April Alexander ViaMedia.News Mutual Flourishing or Repeating Our Mistakes? A Response to Together in Love and Faith
Kelvin Holdsworth What’s in Kelvin’s Head The English Heresy
The first results for the religion question in the official census of population of England and Wales in 2021 were released by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) on 29 November 2022: Religion, England and Wales: Census 2021. Here are a few articles in response.
Archbishop of York ‘We are here for you’ – Archbishop responds to Census findings
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Faith in England – the 2021 census
Church Times Leader comment: Census reality
Andrew Brown Church Times Press: What the census tells us about faith
As April cites, a question was asked at General Synod in July: ““When and by what mechanism was Issues in Human Sexuality formally written into the Selection Criterion of the Church of England?” The Bishop of Chester replied to Synod question as follows: We do not have a record of the date or the mechanism by which Issues in Human Sexuality was formally written into the former Selection Criteria. Unfortunately, since the information is not readily available it could not be obtained within the time-frame available for responding to Synod questions. I continued to be perplexed as to why the questions of… Read more »
Mae Christie, who asked the question, has also put down a Private Members Motion (https://www.churchofengland.org/about/leadership-and-governance/general-synod/private-members-motions) “Vocations process and issues in human sexualityRevd Mae Christie (Southwark) to move:
‘That this Synod request that the House of Bishops remove any requirements relating to Issues in Human Sexuality from the Vocations (Shared Discernment) Process.’
110 signatures as at 17 August 2022″. This has passed the threshold at which it needs to be considered for debate by the Business Committee. No doubt the Bishops will have noticed this motion, and the support it has gained, as they are thinking about next steps.
Necessarily, there is a short time-frame for responding to Synod questions asked ahead of a group of sessions of the Synod, when (traditionally) the ‘Questions’ session is scheduled for early evening on the first day. However, the recent set of questions asked pursuant to Standing Order 117 (“Answering questions between groups of sessions“), had no prescribed time for the answers, save as provided by SO 117(2), namely that “The answer to a question of which notice has been given by a date so specified [i.e. under SO117(2)] must be given to the member no later than such date as the… Read more »
Kelvin (I hope that by saying you spent time as ‘a theological student in Fife’ meant you studied at St Andrews – where my daughter and I both studied as well)… You cite the mooted idea to set up an ‘anti-gay’ structure within the Church of England that would be somehow protected forever. On that point, it’s worth pointing out (in balance) that some conservative evangelical people (Ian Paul for example) would take exception to such a model. They would argue that the Church of England should preserve the main diocesan and parish structures as ‘orthodox’ and in alignment with… Read more »
Also overlooked by the “well my province did it simply” observations is that, unlike said provinces, the CoE is genuinely broad church. Barring a few evangelical congregations, the Piskies’ churchmanship tends towards liberal catholic. Now, I love that tradition, but it does make things easier. If the CoE were anything like as homogeneous, this would’ve been settled a long time ago.
Indeed James. And in my lifetime b 1949 the traditions have moved further apart and internally fragmented more obviously. Evangelical are much stronger ( and the older Prayer Book evangelicalism hardly visible).Anglo-Catholicism much weaker. It is a picture of fragmentation with much greater liturgical diversity. It isn’t suprising it is difficult to get significant agreement about a lot of things.
I see where you’re coming from Susannah, and I personally want the 2014 Settlement to be properly implemented. It’s not too late to redeem it and get it to work. But don’t we need to see this in the context of history? When the church progresses to adopt new moral positions, there’s usually a Phase 1 – when varying views are held within the church, and then a Phase 2 – when, after debate, developed thinking and prayer, the church as a body reaches a new and relatively settled mind on a moral issue. Slavery is an example. With equality… Read more »
Surely the census results cannot have come as a surprise. The significant retrenchment of the Christian church in England and Wales is no secret and inevitably reflects the attitudes of the populace to Christianity in the UK. Why would young people want to be associated with the lack of equality for LGBTQI clergy and people in the Roman Catholic, free evangelical churches and the CofE? Young women might look at the silly arrangements in the CofE and deduce that their full equality is a long way off there. The CofE’s elephant in the room is its snobbery. Clergy are deployed… Read more »
I fear that the rejection of Christianity by the English majority is not simply because of the CofE’s dismal attitude to equality. I’m sure most ordinary people don’t give two hoots about the Church’s attitude to gay people, because the Church hardly enters their minds.. A feeling that “God botherers” believe in the “sky pixie” and other “faery tales” is perhaps a truer perception of why people reject religion. If the CofE decided upon complete equality to LGBTQ people tomorrow, there wouldn’t be a mass conversion of England, with people hammering on Church doors to get in. The census has… Read more »
Just some statistical observations. The current figures are just the initial release. Later releases should allow for cross-classification between religion and age, and also other demographic variables. The actual classifications that will be available may depend on privacy considerations, but it will be very interesting to see breakdowns by (for example) ethnicity and country of birth, if those become possible. We already know age is a very significant variable. In previous censuses the decline in declared affiliation to Christianity and the increase in “no religion” could largely or wholly be accounted for by older cohorts “leaving the population” and being… Read more »
(continued). My previous longer post tried to stick to evidence. Now for my own opinion. Remember that the Census doesn’t break down between Christian denominations, but what the C of E does obviously has an effect on the general brand. I’m with FrDavidH on this one…although anecdotally I’ve heard several “no religion” friends saying very negative things about the C of E on the issues raised by Fr Dean. But these are from people who weren’t very sympathetic with the organisation anyway. Overall my impression is that there’s a long term (probably accelerating) generational shift towards “no religion” in most… Read more »
Thank you. Always valuable to read your observations on statistics. To me, the alienation from Christianity as a religion (not necessarily from all its values) is down to a paradigm shift. Generations were taught that biblical authority, at a considerably literal level, was the basis for how we should view morality, other faiths, science etc. In the face of the continuing ‘Enlightenment’ thinking, and its momentum as credible way of viewing reality (scientific method, expanding knowledge etc), it seems to me that the ‘scriptural authority’ paradigm has crashed headlong into the ‘Enlightenment’ understandings. For a period, there was deference to… Read more »
Around the world, the major Christian denominations (yes, even the American Southern Baptists) already accept this kind of reading of Scripture and acceptance of scientific evidence that contradicts a literal interpretation of the Bible. The days of the Scopes “monkey trial” are long past, even in rural America. The problem is, they don’t make a point of it in their public statements, so the old stance of infallibility remains the one that predominates among the general public.(Not, of course, helped by the televangelist hucksters who use “faith” as a means to wealth and political power.) I was born in 1952;… Read more »
The Southern Baptists still believe in the supremacy of male headship of the family and reject women ministers in accordance with their interpretation of Biblical commands (with the males being the interpreters), affirm biblical literacy in other areas, and still, I believe fight teaching of evolution. The days of Scopes may be long past, but efforts are still being made to kick the teaching of evolution or of a billions-years-old universe out of the publicly-funded school systems across the USA, and substitute or include alongside so-called “scientific creationism” (the Biblical Creation stories but without a divine Creator) and a 6,000… Read more »
“The Southern Baptists still believe in the supremacy of male headship of the family and reject women ministers in accordance with their interpretation of Biblical commands.”
Exactly.
They *still* regard the Bible as the authority.
That is the ‘old paradigm’ I am talking about.
They have an underlying assumption that the Bible is always right, if we only translate its statements correctly.
They elevate it to a self-verifying position… ‘the Word of God is flawless, the Word of God is perfect’.
It is not.
I fully concur with your last sentence.
The Bible (Jewish or Christian scriptures) was written by people, and therefore while it may contain God’s message, it is subject to human flaws.
It is my understanding that the efforts to fight evolutionary teaching in school are not officially supported by the Southern Baptist Church, but are generally brought up by splinter groups.
“Around the world, the major Christian denominations (yes, even the American Southern Baptists) already accept this kind of reading of Scripture.” I don’t think they do. They – and many people here – still regard the Bible as the ultimate authority, and refuse to accept that sometimes the Bible is just plain wrong. They hold on to the concept that the Bible is ‘inspired’ and therefore ‘right’. Their re-interpretations are attempts to maintain the underlying claim that the Bible isn’t wrong about things, but they still want to squeeze their re-interpretations into the ‘old paradigm’ of this perfect collections of… Read more »
But all of this is nothing more than a rehash of old problems, people’s religion today is self actualisation and anything that claims authority outside themselves is ultimately rejected. This to me proves the truth of the old stories of scripture rather than some radical requirement to redefine it. We have had over a century of that approach and it has failed. The question now is not what can we change to grow, but what is worth holding onto even if others reject it?
I don’t think large numbers of people are selfish narcissists (a rich New York City family numbering among its members a very recent ex-USA-president being the exception).
Just because people reject religious truths previous populations accepted doesn’t make them self-centered.
I don’t agree Paul. Yes, people quite rightly seek self-actualisation. God surely wants that for us all. And yes, we are all prone to selfishness. But I don’t write the secular community off. Nurses sacrifice themselves in the care of others, often expending themselves emotionally beyond any issues of payment. Mothers sacrifice themselves for their children. Youth workers work in rawness, and with rawness, to try to mentor kids. And so on. Secular community also raises up local secular people who believe in building community, and have found that self-actualisation is inseparable from community and its own realisation. Christianity –… Read more »
Couldn’t agree more about the paradigm-shift: personally, I’d place most weight on technological change; the escapism that used to be offered by religion is now offered by movies and video games, and medical technology makes the grave appear ever-dimmer.
Evangelicals have adapted somewhat to this new paradigm — “there must more to life than this” — but other traditions could do the same in distinct and profound ways.
Another feature of technology today is that old claims can be more readily and collectively called out, challenged, and shared with others. People find confidence to walk apart from the Church, when alternative communities are accessible, and advertised, and they see how the secular world offers different paradigms, and they can align with groups they see online. Technology has provided platform, even for people questioning the Church’s treatment of sex, or abuse. ‘Authority’ gathers around communities of voices – intelligent voices in various cases – and call into question the institution’s versions and claims. Top-down authority and control of narratives… Read more »
Couldn’t agree more about “liberals” who apply a strikingly conservative hermeneutic. When conservatives discover I agree with them on the meaning of the “clobber verses” (while rejecting their application) they’re shocked. Many have never encountered it before.
Excellent point about tech enabling dissent. As the printing press shows, was ever thus. We can but surf the wave as best we can.
‘But for every person attracted to ‘certainties’… having a need for certainty… the same paradigm alienates and puts off 50 others… or even more.’
Susannah, I’d be interested in seeing your empirical evidence for this opinion.
Obviously I cannot provide evidence of how the millions of people feel alienated by Christian certainties, Tim. But in broader terms, we do know (demonstrably) that a flood of people have turned their backs on the version of Christianity that gets portrayed in the media and in society. Not just on issues like sex, but on the whole package. They don’t buy in. Now, apologists for lively conservative evangelical churches sometimes counter: “Liberal churches are losing more people than conservative ones…” In some (but not all) cases perhaps… But at what cost? The way the faith gets societally presented as… Read more »
See, I’m broadly sympathetic, Susannah, but I have a sinking feeling that the evidence won’t support your assertion. And if, as you say, the reason these young people have rejected the church en masse is because of conservative attitudes on women, LGBTQ people etc. – well, why aren’t they going to the churches that have more liberal attitudes? When I look at my kids’ generation (34 – 42), their contemporaries haven’t ‘rejected’ the church; most of them were never part of it. If we ask the question “Why don’t they come to church?” we’re missing the point. Modern people don’t… Read more »
Following an “evangelical” Jesus isn’t a neutral position. It can lead to homophobia, male headship, misogyny, anti-abortionists and other divisive, conservative beliefs. It is worrying if the church is “doing a better job” of spreading this version of Jesus.
Well, FrDavid, if liberal Christians don’t like that version of Jesus, as James Byron has often said on this site, the remedy is in their hands. The only question is whether they value traditional church culture more than the call of Jesus to make new disciples.
“When I look at my kids’ generation (34 – 42), their contemporaries haven’t ‘rejected’ the church; most of them were never part of it.” If that is the case, then the problem rests not in that generation, but in the one that preceded it. What did their parents do (or not do) that prevented these young adults from participating in organized religion? And I put it in those terms because, from my experience and observation, the phenomenon is not limited to Christian churches. I have many Jewish friends and acquaintances with children of that generation and (save for celebrating Chanukah… Read more »
‘If that is the case, then the problem rests not in that generation, but in the one that preceded it.’ I think we have to go back further than that. I was born in England in 1958. The vast majority of my contemporaries in high school (who would all now be my age – 64) were not churchgoers, because they were not brought up in churchgoing families. This phenomenon (the decline of conventional churchgoing) is mentioned several times by C.S. Lewis in his letters and books in the forties and fifties. The current concentration on the issue of how many… Read more »
Indeed. Prior to the Toleration Act 1688 attempts were made to fine those who did not attend church, but that statute enabled people of other persuasions to opt out, which meant that dissenters of most kinds vanished, and a good many more with them. Parliament endeavoured to recoup the ground lost by the Church via the Occasional Conformity Act 1711, but that applied only to office-holders, and was very much a case of bolting the door long after the stable door had swung open. Then there was the famous 1851 census, the first since the Compton Census of 1676, which… Read more »
As a semi-evangelical type Christian, I remember the problems as a trainee teacher doing RE – that I could not say anything about personal faith – that was sectarian. Then Mrs Thatcher repealed whatever the regulation was, and evangelical youth organisations rapidly took advantage of that opportunity. Now the wind, and the national curriculum seem to have changed again. I’m always uneasy about right-wing politicians championing Christianity, because I’m afraid I suspect their motives. It’s probably been said a lot on this site at TA – conservative Christianity is very much about control, dominated from the top down and obeying… Read more »
“In the face of the continuing ‘Enlightenment’ thinking, and its momentum as credible way of viewing reality (scientific method, expanding knowledge etc), it seems to me that the ‘scriptural authority’ paradigm has crashed headlong into the ‘Enlightenment’ understandings.” Spot on. I would also add that maybe two or three or four centuries of European religious wars left people with the feeling of “to Hell with all of the lot!” and they chucked the baby, the cradle, the baptism font and the minister. Even in the USA, long a bulwark of people professing a belief in a faith (although as one… Read more »
Peter: “People might be rejecting religion getting further and further from its spiritual roots.” This is a truly important point. I think we are sometimes in danger of viewing non-Christian paths towards spirituality as ‘wrong’… just ‘wrong’. But actually, though millions have turned their back on Christianity, many people would still define as ‘spiritual’ or seeking meaning. In many places, Christianity was parachuted in and superimposed on societies and cultures which already had spirituality, evolved over centuries, often in relationship with the natural world. Those spiritualities either got suppressed or re-packaged (sometimes crushed). This points to the possibility that people… Read more »
You may have heard of an unknown author who published a minor successful novel called The DaVanci Code. At least Dan Brown was relatively unknown until that book sold ginormous numbers. I was entranced by it. The writing isn’t that good, the chapters are choppy, and the author twisted history. He also borrowed heavily from an allegedly nonfiction book called Holy Blood, Holy Grail. But the author explores the subject of the sacred divine and other spiritual areas in which one of his main characters argues Western Christianity suppressed and drove out of European mainstream Christianity and substituted instead the… Read more »
Bernard & Fr David, apologies if I gave the impression that matters of inequality are the main reason for Christianity’s decline in England and Wales. I was trying to suggest that a young person considering church membership might be put off by the Church’s mealy mouthed hand wringing. You’re absolutely right that most people never give religion a thought and couldn’t care less. The situation does make me sad though. The things that have nurtured me spiritually: dignified liturgy, traditional hymns and the sacraments are no longer in vogue; so I often think that my attendance is more about duty… Read more »
I couldn’t agree more. At a in time when more people question the certainties of religion, the CofE promotes a trite answer to life’s problems – the Alpha course? – and forms of service more likely to alienate the cynical English producing ribald mockery. The greater popularity of Cathedrals suggests inspiring worship is more likely to evoke a response to the numinous as the music, liturgy and architecture points beyond ourselves. The CofE’s evangelical leadership believes 10,000 house Churches, where hosts invite their neighbours in to discuss what a great bloke Jesus is, will give people a vision of glory.… Read more »
Likewise the myth that sexuality would change peoples approach was tried and has failed over firstly divorce, then women in ministry and will fail even if we fully embraced same sex marriage. People reject who God is, the rest doesn’t even get a look in.
I don’t think that can be true. If you look at the RC context, being hard line when it comes to issues of sexual morality has clearly been directly responsible for a large part of the falling away of practising church members. Humanae Vitae caused a mass exodus throughout the late 60s/1970s; the failure to allow communion for remarried divorcees and, more recently, the ongoing tough anti-gay stance, has resulted in many more people walking away. This is all now seen particularly in the context of the organisation having been hypocritical all the way through, in allowing people committing serious… Read more »
Regarding Humanae Vitae, it should be noted that Pope John’s commission voted 64-4 in favour of reform, and its rejection included the reasoning that change may set a precedent that challenged the magisterium’s authority (well yes, just so).
Conservative churches can often be popular. But as you so rightly say, it isn’t automatic, and teaching is just one factor.
Yes, I agree with you here. The other thing to add is that the vertiginous decline in the number of Christians is not unique to Britain, but is happening in every European country. Record numbers of people have demanded to “debaptised” in both Germany and Belgium in the last year, for example; the French RC Church has been lurching from one scandal to another (that concerning the former Cardinal Archbishop of Bordeaux being just the latest); Irish Roman Catholicism appears to be fast collapsing as well…. and so one could go on, around the continent. I think there are two… Read more »
A very interesting thread. If my own personal ‘anecdote’ is now on a scale that amounts to ‘evidence’, I would suggest that the numbers of core believing Christians, at least those who can be bothered to attend church (a large number of whom will be attending out of habit, for ‘cultural’ reasons and/or who may have only the vaguest understanding of Christian doctrine), are now only a trace element of the population and that the run-off is far more advanced than those in authority are prepared to admit. However, it cannot be denied that Christmas, as a cultural (if not… Read more »
Frederic Martel’s book about homosexuality and the Vatican blew the lid off the RC’s hypocrisy around sexuality. He interviewed members of a cohort of male sex workers at Rome’s Termini station whose clients are almost exclusively priests at the Vatican. The book is rather repetitive but worth skimming through.
Martel has a fascinating take on the vocations crisis, the huge reduction in vocations to monastic and priestly life being one aspect of the overall decline in the church. He argues that for decades, if not centuries, many young homosexual men in towns and village all over Europe would go to the church as the only visible and viable way of escaping from a future married life, rather than because of any real spiritual vocation. The change in attitude towards male homosexuality has made homosexual life outside the church much more viable, thus greatly reducing the numbers of those wanting… Read more »
Thank you Mark, I agree that the use and abuse of church power is an often neglected aspect of the discussion around Church decline. Christianity claims to be a religion of peace, humility and harmony, yet from Constantine to colonialism the state and church worked together to forcibly supress pagan/indigenous religion and promote Christianity and Christian derived social mores. And for as long as the church could preach a doctrine of heaven and hell which was believed by the masses, the church could amass great wealth and power through it’s claims to be able to keep people out of one… Read more »
Thanks Mark. You are right that this is part of a much bigger story of decline and change across Europe. We are at the end of a particular era of history and this is neglected in these debates. Nor is this just a church problem. Within the UK there has been a discernment parallel decline for some time in membership levels across the range of traditional organisations including trades unions, political parties, social clubs and uniformed organisations. Even pubs are closing are quite a rate. Whole patterns of belonging are changing in our societies and it not clear what will… Read more »
Fr. Kevin Holdsworth’s argument – re the inconsistency of a divided theology of S/S Marriage within the Church of England – is similar to its inconsistency about Women’s Ordination. If these matters are so important as to merit the oversight of two different categories of bishops; then why has this not happened in the far more ecclesiologically important matter of recognising the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? There is, after all, a wide range of understandings about the acceptance of the ‘trans’ or con-substantiation – (this latter being the catholic idea of coterminous presence of the crucified and… Read more »
As a practical matter, transubstantiation hasn’t caused schism since both parties can maintain table fellowship while believing what they believe.
I’d love the same to be true for equal marriage, but as many conservatives view it as a “salvation issue”, it appears some kinda parting of the ways is unavoidable.
And therein, James lies the real; problem. if the Church of England can live with differing theologies about the presence of Christ in the Eucharist – without the threat of ‘alternative oversight’; why can it not live with differing theologies on Same-Sex relations and Marriage. Perhaps Head Office needs to make a clearer statement on its accommodation of both – without alternative oversight? After all, did not Saint Paul say that: “In Christ, there is neither male nor female, all are baptised by the One Spirit into Christ”? After all, marriage is not, as the Scriptures clearly indicate; a salvation… Read more »
I suspect what sets sexuality apart from purely theological differences is what has been termed (at least in the US) as the “ick factor.” For many in the anti-same sex marriage side of the argument, the problem is not so much reconciling scripture with modern attitudes, but a revulsion toward the bedroom activities of same-sex couples (at least on the male side of things).
Ronnie, I have a comment on Kelvin Holdsworth’s site on this matter. So I shan’t reprise it here. In light of your comment here, perhaps you may find it of interest. Leap frogging from that I tend to agree with you that issues of conscience and conformity are many. Beyond that, I think we need to recognize that the institutional church has been in decline for decades. We know it has been in decline in Canada since the 1960s. One of the larger consequences of the same is that what were previously big Christian tents are collapsing into polarized remnant… Read more »
Rod; what I appreciated most about your comment, placed on Fr. Kelvin’s blog, was this paragraph of yours on the problem of building into the operation of the Church such a device as a ‘conscience clause’, which can allow objectors to justify at least virtual schismatic separation in the Body of Christ: “Clauses that only protect the conscience of objectors usually make things worse, not better, for minorities and vulnerable groups. Such mechanisms also have a kind of ‘letting off the hook’ effect. Conscience clauses can arrest a person’s willingness and ability to test their conscience against the wisdom of… Read more »
I agree that so called ‘flying bishops’ are problematic for unity. So called ‘conscience clauses’ ought to be called what they really are i.e. ‘privilege clauses’– intended to protect male privilege in the case of ordination of women or heteronormative privilege in the case of same sex marriage.
Perhaps the reason fewer and fewer people identify as Christians is because the Church prefers not to christen them. Many churches make it clear that babies are not welcome to be christened unless their parents make promises. Rejected at birth because of who their parents are, how should they identify as Christians? In Roman Catholic countries the baptismal liturgy was changed to include parental promises, never before required. In England alternative baptism liturgies with parental promises were introduced although the Prayer book service, without parental promises remains available. In theory. Not often in practice. The people have not rejected the… Read more »
This reflects changes in liturgy that effectively make Eucharist “easy” (read, “normative and frequent”) and Baptism “hard” (read, “more stringent requirements and a less frequent schedule”) I see it as stemming in part from a romantic “recovery” of an earlier age of the church, without recognition of all that has come in between, and the current cultural contexts. I would not place all of the blame for decline on these factors, but I don’t think they help with either outreach or growth; and in the US have led to pressure for “communion of those not baptized” — which does seem… Read more »
Interesting comment. When I was a young divinity student and then newly minted priest in the seventies, the writings of John Westerhoff were en vogue, (Will Our Children Have Faith?). I think it is important to distinguish between the theological rationale for a pastoral policy and its actually effectiveness. Baptism discipline policy in recent decades has been based upon an updating of catechesis. However catechesis assumes evangelization in some form or other has already taken place. Current trends( catastrophic membership decline) contests such an assumption. You note the importance of looking at intervening historical and social developments. In the nineteen… Read more »
Excellent questions, Rod. I find it very interesting that in the New Testament, people ask ‘what must I do to be saved?’ and the apostles respond, ‘Repent and be baptized.’ So baptism isn’t the end that people have in mind; it’s part of the path by which they reach the true end, salvation in all its fulness. But today the question tends to be ‘What must I do to be baptized?’ So baptism has been made an end unto itself, rather than a part of the road of discipleship.
Thanks, Rod. This is exactly the shift to a didactic model (though, of course, the “reformed” approach of our Cranmerian BCP was already heavily weighted in that direction) I’m referring to. The sense of baptism as a beginning (echoing Tim Chesterton’s observation) has unintentionally been diminished. The “initiation” has become the terminus. “Here is water… what is to prevent my being baptized?” — the instruction that could fit in a carriage ride has been replaced with weeks-long literal in-doctrin-ation. In my Bronx parish I attempted to recover the earlier model of a brief talk with the parents prior to the… Read more »
Context, both cultural and historical, is a consideration for sure. We can romanticize the NT church as easily as we can the ancient undivided Catholic church. Here in Atlantic Canada we have ( perhaps ‘had’ is the better tense at this point) parishes with hundreds of families who were on the parish roll nominally. For example, I served one parish in the nineties that had about seven hundred and fifty families on our rolls. Less than a third of those families had one or more persons attend Sunday service or participate in Sunday school on any kind of a regular… Read more »
‘A variation on a theme from my Catholic friends is, “You have to take classes now to get your baby baptized”.’
On the other hand, I recall the comment made by a young mom some twenty years ago when I told her we had a short course in Christian Basics we wanted her and her husband to go through before their baby’s baptism. She said, “Wow – the Church is taking my baby’s baptism seriously!”
Right on Tim, sometimes the process of intentional baptismal preparation yields those kinds of meaningful pastoral encounters. Notwithstanding, looking back it seems to me that the program we engaged in here to varying degrees has proven demographically ineffective. The other thing I will put in the mix is a recognition of a bias of my own. For better or worse, I’ve always been driven to understand, to comprehend, the content of faith. It engendered in me a bias that favoured the didactic model. However, that is not the way in for a great many people, as I am sure you… Read more »
“Many churches make it clear that babies are not welcome to be christened unless their parents make promises.” Sadly, this Pandora’s Box was opened by the ASB1980. Common Worship recovers the Prayer Book tradition in which parents answer on behalf of the baby, not on behalf of the baby and themselves.
In Catholic liturgy the parents and godparents take vows, renounce Satan and evil and profess their faith and the faith they want the baby to be brought up in. The baptism ceremony thus gives parents and godparents the opportunity to make a promise before God to bring the baby up within the faith of Christianity. The parents are asked: “You have asked to have your child baptised. In doing so you are accepting the responsibility of training him/her in the practice of the faith. It will be your duty to bring him/her up to keep God’s commandments as Christ taught… Read more »
The issue is that it makes admission to baptism of an individual contingent upon the actions of a third party – and in this context even parents are a third party.
Well, yes. But it’s the parents who request the baptism of infants/children. It’s contingent on the faith of the parents. The Catholic Church views baptism as a sacrament that confers God’s saving grace. Since infants below the age of reason are incapable of belief, God confers His grace upon the child based on the faith of the parents. In Catholic theology, baptism is conferred upon infants to free them from the stain of original sin, to give them a “new birth”, to initiate them into the Church as Christians, and to give them the supernatural grace of God that will… Read more »
I think we may be at cross purposes here, and apologies if I’ve sown confusion. I can’t think anyone would want to take issue with the questions to parents that you have shown in the RC rite. Indeed, Common Worship has a similar set of questions for parents: “Will you pray for them….walk with them in the way of Christ” and “Will you….help them take their place within the life and worship of Christ’s Church?” Where the ASB 1980 departed from Anglican norms was at the Decision: “I ask these questions which you must answer for yourselves and for these… Read more »
As I responded to Kate above, Catholics believes faith is required for baptism. Since infants below the age of reason are incapable of belief, God confers His grace upon the child based on the faith of the parents. And what’s the issue with: “laying parental faith on babies and small children”? What motivates a parent to request baptism? And what does it mean to say they will “walk with their child in the way of Christ” if they themselves don’t accept Christ? Parents are the first teachers of their child in the ways of faith. It is difficult to bring a… Read more »
‘In short, we are not demanding that parents be Christians, but that they will walk with their child in the way of Christ’
I’m sorry, but that’s nonsensical to me. How can parents walk with their child in the way of Christ if they aren’t themselves followers of Christ?
You feel its nonsense, Tim; historically the Church has believed it’s not (see the Sarum rite, 1662, etc). Where is grace in making paedo-baptism (quoting Kate) “contingent on the actions of a third party”?
What is possibly the most important factor involved in the Sacrament of Baptism, where the Holy Spirit is invited to bond the baptised into the Body of Christ is, wherever possible, that this should take place – not at an individually provided liturgy, with no one present but family and friends – but in the context of the Parish Eucharist. Here, the liturgy takes place ‘within the Body of the Faithful’ – all of whom are witnesses to – and encouragers of – the parents and god-parents to raise the baptised in the nurture and faith of The Church. There’s… Read more »
Quite, Fr Ron. And not difficult to do now that very few parishes are overwhelmed by baptisms.
Whole heartedly agree Father Ron. The last three decades of parish ministry all the baptisms I presided at (with the exception of a genuine clinical emergency) were done within the context of the regular Sunday liturgy much as you describe. In fact, celebrating baptism in that context on specially designated Sunday festivals throughout the year became the official diocesan norm here. It was a wonderful experience. The rite puts the question to the whole gathered community, “Will you who witness these vows do all in your power to support these persons in their life in Christ?” Having the whole gathered… Read more »