College of Bishops are divided on the issue of LLF, a division that is in danger of becoming chronic and entrenched. A crisis such as the current one could lead in one of two directions. Either, against a backdrop of mutual recrimination, we could splinter even more and so make decision making and reform effectively impossible. Or we could see the need to unite in order to build a renewed and healthy church.” (Phillip North) How is it possible to “unite” when you fundamentally disagree ? That… Read more »
I think liberals need to answer the same question, Why is changing the rules to allow blessing of a form of sexual act so important we’re willing to risk splitting the church, when we don’t ask (for example) to risk splitting the church over changing official wording on “this is the word of God”, removing some of the 39 articles, or making the liturgy around communion more open to interpretation or etc… Instead we know a many liberals who just “suck it up” on those theological points about salvation, but on sex – we want to change the rules out… Read more »
You think marriage is only about ‘a form of sexual act’? That is very revealing. What a reductionist – and unbiblical – view of marriage.
What we are asking is that the Church be allowed to bless and solemnise lifelong commitments: for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, and when sexual acts are no longer possible.
Both a fair and unfair criticism. I was responding to the argument that “What conservatives need to answer is why who you have sex with is so much more important than transubstantiation or whether women can be priests.” so sex was being claimed as the key issue – so I was framing it deliberately in that context as a rhetorical device. I could have been more careful in my wording though. Another retort on the original. I know a Vicar near me who has had a few people leave because they think gay marriage is a core issue. He has… Read more »
Is the main, or only salvation issue, the confession of Jesus as Lord and saviour? From which follow, out of obedience to his Lordship: repentance of sin, faith in the atoning cross and justifying resurrection, plus obedience to Christ’s ethical commands, which include his denunciation of porneia?
Is the main, or only salvation issue, the confession of Jesus as Lord and saviour? From which follow, out of obedience to his Lordship: accepting the unconditional love of God, loving our neighbour, caring for the outcast, looking to the sins of our own attitudes of mind before laying burdens on others, and learning to see Him in the people we have been schooled to see as outside His kingdom?
👏 👏
[EDIT – I wrote this before realising why it’s different to Openmind – so – – – not really relevant sorry] I would be careful about saying anything is “the main” or “the only” on this site… But the argument you present does sound like the Creed to me. So I’ll agree. HOWEVER – – that’s not really a retort to anything I said? Unless you’ve mis understood me. I was not saying anything was ‘the main’ or ‘the only’. I did say “a vicar thinks baptism was more related to salvation than who people want to marry or have… Read more »
Thanks John. But what’s your take on porneia? Why does Jesus mention it in Mk 7, and Revelation in Chs 21 and 22? Is it just ignorable, or a potentially Kingdom-excluding sin if unrepented? Or is your understanding of ‘unconditional love’ that it precludes any possibility of exclusion from grace? In which case what need of atonement, repentance, justification, Christian ethical thought, costly grace, self-discipline, church discipline – indeed all of the elements of the architecture of the classic Christian faith. If sexual immorality is possible, it needs understanding and avoiding, doesn’t it? If sexual immorality is a nul concept,… Read more »
I always understood that porneia referred to making sacrifices to pagan gods. There was a thought that the church transferred it to sexual impropriety at a later date. Sounds plausible.
I think it is more that gender variant and homosexual men served in the temples of pagan Rome and across the then empire, and in Jerusalem and Mesopotamia before that. Search Google for “Galli, priests of Cybele”.
This would create an association of paganism with gender variance and eroticism in Paul’s time, and lead to understandable NT denunciations of gender variant behaviour in a church seeking to put clear blue water between itself and paganism
The relevance of such denunciations today for non pagan homosexual Christian loving couples is of course the 65,000 dollar question.
“Why does Jesus mention it…?” It seems to me just ridiculous (even if it’s what the church historically has always done) to argue over the implications of individual verses and words. The only way reading the Bible makes any sense to me is to look for the broadest of broad brush strokes. What was Jesus generally about, as far as we can learn from the Bible (which is a wonderful but inconsistent muddle of a historical document) ? Loving God, loving neighbour, forgiveness, showing God’s love for the marginalised, giving of oneself for others, and so on. His broad overall… Read more »
I don’t presume to have the theological knowledge to contribute anything authoritative here, but seeing as you ask my views: (1) It seems to me rather presumptuous of any human to set limits on what the grace of our all-powerful and all-loving God can achieve. “But we make God’s love too narrow by false limits of our own, and we magnify its strictness with a zeal God will not own.” (2) I don’t see sin as specific acts that deserve punishment. I see sin as those parts of our lives or characters in which we fall short of the image… Read more »
What you describe is not salvation, but sanctification which follows salvation.
You raise an interesting point. Is salvation a one-off event: you believe on a specific occasion and then you’re ‘in the club’ and guaranteed heaven, and can sit back (if you choose) and wait for the big prize? Or is salvation more of a continuum through life, with God’s kingdom of heaven opening up intermittently, when we open and let love work in action? I believe that each time we open our hearts to the Love of Gpd, new life begins to break through, and God becomes present in the flow and passing through us. So to me, salvation and… Read more »
“which include his denunciation of porneia” I almost missed that at the end. [now I understand John-S’s response] I think you are claiming “I think views on gay-sex can be considered a key part of salvation; and this is because it directly links to confessing Jesus as Lord” The thing is – – as John S demonstrated – – you could frame anything in the same way “I think views on XX can be considered key as they directly link to Jesus as Lord” for any ‘XX’ representing something you have interpreted from the bible. – and I guess that’s… Read more »
Not views on same-sex, but unrepented same sex acts. I think that’s the Biblical position. But your acts are likely to be influenced by your views aren’t they, so it’s better to strive to have the right views, through searching the revelatory scriptures. On all aspects of obedience to Jesus, of course.
But, if I understand them correctly, ‘views’ are also being condemned. Otherwise, why would CEEC be objecting to being under the pastoral care of any bishop who supports the Prayers of Love and Faith? Why would the Evangelical Alliance include the affirmation “We believe both habitual homoerotic sexual activity without repentance and public promotion of such activity are inconsistent with faithful church membership”?
PS for clarity I was alluding to Jesus in Mark 7. Paul would agree and both are of course equally authoritative scripture, in the classical understanding of the Bible.
As is the “tradition” in the life and practice of the church, following this scriptural lead. The Nicene Creed and its canons, for example, which Creed many recite in the formal context of Holy Communion, not the debating chambers of all and everyone.
But this Creed and its life on the ground, with its ethical implications, can now easily be ‘someone’s ideas long ago’ that we recite as at a funeral.
Married same-sex couples aren’t committing porneia (fornication), “Openmind”: let me set your conscience at ease. *
* At least not anymore often than married opposite-sex couples do!
Fair enough. Thanks, Tim.
“we want to change the rules out of fear 1.5% of the population may go to the Methodists (that’s a stat from the 2022 census of how many people are gay, lesbian or bi).”
You fail to include the families and friends of those 1.5% which probably increases that percentage some tenfold, thereby making it more like 15% who would “go to the Methodists”.
Ok – including friends it could be larger – – but then many friends are non-Christian so I don’t think it scales that well. But – – it could be 90% of public opinion who will join the Methodists; but I still don’t think that should be a deciding factor in our theology. The first Christians on this land will have had a vast majority disagree with them on a lot. Sometimes you’re meant to teach people to live a different life. There is certainly much we still need to teach the world about living a counter-greed-orientated lifestyle for example… Read more »
…but I still don’t think that should be a deciding factor in our theology.The first Christians on this land will have had a vast majority disagree with them on a lot. Sometimes you’re meant to teach people to live a different life. But you’re NOT “the first Christians” on this, or any other land. You’re A group of Christians being told that your “theology” is harming the children of God, and in so doing, violating the Good News of Jesus Christ. Yet you cling to it out of stubborness. Deep down—where the “still small voice” dwells—I think most you “don’t… Read more »
If you know what I am thinking then guilty as charged. Scary.
I don’t see how that argument works — ignoring whether or not you can read mine or anyone else’s mind. [which you clearly fail at, since I do think the theology should change] We’re not the first Christians. So what? The analogy is still true that those were “a group of Christians being told that their theology is harming the Children of God and &etc” that wasn’t a good argument then and it’s not a good argument now. Pagans or non-believers can say following Jesus is costly so stop preaching it. Christians can say preaching that aspect of the bible… Read more »
Given that Phillip North told me at General Synod in York that The Jay Report was s*** (his exact words), he can hardly preach on how safeguarding should be done. Bishops still don’t get that they are NOT TRUSTED with any aspect of safeguarding. If he did he wouldn’t be trying to say what should happen. Unless he’s setting out his hustings for Canterbury of course…
I’m ignoring the views of bishops who won’t be candidates for Canterbury.
Thanks for sharing this, Matthew. It’s further evidence that accords with my own experience of this prelate on things other than safeguarding. A mask of commitment and sincerity can be very convincing until one detects the patterns of the issues on which someone speaks out and the timing of interventions, or indeed until real opinions and motives rashly shared in an unguarded moment find their way into the public domain. Ambition is a very potent drug for some, but I really hope those responsible for appointing to Canterbury (or York…) are not taken in by the sideshow.
North’s piece was mass of platitudes offering no real way forward.
I find the mental gymnastics of “The Society” High Anglican bishops as regards gays quite interesting. In Feb 2023 General Synod Philip North abstained on the vote to introduce blessings and prayers for same-sex relationships, but to my surprise Martin Warner supported it. However, by Nov 2023 they had got back on the same page, & both of them firmly voted against trial standalone services for same-sex couples.
I wonder if there are any gay people in “The Society”. I think we should be told.
I think this is part of the dysfunctionality of the system that needs to be addressed – the large numbers of gay priests in The Society, including those in relationships, who are not open about their sexuality, and in fact publicly support discrimination against other gay people in the church. This is a pretty unhealthy culture of repression and denial – understandable perhaps 50 years ago, but not today. Not my place to out people here, but if they don’t have the confidence and resolve to come out themselves in 2024, it doesn’t speak well of their character to be… Read more »
Their pretence is as silly as gay evangelicals who claim not to be gay, only “same-sex attracted.” Partnered gay Society priests presumably copy those gay “celibate” Vatican priests and bishops with boyfriends who tell the RC faithful how to behave in bed.
‘The movement (Anglo-Catholicism) is deeply affected by sexual confusion and dishonesty. The growth of Anglican Catholicism and the growth of male homosexual subculture in Britain occurred at the same time. The closet and the sacristy were historically coincident. And for many years Anglican Catholicism provided a form in which gay people were able to be themselves in an oblique way….. However, since the gay liberation movements of the 1970s and the spread of honesty about sexual identity, the Anglican Catholic movement, which had once been a place of safety, has become a zone of untruth and denial. So it is… Read more »
Fantastic. Thank you. I did not know of Ken Leech before, but having just seen his entry in Wikipedia I shall investigate further.
I wonder if studying his life history might give context to Colin Coward’s descriptions of inner city London church life a few decades back.
Simon, you need to read Ken Leech! True Prayer, Soul Prayer and True God for starters. I knew Ken back in the day. He wasn’t in the diocese of Southwark but his presence in the Church of England his writing was integral to the spirituality and theology that underpinned South Bank religion and the Christianity Mervyn was pursuing in the diocese.
Thanks. He is obviously a popular writer, his books are virtually unobtainable second hand, but one or two in Sarum College library.
I’m rather surprised to find him out of print. But copies available at e.g. https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/Kenneth-Leech/author/B000APRGN4
Yes, thank you, but not the ones Colin recommended, and I would like to go for those.
Rob, there is more than one Anglo-Catholic movement in the Church of England now. Ken Leech was indeed criticising those Anglo-Catholics addicted to what for me was and is an extremely unhealthy, sickeningly closeted and therefore perversely homophobic as well as misogynistic culture, in which Philip North is implicated and unfree. Ken was part of an incredibly rich, vibrant network which included many visionary Catholic priests whose names will be familiar.
I was an avid Ken Leech reader and had very clear memory of this passage but have never been able to trace it since. Thank you.
There are indeed. Quite possibly the majority. All of those I was at College with who are now members of the Society certainly are.
I can confirm the same
I’ll ask the silly question – – but why should we be told?
If they [for want of a phrasing] could be described as gay – but they choose to identify as same-sex-attracted – but moreover they choose to identify publicly as currently celibate and don’t want to talk about their sex-lives.
Why should we demand to know about their sexual orientation?
Surely whatever their arguments are, do not become more or less weak on that basis?
I think people should be able to be as private as they like in the public sphere.
This privacy approach might have worked in the old days of ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’, when the canons of the church tallied with the laws of the land, but now it is different. So the question is not so much ‘why should we be told’ but rather ‘why shouldn’t they tell?’ And we know the answer to that, do we not?
Like gay, self-hating evangelicals, they take a moral stance on same-sex relations whilst living with their boyfriends. I do not think people should be able to be as private as they like in the public sphere when their private lives are contradictory.
I don’t assume that all homosexual bishops live secret hypocritical lives, but some do.
But surely if a bishop is homosexual but celibate it would be in accordance with a bishops vocation to be leaders and teachers of the faith to live such a life in public and show how it can be done, to lead this difficult life as an example to others.
Because if the young men and women in the “living out” network see their church leaders lead closeted lives it can only make a difficult life more difficult.
Our perception of ourselves can drive our fear of others.
Under the cry of no more ‘swanning’ around the world Giles Fraser notes: “He [Welby] should prioritise the needs of the Church of England. The clue is in the name.” ‘Swanning’, eh? The Anglican Church of Canada, formerly the Church of England in Canada, has been enmeshed in colonialism from the beginning here. The clue is in both names. I referenced in an previous thread the statement by our acting Primate on Archbishop Welby’s resignation. There Archbishop Anne Germond writes: “In 2022, the Archbishop of Canterbury visited Canada to listen to residential school survivors and to issue apologies [linked] for… Read more »
Very awkwardly, at the honorary degree ceremony of Wycliffe College, now undertaken under the auspices of and with the attendance of officials of the University of Toronto, Welby devoted his time in response to the honor to harangue the ACC for its horrible mistreatment of indigenous peoples. So, he apparently he thought it his ‘role’ to both apologise for ‘the church’s role’ and then place himself above the fray and speak in a role of Safeguarding. Of course, this is Canada and being polite is a virtue knowing few limits. So, throw that into the mix as well. To now… Read more »
The Speech Welby made at Wycliffe is linked below. Folks can evaluate it against your take on the same. I’ve included an excerpt. In awarding the honorary degree the Wycliffe presser described the office of the ABC: “The Archbishop of Canterbury is the symbolic head of the worldwide Anglican communion.” visit. https://www.wycliffecollege.ca/about/news-media/archbishop-canterbury-justin-welby-receive-honorary-degree-wycliffe Welby’s remarks in Canada were in keeping with the purpose of his visit. https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/speaking-writing/speeches/archbishop-justins-speech-wycliffe-college-canada “We promise to walk with the First Nation, Inuit and Metis and advocate for them as we would a family member. The chasm between the lived reality of indigenous people now and what could… Read more »
“…your concerns about conservative sexual ‘doctrine’ appear to comprehend” — where is this appearing as relevant to the topic at hand and the remarks made?
Justin Welby was invited to Canada because he was the Archbishop of Canterbury at the time. He was not invited because, as you say, ” ‘Communion’ is what is on the tin, and we don’t have that anymore.” Nor was he invited because The Communion is as you opined on the Nov. 12th thread: “Anglicanism is a phantom ship with flapping sails and no one at the helm, the crew dispatched by scurvy.” The apologies that Welby offered were received by Frist Nations peoples variously. Some folks wondered if apologies were really enough. I don’t think any First Nations group… Read more »
“I don’t think any First Nations group that I am aware of would have described his apology as ’embarrassing’ or ‘impolite’. ” I was speaking about faculty reactions to his remarks in Toronto, so I don’t know if you are confusing matters on purpose. I said nothing about the First Nations’ response. Though if I hear you correctly, I tend to agree they might well have thought, ‘who is this man from somewhere else who had nothing to do with this’? Global apologies are often gestures. As for Welby resigning, it strikes me as really not getting at the issues involved.… Read more »
“I said nothing about the First Nations’ response” What you wrote: “Welby devoted his time in response to the honor to harangue the ACC for its horrible mistreatment of indigenous peoples” What you do here is initiate a reply to my comment about an aspect of Fraser’s opinion which I support with a reference Welby’s invitation to visit Canada specifically in his role as ABC and the apology to First Nations. You then shift ground away from the apology and to your personal opinion about a ‘harangue’ as you term it and how it was allegedly received by some. I… Read more »
You are surely wiser than that?
“Welby devoted his time in response to the honor to harangue the ACC for its horrible mistreatment of indigenous peoples”
IN TORONTO. IN THE CONTEXT OF AN HONORARY DEGREE CEREMONY.
Not in response to the First Nations as such.
OK, this is starting to waste my time.
https://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/news/news-and-statements/archbishop-canterbury-apologises-indigenous-peoples-canada
This is not a Wycliffe Toronto context.
Correct. It is not a Wycliffe context. This is exactly thing I referenced in my initial comment taking Giles Fraser to task for trivializing Archbishop Welby’s travel around The Communion as ‘swanning’ around. You are the one who introduced Wycliffe into the conversation. If you are wanting to say now that Welby’s invitation to Canada and apology were appropriate in his then role, and not simply an irrelevant ‘swanning’ around, then I applaud you on that. In your reply to Simon Dawson you write: “I have been writing about the ABC and the place of his office in the Communion,… Read more »
I ran ACI for 15 years and our concern, shared by RDW, was a coherent anglican communion polity. You will see that in my comments. Your concern over the same-sex issue is your concern. My present judgment is that we are going into a period of recalibration very hard to predict. You missed entirely the thrust of my comments which distinguished Welby’s response to the First Nations and his remarks upon being given an honorary degree at a theological institution on the other side of Canada. At a social event afterward, a colleague was asked about his field, ‘Patristics’ to… Read more »
I can’t comment on the buzz and hearsay from the faculty lounge at Wycliffe. I did not miss the point. I judge the point to be an irrelevant distraction from my critique of Giles Fraser’s flippant comment on ‘swanning.’ In any event, this is going around in circles. I will just end up repeating myself if I continue with this line of comment. You have a blessed Advent AP. I hope to do the same.
Thank you for stopping. It was going around in circles, as you say.
The desire for a coherent Anglican communion polity reminded me of Judith Pinnington’s enormous Oxford D. Phil thesis ” The response of the C of E to a multi confessional society with special reference to North America”. We shared a supervisor ( John Walsh). John told me the thesis became Judith’s apologia for converting to RC’s having come to feel that exporting an Established Church abroad threw up so many problems that a coherent polity was elusive. From the appointment of Stephen Bayne as Executive Officer of the AC until now this seems to have been the case
Great last paragraph, Rod. Subsidiarity is also alive and well at a provincial and diocesan level. We’re so used to it here in the Anglican Church of Canada that strongly centralised national churches seem very strange to us. On Justin Welby’s visit, I was very hesitant about it and I still am. I think the emphasis on his apology has reinforced the myth that he has a pope-like position in world Anglicanism, and it has also obscured the fact that the real leader of the Anglican Church of Canada (Archbishop Michael Peers) gave an official apology on behalf of the… Read more »
I agree. The same seemed true in his Toronto remarks. He was to receive an honorary degree from a theological institution. Instead of staying in that domain, speaking of theological education, seminary life and mission, he launched out into I am Here to Speak as Global Voice.
I think the Anglican ‘pope’ aspect you express is a legitimate and constructive caution although for reasons stated in previous comments in detail. I think the visit was important notwithstanding. I agree re: subsidiarity which is an important concept when considering social issues in a Christian context…something as I said, I agree with Fraser on.
PS: I hope TA readers will access the link. Thanks for doing that.
At the risk of hijacking Rod Gillis’ thread, I wonder if this document might be helpful in giving background and context to this discussion, for those unaware of the colonial schools issue in Canada (and indeed in the USA, Australia and the Pacific Islands). It is an official government publication, describing the damaging effects of colonialism on the health of “two spirit” indigenous peoples in Canada. https://www.ccnsa-nccah.ca/docs/emerging/RPT-HealthTwoSpirit-Hunt-EN.pdf As one can see from a recent fractious thread on TA, Christian discussion of homosexuality and gender variance has a sort Groundog Day repetitiveness – invariably ending up discussing Greek pederasty. I would… Read more »
That’s all well and good, and it may come alongside Mr G’s comments. But to be clear, nothing I have written is on the topic of same sex, two spirit, LGBTGI issues. I have been writing about the ABC and the place of his office in the Communion, given recent developments and the severe decline in the CofE.
My post was indeed intended to come alongside, and supplement, Mr G’s comments.
You all enjoy the discussion. Mr G can speak with you about these matters and not me. Bingo.
Simon, hijack away. lol. The resource you link is most informative. I’ve have attached a link which should lead to The Anglican Church of Canada and a pdf version of: Whose Land Is It anyway? A Manual for Decolonization. See the chapter titled, Two-Spirit Resistance, beginning p. 52. (below) Re: your second to last paragraph, and your reference to what the church of England did a century ago, there are wheels within wheels as it were. My ancestors include highland Scots displaced by the clearances. They were victims of colonialism. However they became settlers on First Nations traditional lands, and… Read more »
Thanks Rod, you are right to point out the intersectionality. Many people suffered under colonialism in many different ways. But from my own perspective, looking at what happened in Canada can be so incredibly useful. Firstly the Canadian government and church has, to its credit, acknowledged what went wrong and produced some wonderful resources to help us understand this history, such as the link you have cited. Within that, these resources help us understand how the church was deeply implicated in this colonial abuse, not just the sexual emotional and physical abuse of children in schools, but the deeper problem… Read more »
Simon, that is one heck of a lot work and research you have done. I notice there is a unit on intersectionality TBA. It is an interesting concept. It interests me because one can have roots in an oppressed group but became a privileged member of the dominant group-so -something that is of personal interest to me personally from that perspective. When I became an Anglican it was a bit of trial for my Roman Catholic family for awhile. Ironically, for the Gillis and MacLellan branches, if I had become Presbyterian, like my great-grandfather, it might have been more ‘culturally’… Read more »
Describing Scottish landlords’ eviction of their tenants as “colonialism” is stretching things somewhat, don’t you think?
No, I don’t think it is.
If you’re talking about the Highland Clearances, its hard to think of a suitable epiphet – many of the landlords, I understand from John Prebble’s book on the subject were actually evicting people of their own nationality, rather in the manner of some Irish landowners.
‘Colonialim’ is perhaps the nearest appropriate one as it describes attitude.
I was puzzled by John Smyth being called a paedophile; my understanding of the word must be a bit too narrow.
On the matter of the Highland Clearances, Prebble’s book is a dubious resource. In 2018, Professor Tom Devine published his magisterial and scholarly ‘The Scottish Clearances’ which is probably the best current account by a professional historian. He offers some assessment of Prebble’s book: ‘Some scholars have rubbished [Prebble’s] ‘The Highland Clearances’ as a work of faction, or a fusion of fact and fiction, rather than a serious work of history. Predictably the book rarely figures in the prescribed reading lists of Scottish universities, except perhaps as an example of partisan historical interpretation. I recall a colleague once setting students… Read more »
One can consult also: Colonialism and the Highland Clearances. Iain MacKinnon. Northern Scotland. Vol.14, Issue 1.University of Edinburgh Press. Argued there that comparatively, The Clearances can be seen through a colonial lens when compared to other features of colonialism by imperial powers, including in this instance racism against the Gaels. On that note it is instructive to look at the colonial figure of Edward Cornwallis. He was involved in the ‘pacification’ of the Highlands. He went on to become the ‘founder’ of Halifax, Nova Scotia–a colony founded on Mi’kmaq lands. A statue of him was recently removed from a down… Read more »
Thank you Rory. Personally I regard the Clearances as pretty much ‘ethnic cleansing’… or at least, the eviction of communities and their values and ways of life. As someone with family in the Highlands, and having lived there myself, and also as a mountaineer who has seen countless ruins in once-teeming glens that are now desolate and lonely and uninhabited… what I observe is the desecration of a way of life, and huge assault on culture and language. The aftermath of Culloden was brutal, and the policies that followed. That there were probably collaborators (some of the more privileged) who… Read more »
Thanks Susannah. I don’t recall hearing about the Canadian Boat Song; but there is a site inside Cape Breton Highlands National Park called Lone Sheiling with a replica crofter’s hut. (link). My first Parish was up near there, St. Andrew’s, Neils Harbour. https://parks.canada.ca/pn-np/ns/cbreton/activ/randonnee-hiking/loneshieling I felt a real spiritual connection when I visited the Scottish Highlands. The day we were up there was rainy and cold, so as a Nova Scotian, I felt right at home. lol. There is a recreation of highlander’s life here covering its evolution over several generations in the Cape Breton Highland Village Museum. The church building… Read more »
A person I had in mind was Sir Charles Trevelyan. He worked with the colonial government in Calcutta, India, still under the control of the East India Company. He returned to Britain and took up the post of Assistant Secretary to the Treasury. During this time he was responsible for facilitating the government’s response to the Great Famine in Ireland and the famine in the Scottish Highlands. By 1848 in Scotland, labour was to be extracted from those requiring assistance. One of the main projects these destitute Highlanders were put to work on were the construction of roads to link… Read more »
Very interesting — thank you. I am even less of a historian, but I do wonder about the imperial legacy in the current situation of the CofE, particularly in terms of what might be called the Evangelical Ascendancy. Smyth & Co’s public school ’theology’ appears to have translated service to the Empire into service to ‘the Work’, ostensibly of Jesus. When this approach is then translated into the hierarchy of the Church of England, I can see how it can lead to a kind of ‘managerialism’ that at best cannot manage and at worst produces the repeated abuses of power… Read more »
I’m fascinated by the association of social class with particular traditions in the church. Nowadays it seems as if a lot of the evangelical leadership in the Church of England is upper class, privately educated. That was not reflected in my own evangelical upbringing. My parents were working class and my father migrated to the middle class when he was ordained in his thirties, but he was never really comfortable in that setting; he had left school at sixteen, did his national service and then went straight into the workforce. Perhaps it’s easy to swallow a stereotype whole. Yesterday I… Read more »
He’s a U of Chicago grad, an intellectual Jew and writer. One might suppose that this Oxfordized version of Christianity would appeal to him. BTW, I knew he was flirting with Christianity as part of his schtick but did not know he converted.
https://youtu.be/68LV_ox5YLw?si=_PmgMFBOsDDC1mTQ
Thanks Daniel. I think Charles Trevelyan’s record is decidedly mixed. He seemed to show greater concern for the destitute Scots than the destitute Irish but that’s not really saying much. My own family history is a bit like his. Like him my ancestor went out to India and came home with a fortune which he somehow ‘acquired’ while working for the East India Company. Like him my family was entangled with the profits of slavery (his in Grenada and mine in St Croix). And the previous generation before this relative of mine, they had been catholics and Jacobites who came… Read more »
John Smyth showed a sexual interest in young men, adolescents, and (especially in Africa) sometimes pre-adolescent boys. To that extent he was a paedophile. His paedophilia took the form of an extreme kind of sadism, though he often followed the beatings with embraces and kisses.
It’s a particularly harmful mix, and I suppose psychiatrists and psychologists might try to explain these twisted compulsions. The rest of us can only guess, and agitate for the C of E to adequately compensate the survivors for the C of E’s cover-up and years of re-abuse.
This paper, linked by Froghole a few years back, might be relevant to your comment. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/transactions-of-the-royal-historical-society/article/enclosure-as-internal-colonisation-the-subaltern-commoner-terra-nullius-and-the-settling-of-englands-wastes/E7082C68E07BB68720B3BB024B9D5AB3 “AbstractIn the past decade, scholars of the here-and-now have (re)discovered the concept of enclosure, applying it with considerable zeal and in a bewildering variety of situations: from the securitisation of the Internet, and patenting genes, to attempts to privatise urban ‘public’ spaces, the English ‘enclosure story’ is presented as a given, a narrative that is set in stone. One critical aspect of this account is that enclosure was exported to Britain’s overseas colonies in a one-way process. This paper shows, however, that from the… Read more »
Good stuff. I was thinking about that particular resource Froghole referenced awhile ago, and wondering if I could locate it if need be. And here it is. Thanks. One of the commonalities among various forms of colonialism is land–its acquisition or appropriation or control. The Scots arrived here as a result of economic displacement leading to a kind of forced emigration to ‘British North America’. They were then ‘given’ land under the banner of Crown land grants in what is traditional Mi’kmaq territory. Natural resources and the policies to obtain and exploit them are the back bone of any colonial… Read more »
Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past’
Glad to be of service with the Froghole link, I have all sorts of his recommendations squirrelled away. Can I ask a favour in return please. You recently mentioned a Canadian scandal about a war poet found to be gay. Can you remind me of him I want to do a website project on the Whitman, Carpenter, Sassoon, Owens chain. Each inspired/mentored the next in poetry and in life, and I want to link that back (and Sassoon’s protest, and Owen’s poetry) to Whitman’s dear love of comrades. Your story would be a good way to lead in to it.… Read more »
Good morning Simon. Col. John McRae, WWI poet, author of In Flanders Fields. See links below. The poem and its author are iconic in Canada. The poem is a central feature of Remembrance Day here. The controversy raged around the fact that (1) McRae may have been gay and (2) the tone deaf heterosexist view of some that merely asking the question is a slur.
Here is the article by historian Sean Kheraj.
https://www.seankheraj.com/heterocentrism-in-canadian-history-the-john-mccrae-controversy/
In Flanders Fields, is recited here by another Canadian Icon
Leonard Cohen.
https://youtu.be/cKoJvHcMLfc
Perfect, thanks.
Colin Coward’s piece is powerful and has put into words what I think and feel about the current crisis better than I reckon I could. I hope his call is listened to. Coward is hardly the right surname for him, as someone must have already observed. I agree with much of Giles Fraser’s analysis too, though I hope and pray his worst fears about the C of E’s direction of travel are not realised.
The word “obscene” is overused, and after a time loses its power. I think there is something obscene about a bishop taking an horrific scandal in which his fellow bishops have manifestly failed in the face of evil, and getting in a few steps to his usual sniping at LLF. The linking of the Smyth case and LLF is tenuous at best, and speaks of a very nasty basic premise: “these homosexuals”, he appears to be saying, “need to be kept in check, lest they do this sort of thing”. That Smyth would have been absolutely alongside him both on… Read more »
He is also making a very, very bad argument in his parallel with aviation safety. Aviation safety indeed operates a culture which can be seen to sacrifice the sanctioning of the guilty in exchange for learning about how events happened. But with a minute number of exceptions — there are a very small number of cases in which pilots have committed suicide, or murder, from the controls of an airliner — pilots to not set out to cause harm. Even in cases in which you can point clearly to a single pilot’s mistake, perhaps born of egotism or arrogance, causing… Read more »
Not sure that I entirely share your understanding of aviation safety, perhaps because I was a naval aviator, not commercial sector. Flying from a deck has always been highly dangerous, but with great efforts the once horrendous naval air accident rate has steadily declined so that it is now much closer to land-based aviation. Two big elements in this are absent from CofE. First of all whistleblowing is both encouraged & rewarded. Secondly it is expected that incidents will continue to happen & that it is what you do about them that is important. Thus any inspection will look at… Read more »
A tenuous point worth making apropos of aviation safety is this. The flight data recorder, originally termed the ‘black box’, was invented by the son of an Australian Anglican clergyman. The inventor, Dave Warren (1925-2010), was the son of Rev Hubert Warren and wife Ellie. Hubert died in a plane crash in the Bass Strait in 1934. At that time he was a parish clergyman in Sydney, though he had previously worked in remote parts of Australia. Dave Warren graduated from the University of Sydney in about 1945, then went to Imperial College in London to do a PhD in… Read more »
My father lost his beloved cousin in the Tenerife disaster (on the Pan Am), Interested, thank you for that reminder. May all RIP. [And agree re your analysis of the improper comparison to Smyth!]
‘The image of a sound-proofed shed containing nothing but a leather-bound Bible and dressings for the wounds of those he abused is sickening. But we need to be clear that this was an abuse of theology’ (Philip North) Yes, let’s just ignore the agonised boys in that shed, whose blood spattered the walls, and think about theology instead. Of course Smyth twisted theology for his own ends, as did Peter Ball, Gordon Rideout, and so many others. At least Smyth did in England; in Africa he dropped the pretence. But what is at the centre in this appalling case is Smyth’s victims.… Read more »
This complaint sounds like the product of a search for grievance. +North isn’t ignoring the victims just because the sentences you object to make the particular point (rather important, it might be thought, especially in respect of theology) that abusus non tollit usum.
My Latin is O level and a long time ago. Pl tell me what abusus non tollit usum means. And as an Anglican, I attach importance to ‘understanded of the people’.
The abuse (of something) does not take away its proper use
There are ways of making points which are not crass and insensitive, as this one was. Perhaps it’s you who are searching for a grievance?
Oh dear- I think the point that many of us take away from this – in English- is that we are concerned about the sadistic physical abuse of the stripped young men and boys … This may have grown out of abused theology but reparation for the now grown up men is a very long time coming . And I doubt the thought that this may be a wake up call to the church and so a cause for joy as x North suggests will help heal their emotional wounds
I find Philip North’s piece to be totally disingenuous. He spoke passionately against independent regulation of safeguarding when Nye, Cottrell etc sacked the ISB for being too independent and told brazen lies to Synod. North’s diocese has an atrocious record on safeguarding NDAs, payoffs etc. We will finally be getting somewhere when the opinion of any bishop on these matters is worthless and irrelevant, as safeguarding will be in the hands of independent professionals who are externally regulated and properly trained, and not accountable to bishops and their weird mercurial agendas. Nothing is going to restore a scintilla of trust… Read more »
Yes. But I would except the Bishop of Newcastle.
I wonder if bullying behaviour would come within the remit of safeguarding, for, if so, the Bishop of Newcastle ceases to be so squeaky clean. I have been at the receiving end of such behaviour from her and know of others as well.
Whether or not your comment is justified, it is made is a sign of a dysfunctional leadership system within the Church of England. Bishops may be not above challenge, but they can make life extremely difficult for anyone challenging them, and if they really are bullying, who is there to hold them to account? So in the absence of an effective system we are left with (yet again) rumours, hearsay, bad behaviour supposedly common knowledge, but people not speaking up, issues unresolved, potential harm and injustice, stressed and insecure workers. On and on it goes.
I am sorry to hear this. ‘Bullying’ is an interesting word and runs along an extensive spectrum. If it is significant I hope you have followed the appropriate channels. If not, I wonder why you choose to make such an allegation here.
I am reminded of the then Secretary of State for Defence, Gavin Williamson, telling Russia to “Shut up and go home’. I didn’t think a sensible use of language then, and i don’t think it is in this context either.
Interesting comments by Colin C, which I find intriguing. Yes, I too, do my best to believe in a caring, compassionate and gender free God – my reading of the Bible and my own common sense both point me in that direction. But there’s a practical cultural problem; how do you refer to the divine nature without using titles which aren’t sexually or otherwise loaded? I write thoughts which I circulate among church friends, and find it very difficult not to describe God as ‘Father’, or otherwise use masculine terms. After all, its what I (and they) are used to… Read more »
John Davies, I know you share with me belief in a caring, compassionate and gender-free God – and you highlight the challenge of language, the cultural problem of referring to the divine using words and titles that are not gender specific or, for me at least, anthropomorphic. The problem for us in the Church of England is that we were stuck with Common Worship which didn’t really tackle the challenge at all, focused as it is on being as biblically dense as possible. There is, or was, plenty of material available: from the St Hilda Community, Jim Cotter, the prayer… Read more »
Thanks for your comments, Colin. As is often the case, you and I are traveling in the same direction, but at possibly different levels of intellect and understanding. This morning I read some comments on another site, ‘Unherd’. H’mmmm. The majority of them seemed to come from people anchored to the 1662 BCP as a solution to all our problems. For me, that’s fossilisation (no disrespect intended) because language is a living organism, capable of perpetual change – but not everyone likes that. I suppose that’s human nature, but we do have to move on at times. For myself, I… Read more »
My goodness, the responses to Giles Fraser’s quite good suggestions (IMO—though I disagree about closing of churches during pre-vaccine COVID: that was essential) rather reminds me of YouTube: “Don’t read the comments!”
I was a nurse at the time and I agree with your view on church closures when the pandemic struck. That was showing solidarity with the NHS, and setting an example to the public.
Am I alone in thinking this whole thread a waste of space and pandering to the present C of E infatuation with sexuality issues. In St Pauls’s time it was food offered to idols. Anything to divert from the Gospel and life in Christ. Sexuality to me is a second (or even much lower) issue. Paul’s comments were written in the context of his time, nothing linking to 21 century practice. I want a church which shows the relevance of the faith in its various manifestations, charismatic, Con Evo, liberal, Catholic etc. I often look to Milton: ‘The hungry sheep… Read more »
I don’t exactly know the answer to your question John. I believe almost the whole gospel (probably IS the whole gospel) is opening our hearts to the flow of God’s compassionate love, and letting that love and compassion reach out toward other people, in lives devoted (in the religious sense) to God, and in the service of others. Being realistic, people have various ways of understanding doctrinal specifics, but the fundamental imperative is opening to love on a day to day basis: and that is the Way of the Cross. Looking at most parishes and most parishioners (if I could)… Read more »
Thank you, Susannah.I think you’ve just expressed much of my own core vision, far more clearly than I could ever do. ‘Live and let live’ is probably the most important (but omitted) of the Beatitudes in my opinion. And, if I’m reading him correctly, I’m also in sympathy with Dr John. Right now there are homeless, crippled and wounded, sick and dying in Gaza and Lebanon, Nepal, Sudan, and down the road in central Birmingham. Many, many decent, hard working Christians are doing their level best to address those situations. There’s a massive need for God’s love in action out… Read more »
I think it might be more accurate to quote St Paul from 1 Tim…
“As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies.“
Keen on right doctrine… unkeen on genealogies.
One man’s heretic is another man’s saint. Right now, helping the starving and others is more important. Since penning the above I’ve learned that the two biggest homeless refuges in Birmingham have been closed and, as one former rough sleeper has said, people are going to die this winter as a result. That, to me at least, is infinitely more important than ecclesiastical debate – as Tear Fund used to say, ‘They can’t eat prayer’, or use doctrinal debate to keep warm. (Well, they could, I suppose, wrap some of the printed discussions round them.) What happened to the ‘kingdom… Read more »
Perhaps both are important… it’s possible to do more than one thing at a time?
However I was only suggesting that you had, misremembered a quotation. Surely an argument should not be built on a faulty base?
I think this link sums up pretty much what I feel about all this:
https://www.catholic365.com/article/4021/when-jesus-came-to-birmingham.html
The poem’s stuck with me for many years – the closing reference to Revelation (not, I think in the original) sums up everything ‘Woodbine Willie’ was saying.
God bless.
Thank you. It’s a cutting poem, still so valid.
But the Revelation quote, in its own context isn’t really a fit beyond the superficial. I’m preaching on it in a weeks time…
God bless you too!
Thank you. I have always worried about a church which ‘reaches out’ to a narrow audience. In the real world are found many of diverse beliefs.