Jo Winn-Smith OneBodyOneFaith Lent
Andrew Goddard Psephizo What is going wrong with the Canterbury appointment process?
Tim Wyatt The Critical Friend Beyond reproach
“The torturously complicated process to choose the new Archbishop of Canterbury is losing the faith of one half of the church”
Mark Clavier Well-Tempered Clergy Burnout and the Cure of Souls
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Is Truth Dead?
I am very grateful to Tim Wyatt for setting out the issues so clearly and Andrew Goddard for enabling me to at least partly understand the nightmare of the process. Tim’s conclusion is very worrying and where I disagree with him is that the danger should be that process to choose the ABC should be losing the faith of all the church and those outside looking in aghast, not just our conservative sisters and brothers. It seems to me that our processes work brilliantly if we all basically agree and everything seems obvious, but they can’t cope with any level… Read more »
It sounds labyrinthine and not a process to repeat but I think it’s a storm in a teacup. I suspect a tiny portion of the church is engaged with the process and I can’t see frustration with it having any great damaging effect.
It makes good copy to talk about it though.
We only need to look at the many well-resourced single-parish ministries, where clergy still insist they experience ‘burnout’, to know that resourcing isn’t really the problem.
Sneering contempt from lay people for the difficulties clergy face is likely also a contributing factor.
I’ve never heard anyone sneering at specific clergy. Quite the opposite.
‘Well resourced’ in what sense?
A parish which has a whole full-time priest to itself. Isn’t this what Save the Parish are asking for.
I would consider a parish well-resourced if it has a priest, competent church officers, and enough financial resources to get by. Able musicians would be a lovely bonus.
If you read Mark Clavier’s excellent article on clergy burn-out you will see why there is so much pressure on clergy. Parishes which once had a vicar and several curates now have one vicar, or only a fraction of a vicar. But a huge administrative burden has been added, and the expectations of clergy have not been reduced since there were several to a parish.
The “huge administrative burden” where “expectations have not reduced” sums up the situation well Janet. Sadly, the huge administrative burden is a problem for all the caring professions & for small businesses: compliance, safeguarding, accountability, bid submissions, reports for reports sake – not to mention the bottomless e-mail inbox – taking away from the actual work of teachers, GPs etc and stifling small businesses & the much sought after growth. I fear AI will add to this workload rather than reduce it. It’s all a creeping increase so never addressed – but needs to be. I don’t take away from… Read more »
I understand that there are now so few ‘well resourced single parish ministries’ still living wild in the provinces that there are plans to livestream them on the BBC….
But there are many in urban areas. How do you explain their decline?
Pardon me for asking, Oliver, but have you ever ventured beyond the virtual M25? More seriously, on those odd occasions when I have scanned the sits. vac. columns, single-parish benefices seem mainly to be available in the south-eastern corner, plus the odd honeypot within the orbit of a university, or a HTB plant. Consequently I don’t feel your generalisations are particularly helpful diagnostically or forensically. As an example of the unhelpfulness of imprecise context, years ago I received a Christmas Round Robin (you remember them, ‘Since we arrived, the congregation has trebled… Aramintha has just celebrated her fourth birthday by… Read more »
The Diocese of London, one of the best resourced in the country, has seen a 20% decline in the last decade. I haven’t studied every incumbant to see what they do with their time, but neither has anyone else. It’s human nature for people to believe they’re overworked. It’s human nature for people’s faith to ebb and flow. There have been some massive breaches of trust in the church in the past. Don’t you think it’s just possible that some clergy decide to do only the bare minimum. Clergy need to be left to their own devices, but if the… Read more »
The Church of England is unwilling to face a more fundamental problem: people no longer believe in institutions. It doesn’t matter how hard the institution works, or how much it changes, the basic concept of institutions as a force for good has gone. Government, charities, professions, even schools: people no long believe that the man (and it usually is a man) in Whitehall (other Zone 1 locations are available) knows best. And they have good reason for that, as all the evidence is that institutions are nothing like the forces for good that was made out. So here we are.
IO, you make a good point here. CofE ‘leadership’ has shown itself to be fallible and untrustworthy- bishops and archbishops as well as charismatic ‘leaders’. Sadly, folk are looking for ‘strong leadership’ as in ‘Far Right’, ‘Hard left’, ‘Winners’ not Loser and whingers, the ‘succesful’ with big cars and egos, etc etc. It was ever thus, as Jesus testifies. perhaps a time for ‘the church’ in exile to repent of its love of power, being right, rejecting poor parishes, laying down unbearable Canon Law. The remnant will live on where it is at home, self-supporting, looking to Jesus for inspiration… Read more »
The mention of ‘big cars’ reminds me of a conversation I had with a ‘Lay Clerk in Religion’ some fifty years ago. Let me say that he was a decent, friendly guy not normally given to eccentricity. He was also of very high intelligence. Once in conversation with a group of students he informed us (not that we really needed informing) that a diocesan bishop gets a more expensive car than a suffragan bishop, and added that he saw that as ‘one of the scandals of the Church of England’. Surely, in any organisation the higher the seniority the greater… Read more »
Burnout is one of the factors which must be taken into account. People suffering from burnout are far less effective than those who are refreshed. In fact they may even do harm – as John Tiller pointed out in his 1984 report A Strategy for the Church’s Ministry. In the 40 years since then, things have only got worse. As for London churches being well resourced, some are and some aren’t. Big evangelical churches like HTB have loads of staff, while a middle of the road church in an inner city area with high migration may have half an overworked… Read more »
How about you provide some substantive evidence for this comment please? Examples of single church parish burnout? This is because I have noted your history of relentless criticism of clergy including regular claims of incompetence and laziness – which does nothing to improve the situation. I think at the very least you need to provide examples to justify your comments about burnout in single parish ministries.
Isn’t sacramentalism the cause of the problem, always requiring a priest to be present whilst quenching the priesthood of all believers? Thus the priest becomes the bottleneck in the system, and this is where strain and stress inevitably builds. In Christendom, sacramentalism can be used as a method of control, but post Christendom it becomes a constraint unable to release the gifts held within the congregation. If he/she can evangelise/teach/prophesy/pastor/lead let him/her evangelise/teach/prophesy/pastor/lead.
”Limiting factors”?!
You must think Jesus was very silly when He instituted sacraments. Obviously you are very wise in wanting them abolished.
It all depends on how we think Jesus meant them to be implemented. One problem, I will admit, with ‘Bible only’ or Restoration expositors such as Watchman Nee and David Pawson is that they take no recognition of possible future developments…..
David, I can’t follow this response to Adrian. He’s clearly not wanting abolition. He is clear the bottleneck is “priests “. I can’t see where Jesus instituted your restrictive “priesthood ” theology. It’s a matter of church order with no significant (none?) New Testament rules/directions.
One may disagree but it is entirely reasonable.
The Church decides “church order”. Jesus didn’t institute convents and monasteries, parishes and deaneries or the Mothers’ Union. I see no New Testament rules about how the Church develops. Scouring the NT for every developing belief is the preserve of the fundamentalist.
Neither do I…. if we’re talking about set structures. That’s my point…
Quite. The 39 Articles agree with you too. Ordination is not a sacrament and was originally just the equivalent of granting a PTO. I’m not sure when it got corrupted.
When were the apostles granted PTO? Did Jesus sign the application form?
‘What about the 39 Articles?’ asked a conscience stricken young ordinand in 1968. The Dean of the college replied,’ John, what about the treaty of Versailles.’ The 39 Articles are part of our history but are also political and polemical and perhaps not the best lode star in 2025. To declare ‘Ordination is not a sacrament’ gives scant acknowledgement of the fact that the Church of England has a breadth of opinion and many loyal Anglicans firmly believe Ordination to be a sacrament as well the other six of the seven sacraments. Baptism and the Eucharist are the prime ones.… Read more »
What’s the difference between saying that the 39 Articles define Anglicanism and those who say women can’t be priests “because of tradition”?
As I belong to neither camp I think both points of view quaint.
If people want to believe they are a sacrament, that’s fine so long as they don’t try to impose that on others and, at the moment, they are which is why Adrian called out sacramentalism.
So glad it is fine.
In the eyes of a significant minority the Church of England is already allowing people who aren’t validly ordained to preside over the Eucharist. Dropping the requirement that the president should be ordained would be unifying since people could then stop squabbling over whether women can, or cannot, be ordained.
Instead, they would argue whether women can or cannot preside over a legitimate Eucharist.
That is simply disobedience.
It is schismatic , not unifying.
Either we are Anglicans or not.
That is simply at loggerheads with Anglican discipline but perhaps that does not bother you.
I assume you are not a priest. if you are you are simply breaking the promises that you made at ordination.
Kate, Canon C 1 defines “Of Holy Orders in the Church of England” as followed “from the Apostles’ time” comprising bishops, priests and deacons, declaring ordination to be mandatory and stating the permanence of their ordained office.
People in Holy Orders in Catholic time are not permitted to marry. Canon C1 clearly ignored that.
Roman Catholic do you mean?
Roman Catholicism: presbyters are priests and have a monopoly on the Eucharist but can’t marry
Protestantism: presbyters are ministers and don’t have a monopoly on the Eucharist but may marry.
I’m firmly Protestant
I never would have guessed!
You’ve forgotten the via media.. It’s called Anglicanism.
This will be news to Presbyterians and Lutherans, both of whom traditionally require ordination to celebrate Holy Communion. The Kirk certainly does (and not just to the eldership either, but specifically to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament). Lay celebration of communion has historically been the province of Baptists and others with a congregational polity who recognise no sacraments at all. The better question is whether the church should ordain priests to celebrate the Eucharist without requiring that they also be preachers and pastors. If there is a shortage of ordained priests to celebrate then more priests would seem the… Read more »
I am perplexed that anyone would raise the question of lay presidency of the Eucharist. The three fold ministry of bishops, priests and deacons is the fundamental theology of the majority of Christians (Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and some Lutheran Churches). Ordaining a priest ceases to have a meaning if lay people can preside at the Eucharist. The reason the Porvoo Communion exists is because of a shared belief in a three fold ministry and why the Church of England lacks full communion with the German EKD. Undoing the Elizabethan settlement by the backdoor has a zero chance of success… Read more »
“Ordaining a priest ceases to have a meaning if lay people can preside at the Eucharist”
No. Ordination marks and individual who has committed their life to ministry.
I thought all Christians committed their lives to ministry? Only some have more ministry than others?
There are varieties of gifts but the same Spirit.
If you object to the canonical beliefs of the CofE why do you remain a member? There are other denominations which accord more with your somewhat unoriginal suggestions.
Not all Anglicans believe in the three-fold order of ministry being bishops, priests, and deacons – at least, not as having a biblical foundation. The New Testament seems to use the terms for bishops and elders interchangeably.
And most evangelicals believe that apostolic succession designates those who follow the apostles’ teaching, not a chain of laying on of hands down two millennia.
Your last few sentences make a lot of sense. Maybe a lot of retired people who have over 20 years energy left in them would be very happy to attend some suitable relevant courses and become ‘worker priests’. But treat them with the respect they deserve.
I think I can see where you’re coming from, but (as a Baptist rather than an Anglican) I’d raise two objections. One is that having priests “doing the rounds” of churches in order to celebrate Eucharist seems, to me at least, to reinforce the idea of something quasi-magical happening as the “right” person uses the “right” words. To me it’s the remembrance of Jesus’ death and sharing in the ceremony which is more important – although I’m not a mere memorialist and do believe that the Holy Spirit comes particularly close during Eucharist. My other objection is the Book of… Read more »
Those are indeed precisely the objections I would expect… which is part of why I’m not a Baptist. 😉 I don’t think having priests “doing the rounds” is ideal, but I do think there is benefit to having the leader of a congregation come in from outside, even if the congregation also has priest(s) ordained from within that congregation. Ordaining more priests to celebrate the Eucharist is not substantially different from a Baptist minister inviting (as I understand is the custom) suitable members of the congregation to lead the prayers of institution for communion. It’s just that with a different… Read more »
Baptists believe in the sacraments of baptism and the Lord’s supper, though they may call them ordnances – in other words, ordained by Jesus.
Not quite correct Kate, Roman Catholic Priests cannot marry but under limited circumstances they can be married before ordination e.g. Eastern rite churches and former Anglican priests and bishops. I believe the same rule applies in the Orthodox churches.
And the Church of England seeks to steer a course between Rome and Geneva! The considered view of the Church of England has been set forth more than once by the House of Bishops and by the Doctrine Commission. The middle way os posited upon the idea of eucharistic presidency. The Church of England does not talk about a sacramental priesthood, though individual members are free to take that position. Neither does it allow for lay presidency. Rather, it says that the celebration of the Eucharist is a corporate act of the Church, not an individualistic act by the minister… Read more »
But there is a big difference between the Church of England choosing – presently at least – to only authorise people to lead the Eucharist whom it considers to be ordained and insisting that theologically only those ordained can validly lead the Eucharist. The first is church order, the second is theology which lacks Biblical justification.
I would hope that a eucharist which was respectfully celebrated, but in the absence of an ordained minister because of circumstances beyond control, will be viewed favourably when entering the pearly gates. Otherwise it is as ridiculous as the obscene views that unbaptised infants do not get a free pass. https://www.catholic.com/tract/infant-baptism I find this tract very offensive, and a gross distortion. What it leaves unsaid is more important than what it says. The thing it leaves unsaid is that baptism is essentially linked to entering the kingdom of heaven. Same perversion when a eucharist is only valid when conducted by… Read more »
I disagree. Apostolic Succession is theology and the majority of Christians (Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and some Lutheran) believe it.
I respectfully suggest that if you object to the power of bishops you are in the wrong church.
Strictly speaking, the churches whose members form a majority of Christians teach it; whether all those Christians believe it, or would know Apostolic Succession if it bit them on the bottom, is another matter entirely.
‘the leaders of the churches whose members form a majority of Christians, who consider themselves to be following the line of Apostolic Succession, teach it’.
Quelle surprise.
You miss my point. What if you are in a remote place and there is a disaster? If a small group decided to celebrate eucharist as a last act, without the attendance of an ordained priest, is it not valid? It would be obscene to suggest otherwise. Or if a baby was about to die, and one of the group decided to enact a baptism? It would be interesting to poll Anglicans on their views on a strict interpretation of apostolic succession. “It’s an ecumenical matter.” I’m with Kate on this matter. Maybe apostolic succession is an even bigger dividing… Read more »
The rules about baptism are very clear. Anyone may be a minister of baptism. The essentials are a candidate and water together with intention. Intention is shown by using the baptismal words that the Church prescribes. Historically, many people other than ordained clergy have baptized — midwives for example in extremis. The rules about presiding at the Eucharist are also very clear: in the Church of England only an episcopally-ordained presbyter, with a licence, may preside. The rules are not concerned with validity but with regularity. The eucharist is the corporate act of the Church and is presided over by… Read more »
I understand the rules. I’m not debating the rules. I am not subject to the rules. I am debating common sense. Plus there are many occasions where I have received communion not from an episcopally-ordained presbyter and it didn’t bother me, nor anyone else.
My daughter once went up with me for a blessing in an Anglican church, and instead took wine and bread without being confirmed. I made no comment.
Presumably you’d receive communion in the RC church since you are not bound by any rules in any church.
I never said I was not bound by any rules in any church! I visited friends in Salamanca in about 1976, we had a small eucharistic gathering in some small room in the new Cathedral (i.e. the 1200 one) , when the priest came to me I was ready to accept communion but the priest refused to give it to me.
That’s my point. You were prepared to break their rules .
Yes, it was their rules, not my rules!
In 2014 I had a period at the Kazakh-British Technical University (KBTU) in Almaty. In advance I emailed the RC authorities in Kazakhstan and said that I doubted whether I’d be able to receive communion and that I’d be happy with a blessing. The below is pasted from the reply I had.
You cannot receive the Body and Blood of Christ in Roman Catholic Church.
But you can receive a blessing.
I was more than happy with that.
I once had a Jewish pediatrician friend, who, if a newly born baby was on the verge of death, would ask the parents if they would like the child baptized before the child died. If so, he would offer to do the baptism (or have a Christian nurse do so). Most of the time the parents asked him to perform the baptism. He said he had performed more baptisms that most clergy he knew. The rules on emergency baptism vary a bit on who can perform the baptism, with some allowing anyone and others limiting it to any baptized person… Read more »
I can understand this. I am sure it can give much comfort to the parents.
What I could not abide is any idea that the babies’ future in Christ in any way depended on whether it had been baptised or not. That is simply grotesque, and I would be with Hatuey on that issue.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatuey
I certainly am not an expert on Orthodox Christian theology. But my understanding is that the Orthodox have largely avoided the issue of unbaptized babies that has been an issue in the West The Orthodox understand that all humans have a tendency to sin. But they have never accepted Augustine’s teaching of “original sin,” a state of sin passed down through the generations from the time of Adam and Eve through the act of sexual intercourse. While the Orthodox believe that humans have a tendency to sin, they believe that this is a mystery that we are unable to explain… Read more »
Not all the churches of the West hold to Augustine’s version of original sin. The Protestant churches of which I have been a member did not, and indeed, don’t baptise infants.
The theology of Protestant churches on these issues (as well as many others) range all over the ballpark. Indeed, there can be a wide variance in the same denominational group. Some Protestants believe in original sin in the Augustinian sense while others’ beliefs are closer to the Orthodox view — humans have a tendency to sin, but that tendency has not been passed down by sexual intercourse from Adam and Eve. Some Protestants, such as Baptists, believe in baptism only at the age of accountability (thus rejecting infant baptism) but baptism is a mere symbol that represents a public individual… Read more »
Well Augustine on original sin is a bit passé
It was Dr Primrose who brought Augustine into the discussion. See her/his comment above.
Augustine is excellent on science and time. If he really thought that erotic joyful loving acts inevitably transmit sin to the unborn child, then he was with the fairies, as are any who currently hold such beliefs.
I read the Confessions in Lamu whilst recovering from sunburn and fever.
My comment stands though!
Extreme theoretical situations do not make for good theology. What if there is no prayer book, what if there is no bread or wine? Would a bottle of beer and a chocolate biscuit do instead? I think you are attempting to leverage the Church of England away from a three fold ministry that has existed as long as there has been a Church of England. What is the point of this ? You are never going to succeed because your suggestion will be seen for what it is: a backdoor attempt to undermine Bishops, Priests and Deacons. If we need… Read more »
I think I should clarify, I am not an anglican priest. I have been very happy to share communion also in a presbyterian church in Houston, it seemed to be an active church, not a crazy ‘super church’. https://www.gpch.org/ I could have gone to the episcopal church next door, but grace church had a bigger organ, on which I used to practice! There are also many Baptist churches I would be happy to share communion in. So, whatever the denomination, I am fine. I think it is common for anglican churches to offer communion to anybody who commonly takes communion… Read more »
You are right, Nigel. When I was 18 I spent a summer volunteering at a US wilderness camp on a remote island. We worshipped together daily, but after 3 months we longed to have Holy Communion. I was a clergy child (my father was a Free Church minister) and another volunteer was the son of a theology lecturer, so we knew how Eucharist was done and we led one together. It was one of the most meaningful Eucharists I’ve ever taken part in, and the palpable presence of God led to confessions, forgiveness, and reconciliation among the staff team. I… Read more »
Thank you. I seem to recall I also ‘shared bread and wine’ with a group of beach holiday evangelists with their leader. No idea what denomination he was, it didn’t seem important.
But wearing underpants does not have biblical authorisation either.
Yes it does. See Gen 3:7, and all the OT instructions re linen underclothes for priests.
But only priests and few of us wear linen kecks.
Adam and Eve were not priests, and didn’t wear linen. Nor do priests currently wear ephods.
But I get your point that not everything we do has ‘biblical authorisation’.
“The considered view of the Church of England has been set forth more than once by the House of Bishops and by the Doctrine Commission.” To which (ignoring the Canons, which as an ordained minister I’m not a liberty to do), you might add the liturgy (including the Ordinal) and the many joint Anglican-Roman Catholic and Anglican-Reformed documents. These latter do not have canonical status, but they do have theological heft. Ecclesiology, including the theology of orders, cannot simply be read off the pages of the New Testament. Ordination is God’s action through his Church, thereby sacramental at least. Eucharistic… Read more »
But it could be argued that Canon C1 was written by bishops, so of course they would want to present an argument which reserved maximum authority and power for themselves. Whether that Canon is historically correct is a very good question. There was a very good discussion on TA only a month ago about this. The meaning of the construct “priest” that people anachronistically project back into their understanding of the early church is very different to what priests actually did and how they were understood at the time. It could also be argued that these arguments of apostolic succession… Read more »
Please see my reply to Janet, below. The present Canons of the C of E were enacted in 1964 to replace the original code of 1603. Amendments and revocations of the code are made by General Synod; some changes were made in 1969 but none to Canon C 1
What evidence is there that the orders of bishops, priests, and deacons, as we now understand them, date back to apostolic times? I don’t see it in the New Testament.
And we are forgetting that widows were also enrolled as ministers. But women tend to have been written out of the records.
Janet, I will address this response to Kate and Simon Dawson as well as yourself. I merely quoted precise words from Canon C 1: here they are again, slightly expanded “The Church of England holds and teaches that from the apostles’ time there have been these orders in Christ’s Church: bishops, priests, and deacons; and no man shall be accounted or taken to be a lawful bishop, priest, or deacon in the Church of England, or suffered to execute any of the said offices, except he be called, tried, examined, and admitted thereunto … ” In fact Canon C should… Read more »
The law isn’t nullified by disagreement, but neither do we have to stop pointing out that it is based on false data.
That has to be a matter of opinion. I am neutral in this discussion, merely pointing out the law as it is for the benefit of those who appear not to know it – yourself excluded, of course!
Rowland, there seems to be a common assumption amongst a lot of commenters here that because some of us suggest things that go against the current laws, we are simply ignorant of the law, and if someone like you or Simon points out what the law says we will be instantly enlightened. We are aware of the laws and traditions. Thank you. But going back to the origin of this discussion, which is clergy burn out and many church communities being deprived of regular Eucharist, some of us feel that the current laws and traditions of the church might need… Read more »
I wish there was a ‘like’ button!
Be careful what you wish for, Janet: ‘like’ buttons are usually paired with ‘dislike’ buttons. Perhaps best that neither are available given the current mood of setting up straw men for others to knock down.
Then you would have to have a dislike button and then things could get even more adversarial than they are already.
Thank you. You (and Janet) won’t be troubled by any further comment from me.
Dear, dear Rowland. Words like cancel, wokeism, toys and pram come to mind. I am sure many will miss your considered contibutions based on your many many years of experience. TA is, to my mind all the better for the sharing of a rich mix of opinions, including those that are wrong, by which I mean are challenging or disputable, of course 😉
Well, you have assumed a meaning which wasn’t intended – nor addressed to you! I vacated my pram nearly 80 years ago!
Rowland, I hope you will keep commenting. It’s always useful to have a legal view on the issues. It’s just that I may disagree with canon law, and that need not imply that I am unaware of it.
Thank you, Janet. I feel that I have exhausted offering any further meaningful or useful comment on this particular subject: that is all.
Rowland, I am sorry if my response appeared abrupt, it’s just that I was frustrated by the opinion displayed by a number of commenters that if certain of us argue for things which go against church tradition or Canon Law, then that can only be because we are ignorant of, or do not care for, tradition and law. That is not the case. It is just that we believe that if the need is great enough then tradition and law can and should be changed, through due process. Following on from the articles about clergy burn-out and the shortage of… Read more »
Thank you. You haven’t offended me. I took exception to a later comment (not yours or Janet’s) which I found personally offensive. I’m the first to admit that I am not thick-skinned.
Rowland, I’m glad to see you are continuing contributing. All comments have potential of giving or taking offence; the immediacy of email response is even mightier than the pen at penetrating subcutaneously. I think (feel?) many of us are relatively thinly skinned. I also note, while writing, the difficulty of conveying irony and nuance in email, hence emojies? 😉
I can see where the misunderstanding has arisen. In my original reply to Simon Dawson (and Janet) I should have added “about this topic”, and I fully accept that omitting that was (unintentionally) misleading.
The World Council of Churches Lima document, Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry, states that “the primary manifestation of apostolic succession is to be found in the apostolic tradition of the Church as a whole.” That is, as a succession not only of ordained ministers but also of churches which have maintained apostolic faith.
Episcopally ordered churches further insist on apostolic succession being grounded symbolically in the episcopate.
The 1662 Ordinal certainly makes a bold claim for the biblical source of its ‘data’. But as both Lima and Anglican-Reformed documents point out, such an exercise ends only in futility.
As counterbalance to protestants like me, we have blogs by Gavin Ashenden on Catholic Unscripted, for example a recent video titled Does the priesthood matter? What is invincible ignorance? Should we risk accusations of rudeness?
If i am ever in danger of becoming a Roman Cathlic, I listen to these kinds of videos. Talk about strawmen!
I suppose there are plenty of protestants who also don;t believe Roman Catholics can be Christians!
I cannot help thinking that the Theological danger here is of confusing the Priesthood of all believers with a Presbyterate of all believers, yes in the New Testament we are certainly taught that we are a Priestly people, that there is a common Priesthood of all believers but what we are not taught is that all believers are Presbyters (Ministerial Priests). We can be in danger theologically of bluring the distinctions between the Common Priesthood of all believers and the ministerial Priesthood . Those in the Anglican Church who take a very Catholic View of Orders, both Lay and Ordained… Read more »
Jonathan, with all due respect, we are not confused. Within the Church of England then a variety of views is traditionally allowed. There are certainly those in the church who take a traditional view that ordination is essential to preside at the Eucharist. But there are others who, having studied the issue carefully, take the view firstly that lay presidency is entirely justified within church history and tradition, and secondly that lay presidency would help to solve some of the problems currently facing the Church of England. There was a time in medicine and in the Armed Forces when there… Read more »
The Methodists have a different ontological view of ordained ministry. Are you suggesting we should all become Wesleyans? Kate might be happier if she joined them where lay people have a more equal role, except their future seems more dire than the CofE.
With respect, you simply cannot ignore Canon law:
“B 12 Of the ministry of the Holy Communion1. No person shall consecrate and administer the holy sacrament of the Lord’s Supper unless he shall have been ordained priest by episcopal ordination in accordance with the provisions of Canon C 1.”
Couldn’t agree more, Adrian. Sacramentalism, in the working world’s context, is known as ‘jobs for the boys’, making one specific person indispensable. There is nothing specifically in the NT which demands it – a lot depends on how much relevance and validity you accord the OT in terms of Christian practice. Those old enough to remember the demise of Meccano Ltd may have heard that one possible reason lay in their only having one particular store man who knew how the ordering and dispatch system worked. He fell seriously ill – as a result, stores full of stock and equally… Read more »
As an ADDO I’m conscious that the vocations process demands much of its participants in terms of ‘providing evidence’. In some cases, this may encourage the innate tendencies of some to overwork. Personally, a quality I’d like to add to the conversation is ‘the ability to stop and/or say no.’
Colin, please don’t think that the lack of comment about your articles does not mean that we do not read them. It is just that the content does not match an instant reaction blog like TA
Any valid response would probably need a long essay rather than a quick note. Or your thoughts need reflection and soak time, so by the time we are ready to respond a few days have passed and things have moved on.
I for one read your articles carefully and value them. I am sure I am not the only one.
Thank you.
Very much agree with this. when Colin said “I wanted to reflect on the ways in which my faith and spiritual practice have been influenced by Eastern wisdom and practice” my instant reaction was that I’d very much value that reflection. In a piece from Colin, some months ago (and possibly not here, can’t remember) he said what we needed were new forms of God, not the search for “new forms of Church” which dominates the C of E website. That rang so many bells for me. I wonder how much clergy burnout reflects not too many churches to look… Read more »
Pam, thank you for adding your thoughts. I’m not sure a blog about Eastern wisdom and practice is going to come next – but eventually there will be more. Did I really write that what we needed were “new forms of God” rather than “new forms of Church”? How outrageous – and exactly right! Well, almost – I think we need new forms of Church as well – certainly I do – or forms that are no longer available. I would find it very difficult to function as a priest in today’s Church knowing that my visions of God and… Read more »
Yes. There seem to be some contributors who comment on almost every group of articles.
Apart from having such stamina one wonders what they do with the rest of their day.
So much focus on ecclesiastical internecine strife would be bad for my mental health!
Literally the reason I gave up commenting on TA although I allow myself the occasional excursion to see what’s going on.
So, Too old … are the contributions of ‘some contributors’ to be less valued, edited, limited, ‘cancelled’ in the words of some? I agree with what you say here about ‘ecclesiastical internecine strife’ and link this to the kind of ‘discussions’ that produced the Nicene Creed and identified certain ways of seeing as heresies to be anathematised. That’s bad for more than mental health! Perhaps gentler ways of disagreement might be found- at least, at present, we are not burning at the stake those we brand as ‘heretics’. We are historically adept at use of the tongue, whether sharp or… Read more »
It would be a shame to edit contributions but clearly some are not published if they are too silly or outrageous.
The obsessives need to have their platform but all in all, the comment threads themselves are seldom such as give an inner glow or even stimulate the mind and soul. ‘I am right, you are wrong’, seldom sheds much light.
I certainly have to agree with you on this. I have possibly edged into ‘ventilating’ on occasion, having got passionate about some aspect of ‘the church’ that I have come to love. I like to think that all TA contributors have that at heart, much as I may disagree, which I often do 😉 I think I may in fact often like the challenge offered by ‘heretics’ in thinking the unthinkable, saying the unsayable, but politely, not hate speech, which I am pleased to have the moderators police.
Simon, thank you so much for responding – I have reached a state of despair some days when I need to know someone out there values me!
And I fully understand (now) why my blogs don’t necessarily receive comments. To write a thoughtful comment requires time and process and I know how it is that time moves on and by the time I’ve thought about responding, the TA commentariat has moved on to a new thread,
Excuse the naive question here. Is there not a major conflict of interest if one’s partner is part of a sensitive, highly secret discernment process and you are a key forensic commentator on that process, especially if the interest group for whom you are primarily producing your commentary appear to be able to exploit weaknesses within that discernment process to block the appointment of candidates that don’t fit within certain controversial criteria?
I too would like to give a shout out to Colin Coward. I appreciate his articles, this one included. For one thing, there are often touch stones with other things I’m reading, e.g. his reference to Alison Webster’s notion: ” towards embodied theologies which take human experience seriously. Such embodied theologies recognise that individuals are subject to systemic forces, where power circulates to oppress some and privilege others on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, social class, and economic means…” . There is an echo there with Leonardo Boff whom I am reading for lent: “We truly need a new… Read more »
Like others, I like and value Colin’s comments. I may not always understand them which means they require more thought, which is not a bad thing, but we are at least travelling in the same direction. Eastern practice doesn’t feature in my thinking, I will confess – I can’t mix Buddhism or Hinduism with faith in a monotheistic God in all good conscience, but can happily draw on Jewish thoughts.
You may draw on Buddhism unwittingly, John, Jewish thought and the New Testament (certainly Paul) were quite influenced by Stoicism at the time, which in turn has much in common with Buddhist thought (and probably inherited a lot of it through Pyrrho and Hellenistic contact with India in the Seleucid empire). Judaism was deeply affected as well, strands of it took on board the transmigration of souls, and believe in it firmly to this day.
Again, I wish TA had a like button. I think we forget to our cost how theological/philosophical thought was a huge interlocked network from China into India, Egypt and Europe in the time of Christ. All of it following the Trade routes. And the biggest trade route of all passed through Galilee and Palestine.
If links are allowed, have a look : https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/reincarnation-the-transmigration-of-a-jewish-idea/
Hi John. Here is a link to, Respect For Everything, something relatively recent by Leonardo Boff together with a quote from the same: “Buddhism, presented as wisdom rather than as a faith, teaches respect for every being, especially those who suffer (compassion). The daily wisdom of Feng Shui integrates and respects all the elements, the winds, the water, the soil, the different species. Likewise, Hinduism preaches respect as active non-violence (ahimsa), that found its referential archetype in Mahatma Gandhi. Christianity knows the image of Saint Francis of Assisi, who respected all beings: the slug on the path, the bee lost… Read more »
It’s one thing to plunder the Egyptians but quite another to worship their gods.
Thank you, Ruairidh – I need to take Leonardo Boff off the shelf and blow off the dust . . . well, having searched, first I need to locate Cry of the Earth. It’s clearly relevant to the connections I’m making.
Righto. I like to dust off thinkers who have been around during that 40 year period theological shift referenced in your article. ( May I suggest the shift actually goes back beyond that). Interesting to see how their ideas hold up (1) in the light of current circumstances and (2) at a later stage in my own life. On the one hand ideas of critical thinkers require ‘updating’ in the light of new problems or new evidence with regard to problems. On the other hand, the really insightful ones are truly prophetic in that in retrospect they have provided a… Read more »
If the results of the Canterbury ViSC election had been published this morning, I would immediately have called it out as an April Fool joke for, surely, it cannot possibly be true, can it? Certainly it should not be allowed to stand without further inquiry for, as Andrew Goddard has forensically pointed out, it raises an incredible number of concerns. It was a complicated process, complicated further, whilst it was already in train, by changes made at the February General Synod. Once the workings are published, it may be possible to see how the extraordinary outcome was arrived at and,… Read more »
Another thread of Much Ado about Bishops- or even Bishops, Priests and Deacons….Colin please keep thinking and posting.
I’m also fascinated that there is a buzz about the Canterbury CNC- which does not sound remotely open and transparent- but silence about the ABCEmeritus Justin Welby’s interview… or the Church Times’s anodyne summary of it
I hope, Susanna, that there is room in these columns both for deep reflections of the sort that Colin Coward so ably offers and for detailed examination and criticism of procedural matters within our polity. I certainly don’t agree with your implication that the latter matters are ‘much ado about nothing’, particularly in the current case of the nomination of a new ABC. I entirely agree with Tim Wyatt’s view that due process in this matter must not only be followed but also be seen to be followed. That certainly doesn’t seem to be the case at the moment and,… Read more »
Malcolm,
‘On the other matter’ as you put it, perhaps someone will prepare an essay (or whatever) that meets the Moderators of TA as ‘worthy’ of publication and discussion. Maybe a TV interview doesn’t qualify. I agree with you (and Private Eye) that JW agreeing to an interview seems a strange way to disappear into obscurity, esp for a man as broken as he appears and seeking understanding, and perhaps forgiveness. He seems to be ‘hanging in’ at Lambeth Palace a lot longer than any parish priest and their family would be allowed.
Hi Malcolm, I was fortunate enough to see the Theatre Royal production of Much Ado last week and I chose my Shakespeare play carefully ! Everything ends happily in the end of course despite the best mischief making by ‘John the bastard’ and with some assistance from a cunning Friar poor maligned Hero( f) escapes ruin by feigning her own death and lives to marry the bloke who said he loved her but then cheerfully believed tales about her lack of virtue and publicly shamed her . Lucky girl- a narrow escape. I was away for the weekend and reading… Read more »
Susannah, you raise the question of where were the advisors who should have been helping Justin Welby. One answer, I suppose, is that he lost any formal support after he left the post of ABC. I have not heard of the church putting in place any arrangements for supporting former ABCs, as happens for former Prime Ministers. Another possibility is that he did have advisers, but that they were the same ‘trusted friends’ who advised him not to resign immediately after the publication of the Makin report, which was thoroughly bad advice, depriving him of the chance to ‘do the… Read more »
The ConEvos started to get active on General Synod immediately prior to 1990, trying to kill off the women priests’ debate. There is still a 1990 Group on General Synod, a secretive group which meets each morning during groups of sessions, praying that the apostates won’t succeed in debates (of whatever kind). They failed with women priests and have largely failed in all other endeavours. In those days the vacancy-in-see committees (VISC) were fairly anodyne, and the dioceses only elected four representatives. The women bishops debate did not engender so much tribal warfare. LLF has changed all that. VISC are… Read more »
Any sane outsider reading this thread would have to conclude. The theology of Orders, the ‘theology’ and ‘ecclesiology’ of the Church of England is incoherent. Full stop.
And any sane outsider wanting to be a Christian in such an entity will be beset, behind and before, with views that rotate like a salad bar in a family restaurant.
A rotation that never ceases so people can be fed.
I wonder where this FrDavid and Kate and Oliver and Janet (add your own names) path is ever meant to lead?
It is meant to lead to Christ, as you well know. The divisions in the CofE reflect (a part of) the divisions in Christianity in general. An inevitable consequence, I would argue, of a national church that claims to be both Catholic and Reformed.
So, let’s imagine a congregation with all these varied and conflicting views. A church. A parish. If it takes the form we see here–of perforce it would do–how could anyone worship? or invite outsiders? The rancor and serious disagreements aren’t over whether people sit in pews or chairs. They are foundational. It is one thing to imagine that the CofE makes some kind of theological sense when it is something like a container, grosso modo, through its (dwindling) parishes across the land, of incompatible views — but to say such views all lead to Christ, just doesn’t make sense. Fr… Read more »
The vast majority of people don’t see the need for a sacramental priesthood or a Church. They ignore it. I happen to believe what the majority of Christians believe about priesthood. Simple.
This comment doesn’t make any sense as something directed to what I have written.
A CofE which contains 4 divergent views on X, might say that makes some kind of sense from 1000 feet. But inside an individual congregation is would be cacophony.
How this is to sustained, now given the sever decline, baffles.
Congregations largely deal with these things at the local level with greater or lesser amounts of grace and forbearance, and by avoiding areas of disagreement. There are a goodly number of lay people who will worship at their local church and accept a female priest even if their own views tend in a Society direction, and conversely people of pro-women and pro-LGBT views who will worship in a FiF church if it’s their parish church. The same principle applies, albeit with a different range of views, in the Kirk, and I suspect anywhere a national church retains some degree of… Read more »
Not wishing to become a complete prig, I’m trying to ignore the more excitable postings. I love the breadth and generosity of Anglicanism; the way in which a measure of ambiguity and untidiness is borne, with some secondary issues left open. But as priests we are no longer our own: at ordination we publicly undertook to be public representatives of the Church, with all the discomfort that brings. Hence it pains me to say that the Church of England is becoming unmoored from her claim to catholicity.
My only point in raising sacramentalism as a potential problem is that if priests are facing burn out, then they should look to the congregation to use their gifts to do the many things that Priests don’t have to do. As only Priests are allowed to preside at the Eucharist, Baptisms, Weddings and Funerals then they should focus on that and release lay people to get on with the Churches mission in its fullest and widest sense. The idea of faith and a wide array of spiritual gifts only being mediated through a priest is why they experience burn out… Read more »
Lay people can baptise.
Lay people can take funerals
I don’t know what the rules are in the C of E, but in TEC a deacon can be the officiant at a wedding if civil law permits a deacon to conduct weddings and no priest or bishop is available. The deacon cannot pronounce the nuptial blessing (or preside at a nuptial Eucharist). TEC BCP at 422.
My apologies for adding any fuel to the fire, but as a lay member of the church, I am trying to balance the debate. I am simply indicating that many simply do not care about apostolic succession, or who is allowed to do what. Yes, we view the theology of Orders, the ‘theology’ and ‘ecclesiology’ of various denominations including CoE, as incoherent, where it is concerned with periphery matters not related to the gospel. To the ‘man in the street’, debates about ‘laying on of hands’ and what may or may not be transmitted by this act makes the church… Read more »
I agree. Most people don’t understand theology. But I don’t think the answer is to abolish it. Teaching people might be preferable, rather than leaving them in ignorance.
Depends on the type of theology, and where it fits into the bible/tradition/thinking spectrum? I find some theological issues discussed here on TA very illuminating. Particularly where a ‘whole bible’ approach is taken rather than particular carefully chosen verses. But other aspects of theology, it is not that they need to be taught, they need to be rejected, the reformers didn’t complete the job (smiley). Certainly proper teaching was absent from my weekly attendance at church until I was about 18. Maybe I was deaf. Wrong thread, but I did just enjoy reading the Johanna Stiebert article on marriage and… Read more »