Helen King sharedconversations Farewell August: time for the Church of England to wake up?
Martyn Percy Surviving Church Alpha-Mater
Colin Coward Unadulterated Love Doing some theology – a sermon about the boy Jesus in the temple
Sam Rylands The Gregory Centre for Church Multiplication Is church tradition an obstacle to growing young disciples?
What a joy to see Martyn Percy back in print, with a characteristically critical and reflective piece encompassing both the limitations of formulaic approaches to mission and the present state of the Church of England! His insistence that we are always in a condition of becoming Christian, of learning spirituality, of developing understanding is one the Church – and each of us – needs to hear.
I’d hoped we had heard the last of him
Why?
We need people like Martyn – people who challenge a complacent system and make us think may not be comfortable to live with, but they’re essential if anything is to make progress and grow.
PS – Growth can be, and is painful. Ask any pubescent teenager. But the alternative to growth isn’t comfortably staying the same – its death.
‘.. a Lego version of what Michaelangelo’s Statue of David…’.
They would have to invent a new Lego piece especially for that!
The most important thing about Alpha is that it avoids using the words ‘Church’ ‘of’ ‘England ‘ a brand that is fast reaching its sell by date.
I found it an interesting and well-argued article. However, I’m aware that much of it chimed with my experiences of Alpha over the years in a variety of arenas, so my opinion is probably biased because of that.
Michael- I’d hoped we had heard the last of him- why? The juxtaposion of the Percy and Rylands items is to say the least interesting. How ‘successful’ are programmatic approaches; what are the criteria for assessment? Did Martyn wince at the Ministry Training or Pioneer Ministry courses when he was Principal at Cuddesdon? Re Fr Dean’s, Helen’s and David’s contributions: some organisations and/or management ‘gurus’ have explored the notion of an ‘upturned triangle’ as organogram, with ‘the management’ supporting the folk doing the work! Like ‘bottom-up’, fine sounding words. As in today’s lectionary reading from James- be doers of the… Read more »
Didn’t Martyn Percy leave the Church of England? At best he’s a Thinking non-Anglican.
The Feud podcast goes into great depth about the entire saga: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-feud/id1648685726
While Martyn Percy may not have acted as poorly as the Oxford dons, he still doesn’t emerge from the affair looking good.
The Church of England is not the only member church of the Anglican Communion in the world, or even the only one in the British Isles. Church in Wales, Scottish Episcopal Church, Church of Ireland…
M OS. Might I suggest, whatever your personal views, that is an unworthy comment to post?
What a desperately depressing thing to hear.
Martyn Percy’s loss to the Church of England is an utter indictment to many loyal and educated priests. The lack of theological heft amongst our bishops is terrifying.
We become mature in Christ, more Christ-like as we know Christ more. We become a Christian as we are born again through the Spirit when we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour.
‘we are born again through the Spirit when we accept Christ as our Lord and Saviour.’ That is the way some people ‘become Christians’, but it isn’t the route for everyone. Many people grow into faith slowly, especially those who come from a Christian family. Becoming a Christian is a continual process: “I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved’, as one theologian put it.
Which theologian?
I think it was a Dean of Dublin when asked whether he was saved by an earnest evangelical
Yes. Can’t remember his name, but he was making point about the Greek tenses in New Testament. And note that in Phil. 2:12 Paul tells members of the church there to ‘work out your own salvation with fear and trembling…’. Salvation is ongoing. I’ve been reflecting why we use the phrase ‘born again’ of every Christian, when Jesus only used the term once, to Nicodemus. Nicodemus was wedded to his position and status, and Jesus was effectively saying, ‘You’ve got to lose all that and start again.’ Jesus took a different approach with everyone he met – he didn’t have… Read more »
https://www.simplybible.com/f066-sure-saved-in-three-tenses.htm#:~:text=The%20Scriptures%20speak%20of%20being,be%20saved%22%20(future).
This is a good summary of the three tenses of salvation. Hope the link works.
The three tenses. Another way I’ve heard it put is that the believer has been saved from the penalty of sin, they are being saved from the power of sin and they will be saved from the very presence of sin. 8
That’s concise, but too limiting, I think. We are also saved from the power of our enemies (who can take our bodies but not harm our spirits), and saved also from the power of death.
It really serves nobody well if we resort to partisan rhetoric.
The Anglican Communion is a wide umbrella and a little sensitivity to those of a different Anglican point of view might be more helpful.
If others banged on about seven sacraments and the Sacrifice of the Mass you might get your hackles raised.
I am not resorting to “partisan rhetoric” as you put it. You might disagree with the statement but I find your language disturbing.
It is simply the language of the conservative evangelical.
The Church of England is not 100% conservative evangelical.
For that I am deeply grateful and you should not assume that the jargon of your persuasion is that of the rest of the Church of England.
My language, as you put it, is very measured.
Not just ‘conservative’ evangelicals.
That is worrying!
Bob, I think the difficulty is that you appeared to be correcting Fr John’s statement, while describing the Christian experience of some as if it were the experience and understanding of all Christians. Which is possibly not how you meant it at all, but I can see how some might find it irritating. I was brought up in a conservative evangelical household, but can’t honestly say that my own experience can be described as being ‘born again’, at the ripe old age of 7. I could, though, talk in terms of ‘following Jesus’, ‘Christ being formed within me,’ ‘maturing in… Read more »
So good to hear from Martyn Percy again. It would be great if he and Emma were able to visit Australia again.
Amen
Helen’s article reminded me of two church wardens I knew who were summoned to meet with the archdeacon to plan for the appointment of a new incumbent. They explained that they both worked full time and so it would have to be in the evening. The archdeacon explained that he had a rule that there were no evening meetings in August, nor was he prepared to meet on a Saturday as it was his day off. He said that the matter couldn’t wait until September; the wardens refused to use precious annual leave for a daytime meeting. Stalemate.
Classic, Fr Dean. Alongside the sacred status of August, in your example yet again working laity are not considered ‘normal’. I note that in my own diocese the inaugural training session for diocesan synod members is happening on a Thursday at 4 pm… and in a very large diocese (Oxford) at that. Really not helpful for working people or for those needing to collect children from school.
What Dean and Helen are describing arises from a fairly fundamental problem in the C of E at the moment, where ‘the Centre’ (be that Diocese or Church House) regards the parishes (and their clergy) as being there to do their bidding. What needs to happen (but is increasingly unlikely) is a complete change in that relationship, so that the Centre is there to serve and enable the parishes (and their clergy). The model that is increasingly being displayed is that there is a Head Office (Archbishops, Archbishops’ Council and Church House), Regional Offices (the dioceses) and then at the… Read more »
And I’m sure the Venerable Archdeacon went on his way bemoaning the poor quality of the Church Wardens he was being forced to deal with- they might even have been about to be offered the whiff of an incumbent for their wretched parish for heavens sake! Talk about not recognising the deference due to a man of high degree !
Absolutely. But this is all part of the CofE / state ‘deference culture’. I suppose its inevitable, given a pyramidal authority model, that that happens, but its in contradiction to the ideals of equality which Christ’s teachings enshrined – and which are gathering speed in the wider society from which the church draws its members. I once studied basic economics, which presented the capitalist monetary system as an inverted pyramid, and thus inherently unstable. Its never struck me as a particularly sound, or sensible system – and to build the church on the same model, as we’ve seen recently, is… Read more »
I can recall a man I knew, married with three school age children, who was a member of the House of Laity of General Synod. He had to use recreational leave to attend Synod. He was of course recompensed for train fares.
I don’t know how common flexitime is these days. Somebody working flexitime could, I think, accommodate a single meeting such as that referred to by Fr Dean without loss of leave entitlement.
They were working class people Clifford, they would have been laughed out of the manager’s office.
Flexitime was not restricted to the ‘working class’.
My opinion is that the archdeacon should be more flexible. The archdeacon is being paid; the church wardens are not.
absolutely; the arrogance of some archdeacons (usually late ordinands from finance or education) cannot understand the commitment of loyalty who are unpaid, or parish experience of which many Ads are woefully ignorant!
The archdeacon described here displayed the most appalling clerical arrogance, almost a Bourbon dynasty mindset. What makes it even harder to understand is that regular parish clergy are expected to “live above the shop”, work a six day week including evenings and weekends as a matter of course. When the disconnect between the centre and local church life is so huge, what chance is there of reviving morale?
That’s what happens in a middle class managerial church. No notion of reality at all.
I’m all in favour of the middle classes, the CofE turned me into the best approximation of one of them. What this situation required was flexibility on the part of the archdeacon. Most of his church wardens would be in charge of their own diaries; when faced with two who were not he should have agreed to an evening meeting and then treated himself to a long lie in the next morning.
I’ll be very careful with how I phrase this. The Alpha course’s contents are very good – basic, straight off-the-shelf evangelistic Christianity, which can be used as an introduction to faith by any Christian denomination. A lot does depend on how far you feel able, or willing to adapt the material to fit your own background, particularly if you want to give participants a grounding in the traditions of your own particular denomination . As Martyn and others have said, it is a package, presented in a particular way and in that respect may need some thought if it doesn’t quite fit your individual… Read more »
Having a pop at Alpha is easy. Setting out the alternative/superior way to engage with enquirers and nurture and disciple new believers is trickier. I’m looking forward to part 2 of Martyn Percy’s article, when all will be revealed, hopefully in time for the Confirmation course I’m running next month.
I’ve used Alpha in the past, but many years ago I came up with my own inquirers’ course which I’ve continued to develop ever since. Like all inquirers’ courses, Alpha has its shortcomings. However, I don’t recognise my experience of it in Martyn Percy’s comments. Still, as Stephen Cottrell says somewhere, the most successful inquirers’ courses are often developed locally, to fit the particular situation of the local congregation. They don’t need adapting, because they’ve grown naturally out of local soil. So, if you don’t like Alpha, that’s fine – feel free to produce your own alternative. What do you… Read more »
I don’t have an issue with things shutting down for August – after all, everyone thinks of August as ‘holiday season’. What baffles me is the fact that people seem to be on holiday much of the rest of the year as well – trying to arrange anything at any time of year inevitably brings the response from someone “I’m on annual leave that week”.
And I’m mystified by how many people seem to think that everything should stop for half term. Has the whole church become a big primary school?
In principle, I don’t have a problem with things going quiet over August. When I was in Canada, nothing was ever planned for July AND August, as so many people would be away over those two months. And it was very nice that life could be lived at a slower pace over that period. Even if you hadn’t gone away, you could relax more and recharge batteries in preparation for the busyness to come. But that is very different from an archdeacon making a hard and fast rule that there could be NO meetings at all during that down time.… Read more »
It doesn’t surprise me that, in a biggish, group, there might always be one or two on annual leave. There are plenty of reasons to have a break at other times of year – cheaper fares and hotel charges, family occasions such as weddings, skiing, decorating the house, Christmas shopping, simple wanting to recharge the batteries. I can’t recall ever taking a break in August myself. No reason to, if you’re not a teacher and haven’t got kids in school.
And, of course, many people are restricted by the holiday rota at work.