Jo Winn-Smith OneBodyOneFaith Lent
Andrew Goddard Psephizo What is going wrong with the Canterbury appointment process?
Tim Wyatt The Critical Friend Beyond reproach
“The torturously complicated process to choose the new Archbishop of Canterbury is losing the faith of one half of the church”
Mark Clavier Well-Tempered Clergy Burnout and the Cure of Souls
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Is Truth Dead?
I am very grateful to Tim Wyatt for setting out the issues so clearly and Andrew Goddard for enabling me to at least partly understand the nightmare of the process. Tim’s conclusion is very worrying and where I disagree with him is that the danger should be that process to choose the ABC should be losing the faith of all the church and those outside looking in aghast, not just our conservative sisters and brothers. It seems to me that our processes work brilliantly if we all basically agree and everything seems obvious, but they can’t cope with any level… Read more »
It sounds labyrinthine and not a process to repeat but I think it’s a storm in a teacup. I suspect a tiny portion of the church is engaged with the process and I can’t see frustration with it having any great damaging effect.
It makes good copy to talk about it though.
We only need to look at the many well-resourced single-parish ministries, where clergy still insist they experience ‘burnout’, to know that resourcing isn’t really the problem.
Sneering contempt from lay people for the difficulties clergy face is likely also a contributing factor.
I’ve never heard anyone sneering at specific clergy. Quite the opposite.
‘Well resourced’ in what sense?
A parish which has a whole full-time priest to itself. Isn’t this what Save the Parish are asking for.
I would consider a parish well-resourced if it has a priest, competent church officers, and enough financial resources to get by. Able musicians would be a lovely bonus.
If you read Mark Clavier’s excellent article on clergy burn-out you will see why there is so much pressure on clergy. Parishes which once had a vicar and several curates now have one vicar, or only a fraction of a vicar. But a huge administrative burden has been added, and the expectations of clergy have not been reduced since there were several to a parish.
The “huge administrative burden” where “expectations have not reduced” sums up the situation well Janet. Sadly, the huge administrative burden is a problem for all the caring professions & for small businesses: compliance, safeguarding, accountability, bid submissions, reports for reports sake – not to mention the bottomless e-mail inbox – taking away from the actual work of teachers, GPs etc and stifling small businesses & the much sought after growth. I fear AI will add to this workload rather than reduce it. It’s all a creeping increase so never addressed – but needs to be. I don’t take away from… Read more »
I understand that there are now so few ‘well resourced single parish ministries’ still living wild in the provinces that there are plans to livestream them on the BBC….
But there are many in urban areas. How do you explain their decline?
Pardon me for asking, Oliver, but have you ever ventured beyond the virtual M25? More seriously, on those odd occasions when I have scanned the sits. vac. columns, single-parish benefices seem mainly to be available in the south-eastern corner, plus the odd honeypot within the orbit of a university, or a HTB plant. Consequently I don’t feel your generalisations are particularly helpful diagnostically or forensically. As an example of the unhelpfulness of imprecise context, years ago I received a Christmas Round Robin (you remember them, ‘Since we arrived, the congregation has trebled… Aramintha has just celebrated her fourth birthday by… Read more »
The Diocese of London, one of the best resourced in the country, has seen a 20% decline in the last decade. I haven’t studied every incumbant to see what they do with their time, but neither has anyone else. It’s human nature for people to believe they’re overworked. It’s human nature for people’s faith to ebb and flow. There have been some massive breaches of trust in the church in the past. Don’t you think it’s just possible that some clergy decide to do only the bare minimum. Clergy need to be left to their own devices, but if the… Read more »
How about you provide some substantive evidence for this comment please? Examples of single church parish burnout? This is because I have noted your history of relentless criticism of clergy including regular claims of incompetence and laziness – which does nothing to improve the situation. I think at the very least you need to provide examples to justify your comments about burnout in single parish ministries.
Isn’t sacramentalism the cause of the problem, always requiring a priest to be present whilst quenching the priesthood of all believers? Thus the priest becomes the bottleneck in the system, and this is where strain and stress inevitably builds. In Christendom, sacramentalism can be used as a method of control, but post Christendom it becomes a constraint unable to release the gifts held within the congregation. If he/she can evangelise/teach/prophesy/pastor/lead let him/her evangelise/teach/prophesy/pastor/lead.
”Limiting factors”?!
You must think Jesus was very silly when He instituted sacraments. Obviously you are very wise in wanting them abolished.
It all depends on how we think Jesus meant them to be implemented. One problem, I will admit, with ‘Bible only’ or Restoration expositors such as Watchman Nee and David Pawson is that they take no recognition of possible future developments…..
David, I can’t follow this response to Adrian. He’s clearly not wanting abolition. He is clear the bottleneck is “priests “. I can’t see where Jesus instituted your restrictive “priesthood ” theology. It’s a matter of church order with no significant (none?) New Testament rules/directions.
One may disagree but it is entirely reasonable.
The Church decides “church order”. Jesus didn’t institute convents and monasteries, parishes and deaneries or the Mothers’ Union. I see no New Testament rules about how the Church develops. Scouring the NT for every developing belief is the preserve of the fundamentalist.
Quite. The 39 Articles agree with you too. Ordination is not a sacrament and was originally just the equivalent of granting a PTO. I’m not sure when it got corrupted.
When were the apostles granted PTO? Did Jesus sign the application form?
‘What about the 39 Articles?’ asked a conscience stricken young ordinand in 1968. The Dean of the college replied,’ John, what about the treaty of Versailles.’ The 39 Articles are part of our history but are also political and polemical and perhaps not the best lode star in 2025. To declare ‘Ordination is not a sacrament’ gives scant acknowledgement of the fact that the Church of England has a breadth of opinion and many loyal Anglicans firmly believe Ordination to be a sacrament as well the other six of the seven sacraments. Baptism and the Eucharist are the prime ones.… Read more »
What’s the difference between saying that the 39 Articles define Anglicanism and those who say women can’t be priests “because of tradition”?
As I belong to neither camp I think both points of view quaint.
If people want to believe they are a sacrament, that’s fine so long as they don’t try to impose that on others and, at the moment, they are which is why Adrian called out sacramentalism.
So glad it is fine.
Kate, Canon C 1 defines “Of Holy Orders in the Church of England” as followed “from the Apostles’ time” comprising bishops, priests and deacons, declaring ordination to be mandatory and stating the permanence of their ordained office.
People in Holy Orders in Catholic time are not permitted to marry. Canon C1 clearly ignored that.
Roman Catholic do you mean?
Roman Catholicism: presbyters are priests and have a monopoly on the Eucharist but can’t marry
Protestantism: presbyters are ministers and don’t have a monopoly on the Eucharist but may marry.
I’m firmly Protestant
I never would have guessed!
You’ve forgotten the via media.. It’s called Anglicanism.
This will be news to Presbyterians and Lutherans, both of whom traditionally require ordination to celebrate Holy Communion. The Kirk certainly does (and not just to the eldership either, but specifically to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament). Lay celebration of communion has historically been the province of Baptists and others with a congregational polity who recognise no sacraments at all. The better question is whether the church should ordain priests to celebrate the Eucharist without requiring that they also be preachers and pastors. If there is a shortage of ordained priests to celebrate then more priests would seem the… Read more »
Not quite correct Kate, Roman Catholic Priests cannot marry but under limited circumstances they can be married before ordination e.g. Eastern rite churches and former Anglican priests and bishops. I believe the same rule applies in the Orthodox churches.
And the Church of England seeks to steer a course between Rome and Geneva! The considered view of the Church of England has been set forth more than once by the House of Bishops and by the Doctrine Commission. The middle way os posited upon the idea of eucharistic presidency. The Church of England does not talk about a sacramental priesthood, though individual members are free to take that position. Neither does it allow for lay presidency. Rather, it says that the celebration of the Eucharist is a corporate act of the Church, not an individualistic act by the minister… Read more »
But it could be argued that Canon C1 was written by bishops, so of course they would want to present an argument which reserved maximum authority and power for themselves. Whether that Canon is historically correct is a very good question. There was a very good discussion on TA only a month ago about this. The meaning of the construct “priest” that people anachronistically project back into their understanding of the early church is very different to what priests actually did and how they were understood at the time. It could also be argued that these arguments of apostolic succession… Read more »
Please see my reply to Janet, below. The present Canons of the C of E were enacted in 1964 to replace the original code of 1603. Amendments and revocations of the code are made by General Synod; some changes were made in 1969 but none to Canon C 1
What evidence is there that the orders of bishops, priests, and deacons, as we now understand them, date back to apostolic times? I don’t see it in the New Testament.
And we are forgetting that widows were also enrolled as ministers. But women tend to have been written out of the records.
Janet, I will address this response to Kate and Simon Dawson as well as yourself. I merely quoted precise words from Canon C 1: here they are again, slightly expanded “The Church of England holds and teaches that from the apostles’ time there have been these orders in Christ’s Church: bishops, priests, and deacons; and no man shall be accounted or taken to be a lawful bishop, priest, or deacon in the Church of England, or suffered to execute any of the said offices, except he be called, tried, examined, and admitted thereunto … ” In fact Canon C should… Read more »
I cannot help thinking that the Theological danger here is of confusing the Priesthood of all believers with a Presbyterate of all believers, yes in the New Testament we are certainly taught that we are a Priestly people, that there is a common Priesthood of all believers but what we are not taught is that all believers are Presbyters (Ministerial Priests). We can be in danger theologically of bluring the distinctions between the Common Priesthood of all believers and the ministerial Priesthood . Those in the Anglican Church who take a very Catholic View of Orders, both Lay and Ordained… Read more »
Jonathan, with all due respect, we are not confused. Within the Church of England then a variety of views is traditionally allowed. There are certainly those in the church who take a traditional view that ordination is essential to preside at the Eucharist. But there are others who, having studied the issue carefully, take the view firstly that lay presidency is entirely justified within church history and tradition, and secondly that lay presidency would help to solve some of the problems currently facing the Church of England. There was a time in medicine and in the Armed Forces when there… Read more »
The Methodists have a different ontological view of ordained ministry. Are you suggesting we should all become Wesleyans? Kate might be happier if she joined them where lay people have a more equal role, except their future seems more dire than the CofE.
With respect, you simply cannot ignore Canon law:
“B 12 Of the ministry of the Holy Communion1. No person shall consecrate and administer the holy sacrament of the Lord’s Supper unless he shall have been ordained priest by episcopal ordination in accordance with the provisions of Canon C 1.”
Couldn’t agree more, Adrian. Sacramentalism, in the working world’s context, is known as ‘jobs for the boys’, making one specific person indispensable. There is nothing specifically in the NT which demands it – a lot depends on how much relevance and validity you accord the OT in terms of Christian practice. Those old enough to remember the demise of Meccano Ltd may have heard that one possible reason lay in their only having one particular store man who knew how the ordering and dispatch system worked. He fell seriously ill – as a result, stores full of stock and equally… Read more »
As an ADDO I’m conscious that the vocations process demands much of its participants in terms of ‘providing evidence’. In some cases, this may encourage the innate tendencies of some to overwork. Personally, a quality I’d like to add to the conversation is ‘the ability to stop and/or say no.’
Colin, please don’t think that the lack of comment about your articles does not mean that we do not read them. It is just that the content does not match an instant reaction blog like TA
Any valid response would probably need a long essay rather than a quick note. Or your thoughts need reflection and soak time, so by the time we are ready to respond a few days have passed and things have moved on.
I for one read your articles carefully and value them. I am sure I am not the only one.
Thank you.
Very much agree with this. when Colin said “I wanted to reflect on the ways in which my faith and spiritual practice have been influenced by Eastern wisdom and practice” my instant reaction was that I’d very much value that reflection. In a piece from Colin, some months ago (and possibly not here, can’t remember) he said what we needed were new forms of God, not the search for “new forms of Church” which dominates the C of E website. That rang so many bells for me. I wonder how much clergy burnout reflects not too many churches to look… Read more »
Pam, thank you for adding your thoughts. I’m not sure a blog about Eastern wisdom and practice is going to come next – but eventually there will be more. Did I really write that what we needed were “new forms of God” rather than “new forms of Church”? How outrageous – and exactly right! Well, almost – I think we need new forms of Church as well – certainly I do – or forms that are no longer available. I would find it very difficult to function as a priest in today’s Church knowing that my visions of God and… Read more »
Yes. There seem to be some contributors who comment on almost every group of articles.
Apart from having such stamina one wonders what they do with the rest of their day.
So much focus on ecclesiastical internecine strife would be bad for my mental health!
Literally the reason I gave up commenting on TA although I allow myself the occasional excursion to see what’s going on.
Simon, thank you so much for responding – I have reached a state of despair some days when I need to know someone out there values me!
And I fully understand (now) why my blogs don’t necessarily receive comments. To write a thoughtful comment requires time and process and I know how it is that time moves on and by the time I’ve thought about responding, the TA commentariat has moved on to a new thread,
Excuse the naive question here. Is there not a major conflict of interest if one’s partner is part of a sensitive, highly secret discernment process and you are a key forensic commentator on that process, especially if the interest group for whom you are primarily producing your commentary appear to be able to exploit weaknesses within that discernment process to block the appointment of candidates that don’t fit within certain controversial criteria?
I too would like to give a shout out to Colin Coward. I appreciate his articles, this one included. For one thing, there are often touch stones with other things I’m reading, e.g. his reference to Alison Webster’s notion: ” towards embodied theologies which take human experience seriously. Such embodied theologies recognise that individuals are subject to systemic forces, where power circulates to oppress some and privilege others on the basis of race, gender, sexuality, social class, and economic means…” . There is an echo there with Leonardo Boff whom I am reading for lent: “We truly need a new… Read more »
Like others, I like and value Colin’s comments. I may not always understand them which means they require more thought, which is not a bad thing, but we are at least travelling in the same direction. Eastern practice doesn’t feature in my thinking, I will confess – I can’t mix Buddhism or Hinduism with faith in a monotheistic God in all good conscience, but can happily draw on Jewish thoughts.
You may draw on Buddhism unwittingly, John, Jewish thought and the New Testament (certainly Paul) were quite influenced by Stoicism at the time, which in turn has much in common with Buddhist thought (and probably inherited a lot of it through Pyrrho and Hellenistic contact with India in the Seleucid empire). Judaism was deeply affected as well, strands of it took on board the transmigration of souls, and believe in it firmly to this day.
Again, I wish TA had a like button. I think we forget to our cost how theological/philosophical thought was a huge interlocked network from China into India, Egypt and Europe in the time of Christ. All of it following the Trade routes. And the biggest trade route of all passed through Galilee and Palestine.
If links are allowed, have a look : https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/reincarnation-the-transmigration-of-a-jewish-idea/
Hi John. Here is a link to, Respect For Everything, something relatively recent by Leonardo Boff together with a quote from the same: “Buddhism, presented as wisdom rather than as a faith, teaches respect for every being, especially those who suffer (compassion). The daily wisdom of Feng Shui integrates and respects all the elements, the winds, the water, the soil, the different species. Likewise, Hinduism preaches respect as active non-violence (ahimsa), that found its referential archetype in Mahatma Gandhi. Christianity knows the image of Saint Francis of Assisi, who respected all beings: the slug on the path, the bee lost… Read more »
It’s one thing to plunder the Egyptians but quite another to worship their gods.
Thank you, Ruairidh – I need to take Leonardo Boff off the shelf and blow off the dust . . . well, having searched, first I need to locate Cry of the Earth. It’s clearly relevant to the connections I’m making.
Righto. I like to dust off thinkers who have been around during that 40 year period theological shift referenced in your article. ( May I suggest the shift actually goes back beyond that). Interesting to see how their ideas hold up (1) in the light of current circumstances and (2) at a later stage in my own life. On the one hand ideas of critical thinkers require ‘updating’ in the light of new problems or new evidence with regard to problems. On the other hand, the really insightful ones are truly prophetic in that in retrospect they have provided a… Read more »