I take my hat off to Helen King, she has infinite patience with the CofE and its more dotty ideas than I ever had. Even as a gay bachelor I recoiled at the idea of discussing my love life with other clergy, much less subjecting my partner if I had one to the same process. The clerical profession has to be one of the gossipiest. I was once warned that confidential in the CofE meant that you only told one person at a time. Bishop’s staff meetings thrive on discussing the salacious details of the clergy’s lives, so best not… Read more »
You may recall I once mentioned being in a church whose elders and pastor had the idea of rigidly interrogating couples for marriage preparation, and demanding they lived apart, if cohabiting, before they’d let them marry? It so happened that when Jill and I were beginning to think about marriage – we were around 39 at the time – she met that particular pastor at Spring Harvest, and he made it very clear that, due to this being her second marriage, she would be very seriously interrogated (put through the mill) as to why her first one failed, and whether… Read more »
Simon Dawson
3 months ago
Reference “The Luxury of Marriage”. As an academic historian Helen King is usually so good in providing primary sources for her analysis, for example her many blogs on the CofE LLF Process make cogent use of many General Synod papers. What is missing in this blog is such a primary source – reference to, or citing of, the actual statement or evidence from Southwark Diocese that evidences the exclusion of same-sex partners in CPs from the course. All we have is a mention of a Twitter post without quoting the post, and so we are left guessing what actually happened… Read more »
Ok Simon, I’ve added in two references to Twitter, including a message from ‘Anna and the Comms team’. Not everyone is willing to put their heard above the parapet, of course. I have heard from others in Southwark too, most recently adding the information that one of the organisers hadn’t registered that couples in CPs would like something on these lines and that something may be arranged. But it’s not easy to give links on that.
As for ‘who made what decision’? I don’t know, and it would take someone within the diocesan structure to share such details.
Helen, that clarification is very helpful. Thank you, and I accept that not all commenters may wish to be identified. It was just that nowhere in your original article did it actually offer evidence of a policy decision to ban same sex couples in CPs, so I was wanting to clarify that one way or the other. But your “most recently adding the information that one of the organisers hadn’t registered that couples in CPs would like something on these lines and that something may be arranged”. Is also helpful. In my experience these things can happen unintentionally due to… Read more »
Last edited 3 months ago by Simon Dawson
Adrian Clarke
3 months ago
One synod member says this, another says that. It’s a marriage course and the C of E does not support same sex marriage in any shape or form. Meanwhile the orthodox church is getting on with its mission, with many people becoming Christians every day and new congregations popping up everywhere.
You are overstating the position. Same sex couples can now be blessed in the C of E. Those arranging the Marriage Course must be aware of that, and of the number of gay and partnered clergy and lay people in the C of E – the lengthy LLF process has had plenty of coverage. It seems they simply didn’t think these LGBT people would want to sign up for the Marriage Course.
Since the Church of England recognises the rites of other churches in the Anglican communion and some of those marry same sex couples your assertion is wrong, I think.
No one has a monopoly on orthodoxy. Just as no one has a monopoly on patriotism. Those who think they do are operating above their rank and pay grade. Marriage is not a touchstone of orthodoxy. Those who say it is are walking in the borderlands of heresy.
I write as an orthodox member of the CofE: because I believe in the two touchstones of orthodoxy: the Trinity, and the Divinity and Humanity of Jesus our Saviour.
And yes I am married to my same sex husband. You have clearly not yet learned how little you know.
Kate Keates
3 months ago
If I was in an out same sex couple in Southwark and wished to attend I would register and make them reject me.
I take my hat off to Helen King, she has infinite patience with the CofE and its more dotty ideas than I ever had. Even as a gay bachelor I recoiled at the idea of discussing my love life with other clergy, much less subjecting my partner if I had one to the same process. The clerical profession has to be one of the gossipiest. I was once warned that confidential in the CofE meant that you only told one person at a time. Bishop’s staff meetings thrive on discussing the salacious details of the clergy’s lives, so best not… Read more »
You may recall I once mentioned being in a church whose elders and pastor had the idea of rigidly interrogating couples for marriage preparation, and demanding they lived apart, if cohabiting, before they’d let them marry? It so happened that when Jill and I were beginning to think about marriage – we were around 39 at the time – she met that particular pastor at Spring Harvest, and he made it very clear that, due to this being her second marriage, she would be very seriously interrogated (put through the mill) as to why her first one failed, and whether… Read more »
Reference “The Luxury of Marriage”. As an academic historian Helen King is usually so good in providing primary sources for her analysis, for example her many blogs on the CofE LLF Process make cogent use of many General Synod papers. What is missing in this blog is such a primary source – reference to, or citing of, the actual statement or evidence from Southwark Diocese that evidences the exclusion of same-sex partners in CPs from the course. All we have is a mention of a Twitter post without quoting the post, and so we are left guessing what actually happened… Read more »
Ok Simon, I’ve added in two references to Twitter, including a message from ‘Anna and the Comms team’. Not everyone is willing to put their heard above the parapet, of course. I have heard from others in Southwark too, most recently adding the information that one of the organisers hadn’t registered that couples in CPs would like something on these lines and that something may be arranged. But it’s not easy to give links on that.
As for ‘who made what decision’? I don’t know, and it would take someone within the diocesan structure to share such details.
Helen, that clarification is very helpful. Thank you, and I accept that not all commenters may wish to be identified. It was just that nowhere in your original article did it actually offer evidence of a policy decision to ban same sex couples in CPs, so I was wanting to clarify that one way or the other. But your “most recently adding the information that one of the organisers hadn’t registered that couples in CPs would like something on these lines and that something may be arranged”. Is also helpful. In my experience these things can happen unintentionally due to… Read more »
One synod member says this, another says that. It’s a marriage course and the C of E does not support same sex marriage in any shape or form. Meanwhile the orthodox church is getting on with its mission, with many people becoming Christians every day and new congregations popping up everywhere.
You are overstating the position. Same sex couples can now be blessed in the C of E. Those arranging the Marriage Course must be aware of that, and of the number of gay and partnered clergy and lay people in the C of E – the lengthy LLF process has had plenty of coverage. It seems they simply didn’t think these LGBT people would want to sign up for the Marriage Course.
And of course most Christians in same sex partnerships are orthodox.
Since the Church of England recognises the rites of other churches in the Anglican communion and some of those marry same sex couples your assertion is wrong, I think.
I wish we did recognise the rites of other parts of the Communion but generally we don’t.
Surely being in full communion means that we do?
No one has a monopoly on orthodoxy. Just as no one has a monopoly on patriotism. Those who think they do are operating above their rank and pay grade. Marriage is not a touchstone of orthodoxy. Those who say it is are walking in the borderlands of heresy.
I write as an orthodox member of the CofE: because I believe in the two touchstones of orthodoxy: the Trinity, and the Divinity and Humanity of Jesus our Saviour.
And yes I am married to my same sex husband. You have clearly not yet learned how little you know.
If I was in an out same sex couple in Southwark and wished to attend I would register and make them reject me.