Colin Coward’s musings are, well… Colin Coward’s musings. If you like what he says you’ll agree. If you’re not sure you do you’ll ask – where/what are the sources, methods and norms providing a foundation for these claims? And how do they compare/relate to the sources methods and norms of classical Christianity? The words of Giles Fraser don’t come ex cathedra, do they?
Susannah
13 hours ago
I’ll pick up on just one of Steve Reeves important points: “5. Radical Governance Reform The hierarchical structure of the Church, which has allowed abuses of power to go unchecked, must be revisited. Power must be decentralised, and lay members, independent safeguarding experts, and survivors must have a voice in governance and decision-making.” Why did the Archbishops’ Council think it should act autocratically, without referring to General Synod (gathering a matter of days later) or the survivors involved, when it just shut down the ISB ‘because it could’, and caused grave harm and distress to survivors/victims left in limbo, exposing them… Read more »
But is it hierarchical? Not in the same sense my company is. In a business hierarchy it’s obvious who is responsible for what decisions, and when it isn’t obvious that’s usually a short term before/during a restructure. Consider, Who is responsible for the ISB? Who is responsible for safeguarding not being independent if we take the archbishops at their word and they wanted it to be independent? Is it really purely William Nye? What about Ian Paul and other council members, or what about the people who voted for the council (and hence who Ian and others hope will vote… Read more »
FearandTremolo
13 hours ago
Okay, so, I’m writing here as a member of Gen Z. Colin notes that attendance is declining amongst youngsters like me, and that “Institutional misogyny, patriarchy and sexism, products of headship theology, homophobia and transphobia, racism, the abuse of victims and survivors, the failures of safeguarding, terminal decline of numbers, clinical depression among clergy and top-down bureaucracy are dominant characteristics of today’s Church”, and suggests that the cure is emphasising the love of God. And frankly, in the period of late, neo-liberal capitalism where Marx is slowly being proved right about alienation, that Church could do with leading with the… Read more »
Yes! The toxicity doesn’t help, and the Church could be everything the majority of TA commentators want it to be, and it would still keep going down and down and down. This probably now applies to almost all churches, whether ‘mainline’ or ‘fringe’ and whether ‘orthodox’ or ‘heterodox’. The Gospels are simply insufficiently compelling and/or interesting to an ever-growing proportion of the population, most especially the younger cohorts, even in the final redoubt of ‘Western’ Christianity, where the transformation is proving to be almost as rapid and complete as it was in Ireland in the 1990s or Poland in the… Read more »
“The Gospels are simply insufficiently compelling” — here I believe we disagree. They are endlessly compelling but have not been presented in a way that makes that come alive in peoples’ heart and minds. The generation of great Anglican preachers like John Donne and the poets of a figural frame of mind, have disappeared from the CofE for many generations. Into that void stepped people like CS Lewis and I will not presume to point out limitations, but he had no real grasp of the power of scripture IMHO, and so concocted a mythological framework that made its themes come… Read more »
Many thanks! Oh, I very much agree that they are compelling, and I am very much compelled by them. However, it seems plain to me that – when when and where the Good News is imparted in a highly effective manner – it simply sweeps over a large majority of the public, who remain impassive and indifferent to its value. More fool them, perhaps, but I simply feel that much of the population has either ceased to have much sense of the numinous, or gets its dose of the numinous from computer games, social media, the cinema or sports. Modern… Read more »
“The generation of great Anglican preachers like John Donne and the poets of a figural frame of mind, have disappeared from the CofE for many generations” And of course, though not CoE, John Bunyan: The love of Christ, poor I! may touch upon; But ’tis unsearchable. O! there is none Its large dimensions can comprehend Should they dilate thereon world without end. When we had sinned, in his zeal he sware, That he upon his back our sins would bear. And since unto sin is entailed death, He vowed for our sins he’d lose his breath. He did not only… Read more »
Agreed… Although in think I’m more of a fan of CSLewis. I think the problem is enjavent had anyone like him… Maybe he was less good than previous before…
To me it’s simple,
Jesus is relevant to people’s lives. As a consequence the gospel message is compelling.
But we shy away from communicating that message.
Thankfully people like FearandTremolo have invited some friends to church so they may hear about it (at least a bit).
I’m not sure we can say how compelling the Gospels are or are not to Gen Z, because frankly I’d be surprised if a plurality of us even knew there were four of them. And as cliche as it is, I’m sure that the miserable lonely office workers would love to hear John 3.
Maybe the Spectator will find a more compelling headline than ‘Son of God born in a stable’. They could perhaps run with ‘Joseph was not a complementarian shock’, which could spark a liberal revival especially among young men, in awe of how Joseph managed to avoid responsibility.
You are right. Ignorance of us is clearly a bigger issue, but when people do find out about us we should want what they find to be welcoming and safe.
My view is that we should really get real and realise that in many communities that we would be better focussing on families (+ children) and those coming to church later in life. I don’t think we can fight against the utter destruction of community amongst GenZ that liberal capitalism has wrought.
Some things on Colin’s list may be there because Colin (justifiably) doesn’t like them, rather than because they are presently causing people not to attend church. Some evangelicals also have lists of things of things they don’t like about the church (too much liberalism, too much socialism, etc) and claim the decline of the church is due to them. Zeroth century inn-keeping didn’t have a place for the church, and that’s part of the story. The founder of Christianity has observed that some places at some times will not be receptive to the gospel, and that the best thing then… Read more »
Colin Coward’s musings are, well… Colin Coward’s musings. If you like what he says you’ll agree. If you’re not sure you do you’ll ask – where/what are the sources, methods and norms providing a foundation for these claims? And how do they compare/relate to the sources methods and norms of classical Christianity? The words of Giles Fraser don’t come ex cathedra, do they?
I’ll pick up on just one of Steve Reeves important points: “5. Radical Governance Reform The hierarchical structure of the Church, which has allowed abuses of power to go unchecked, must be revisited. Power must be decentralised, and lay members, independent safeguarding experts, and survivors must have a voice in governance and decision-making.” Why did the Archbishops’ Council think it should act autocratically, without referring to General Synod (gathering a matter of days later) or the survivors involved, when it just shut down the ISB ‘because it could’, and caused grave harm and distress to survivors/victims left in limbo, exposing them… Read more »
But is it hierarchical? Not in the same sense my company is. In a business hierarchy it’s obvious who is responsible for what decisions, and when it isn’t obvious that’s usually a short term before/during a restructure. Consider, Who is responsible for the ISB? Who is responsible for safeguarding not being independent if we take the archbishops at their word and they wanted it to be independent? Is it really purely William Nye? What about Ian Paul and other council members, or what about the people who voted for the council (and hence who Ian and others hope will vote… Read more »
Okay, so, I’m writing here as a member of Gen Z. Colin notes that attendance is declining amongst youngsters like me, and that “Institutional misogyny, patriarchy and sexism, products of headship theology, homophobia and transphobia, racism, the abuse of victims and survivors, the failures of safeguarding, terminal decline of numbers, clinical depression among clergy and top-down bureaucracy are dominant characteristics of today’s Church”, and suggests that the cure is emphasising the love of God. And frankly, in the period of late, neo-liberal capitalism where Marx is slowly being proved right about alienation, that Church could do with leading with the… Read more »
Yes! The toxicity doesn’t help, and the Church could be everything the majority of TA commentators want it to be, and it would still keep going down and down and down. This probably now applies to almost all churches, whether ‘mainline’ or ‘fringe’ and whether ‘orthodox’ or ‘heterodox’. The Gospels are simply insufficiently compelling and/or interesting to an ever-growing proportion of the population, most especially the younger cohorts, even in the final redoubt of ‘Western’ Christianity, where the transformation is proving to be almost as rapid and complete as it was in Ireland in the 1990s or Poland in the… Read more »
“The Gospels are simply insufficiently compelling” — here I believe we disagree. They are endlessly compelling but have not been presented in a way that makes that come alive in peoples’ heart and minds. The generation of great Anglican preachers like John Donne and the poets of a figural frame of mind, have disappeared from the CofE for many generations. Into that void stepped people like CS Lewis and I will not presume to point out limitations, but he had no real grasp of the power of scripture IMHO, and so concocted a mythological framework that made its themes come… Read more »
Many thanks! Oh, I very much agree that they are compelling, and I am very much compelled by them. However, it seems plain to me that – when when and where the Good News is imparted in a highly effective manner – it simply sweeps over a large majority of the public, who remain impassive and indifferent to its value. More fool them, perhaps, but I simply feel that much of the population has either ceased to have much sense of the numinous, or gets its dose of the numinous from computer games, social media, the cinema or sports. Modern… Read more »
“The generation of great Anglican preachers like John Donne and the poets of a figural frame of mind, have disappeared from the CofE for many generations” And of course, though not CoE, John Bunyan: The love of Christ, poor I! may touch upon; But ’tis unsearchable. O! there is none Its large dimensions can comprehend Should they dilate thereon world without end. When we had sinned, in his zeal he sware, That he upon his back our sins would bear. And since unto sin is entailed death, He vowed for our sins he’d lose his breath. He did not only… Read more »
Agreed… Although in think I’m more of a fan of CSLewis. I think the problem is enjavent had anyone like him… Maybe he was less good than previous before…
To me it’s simple,
Jesus is relevant to people’s lives. As a consequence the gospel message is compelling.
But we shy away from communicating that message.
Thankfully people like FearandTremolo have invited some friends to church so they may hear about it (at least a bit).
I’m not sure we can say how compelling the Gospels are or are not to Gen Z, because frankly I’d be surprised if a plurality of us even knew there were four of them. And as cliche as it is, I’m sure that the miserable lonely office workers would love to hear John 3.
Maybe the Spectator will find a more compelling headline than ‘Son of God born in a stable’. They could perhaps run with ‘Joseph was not a complementarian shock’, which could spark a liberal revival especially among young men, in awe of how Joseph managed to avoid responsibility.
Bravo. In my feeble way I have tried to make something of the same point. The projections of Boomers on other generations are often just that.
I mean this is an echo-chamber like any other.
But it’s also why I’ve put myself forward for ordination.
Either way, God wouldn’t abandon His Church or the people He loves, even if sometimes we do.
You are right. Ignorance of us is clearly a bigger issue, but when people do find out about us we should want what they find to be welcoming and safe.
My view is that we should really get real and realise that in many communities that we would be better focussing on families (+ children) and those coming to church later in life. I don’t think we can fight against the utter destruction of community amongst GenZ that liberal capitalism has wrought.
Just want to say I largely agree. Thank you for sharing.
Some things on Colin’s list may be there because Colin (justifiably) doesn’t like them, rather than because they are presently causing people not to attend church. Some evangelicals also have lists of things of things they don’t like about the church (too much liberalism, too much socialism, etc) and claim the decline of the church is due to them. Zeroth century inn-keeping didn’t have a place for the church, and that’s part of the story. The founder of Christianity has observed that some places at some times will not be receptive to the gospel, and that the best thing then… Read more »