Tim Wyatt’s article makes for interesting and disturbing reading. I was aware of much of the subject matter already, so the shock value isn’t there for me. But there was one thing that surprised me, but that probably shouldn’t have done, given the amount of cynicism/realism that grounds my view of the institutional C of E. It was that the current Bishop of London was given no credit or benefit of the doubt at all in the eyes of the London clerics quoted. Yet Bishop Chartres, whose seeming organisational ineptitude, and desire to create a Mini Cut-Price Vatican with the… Read more »
I think the article mentions why Bishop Sarah is getting all the criticism – she is a woman and she was a nurse. To cite various comments about her in the article: “‘She has no pastoral ability or discernment.’ As a ‘boring woman into process’ (as one of the 42 priests put it), the comedown from the dramatic and mercurial Chartres has been severe and, in at least one case, fatal. Mullally’s remaining defenders claim something else is at play. London is a hotbed of traditionalist priests who cannot reconcile themselves to women’s ordination. When her name comes up many… Read more »
Amen Simon. As Struggling Anglican has rightly written about Bishop Chartres below, no doubt she has strengths and weaknesses – as I wrote, some of the weaknesses, in my view, came to the fore in her part in the handling of the allegations against Fr Griffin, and the culture she has created among the hierarchy of the Diocese. But it was her strengths that led to the curtailment of Sargeant’s corrupt rule. That, in my view, cannot be ignored (or should not) simply because of her gender, and then it still be claimed that mutual flourishing is working well for… Read more »
I suspect you do not know Richard Chartres as a human being and those of us who do may find your caricature of him problematic and ill informed.
Like all of us he was and is not without lacunae but he also has wisdom that is in short supply on the current bench.
Perhaps a thoughtful moderation of invective might be more appropriate for Thinking Anglicans.
….and perhaps the absence of assumption might also be appropriate (not to mention more accurate in this particular issue)! I will say no more on how I know him, if I do at all, as on this one I prefer to centre on Bishop Chartres’ alleged behaviours, and more pertinently for the point I’m making, on the contrasting attitudes of the London clergy quoted in the article. I try not to judge people, irrespective of whether I know them or indeed like them – just their behaviours. I agree with you in some ways about the Bishop’s considerable strengths. But… Read more »
We’re all a mix of good and bad, and no doubt Chartres has his good points. But he left London Diocese in an unholy mess. As Realist says, it’s ironic that Mullally is copping an equal share of the blame, when she did at least begin to try to sort it out.
She’s a woman and the clerics they interviewed come off as a cesspool of misogynistic hate. Good for her for putting an end to the corruption.
It is sadly typical of safeguarding-type operations to go overboard after a dismal era of abuse with impunity. However, taking the word of an acknowledged thief and liar to hound someone to death is a new low. The archdeacon does not come off well, both for tolerating the corruption and for giving credence to Sargeant’s lies. Like wow.
Indeed. The most depressing element of the story (for me) was not so much the revelations of Sargeant’s corruption and malice (and I have heard other disheartening things about him) – as many of us will already be familiar with the dismal story – but the sort of obscene and vicious language some clergy appear to use about each other, and the signal lack of charity and grace they exhibit. If they say these things about each other – and the language used would have been thought utterly disgraceful even until relatively recently – then what must they say about… Read more »
Exactly. What kind of pastoral care could come from such hateful people? Do women and girls even have access to respectful pastoral care? Can anyone see the Risen Christ in a priest who spews such hate?
To be sure, CoE’s brutal treatment of LGBTQ+ clergy is bound to harm its culture, and hurt people hurt other people, but these words stoop too low.
Thanks for your comment Froghole. You have picked up on one aspect which riled me. It wasn’t just the dismissive language about women in general, but the dismissive language about nurses in particular. Dame Sarah wasn’t just any nurse. Her two most recent nursing roles before full time church ministry were as acting Chief Executive of Chelsea and Westminster NHS Hospital Trust, and then as Chief Nursing Officer, the UK Government’s most senior advisor on nursing and patient experience. One can see where she gained the professional experience of management and governance and control systems which flushed out Martin Sargant… Read more »
I agree completely. It was the odious mixture of obscenity and snobbery inherent in the comment made about the bishop of London. As the population ages the nursing and caring professions will become ever more important, so it is entirely about face with reality to deprecate them, and it presupposes that the clerical profession is somehow a higher calling – might not the opposite be true? The nursing/caring professions are so essential and sacrificial that it is what has made recent cases like those of Lucy Letby and Beryl Wall (Wolverhampton) so depressing. More generally, the Sargeant case has caused… Read more »
Re the corporate dimension of wrongdoing, I do wonder how much damage has been introduced by the widespread acceptance of lying- on the subject of one’s sexuality- albeit perhaps rightly blaming (parts of) the institution for encouraging it. And I say that as someone who is liberal on the same sex question, but I have witnessed a sort of sniggering superiority about the need to lie which perhaps opens the door to lack of integrity more widely. And then not surprising that you’ve got HTB type Christians looking aghast at excessively camp and dishonest Christians in the same diocese.
If you go to the south of France, you can see how Christian tradition has dealt with Mary Magdalene. With highest respect. The chemin des rois leading up to her grotto was walked by Popes and Kings of France. For a time, the third most visited pilgrimage site after Santiago and Rome.
Thanks for your comment about how some traditions do treat Saint Mary Magdalen with due respect. But it does illustrate one point, relevant to this discussion, related to the titles and honorifics used for women.
As I understand it, Saint Mary Magdalen is a saint of the church, of equal status with the other male leaders such as Saint Peter, or Saint Paul, yet how rarely do we give her the full title due to her, and how often do we miss out the “Saint” when mentioning her, unlike for the men.
‘Saints’ in the NT are all Christians, not a chosen few. “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours.” 1 Cor 1 vs 2.
The modern calendar of the Church of England, the one found in the Common Worship books, does not prefix any name with “Saint”, presumably so as to make no statement on the meaning or use of the word both generally and in the context of specific individuals, especially those who lived since the Reformation.
So not only does it not say “Saint Mary Magdalene”, but neither does it say “Saint Peter” or “Saint Paul”.
The word is, I think, only used for a few collective feasts: All Saints, Saints and Martyrs of England, Saints and Martyrs of the Reformation Era.
Thanks for your comments Simon and Bob. You are entirely correct that different parts of the church have different understandings and usages with reference to saints. My own comments were more from a Roman Catholic perspective. To quote one RC blog “Mary Magdalene was conflated in western tradition with the unnamed ‘sinful woman’ who anoints Christ’s feet earlier in Saint Luke’s Gospel (see Luke 7: 36-50). This gives rise to the widespread but inaccurate belief that she was a repentant prostitute or a promiscuous woman. The traditional western, sensual portrayal or caricature of Mary Magdalene probably reached its low point… Read more »
Ironically, the idea that Mary Magdalene was a notorious sinner was precisely what made her so popular! The Saint of Penitential New Life. If God could turn a life from sin to the prominence found in John’s Gospel, e.g., then he could do that for me and with my sins, too. So, too, Peter, Paul, Aaron, David, and the list goes on and on. It must be our modern moralism that has turned that idea on its head. I came to eat with tax collectors and sinners, He proclaimed. There is more rejoicing in heaven, and so forth and so… Read more »
I’m not sure what you are saying. The high regard for Mary Magdalene in France has nothing to do with quibbles over titles! The Basilica at Vezelay is one of the major starting routes to Santiago, where St Bernard of Clairvaux held forth, and the Path of the Kings in Sainte-Baume speaks for itself, as does the her Basilica in Saint-Maximin-la-Sainte-Baume. I think you are inventing a distinction otherwise unknown.
Thank you Simon (and for your life and service). Nursing involves detailed knowledge, skills, experience. It is also a discipline that rightly adheres to process and good practice, in the interests of safety and recovery. It is compassionate in its practicality (faeces, vomit, blood, as well as machinery and devices) and in its emotional care. It is sad if anyone demeans or undervalues a nurse for being a nurse. After my gender surgery I was nursed for 10 weeks by a community of nursing sisters, and am forever grateful to them. 2 weeks after leaving them I commenced my own… Read more »
In the Common Worship Calendar I am bemused to see that the perhaps murderous Bishop Cyril of Alexandria and the certainly murderous John Calvin are put on the same level as Florence Nightingale, not only a famous nurse but a pioneer statistician, an outstanding administrator far less controversial than Cyril, and a theologian whom I think can speak to us today far more than either Cyril or John Calvin. (I’d recommend Dossey’s large illustrated biography.of Nightingale) Others have noted above the administrative and other fine qualifications of the present-day Bishop of London.
Murderous Cyril of Alexandria? The reformation era was terribly bloody on all sides. Jean Calvin looks like “Mr Rogers” compared to the slaughtering in Britain and in France.
The extraordinary Basilica at Vezelay (UNESCO site) is also dedicated to Mary Magdalene. Main pilgrimage site en route to Santiago. The Vezelay Route. They have just recently completed the renovations.
It strikes me that the Archdeacon has serious questions to answer, though I doubt he ever will. If only he had had the wit to put down his pen and ask Sargeant why he was spewing forth his bile this whole sorry saga could have been avoided. But instead, he chose to write it all down and produce the fateful dossier. At one point, the Archdeacon was thought to be a likely candidate for the episcopate – hopefully, this article might help ensure that he is not on any shortlist for any see about to become vacant.
José Ribeiro
7 months ago
Colin:
If CoE ambiance is now toxic for you, quit, just quit. That was my case in RC Church. And that was the case of many, many friends of mine.
The creation of insecurity in LGBQTI clergy and laity is an insidious spiritual weapon, fought with the spurious weapons of absolute certainty and the drive to create an unassailable ‘religious right’ in the UK. Colin, others can certainly identify with your sufferings: and it can make some of them mentally unwell. The decision to stay or to leave is very personal. Counting the cost is something only you and the Spirit can discern. Either way it’s extremely painful. And there may come a moment when one recognises the resonance of ‘out of Egypt have I called my son’. Ultimately that… Read more »
Fr Dean
7 months ago
Perhaps I’m missing something but how do the protagonists in Wyatt’s article reconcile their behaviour with the gospel and the ordinal? If this is an accurate portrayal of the situation then they ought to have trouble sleeping at night. Human beings have the ability to compartmentalise their conflicting beliefs, but even so. It’s a grubby business that taints the good people and the good work that must be happening without fuss or comment.
Am I alone in finding Tim Wyatt’s and, from Wednesday, Andrew Graystone’s articles utterly depressing? As we remember this week religious powers-that-be conspiring to have Jesus put to death for his challenge to their power, wealth and control of religion and society I find it sad and grim that, two millenia later, religious powers-that-be are still – but in Jesus’ name – in thrall to power, wealth and control of religion and society. It makes me sick in the pit of my stomach. Neither the corrupt feudalism of the Diocese of London past (as reported by Wyatt) nor the pushing… Read more »
I don’t disagree, but would simply point out that if you have an established church whose leaders are intimately connected to the corridors of power, this sort of thing is surely an occupational hazard.
Then isn’t the appropriate solution disestablishment? An established church will, perforce, have leaders “intimately connected to the corridors of power”.
Would that the problem here could be solved by disestablishment. Experience of disestablished churches seems to demonstrate that the problem is not establishment but entitlement. Entitlement strikes me as possibly the biggest systemic danger in a hierarchical organisation. It is deeply seductive of good people so that they become blind to it.
In my experience, Church’s hunger for power, social control and wealth, and the ridiculous imitation of monarchic courts (cardinal archbishop patriarch of Lisbon) is independent of establishment – RC Church is distablished in Portugal since 1910.
Christendom may be dead in real world, but its survives in clergy’s heads.
Not only the leaders, Tim, but those in safeguarding in their Diocese especially the Diocesan Safeguarding Advisers. The case of Father Alan Griffin has a particular resonance with me. Since March 2020 I have been supporting a friend, Kenneth (pseudonym), in an allegation by a chorister of sexual touching although the choristers are closely chaperoned at all times. My friend vehemently denies the allegation and was not even in the country when it was supposed to have happened. There has been no investigation or scrutiny of evidence. Material evidence which might have exonerated Kenneth has been suppressed by the Diocesan… Read more »
This is why there is only one solution to all the Safeguarding and related controversies: these matters must be resolved externally by wholly independent impartial persons, no longer reporting to either Dioceses or Church House. Independence and no conflicts of interests: no ifs no buts, no tinkering with the clarity of vision by the Jay Team.
I think the corridors of power are largely indifferent to the CofE. They can see that it’s haemorrhaging membership and that it is preoccupied with sex. The current government is caught up in a doom loop and facing an existential crisis. If Labour does win at the GE they will have plenty to keep them occupied. I think most politicians see the CofE as no more than part of the pageantry of Westminster. Rishi Sunak is a well brought up man and I’m sure he’s very affable with the Christian clerics he encounters but as a Hindu I doubt he… Read more »
I think that underplays the situation somewhat. Any member of the House of Lords has a certain social status and that includes the Lords Spiritual. That’s especially true of the two Archbishops and, to a lesser extent the Bishop of London, who also have political status as putative leaders of that block of votes, and their influence on the cross benches more generally.
I think the bishops role in the House of Lords is largely performative. Their speeches are mostly scripted for them and their noble Lordships have from time to time lost patience with the Lords Spiritual. I seem to remember a slew of resignations from the ecclesiastical committee not too long ago. I’m sure that everyone is perfectly charming but I don’t think that is to be confused with respect. The church dithers over safeguarding, survivors and lgbtqi+ people. It has declined precipitously since Covid and the bishops have been impotent in that regard. It has special protections for those that… Read more »
At Jesus’ trial no one accused him of the things you refer to. He would not be crucified by the Roman State for that! They wouldn’t be bothered. Jesus willfully went to his death, and the charge was King of the Jews. Son of God. The one coming on the clouds in a judgment scene in which he was The Judge of All the World. And God raised Him from the dead this Easter Day. Alleluia, He is Risen Indeed!
John Davies
7 months ago
As a general rule I’ve learned to accept people as they are, trusting the relationships until or unless their behaviour suggests otherwise, and not let third party opinions decide how I regard them. Tim Wyatt’s piece is disturbing for that reason alone; I will almost certainly never meet any of the people he mentions, but would not wish my attitudes towards them to be prejudiced by what is so very negative a piece of writing. Indeed, it leaves me wondering what else may lie behind some of the comments. What’s particularly sad is that these two articles should appear between… Read more »
That’s an interesting response. Jesus was crucified partly because he faced people with truths they didn’t want to acknowledge.
It seems to me that Holy Week is an appropriate time to look at the darkness in our religious institutions, and be mindful of those institutions’ victims – our victims. Will we treat our prophets – those with uncomfortable messages – the way Jesus and all the prophets have often been treated? Or will we see the wrongs we have colluded with, and turn to the risen Jesus for strength and insight to do things differently in future?
Dear Janet, if I may. I do not understand how a man who has come on a singular mission, the confrontation with Death and Satan, and a commitment to go to the Cross to defeat them, in obedience to his Father, out of love for the lost world, and which is the most steady, resolute drumbeat of his short time here, is to have his life on that singular, resolute, determined, committed path–every healing, every teaching, every step he made–turned into a ‘for instance’ of anything other than that. Mark’s Gospel has no ‘earthly Jesus’ invested in anything except everything… Read more »
I said Jesus was crucified partly because he faced people with uncomfortable truths. Of course there were other reasons they wanted to crucify him – he challenged power, he challenged ideas of what and who is holy, of how to please God, of who is in and who is out…the religious and civil administrations of the day found him dangerous to have around. His own reasons for submitting to crucifixion, when he could have called legions of angels to save him, were as you describe. And thank God for that! Jesus came to defeat Death and Satan – so should… Read more »
The bulk of Jesus’ earthly ministry was in Galilee. Healing, driving out demons, teaching, pointing to the heart of the Law and its purpose. In John’s Gospel it is the raising of Lazarus from the dead that lights a fuse with the religious authorities. “The whole world is going out to him.” He tells his disciples he will go to Jerusalem, be killed and on the third day rise — that this is his willed mission. He was not crucified by the Roman empire for facing people with uncomfortable truths, and the leadership that called for his death did so… Read more »
Remember the gospels were put in their current, final form when Christianity had become the official religion of the Empire. It would have been unwise (not to say unhealthy) for the Christian authorities to have put the blame for Jesus’ death on the heads of the Imperial government (hence Pilate washing his hands of Jesus’ blood). Far easier to put it all on the Jewish government (such as it was), and make their judgment one of blasphemy and heresy. (Of course, the priests and sanhedrin were virtually puppets of the Roman governor, so it may amount to the same thing… Read more »
I don’t understand what you are claiming. No one sat down and “put a Gospel in form.” The Gospels are complex amalgams of oral tradition, early worship, memory, scriptural accordance. Going back to the events themselves. Do any basic reading. NT Wright, R. Bauckham, M Bockmuel. The idea that oral tradition is just manipulated to calm down the Romans in charge is groundless speculation. And, frankly, beside the point. The Romans will have no trouble martyring early Christians. They would not do so because they read the passion narratives and said, “we don’t like the way we were depicted.” Don’t… Read more »
The synoptic gospels have Jesus driving the moneychangers out of the Temple between the triumphal entry and Jesus’ crucifixion; Matthew and Luke follow the cleansing of the Temple with the religious leaders plotting against Jesus. I’d say that ‘You have made the house of God a den of thieves’ is facing people with an uncomfortable truth. So was Jesus’ challenging of Simon the Pharisee for his lack of hospitality; his preference of conspicuous ‘sinners’ over conspicuously religious people; and multiple other occasions when his words and behaviour revealed peoples’ inner motives. No one is talking of a 1-to-1 analogy, but… Read more »
I’d say it was far more than that! He was claiming to be the LORD God himself. Not an “uncomfortable truth.” He is the Truth itself. I struggle with the idea of shoddy this or that in the present CofE being brought into the frame of Jesus, who also predicted the absolute destruction of the Temple itself. In all three synoptics and by implication in John. Or of us being like unto Him in our (hopefully accurate) denunciations and “uncomfortable” truth-telling. It just seems inflated on one side, and deflated on His side. There may be people claiming to be… Read more »
Christopher I am not entirely sure how you understand the mission of God in Christ but surely you must acknowledge that an ushering in of the Kingdom of God is more than a small part of that mission? I don’t read in the gospels this ‘singular mission’ that you have described twice now on this thread. The work of a prophet is surely facing people with truths that they do not wish to face. If not that, then what would say is the work of a prophet?
I think the Cross is fundamentally this: to demonstrate the total givenness of God to the point of no turning back… and to exhort us to daily open to that givenness of Love ourselves, take up the Cross, and follow. Everything boils down to that Love. It is who God is, and Jesus who reveals it and lives it out.
Morning, Janet. I think I’ve mentioned before now that I’m depressive (and also slightly autistic) by nature, with a bad tendency to see the worst, gloomiest and negative side of humanity – not exactly helped by an evangelicalism which majors on our (my) sinfulness. Thats why I need to keep constantly walking very closely with Jesus, and looking at him rather than the problems – they don’t help me. As a Christian, life is a massive tightrope walk; ‘in the world’, very much so, ‘but not of it’ – and ‘heavenly minded’ – ie focused on God’s values, but not… Read more »
Goodness, Eschaton, you are right – just checked. If you go here and click on the link for the Griffin Review, it comes up as you say. https://www.london.anglican.org/articles/fr-alan-griffin-diocese-of-london-publishes-independent-report-and-response/ This surely must be an oversight which one trusts the diocesan safeguarding team will correct as soon as it is brought to their attention. It is a review well worth reading, not least in terms of our LLF discussions. As Mr Robson rightly says in his Review (which hopefully will be back up on the diocesan website shortly): “This illustrates a divisive issue that has been at the centre of this review… Read more »
When comment is framed around media posts (valuable as these have often been) they may often focus on issues of controversy. As ‘Thinking’ Anglicans it might be valuable to provide open-ended monthly topics such as: Prayer Ways your Local Church is helping people Handling Loss and Bereavement Trust and Doubt Pastoral Care of the Elderly and the Sick The Impact of Jesus on Our Lives Precious Moments of Faith and Encouragement Growing Community Favourite Music Christianity and Beauty Love and The Cross And let participants ‘create’ thoughtful content. Obviously each person may have other topics that might be helpful or… Read more »
May I recommend https://forums.shipoffools.com/ for this type of discursive content? Broader than Anglicanism, lightly but decisively hosted, constructive and (generally) eirenic in culture.
I understand that, as the website states, “Thinking Anglicans will actively report news, events and documents that affect church people.” Thinking Anglicans reports, but does not make the news. The weekend around Easter is what I would call “slow news” days. Maybe TA should put — for a few days — a purple veil over all articles that are not uplifting, inspiring or constructive. Alternatively, everyone is free to take a few days off from TA.
Rod Gillis
7 months ago
The corrective comments on this thread pertaining to women and to nursing have a life giving theme appropriate to this week. I recall attending the graduation of my sister from nursing school back in the seventies–a school operated in conjunction with the Sisters of St. Martha (see link). She went on to have a career in intensive care nursing and Emergency Dept. management. She has just published a book titled, Dying to be Seen: The Race to Save Medicare in Canada. May be of interest to those concerned about the NHS. You can input the title in your search engine.… Read more »
Judith Maltby
7 months ago
The Robson LLR on Father Griffin is back up on the Diocese of London website. They responded very promptly when it was pointed out that the link was broken. It is very much worth reading.
Tim Wyatt’s article makes for interesting and disturbing reading. I was aware of much of the subject matter already, so the shock value isn’t there for me. But there was one thing that surprised me, but that probably shouldn’t have done, given the amount of cynicism/realism that grounds my view of the institutional C of E. It was that the current Bishop of London was given no credit or benefit of the doubt at all in the eyes of the London clerics quoted. Yet Bishop Chartres, whose seeming organisational ineptitude, and desire to create a Mini Cut-Price Vatican with the… Read more »
I think the article mentions why Bishop Sarah is getting all the criticism – she is a woman and she was a nurse. To cite various comments about her in the article: “‘She has no pastoral ability or discernment.’ As a ‘boring woman into process’ (as one of the 42 priests put it), the comedown from the dramatic and mercurial Chartres has been severe and, in at least one case, fatal. Mullally’s remaining defenders claim something else is at play. London is a hotbed of traditionalist priests who cannot reconcile themselves to women’s ordination. When her name comes up many… Read more »
Amen Simon. As Struggling Anglican has rightly written about Bishop Chartres below, no doubt she has strengths and weaknesses – as I wrote, some of the weaknesses, in my view, came to the fore in her part in the handling of the allegations against Fr Griffin, and the culture she has created among the hierarchy of the Diocese. But it was her strengths that led to the curtailment of Sargeant’s corrupt rule. That, in my view, cannot be ignored (or should not) simply because of her gender, and then it still be claimed that mutual flourishing is working well for… Read more »
I suspect you do not know Richard Chartres as a human being and those of us who do may find your caricature of him problematic and ill informed.
Like all of us he was and is not without lacunae but he also has wisdom that is in short supply on the current bench.
Perhaps a thoughtful moderation of invective might be more appropriate for Thinking Anglicans.
….and perhaps the absence of assumption might also be appropriate (not to mention more accurate in this particular issue)! I will say no more on how I know him, if I do at all, as on this one I prefer to centre on Bishop Chartres’ alleged behaviours, and more pertinently for the point I’m making, on the contrasting attitudes of the London clergy quoted in the article. I try not to judge people, irrespective of whether I know them or indeed like them – just their behaviours. I agree with you in some ways about the Bishop’s considerable strengths. But… Read more »
His management of London Diocese does not seem to have been very wise – to put it mildly.
I did not allege perfection but perhaps credit where credit is due.
Bitterness can blur the truth.
We’re all a mix of good and bad, and no doubt Chartres has his good points. But he left London Diocese in an unholy mess. As Realist says, it’s ironic that Mullally is copping an equal share of the blame, when she did at least begin to try to sort it out.
London diocese has ben a poisoned chalice for a long time.
Don’t make Richard Chartres your fall guy!
She’s a woman and the clerics they interviewed come off as a cesspool of misogynistic hate. Good for her for putting an end to the corruption.
It is sadly typical of safeguarding-type operations to go overboard after a dismal era of abuse with impunity. However, taking the word of an acknowledged thief and liar to hound someone to death is a new low. The archdeacon does not come off well, both for tolerating the corruption and for giving credence to Sargeant’s lies. Like wow.
Indeed. The most depressing element of the story (for me) was not so much the revelations of Sargeant’s corruption and malice (and I have heard other disheartening things about him) – as many of us will already be familiar with the dismal story – but the sort of obscene and vicious language some clergy appear to use about each other, and the signal lack of charity and grace they exhibit. If they say these things about each other – and the language used would have been thought utterly disgraceful even until relatively recently – then what must they say about… Read more »
Exactly. What kind of pastoral care could come from such hateful people? Do women and girls even have access to respectful pastoral care? Can anyone see the Risen Christ in a priest who spews such hate?
To be sure, CoE’s brutal treatment of LGBTQ+ clergy is bound to harm its culture, and hurt people hurt other people, but these words stoop too low.
Thanks for your comment Froghole. You have picked up on one aspect which riled me. It wasn’t just the dismissive language about women in general, but the dismissive language about nurses in particular. Dame Sarah wasn’t just any nurse. Her two most recent nursing roles before full time church ministry were as acting Chief Executive of Chelsea and Westminster NHS Hospital Trust, and then as Chief Nursing Officer, the UK Government’s most senior advisor on nursing and patient experience. One can see where she gained the professional experience of management and governance and control systems which flushed out Martin Sargant… Read more »
I agree completely. It was the odious mixture of obscenity and snobbery inherent in the comment made about the bishop of London. As the population ages the nursing and caring professions will become ever more important, so it is entirely about face with reality to deprecate them, and it presupposes that the clerical profession is somehow a higher calling – might not the opposite be true? The nursing/caring professions are so essential and sacrificial that it is what has made recent cases like those of Lucy Letby and Beryl Wall (Wolverhampton) so depressing. More generally, the Sargeant case has caused… Read more »
Re the corporate dimension of wrongdoing, I do wonder how much damage has been introduced by the widespread acceptance of lying- on the subject of one’s sexuality- albeit perhaps rightly blaming (parts of) the institution for encouraging it. And I say that as someone who is liberal on the same sex question, but I have witnessed a sort of sniggering superiority about the need to lie which perhaps opens the door to lack of integrity more widely. And then not surprising that you’ve got HTB type Christians looking aghast at excessively camp and dishonest Christians in the same diocese.
Good comment.
If you go to the south of France, you can see how Christian tradition has dealt with Mary Magdalene. With highest respect. The chemin des rois leading up to her grotto was walked by Popes and Kings of France. For a time, the third most visited pilgrimage site after Santiago and Rome.
Thanks for your comment about how some traditions do treat Saint Mary Magdalen with due respect. But it does illustrate one point, relevant to this discussion, related to the titles and honorifics used for women.
As I understand it, Saint Mary Magdalen is a saint of the church, of equal status with the other male leaders such as Saint Peter, or Saint Paul, yet how rarely do we give her the full title due to her, and how often do we miss out the “Saint” when mentioning her, unlike for the men.
‘Saints’ in the NT are all Christians, not a chosen few. “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours.” 1 Cor 1 vs 2.
The modern calendar of the Church of England, the one found in the Common Worship books, does not prefix any name with “Saint”, presumably so as to make no statement on the meaning or use of the word both generally and in the context of specific individuals, especially those who lived since the Reformation.
So not only does it not say “Saint Mary Magdalene”, but neither does it say “Saint Peter” or “Saint Paul”.
The word is, I think, only used for a few collective feasts: All Saints, Saints and Martyrs of England, Saints and Martyrs of the Reformation Era.
Thanks for your comments Simon and Bob. You are entirely correct that different parts of the church have different understandings and usages with reference to saints. My own comments were more from a Roman Catholic perspective. To quote one RC blog “Mary Magdalene was conflated in western tradition with the unnamed ‘sinful woman’ who anoints Christ’s feet earlier in Saint Luke’s Gospel (see Luke 7: 36-50). This gives rise to the widespread but inaccurate belief that she was a repentant prostitute or a promiscuous woman. The traditional western, sensual portrayal or caricature of Mary Magdalene probably reached its low point… Read more »
Ironically, the idea that Mary Magdalene was a notorious sinner was precisely what made her so popular! The Saint of Penitential New Life. If God could turn a life from sin to the prominence found in John’s Gospel, e.g., then he could do that for me and with my sins, too. So, too, Peter, Paul, Aaron, David, and the list goes on and on. It must be our modern moralism that has turned that idea on its head. I came to eat with tax collectors and sinners, He proclaimed. There is more rejoicing in heaven, and so forth and so… Read more »
I’m not sure what you are saying. The high regard for Mary Magdalene in France has nothing to do with quibbles over titles! The Basilica at Vezelay is one of the major starting routes to Santiago, where St Bernard of Clairvaux held forth, and the Path of the Kings in Sainte-Baume speaks for itself, as does the her Basilica in Saint-Maximin-la-Sainte-Baume. I think you are inventing a distinction otherwise unknown.
Thank you Simon (and for your life and service). Nursing involves detailed knowledge, skills, experience. It is also a discipline that rightly adheres to process and good practice, in the interests of safety and recovery. It is compassionate in its practicality (faeces, vomit, blood, as well as machinery and devices) and in its emotional care. It is sad if anyone demeans or undervalues a nurse for being a nurse. After my gender surgery I was nursed for 10 weeks by a community of nursing sisters, and am forever grateful to them. 2 weeks after leaving them I commenced my own… Read more »
In the Common Worship Calendar I am bemused to see that the perhaps murderous Bishop Cyril of Alexandria and the certainly murderous John Calvin are put on the same level as Florence Nightingale, not only a famous nurse but a pioneer statistician, an outstanding administrator far less controversial than Cyril, and a theologian whom I think can speak to us today far more than either Cyril or John Calvin. (I’d recommend Dossey’s large illustrated biography.of Nightingale) Others have noted above the administrative and other fine qualifications of the present-day Bishop of London.
Murderous Cyril of Alexandria? The reformation era was terribly bloody on all sides. Jean Calvin looks like “Mr Rogers” compared to the slaughtering in Britain and in France.
The extraordinary Basilica at Vezelay (UNESCO site) is also dedicated to Mary Magdalene. Main pilgrimage site en route to Santiago. The Vezelay Route. They have just recently completed the renovations.
It strikes me that the Archdeacon has serious questions to answer, though I doubt he ever will. If only he had had the wit to put down his pen and ask Sargeant why he was spewing forth his bile this whole sorry saga could have been avoided. But instead, he chose to write it all down and produce the fateful dossier. At one point, the Archdeacon was thought to be a likely candidate for the episcopate – hopefully, this article might help ensure that he is not on any shortlist for any see about to become vacant.
Colin:
If CoE ambiance is now toxic for you, quit, just quit. That was my case in RC Church. And that was the case of many, many friends of mine.
There is Grace in the margins.
The creation of insecurity in LGBQTI clergy and laity is an insidious spiritual weapon, fought with the spurious weapons of absolute certainty and the drive to create an unassailable ‘religious right’ in the UK. Colin, others can certainly identify with your sufferings: and it can make some of them mentally unwell. The decision to stay or to leave is very personal. Counting the cost is something only you and the Spirit can discern. Either way it’s extremely painful. And there may come a moment when one recognises the resonance of ‘out of Egypt have I called my son’. Ultimately that… Read more »
Perhaps I’m missing something but how do the protagonists in Wyatt’s article reconcile their behaviour with the gospel and the ordinal? If this is an accurate portrayal of the situation then they ought to have trouble sleeping at night. Human beings have the ability to compartmentalise their conflicting beliefs, but even so. It’s a grubby business that taints the good people and the good work that must be happening without fuss or comment.
Amen to that, Father
Am I alone in finding Tim Wyatt’s and, from Wednesday, Andrew Graystone’s articles utterly depressing? As we remember this week religious powers-that-be conspiring to have Jesus put to death for his challenge to their power, wealth and control of religion and society I find it sad and grim that, two millenia later, religious powers-that-be are still – but in Jesus’ name – in thrall to power, wealth and control of religion and society. It makes me sick in the pit of my stomach. Neither the corrupt feudalism of the Diocese of London past (as reported by Wyatt) nor the pushing… Read more »
I don’t disagree, but would simply point out that if you have an established church whose leaders are intimately connected to the corridors of power, this sort of thing is surely an occupational hazard.
Then isn’t the appropriate solution disestablishment? An established church will, perforce, have leaders “intimately connected to the corridors of power”.
Would that the problem here could be solved by disestablishment. Experience of disestablished churches seems to demonstrate that the problem is not establishment but entitlement. Entitlement strikes me as possibly the biggest systemic danger in a hierarchical organisation. It is deeply seductive of good people so that they become blind to it.
In my experience, Church’s hunger for power, social control and wealth, and the ridiculous imitation of monarchic courts (cardinal archbishop patriarch of Lisbon) is independent of establishment – RC Church is distablished in Portugal since 1910.
Christendom may be dead in real world, but its survives in clergy’s heads.
Not only the leaders, Tim, but those in safeguarding in their Diocese especially the Diocesan Safeguarding Advisers. The case of Father Alan Griffin has a particular resonance with me. Since March 2020 I have been supporting a friend, Kenneth (pseudonym), in an allegation by a chorister of sexual touching although the choristers are closely chaperoned at all times. My friend vehemently denies the allegation and was not even in the country when it was supposed to have happened. There has been no investigation or scrutiny of evidence. Material evidence which might have exonerated Kenneth has been suppressed by the Diocesan… Read more »
This is why there is only one solution to all the Safeguarding and related controversies: these matters must be resolved externally by wholly independent impartial persons, no longer reporting to either Dioceses or Church House. Independence and no conflicts of interests: no ifs no buts, no tinkering with the clarity of vision by the Jay Team.
I think the corridors of power are largely indifferent to the CofE. They can see that it’s haemorrhaging membership and that it is preoccupied with sex. The current government is caught up in a doom loop and facing an existential crisis. If Labour does win at the GE they will have plenty to keep them occupied. I think most politicians see the CofE as no more than part of the pageantry of Westminster. Rishi Sunak is a well brought up man and I’m sure he’s very affable with the Christian clerics he encounters but as a Hindu I doubt he… Read more »
I think that underplays the situation somewhat. Any member of the House of Lords has a certain social status and that includes the Lords Spiritual. That’s especially true of the two Archbishops and, to a lesser extent the Bishop of London, who also have political status as putative leaders of that block of votes, and their influence on the cross benches more generally.
I think the bishops role in the House of Lords is largely performative. Their speeches are mostly scripted for them and their noble Lordships have from time to time lost patience with the Lords Spiritual. I seem to remember a slew of resignations from the ecclesiastical committee not too long ago. I’m sure that everyone is perfectly charming but I don’t think that is to be confused with respect. The church dithers over safeguarding, survivors and lgbtqi+ people. It has declined precipitously since Covid and the bishops have been impotent in that regard. It has special protections for those that… Read more »
At Jesus’ trial no one accused him of the things you refer to. He would not be crucified by the Roman State for that! They wouldn’t be bothered. Jesus willfully went to his death, and the charge was King of the Jews. Son of God. The one coming on the clouds in a judgment scene in which he was The Judge of All the World. And God raised Him from the dead this Easter Day. Alleluia, He is Risen Indeed!
As a general rule I’ve learned to accept people as they are, trusting the relationships until or unless their behaviour suggests otherwise, and not let third party opinions decide how I regard them. Tim Wyatt’s piece is disturbing for that reason alone; I will almost certainly never meet any of the people he mentions, but would not wish my attitudes towards them to be prejudiced by what is so very negative a piece of writing. Indeed, it leaves me wondering what else may lie behind some of the comments. What’s particularly sad is that these two articles should appear between… Read more »
That’s an interesting response. Jesus was crucified partly because he faced people with truths they didn’t want to acknowledge.
It seems to me that Holy Week is an appropriate time to look at the darkness in our religious institutions, and be mindful of those institutions’ victims – our victims. Will we treat our prophets – those with uncomfortable messages – the way Jesus and all the prophets have often been treated? Or will we see the wrongs we have colluded with, and turn to the risen Jesus for strength and insight to do things differently in future?
Dear Janet, if I may. I do not understand how a man who has come on a singular mission, the confrontation with Death and Satan, and a commitment to go to the Cross to defeat them, in obedience to his Father, out of love for the lost world, and which is the most steady, resolute drumbeat of his short time here, is to have his life on that singular, resolute, determined, committed path–every healing, every teaching, every step he made–turned into a ‘for instance’ of anything other than that. Mark’s Gospel has no ‘earthly Jesus’ invested in anything except everything… Read more »
I said Jesus was crucified partly because he faced people with uncomfortable truths. Of course there were other reasons they wanted to crucify him – he challenged power, he challenged ideas of what and who is holy, of how to please God, of who is in and who is out…the religious and civil administrations of the day found him dangerous to have around. His own reasons for submitting to crucifixion, when he could have called legions of angels to save him, were as you describe. And thank God for that! Jesus came to defeat Death and Satan – so should… Read more »
The bulk of Jesus’ earthly ministry was in Galilee. Healing, driving out demons, teaching, pointing to the heart of the Law and its purpose. In John’s Gospel it is the raising of Lazarus from the dead that lights a fuse with the religious authorities. “The whole world is going out to him.” He tells his disciples he will go to Jerusalem, be killed and on the third day rise — that this is his willed mission. He was not crucified by the Roman empire for facing people with uncomfortable truths, and the leadership that called for his death did so… Read more »
Remember the gospels were put in their current, final form when Christianity had become the official religion of the Empire. It would have been unwise (not to say unhealthy) for the Christian authorities to have put the blame for Jesus’ death on the heads of the Imperial government (hence Pilate washing his hands of Jesus’ blood). Far easier to put it all on the Jewish government (such as it was), and make their judgment one of blasphemy and heresy. (Of course, the priests and sanhedrin were virtually puppets of the Roman governor, so it may amount to the same thing… Read more »
I don’t understand what you are claiming. No one sat down and “put a Gospel in form.” The Gospels are complex amalgams of oral tradition, early worship, memory, scriptural accordance. Going back to the events themselves. Do any basic reading. NT Wright, R. Bauckham, M Bockmuel. The idea that oral tradition is just manipulated to calm down the Romans in charge is groundless speculation. And, frankly, beside the point. The Romans will have no trouble martyring early Christians. They would not do so because they read the passion narratives and said, “we don’t like the way we were depicted.” Don’t… Read more »
“Remember the gospels were put in their current, final form when Christianity had become the official religion of the Empire”
Surely not – Christianity became the official religion (sort of) in the 4th century.
The synoptic gospels have Jesus driving the moneychangers out of the Temple between the triumphal entry and Jesus’ crucifixion; Matthew and Luke follow the cleansing of the Temple with the religious leaders plotting against Jesus. I’d say that ‘You have made the house of God a den of thieves’ is facing people with an uncomfortable truth. So was Jesus’ challenging of Simon the Pharisee for his lack of hospitality; his preference of conspicuous ‘sinners’ over conspicuously religious people; and multiple other occasions when his words and behaviour revealed peoples’ inner motives. No one is talking of a 1-to-1 analogy, but… Read more »
I’d say it was far more than that! He was claiming to be the LORD God himself. Not an “uncomfortable truth.” He is the Truth itself. I struggle with the idea of shoddy this or that in the present CofE being brought into the frame of Jesus, who also predicted the absolute destruction of the Temple itself. In all three synoptics and by implication in John. Or of us being like unto Him in our (hopefully accurate) denunciations and “uncomfortable” truth-telling. It just seems inflated on one side, and deflated on His side. There may be people claiming to be… Read more »
Christopher I am not entirely sure how you understand the mission of God in Christ but surely you must acknowledge that an ushering in of the Kingdom of God is more than a small part of that mission? I don’t read in the gospels this ‘singular mission’ that you have described twice now on this thread. The work of a prophet is surely facing people with truths that they do not wish to face. If not that, then what would say is the work of a prophet?
I think the Cross is fundamentally this: to demonstrate the total givenness of God to the point of no turning back… and to exhort us to daily open to that givenness of Love ourselves, take up the Cross, and follow. Everything boils down to that Love. It is who God is, and Jesus who reveals it and lives it out.
Morning, Janet. I think I’ve mentioned before now that I’m depressive (and also slightly autistic) by nature, with a bad tendency to see the worst, gloomiest and negative side of humanity – not exactly helped by an evangelicalism which majors on our (my) sinfulness. Thats why I need to keep constantly walking very closely with Jesus, and looking at him rather than the problems – they don’t help me. As a Christian, life is a massive tightrope walk; ‘in the world’, very much so, ‘but not of it’ – and ‘heavenly minded’ – ie focused on God’s values, but not… Read more »
Strange that the London Diocese website link to the independent review report by Chris Robson into Alan Griffin’s death now shows ‘Page not found’. https://www.london.anglican.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/AG-report-Final-Report.pdf
Goodness, Eschaton, you are right – just checked. If you go here and click on the link for the Griffin Review, it comes up as you say. https://www.london.anglican.org/articles/fr-alan-griffin-diocese-of-london-publishes-independent-report-and-response/ This surely must be an oversight which one trusts the diocesan safeguarding team will correct as soon as it is brought to their attention. It is a review well worth reading, not least in terms of our LLF discussions. As Mr Robson rightly says in his Review (which hopefully will be back up on the diocesan website shortly): “This illustrates a divisive issue that has been at the centre of this review… Read more »
What a depressing pair of posts. Is this the best that TA can manage for Holy Saturday? Nothing in the least uplifting, inspiring or constructive.
This looks like the time to unsubscribe. This stuff is bad for the soul.
I agree Nigel. The whole thing is most unsavoury. I stopped reading halfway through.
Amen to that.
It would be lovely if TA would publish only warm cuddly stories about the Church of England. Reality is far too discombobulating.
Cuddling ist verboten!
When comment is framed around media posts (valuable as these have often been) they may often focus on issues of controversy. As ‘Thinking’ Anglicans it might be valuable to provide open-ended monthly topics such as: Prayer Ways your Local Church is helping people Handling Loss and Bereavement Trust and Doubt Pastoral Care of the Elderly and the Sick The Impact of Jesus on Our Lives Precious Moments of Faith and Encouragement Growing Community Favourite Music Christianity and Beauty Love and The Cross And let participants ‘create’ thoughtful content. Obviously each person may have other topics that might be helpful or… Read more »
May I recommend https://forums.shipoffools.com/ for this type of discursive content? Broader than Anglicanism, lightly but decisively hosted, constructive and (generally) eirenic in culture.
As a denizen of the ship I would certainly second this recommendation.
Thank you both.
I understand that, as the website states, “Thinking Anglicans will actively report news, events and documents that affect church people.” Thinking Anglicans reports, but does not make the news. The weekend around Easter is what I would call “slow news” days. Maybe TA should put — for a few days — a purple veil over all articles that are not uplifting, inspiring or constructive. Alternatively, everyone is free to take a few days off from TA.
The corrective comments on this thread pertaining to women and to nursing have a life giving theme appropriate to this week. I recall attending the graduation of my sister from nursing school back in the seventies–a school operated in conjunction with the Sisters of St. Martha (see link). She went on to have a career in intensive care nursing and Emergency Dept. management. She has just published a book titled, Dying to be Seen: The Race to Save Medicare in Canada. May be of interest to those concerned about the NHS. You can input the title in your search engine.… Read more »
The Robson LLR on Father Griffin is back up on the Diocese of London website. They responded very promptly when it was pointed out that the link was broken. It is very much worth reading.
https://www.london.anglican.org/articles/fr-alan-griffin-diocese-of-london-publishes-independent-report-and-response/
https://www.london.anglican.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/AG-report-Final-Report.pdf
Judith, thank you for providing these links, very much appreciated.