That is why the conservative Paul Williams will get the job. That will be a disaster for the liberal wing and the LFF outcome. If that happens the liberals would be better off breaking communion with a Canterbury and forming their own parallel province in England, similar to what the Alliance is proposing for conservatives now. Thoughts?
Breaking communion is all too hastily done these days, and I suspect will be repented of ‘at leisure’. But what I meant by my original comment was, if the primary purpose of selecting the leader of the national church is incomprehensible to the majority of the nation, then we have a primary problem.
I was born in England and my father was a CofE minister, so I think you can assume I know what ‘Established’ means. But I think when a church is only attended by 1.5% of the population, its claim to be the national church rings very hollow, Established or not.
I’m sorry if I came across as condescending — that was not my intention. I don’t deny that there is a problem with church attendance, and I don’t claim to have the answer, but so long as the CofE remains a) ‘Established’ and b) in legal opposition to the will of the nation as expressed in the Equality Act 2010 and the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013, then the problem will surely remain. It’s tedious to keep repeating it I know, and I also know that there are many other reasons people have for avoiding church, of any denomination.… Read more »
I see what you mean – but – – what do the majority of the nation think “primary purpose of selecting the leader of the national church is …”? I think most outside the church would assume it has something to do with having the right “belief” and in being good at “doing it” [which they may think means doing a service or similar] I think the idea that how the leader chooses to interpret theology on a point that is currently contentious to the church and how they will communicate it – should be crucial for the new… Read more »
How long before a member of the Royal Family wants a same sex marriage? It’s statistically inevitable. And how will they – and their subjects – react when told they can’t even have a stand-alone service of blessing in “their” church? In practice the couple would probably marry in Scotland but it would cause a real stink.
Whatever the traditionalists hope, equality in the established church is politically unstoppable. (The Alliance might have figured that out which would explain why they are so desperate for a “settlement”.)
It is difficult to say what will happen in the future around same sex relationships, but it is possible to point out that the church was happy to offer a service of blessing to Prince Charles and Camilla, despite their decades of acknowledged adultery, and the then archbishop of York publicly condoned sex outside marriage when commenting on the marriage of William and Kate. So if some very commendable pastoral flexibility around sex outside marriage is available to the king and his heir, it would be nice to think that such pastoral flexibility would be equally available to others, whether… Read more »
There are many good arguments for why the church should bless and/or marry same-sex couples. Saying it will make us more connected to the Royal family does not sound like a good argument to me. Being connected to the Royal family is not automatically “good” – and I doubt it is seen as that by the majority of the population. Also about 3.1% of the population are “gay/Lesbian/bisexual” – so 3/100 – – I don’t think it’s inevitable that we will get through 100 Royal Weddings and thus a statistical inevitability that we will see a royal same-sex-couple. Census data… Read more »
TimP “Being connected to the Royal family is not automatically “good” – and I doubt it is seen as that by the majority of the population.” Personally, I agree with you, but it seems that being connected to the Royal family is very important for the senior hierarchy of the Church of England. Some time ago I expressed surprise on TA that a diocesan bishop thought it more important to attend on the then Prince Charles at a Garter ceremony than to be present at General Synod, after an unfortunate clash of diaries. There were quite a few commenters on… Read more »
What you think they are desperate? They have been remarkably consistent and are already working within existing C of E structures as a defacto 3rd province.
I have problems with the international role of the ++. If the Anglican Communion needs an international figurehead (which I don’t think it does), should not the primates elect one of their number for the role?
++ Canterbury has enough to do in England.
I don’t like the idea that a woman ++ is ruled out because those in other parts of the Anglican Communion would object.
Given the choice is presumably from amongst them – they are likely to know of each other more than others… In the theoretical world – – I would be in favour of something like weighted-votes where it’s weighted by the membership size that each primate represents. But opening it up to the Bishops underneath feels like a lot of extra hassle to organise for not much difference in outcome (or a worse outcome as they would likely know a lot less of the other candidates apart from their own Archbishop). Opening it up even further – feels like a risk… Read more »
But if you have a weighted vote, is it only done on the view of the primate, or the view of his or her congregation.
How would you count the vote in certain African countries, where the primate might insist that the entire national vote be put on the conservative side, but careful study of the actual attitudes of the congregation might call for a different answer.
Yes you would give the primate that vote… That was the concession/improvement over a simple one vote for each primate.
One has to trust that these people are empathetic to those in their congregations.
Ultimately it’s only a figurehead position and giving more votes to more people would give the role more authority in a way that I don’t think would be that helpful.
“I don’t like the idea that a woman ++ is ruled out because those in other parts of the Anglican Communion would object.” Agreed – – I however don’t think it will be ruled out so swiftly by the CNC.
There will almost certainly be some who have a bias to wanting to have the first women archbishop, and others who want to keep it male… but I would imagine that those from England will be able to overcome themselves.
How the 5 visitors from the rest of the communion are; that’s a big mystery I think.
Andrew Graystone knows a lot about a lot, but not much about the Anglican Communion. Having worked at the ACO for 10 years I believe that a woman as ABC would be widely welcomed. I was in Dar es Salaam for the 2007 Primates Meeting – a bastion of Anglican Catholicism – and while all the other Primates were welcomed with polite applause, the then presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori, was welcomed with whoops of joy and dancing in the isles. Archbishop Linda Nichols was also welcomed around the Communion. The Communion has a history of… Read more »
Hear hear. Perhaps rotating across Archbishops for a period of 6 months each, so it’s not long enough to cause any damage. Rather than being ‘in communion’ with Canterbury (as some may not be), perhaps the Lambeth Conferences could be a reminder of our shared heritage and joint hope for the future.
ABC should be head of CofE and based at Lambeth. +Dover should be diocesan of Canterbury. Only God is 3 in 1, not the ABC!
Realignment proponents like conservatives inside The Communion, and ACNA (the ‘don’t say gay’ American entity currently outside it) would like to see a primatial conclave ( rhymes with enclave) choose the figure head of a body that could claim to be an Anglican Communion so as to further cement and give credibility to the cis-heteronormative bias that characterizes much of Anglicanism. Other than the Primates’ gatherings, the other ‘instruments of Communion’, including especially probably the Anglican Consultative Council , are political irritants for this network. Interesting too how in areas that are non falsifiable/non verifiable i.e. scriptures, councils, doctrines etc.… Read more »
I do think that when the idea was cooked up, things were not as bad as they are now. The CofE may look like it is giving the Communion something a lot of Provinces don’t want.
J C Fisher
1 month ago
“For reasons that will have become clear, being non-committal on sexuality is often a sign of ambition for higher office.” [Tablet article]
Non-committal on same-sex commitment: what a sad, sad commentary on the state of the CofE.
Philip Welsh’s reflection is very interesting. Vocational discernment can be a bit like wandering down a hall of mirrors.
Rory Gillis
1 month ago
I am interested in the fact that the author of the article from The Tablet ( which I read often) is Andrew Graystone. For folks like me who do not live in the UK and who like me don’t know much about C of E tea leaves, there may be some interest in knowing more about the author’s book, Bleeding for Jesus: John Smyth and the Cult of Iwerne Camps. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/21/bleeding-for-jesus-book-tells-story-of-qc-who-pitilessly-abused-young-men I mention this because last week a friend of mine, an Anglican layperson here in Canada, emailed me and asked me about the John Smyth affair and the ABC,… Read more »
Flying scotsman
1 month ago
I think Helen-Ann will be the next Archbishop of york
Whilst I tend to agree that a female ABY is far more likely than a female ABC as a the next step. My worry is that having a conservative male ABC against same sex marriage and a female liberal ABY for it is just a way of creating provinces for conservatives and liberals without formally doing so. It would then be possible for churches to be set up to have extra-provincial oversight by an archbishop of their flavour.
That would turn the C of E into 2 competing sects. Once episcopal oversight becomes a matter of choice defined by one’s own shibboleth,which might vary as incumbents change, we lose any fragments of unity that still remain. Parishes adapt and bishops adapt although they might need training. Some years ago, we had an evangelical suffragan who preached at our Holy Week Masses. On Good Friday at the Liturgy, my job was to shepherd him and make sure he was in the right place. Afterwards he commented that he had never experienced it before but found it very moving. Let… Read more »
Your assumption that a female ABY would be liberal is deeply flawed. For example, our local suffragan is female, but she is very definitely a staunch member of the conservative wing in all respects other than female priesthood.
My assumption was that we would have Paul Williams as ABC and Helen-Ann Hartley as ABY as that is a scenario being discussed. I was not assuming a female bishop would be liberal because of their gender.
I was also not appointed to Winchester, maybe I was being held back?
Seriously the implication is that there is a lot of joined-up thinking between CNCs in a tactical way; and “we have a different vacancy coming up so let’s not talk about this person” might be discussed.
This is not my understanding or the experience I’ve heard from others – -and would imply a level of joined up thinking between departments in the CofE that is otherwise lacking.
This all being said – – she could be a candidate yes.
I see that she has now publicly called on ++Justin to resign. Given that she also was brave enough to remove +Sentamu’s PTO, I wonder if this will improve or damage her chances of becoming either ABC or ABY. either appointment would please those who lament the low number of Cof E Bishops with serious theological credentials. Incidentally, for the interest of TA’s trivia geeks, +Helen-Ann is the second former Bishop of Waikato, NZ to become Bishop of Newcastle. The first was Roger Herft who became Bishop of Newcastle, Australia, and then Archbishop of Perth before being forced to resign,… Read more »
Further to my earlier submission,I have now read the exchange of letters between +Helen-Ann and the two archbishhops concerning ++Sentamu, released by +H-A today. Wow
She is a very brave bishop.
Francis James
1 month ago
Here is link to Welby back in 2017 in full moral outrage mode criticising BBC: “I haven’t seen the same integrity over the BBC’s failures over Savile as I’ve seen in the Roman Catholic Church, in the Church of England, in other public institutions over abuse.” https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41449299
Hypocrite?
Anglican in Exile
1 month ago
At last the ‘progressives’ and the ‘orthodox’ in the Church of England have found something to unite them: the call for the resignation of the Archbishop of Canterbury! I suspect this current call might well be successful, but please, please, just be very careful what you wish for. The change in the CofE needs to be so much more far reaching than simply exchanging the person at the top. As Andrew Graystone painstakingly points out, the bid for the role of Archbishop at this particular time in the life of the Church will be extremely protracted, political, unedifying and divisive.… Read more »
All the news seems to be about how responsible 1 man is or is not.
But not about the systemic change needed – – or why does everything take so long to change.
Canterbury: who next?
‘It may be incomprehensible to the majority of the population, but the decision is likely to hinge on the candidates’ views on sexuality.’
And there’s the rub
That is why the conservative Paul Williams will get the job. That will be a disaster for the liberal wing and the LFF outcome. If that happens the liberals would be better off breaking communion with a Canterbury and forming their own parallel province in England, similar to what the Alliance is proposing for conservatives now. Thoughts?
Breaking communion is all too hastily done these days, and I suspect will be repented of ‘at leisure’. But what I meant by my original comment was, if the primary purpose of selecting the leader of the national church is incomprehensible to the majority of the nation, then we have a primary problem.
Given that only 1.5% of the population actually attend the so-called ‘national church’, I think that horse left the stable a long time ago.
It’s not ‘so-called’, it’s Established as such — the question is under what rationale?
I was born in England and my father was a CofE minister, so I think you can assume I know what ‘Established’ means. But I think when a church is only attended by 1.5% of the population, its claim to be the national church rings very hollow, Established or not.
I’m sorry if I came across as condescending — that was not my intention. I don’t deny that there is a problem with church attendance, and I don’t claim to have the answer, but so long as the CofE remains a) ‘Established’ and b) in legal opposition to the will of the nation as expressed in the Equality Act 2010 and the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013, then the problem will surely remain. It’s tedious to keep repeating it I know, and I also know that there are many other reasons people have for avoiding church, of any denomination.… Read more »
You do seem to enjoy kicking the CofE in the fork. It may be down but not out.
CofE minister?….I think we tend to be ordained priest.
“We” tend think you’re splitting a non existent hair… And are not deacons ministers… or Bishops?
And “priests also called presbyters”
Yes but the person referred to was a priest not a deacon or bishop. ( See BCP for ordination of priests) I don’t think he was a Mennonite either?
My dad was low church. He always used the word ‘minister’ – and he was a loyal Anglican all his life.
You know, this discussion never ends well. Blessings to you.
I see what you mean – but – – what do the majority of the nation think “primary purpose of selecting the leader of the national church is …”? I think most outside the church would assume it has something to do with having the right “belief” and in being good at “doing it” [which they may think means doing a service or similar] I think the idea that how the leader chooses to interpret theology on a point that is currently contentious to the church and how they will communicate it – should be crucial for the new… Read more »
How long before a member of the Royal Family wants a same sex marriage? It’s statistically inevitable. And how will they – and their subjects – react when told they can’t even have a stand-alone service of blessing in “their” church? In practice the couple would probably marry in Scotland but it would cause a real stink.
Whatever the traditionalists hope, equality in the established church is politically unstoppable. (The Alliance might have figured that out which would explain why they are so desperate for a “settlement”.)
It is difficult to say what will happen in the future around same sex relationships, but it is possible to point out that the church was happy to offer a service of blessing to Prince Charles and Camilla, despite their decades of acknowledged adultery, and the then archbishop of York publicly condoned sex outside marriage when commenting on the marriage of William and Kate. So if some very commendable pastoral flexibility around sex outside marriage is available to the king and his heir, it would be nice to think that such pastoral flexibility would be equally available to others, whether… Read more »
Quite. And at some point we can posit that the flexibility will need to include same sex marriage.
There are many good arguments for why the church should bless and/or marry same-sex couples. Saying it will make us more connected to the Royal family does not sound like a good argument to me. Being connected to the Royal family is not automatically “good” – and I doubt it is seen as that by the majority of the population. Also about 3.1% of the population are “gay/Lesbian/bisexual” – so 3/100 – – I don’t think it’s inevitable that we will get through 100 Royal Weddings and thus a statistical inevitability that we will see a royal same-sex-couple. Census data… Read more »
TimP “Being connected to the Royal family is not automatically “good” – and I doubt it is seen as that by the majority of the population.” Personally, I agree with you, but it seems that being connected to the Royal family is very important for the senior hierarchy of the Church of England. Some time ago I expressed surprise on TA that a diocesan bishop thought it more important to attend on the then Prince Charles at a Garter ceremony than to be present at General Synod, after an unfortunate clash of diaries. There were quite a few commenters on… Read more »
Quite!
What you think they are desperate? They have been remarkably consistent and are already working within existing C of E structures as a defacto 3rd province.
Please tell that to Africa.
Princess Anne, a divorcee, married Tim Lawrence at Crathes Kirk to avoid complications with the CofE.
Going to Scotland to avoid CofE marriage restrictions is a well beaten path for those at a senior level in the CofE hierarchy.
https://theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2021/08/governor-of-edinburgh-castle-gets-hitched/
I have problems with the international role of the ++. If the Anglican Communion needs an international figurehead (which I don’t think it does), should not the primates elect one of their number for the role?
++ Canterbury has enough to do in England.
I don’t like the idea that a woman ++ is ruled out because those in other parts of the Anglican Communion would object.
I like the idea of the primates electing one of their own.
I don’t. If the ABC is going to be the ‘figurehead’ of the whole Communion, it shouldn’t only be primates electing someone.
Given the choice is presumably from amongst them – they are likely to know of each other more than others… In the theoretical world – – I would be in favour of something like weighted-votes where it’s weighted by the membership size that each primate represents. But opening it up to the Bishops underneath feels like a lot of extra hassle to organise for not much difference in outcome (or a worse outcome as they would likely know a lot less of the other candidates apart from their own Archbishop). Opening it up even further – feels like a risk… Read more »
But if you have a weighted vote, is it only done on the view of the primate, or the view of his or her congregation.
How would you count the vote in certain African countries, where the primate might insist that the entire national vote be put on the conservative side, but careful study of the actual attitudes of the congregation might call for a different answer.
Yes you would give the primate that vote… That was the concession/improvement over a simple one vote for each primate.
One has to trust that these people are empathetic to those in their congregations.
Ultimately it’s only a figurehead position and giving more votes to more people would give the role more authority in a way that I don’t think would be that helpful.
That has long been the view of a great many of us. Interesting that events on the ground are catching up with this polity.
“I don’t like the idea that a woman ++ is ruled out because those in other parts of the Anglican Communion would object.”
Agreed – – I however don’t think it will be ruled out so swiftly by the CNC.
There will almost certainly be some who have a bias to wanting to have the first women archbishop, and others who want to keep it male… but I would imagine that those from England will be able to overcome themselves.
How the 5 visitors from the rest of the communion are; that’s a big mystery I think.
Andrew Graystone knows a lot about a lot, but not much about the Anglican Communion. Having worked at the ACO for 10 years I believe that a woman as ABC would be widely welcomed. I was in Dar es Salaam for the 2007 Primates Meeting – a bastion of Anglican Catholicism – and while all the other Primates were welcomed with polite applause, the then presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori, was welcomed with whoops of joy and dancing in the isles. Archbishop Linda Nichols was also welcomed around the Communion. The Communion has a history of… Read more »
The ABofC for England only and the Anglican Communion to have a rotating chairman (or team). We don’t need to have a a pseudo pope.
Hear hear. Perhaps rotating across Archbishops for a period of 6 months each, so it’s not long enough to cause any damage. Rather than being ‘in communion’ with Canterbury (as some may not be), perhaps the Lambeth Conferences could be a reminder of our shared heritage and joint hope for the future.
ABC should be head of CofE and based at Lambeth. +Dover should be diocesan of Canterbury. Only God is 3 in 1, not the ABC!
Realignment proponents like conservatives inside The Communion, and ACNA (the ‘don’t say gay’ American entity currently outside it) would like to see a primatial conclave ( rhymes with enclave) choose the figure head of a body that could claim to be an Anglican Communion so as to further cement and give credibility to the cis-heteronormative bias that characterizes much of Anglicanism. Other than the Primates’ gatherings, the other ‘instruments of Communion’, including especially probably the Anglican Consultative Council , are political irritants for this network. Interesting too how in areas that are non falsifiable/non verifiable i.e. scriptures, councils, doctrines etc.… Read more »
40% of the Communion is already effectively separated from the AC 0 already!
I do think that when the idea was cooked up, things were not as bad as they are now. The CofE may look like it is giving the Communion something a lot of Provinces don’t want.
“For reasons that will have become clear, being non-committal on sexuality is often a sign of ambition for higher office.” [Tablet article]
Non-committal on same-sex commitment: what a sad, sad commentary on the state of the CofE.
And in the case of certain churches, a sign of ambition for higher numbers
Higher numbers of what? [serious question]
Hi. Higher numbers of congregants, who are not initially made aware of the churches’ position on sexuality— eg see discussion around ‘Oxford Safer Churches Project’ at https://www.thinkinganglicans.org.uk/opinion-9-october-2024/
Philip Welsh’s reflection is very interesting. Vocational discernment can be a bit like wandering down a hall of mirrors.
I am interested in the fact that the author of the article from The Tablet ( which I read often) is Andrew Graystone. For folks like me who do not live in the UK and who like me don’t know much about C of E tea leaves, there may be some interest in knowing more about the author’s book, Bleeding for Jesus: John Smyth and the Cult of Iwerne Camps. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/21/bleeding-for-jesus-book-tells-story-of-qc-who-pitilessly-abused-young-men I mention this because last week a friend of mine, an Anglican layperson here in Canada, emailed me and asked me about the John Smyth affair and the ABC,… Read more »
I think Helen-Ann will be the next Archbishop of york
Whilst I tend to agree that a female ABY is far more likely than a female ABC as a the next step. My worry is that having a conservative male ABC against same sex marriage and a female liberal ABY for it is just a way of creating provinces for conservatives and liberals without formally doing so. It would then be possible for churches to be set up to have extra-provincial oversight by an archbishop of their flavour.
That would turn the C of E into 2 competing sects. Once episcopal oversight becomes a matter of choice defined by one’s own shibboleth,which might vary as incumbents change, we lose any fragments of unity that still remain. Parishes adapt and bishops adapt although they might need training. Some years ago, we had an evangelical suffragan who preached at our Holy Week Masses. On Good Friday at the Liturgy, my job was to shepherd him and make sure he was in the right place. Afterwards he commented that he had never experienced it before but found it very moving. Let… Read more »
Your assumption that a female ABY would be liberal is deeply flawed. For example, our local suffragan is female, but she is very definitely a staunch member of the conservative wing in all respects other than female priesthood.
My assumption was that we would have Paul Williams as ABC and Helen-Ann Hartley as ABY as that is a scenario being discussed. I was not assuming a female bishop would be liberal because of their gender.
I wonder if Rachel Treweek, having not been appointed to Winchester, would be the next ABC/ABY? Was she being held back for one of those roles?
It would be an excellent appointment if she was.
I was also not appointed to Winchester, maybe I was being held back?
Seriously the implication is that there is a lot of joined-up thinking between CNCs in a tactical way; and “we have a different vacancy coming up so let’s not talk about this person” might be discussed.
This is not my understanding or the experience I’ve heard from others – -and would imply a level of joined up thinking between departments in the CofE that is otherwise lacking.
This all being said – – she could be a candidate yes.
I see that she has now publicly called on ++Justin to resign. Given that she also was brave enough to remove +Sentamu’s PTO, I wonder if this will improve or damage her chances of becoming either ABC or ABY. either appointment would please those who lament the low number of Cof E Bishops with serious theological credentials. Incidentally, for the interest of TA’s trivia geeks, +Helen-Ann is the second former Bishop of Waikato, NZ to become Bishop of Newcastle. The first was Roger Herft who became Bishop of Newcastle, Australia, and then Archbishop of Perth before being forced to resign,… Read more »
Further to my earlier submission,I have now read the exchange of letters between +Helen-Ann and the two archbishhops concerning ++Sentamu, released by +H-A today. Wow
She is a very brave bishop.
Here is link to Welby back in 2017 in full moral outrage mode criticising BBC: “I haven’t seen the same integrity over the BBC’s failures over Savile as I’ve seen in the Roman Catholic Church, in the Church of England, in other public institutions over abuse.” https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41449299
Hypocrite?
At last the ‘progressives’ and the ‘orthodox’ in the Church of England have found something to unite them: the call for the resignation of the Archbishop of Canterbury! I suspect this current call might well be successful, but please, please, just be very careful what you wish for. The change in the CofE needs to be so much more far reaching than simply exchanging the person at the top. As Andrew Graystone painstakingly points out, the bid for the role of Archbishop at this particular time in the life of the Church will be extremely protracted, political, unedifying and divisive.… Read more »
I fear it will be a massive distraction.
All the news seems to be about how responsible 1 man is or is not.
But not about the systemic change needed – – or why does everything take so long to change.
Why was this report so delayed for example?
If a resignation follows an internet pile on, plus leaking of sensitive documents, some fearful precendents will be set.
‘… expedient, for the whole nation …. and the scattered children of God …that one man should … to bring them together’ (John 11: 50-52)