Mark Vasey-Saunders’ ‘Being a Community in the Midst of Disagreement’ has lessons beyond our Theology Colleges. Among the Michaelmas ordinations, five ordinands from Oxford Diocese refused to be ordained by their bishop because of his backing for Prayers of Love and Faith; instead opting for a retired bishop sympathetic to their position. In last week’s Church Times, Andrew Atherstone called such provision for the Oxford 5 “a model of generosity and pastoral care for other dioceses to follow.” Most bishops disagree; rightly so, as it abandons Catholic order and Canon Law in favour of PYO-bishop ecclesiology. In a recent thread,… Read more »
They have duly taken the oath of allegiance to the Sovereign and the oath of canonical obedience to the Bishop. They have affirmed and declared their belief in ‘the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness’.
The problem is when the first part of the oath conflicts with the second part – this puts ordinands in an impossible position.
If an ordinand thinks their interpretation of Scripture is infallible, and that their bishop is a false teacher, they’ve probably chosen the wrong denomination to exercise their ministry. A few minutes research during the discernment process would have revealed a breadth of theological tradition in the C of E, including many who are supportive of same sex relationships on theological grounds. It sounds like they embarked on training without doing due diligence first.
One could put the question the other way, many years ago (although still true today) there was an official document that said it’s a sin to have sex outside of hetero-marriage. Yet a number of people over the decades have felt a calling to the church of England despite personal beliefs that are contradictory to faith as understood by church of England In today’s world it’s more understandable today the cofe bears witness to a breadth of views; but certainly there was a time when that wasn’t the case, and a bit of “due diligence” should have made it clear… Read more »
My understanding of oaths of canonical obedience is that one’s superior is responsible for determining the rights and wrongs of issues. It’s an oath of humble submission. So there is properly no conflict.
According to the Ecclesiastical Law Journal 2014, “There are few cases on the scope and meaning of the oath but the Privy Council case of Long v Bishop of Cape Town (1863) decided that the oath only requires obedience to such commands as the superior is otherwise by law authorised to impose.” Which I suppose takes us back to the debate in Synod, is PLF/LLF changing the doctrine of the Church of England or undermining Canon B30. Does obedience to the canon demand disobedience to the diocesan bishop?
Yes, but isn’t it for the bishop, not ordinands or ordinaries to decide what those matters are, subject to recourse to CDM if a bishop acts egregiously badly?
Well no, I think. It is for the canons to say what is canonical. If a bishop believes a priest has not complied with a canonical instruction the bishop can bring a CDM against the priest.
The oath is qualified by the phrase ‘in all things lawful and honest’, which implies the clergy have a responsibility to decide whether a request or command is legitimate and can be obeyed.
I think it is worth noting that these ordinands started their training prior to the votes taken in General Synod allowing the “experimental” use of Stand alone service using PLF and furthermore this was the result of an amendment introduced by their own Diocesan bishop in November 2023. If they fundamentally disagree with him what are they to do? Abandon their calling? At a time when, in view of the dramatic drop in those seeking ordination, every ordinand should be valued and encouraged surely this is a reasonable way forward and may well become the pattern when the pastoral guidance… Read more »
So we ignore Catholic order to accommodate those ordinands who would deny the office of their chief pastor over a second order issue? To me this seems more politic than principled.
Perhaps they don’t regard this as a second order issue, and aren’t persuaded by assertions (on what possible foundation?) that it must only be so regarded in the C of E? Perhaps ‘politics’ are going on for all parties concerned, alongside principles (I tend to find real life is an unavoidable admixture of the two). Maybe the Bishop of Oxford would rather keep curates who think his teaching is false within the tent, rather than commissioned in irregular ways, to operate outside the regular structures of the diocese. Any criticism of this ordination should apply both to those directly involved,… Read more »
I don’t agree with their views or their action. But I think it’s only fair to say that for them, same sex marriage is a first order issue, while ‘catholic order’ is a second order issue. So, a principled action on their terms.
This kind of thing was inevitable when the C of E decreed that those objecting to the ordination of women could have their own bishops – and many of us said so at the time.
I’m out of touch here, but isn’t ecclesiology still a mandatory subject in our TEIs? If ordinands cannot accept Anglican teaching on this, then wouldn’t the principled action be to find a more congenial denomination?
I agree that making provision for traditional Catholics set the precedent. However, the analogy gets more than a little strained as these were already priests and it would have been unconscionable not to have accommodated them. The mistake, to my mind, was in making this commitment open-ended.
There are no mandatory subjects in TEIs. I can point you to several where there is no discernable teaching of ecclesiology and no teaching of liturgy / worship either. And nothing on Anglicanism or preaching…..
Very good question. Some years ago I used the library of a theological college in a course of study. I came across a paper outlining the worship for a particular week. During that week the college chapel was used once. The rest of the time worship took place in a variety of small groups which presumably had some sense of belonging within the whole college community but bore no recognition to any pattern of worship the students might find in any parish they might serve. The music contained one recognisable hymn, that being ‘Be still for the presence of the… Read more »
Ummm…. I completed training within the last 5 years. No. Ecclesiology is not taught at all, let alone being mandatory. Lots of ministry and mission, but only one doctrine – the trinity. Nothing on soteriology, or even much bible study. I did however learn how to eat food, play with bits of string and I can reflect theologically. So that’s nice. And we got to spend time with Buddhists, learnt poetry with Malcolm Guite and how to do a school assembly badly.
Bless you Duncan.
I completed training within the last 40 years and things were similar then. More RS Thomas than Malcolm Guite back in those days. Perhaps the lack of Biblical and Doctrinal formation among Ordinands and Congregations is playing out its longue duree consequences?
I wonder if ‘catholic order’ has a clear meaning any longer in the CofE, if ever it did? One school of thought would say that ‘catholic order’ isn’t separable from sexual ethics and marriage as defined in the Church catholic. Terms begin to take on privatized meanings.
I’m not sure it ever did have a clear meaning. When and where did the term originate? I was never taught it (at Wycliffe, where we did do ecclesiology), and it’s only the recent disputes which have brought it so prominently to my notice.
The use of the term “catholic” in general in anglicanism is a word in search of a meaning, given the existence of the Catholic Church. The creed has us say we believe in One Holy Catholic Church but of course belief and reality are not the same, which is why we can recite it as what we believe Christ intended. Latterly, at places like TA, people use the term as if being obedient to Bishops is “catholic.” It might be more accurate to say it is canonical (if it is). Or, “catholic order” means attention to rubrics and forms of… Read more »
I was taught that ‘catholic’, when used in the BCP and our formularies, means ‘universal’ or ‘broad’. Hence my puzzlement when people talk of ‘catholic order’.
If Oxford was the sending diocese it’s not that easy to change for the title post I don’t think. And in any case, I don’t think it’s helpful. We used to have an evangelical orthodox bishop – I don’t think it would have been helpful if liberal or catholic clergy had decided to leave or not take up jobs here for that reason. Finding a way to accommodate a breadth within a diocese is surely preferable to creating regional pockets? The counter argument is always “but how much breadth – would you be happy with (insert extreme example.. vicar sacrificing… Read more »
There are many of us who think that the least helpful option is to ordain curates who don’t accept the diocesan bishop’s authority. ‘Pick your own bishop’ should not be permitted in any Anglican province or national church.
I’ve spent the last fifty odd years learning that – now, in some circles, it seems I was misled! And what is the point of having an archbishop, nominally in charge of an international organisation, if he or she is simply a toothless figurehead, with no power or authority to discipline people who deliberately choose to split the organisation? The late Arthur Wallace and his friends made much use of their ‘divine authority’ to challenge the existing church organisations – doesn’t Cantuar or Ebor?
Yes… And no.
Suppose a Bishop’s views don’t, heaven forfend, differ from the official doctrines of the CofE? The Diocese doesn’t belong to any Bishop. He or she are guardians… not independent kings..
Cookoos in the nest?
I shudder at the logical conclusion of ‘every ordinand should be valued and encouraged’…. Or are you assuming that the original vetting process is infallible?
Im sorry to have made you shudder Susanna!. My point was that we need all the ordinands coming forward if we are to have a future in the Church of England even those we may fundamentally disagree with. There have been and will be those of every flavour in the Church of England who abuse their position. Obviously it is part of the responsibility of those selecting and training our ordinands to identify those who have that potential. Mike Pilavachi is the latest but in my own geographical area those from a very different part of the church have been… Read more »
“be curious, be present, and reimagine”. Thank you, Simon. It’s exactly the point I was trying to make in my original post. Most of us, liberal as much as conservative, prefer the comfort of our own silo. But as the ABC’s Difference Course suggests, to reimagine we first need to be present. The Oxford 5 were not present – a potential loss to the whole body of Christ.
I may be misunderstanding you here. But I do not see that encouraging and valuing an ordinand in their vocation must be based on the assumption their vetting process was infallible.
David, I probably wasn’t terribly clear . My anxiety is that that in a time of shortage vetting becomes less rigorous than it should, or that those undergoing training are ‘nodded through’ rather than monitored properly. It was also not a comment on the supply of conservative or liberal candidates but a purely safeguarding one. With the increase of vetting in so many professions teaching and the church are now particularly tempting openings for those seeking access to young people for the wrong reasons, so I would suggest that more rather than less care probably needs to be taken
Charismatic evangelicals do not put prophesy above scripture, so relax. Prophesy encourages and invigorates the church to prevent it becoming dry and institutionalised. That is why charismatic churches are growing.
Bristol Cathedral has a prophetic ministry which addresses issues of climate change, community relations, the legacy of chattel slavery and other matters which arise out of the life of our diverse city and it is a growing community. It’s not, however, charismatic in the conventionally understood meaning of that word.
Someone writing in the Baptist Times many years ago remarked that it was easaier to get an agreed, ‘prophetic’ statement on climate change, arms reduction or other political issues than it was about essential, explicitly Christian doctrines. And someone else once said there was more true prophesy in the Daily Mirror than most pulpits! It all depends on what you mean by prophesy….. Someone sent me an article by a Muslim prophetess, Nonie Darwish today, and if she’s right, her view of our future is horrifying. We don’t hear anything like that from the Christian camp – save from folks… Read more »
Can I just point out (the confusion has appeared several times in comments above) that ‘prophecy’ is the noun (the name of the phenomenon) and ‘prophesy’ is the verb (‘she began to prophesy’).
Charles Razzall
2 months ago
These ordinations have taken place under the authority of the Diocesan…the Bishop of Oxford ..so surely questions about them should be addressed to him ?
You mean a private message? I do hope they have regular conversations… Seriously though they may say “it could be more helpful if you encourage them to attend your service, as we haven’t set up alternative Episcopal provision in the same way we have for those who don’t accept female bishops”. But as it’s all new, not really sure what else could be done in the timeframe. Neither asking them to change their beliefs (which had been ‘more acceptable’ a few years ago as others have pointed out) or asking to move to another diocese feels to me like it… Read more »
Diocesans as far as I’m aware only delegate ordinations to their suffragan/assistant bishops, who then act as the diocesan’s proxies. The point being that this is not done to accommodate theological differences. The exception of course is the provision mandated by Synod for those unable to accept female priests and bishops.
If the ‘unable to accept’ language is appropriate for those objecting to women’s ordination, why is it not appropriate for those objecting to same-sex marriage?
“Certainly, if I am obliged to bring religion into after-dinner toasts, I shall drink – to the Pope, if you please – still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.” A quote that has been used to justify all kinds of self-indulgent nonsense. Newman, of course, meant the informed conscience. So far, so good! Yet I suspect Newman would have asked what you mean by “their theology.” The crux of Mark Vasey-Saunders piece is that theology is best learnt in community, for all the vulnerability that exposes us to: “Part of any educational process is to unlearn some of… Read more »
The evangelical ordinands will have learned their theology in community – first in their home churches, then in the (presumably evangelical) theological colleges or courses they attended. Would you be willing to change your theology simply because General Synod declared to be true something which you believed to be false? And would you then alter your behaviour accordingly? The history of women’s ordination suggests that very few people do that. If opposed to women’s ordination, many demand alternative episcopal oversight and separate Maundy Thursday services, they continue to refuse to acknowledge the validity of women’s orders, they don’t acknowledge their… Read more »
My point is that we get the GS we deserve. Conservatives are focused, organised and disciplined in a way others are not. The result is a Synod which is unrepresentative of the C of E.
I’m not aware of any limitation as to which bishops a diocesan might invite to ordain within their diocese. It seems to me that the key thing here is that +Oxon has sought to implement a canonical arrangement, which must be preferable to the uncanonical and highly irregular commissioning that took place at Bishopgate.
FrDavid H
2 months ago
It is preposterous that the Bishop of Oxford isn’t welcome at the communion ‘table’ at St Ebba’s Oxford because the gay vicar regards same-sex attracted people having desires emanating from a mythical ‘Fall’. The bishop is more sympathetic to gay people than the vicar is to himself. It can’t be easy to dislike oneself so much that a self-imposed rule of celibacy is commended by a gay man to all other gay people. No wonder the Church is in decline when some Christians hate, not just others, but hate themselves as well.
I certainly agree with your first statement. If we keep calling ourselves Anglican – that should mean more than “those methodists/baptists/free-church/etc people over there are probably Christians in some sense” – and one outworking should be the communion cup. However the final point I think is hyperbole “No wonder the Church is in decline when some ….” I think this presupposes that large numbers of people outside the church both care or understand what’s going on inside. There are Christian churches who happily marry/bless gay couples – they do not appear to be bursting at the seams. The Church of… Read more »
It is true that embracing LGBT marriage does not seem to have led to numerical attendance growth in those churches that have done it. But it’s impossible to say what effect, if any, or none, the change has had- I mean it’s not exactly been a controlled study has it? It is very likely as you imply (I hope I’m not misreading) that a majority of people in the West have major problems- possibly for the first time in history- with the very premise of the religious dimension. I think in the UK at least, it is increasingly the case… Read more »
Controlled studies are impossible in actual, granular historical situations, aren’t they? But that doesn’t prevent a tentative, always corrigible historical enquiry being performed, hypotheses constructed and ideas tested against evidence. It’s argued, e.g. by Ian Paul, that there is demonstrable evidence that the churches that are growing currently, tend to have a conservative theology. While those that have embraced what he would criticise as ‘progressive’ agendas – The US Episcopal Church, the Church of Scotland, the English Methodists – have experienced decline. Cause and effect, or correlation? I don’t know. Nor does church growth prove rectitude, surely. But there’s a… Read more »
Whatever Ian Paul argues, the evidence is not demonstrable and as you rightly state, we do not, cannot know what is correlation and what is causation. As I said, we’re in the realms of guesswork, which just invites in our own biases (e.g. conservative, Ian Paul; progressive, mine). I’m of the opinion that the decline of religion in the West has precious little to do with what churches are or are not doing, how they are doing or not doing mission or treating minorities, and much more to do with a major shift in the zeitgeist, which started far back… Read more »
The decline of religion in the West can be, I think, largely chalked up to the influence of science education. One hundred years ago, the average person got very little in the way of a scientific education–beyond the basics of understanding the temperature scales, for instance. Today, an adult without a grounding in science is at a great disadvantage in employment (even in the field of manual labor).
That has meant when religion is at odds with science (as in LGBT issues) religion loses the argument, especially for people born since the end of the baby boom.
I want to reinforce the conclusion Fr Andrew arrives at: “Growth is not the be all and end all of church, never was, never will be. Including LGBT people fully in the life of the Church is the right thing to do whether it leads to growth, quicker decline or has no effect at all.” “Similarly, unity is not the be all and the end all of church, never was and never will be. Including LGBT people fully in the life of the Church is the right thing to do.” This saves me having to read again the comments on… Read more »
“Growth is not the be all and end of church.” Growth is vital for the church. Numerical growth so that congregations do not age. Spiritual growth so that Christians mature in their faith. So that new churches are started amongst all the new housing. So that the great commission is fulfilled. That said, clever man made strategies do not always result in growth. It’s the Holy Spirit working in people’s hearts, it’s the faithful preaching of God’s word, its lives lived out for Christ that are crucial.
Bob, numerical growth so that congregations do not age is a failing objective in, I suspect, the majority of congregations – certainly the majority of congregations in my area. Spiritual growth is vital, but the quality of growth, growth in what and towards what, are questions not being asked, let alone explored, and certainly not being rooted in the teachings and life of Jesus. So fulfilling the great commission is to be fulfilled? For me, a literal, monochrome understanding of the great commission (or, as people think of it, “The Great Commission”, carries great dangers with it, related to Christian… Read more »
Growing a congregation may or may not be the be all and end all of a church’s life. However, if we are at all interested in following Jesus, then spreading the gospel and making disciples is an integral part of that.
Tim, I am a follower of Jesus and I am deeply alarmed by many of the teachings of today’s Church. They may or may not be “Biblical” teachings or “Pauline” or from the Gospel versions of Jesus, and quite possibly the actual teachings of Jesus, but today’s Church is in chaos as a result of its inability to evolve it understanding of the essence of what you or I or anyone might understanding of Jesus in the light of the development of our knowledge of the Biblical texts. I’m reading Diarmaid MacCulloch’s Lower Than The Angels at the moment. Reading… Read more »
Simon Dawson
2 months ago
Whilst the ordination issue in Oxford is important, it would be a pity not to pay attention to the Surviving Church articles. There are clear safeguarding concerns there, which have been reported to the bishop, and no action appears to be in hand. Again it is the bishop of Oxford.
Thank- you Simon for moving onto this- I was wondering whether I felt strong enough to comment . I had missed the publication of the Safer Churches project last year and was horrified by Stephen Parsons’s articles. In any other walk of life the activities of these churches would be illegal. It will come as a tremendous shock to most young people whose schools’ PHSE lessons will have been based on the equality laws of this country. That this is taking place within our Established church- and is doubtless a matter of pride for the homophobics responsible- is nothing short… Read more »
As another angle – – I think it’s easy to point to many things that fall under the banner of conversion therapy and describe it as abuse. But – – on the flip side. What practice could/should be commended that is not seen as abuse? I think it’s a statement of fact that a large number of Anglicans (and of other Christian branches) hold a belief that sex outside of marriage (hetero) is a sin, and that many people are tempted to sin – – possibly by a temptation for gay-sex, but for many a temptation to any out-of-marriage sex… Read more »
I think the same logic could be applied to anything that someone may want to come to confession for. I picked sexuality because that is the topic of discussion. I think you are advocating a “well they can come to confession – but never challenge people on a sin, be it sexual or otherwise – let God do that”. I can see the logic but it feels at odds with some of the bold statements of the Bible. (not just about sex – – but e.g. idolatry or gossip or etc) – there does seem to be a strong message… Read more »
The purpose of Confession is not to order people to stop doing naughty things, but to assure the penitent of God’s unconditional love for them and to lift the burden of transgression through absolution. You seem to have an odd view of priestly ministry. It doesn’t exist to tell people off.
I could take the bait and say I think you have an odd view on Christian discipleship if forgiveness is only about a ticket into heaven rather than a call to repent and turn away from sin and try to live in future more aligned to God’s will.
As Jesus said to the women “go and sin no more”
He also condemned sinful behaviour at other times….
But I don’t actually think you have a cheap view of salvation, you’re just clearly not wanting to engage on this topic…
I’m not sure how you think I’m discussing a “ticket into heaven”. My contention is that conservatives like yourself have become obsessed with sexual morality which has dominated CofE debate for decades. Jesus telling gay people to “sin no more” is equated with a call to celibacy and has become a salvation issue. That has turned the church into a puritanical sect which is ugly and unwelcoming.
‘I’m not sure how you think I’m discussing a “ticket into heaven”.’ That should be an obvious straw man you’d walked yourself into. I did then say – – “But I don’t actually think…” My point was you were being very clear on talking about forgiveness from God – but saying nothing about living a call to holiness and even seemingly resistant to the teaching of it. I have been trying to engage in a debate in good faith, but you don’t seem to want to engage with the idea that Christianity might actually have something to teach people about… Read more »
I have not managed to read all of the article – but thank you for raising it as important. I do want to comment that I do feel it’s a tad confusing to me why people talk about a “secrecy of theology” regarding LGBT in some churches. Surely the theology is very clear from an official line. We know that a lot of people dissent from it – either to a lesser or greater extent (I count myself amongst the lesser dissent); but surely one should assume the official position until proven(or claimed) otherwise? Let me say again – –… Read more »
Asking for a friend, but do people know how to find out what the official line actually is? For the Catholic Church there is the Catechism. An Anglican Catechism (2001), by Edward Norman, doesn’t have an equivalent status! Several Anglican teachings vanished, temporarily at least, when the C of E website was reorganised a few years ago. And there are many vicars who if asked would present you with what is no more than “Christianity – a personal view”.
Tim, If there was a single “official line” on any issue in the Church of England then there would not be a problem. But one of the strengths of the Church of England is that a diversity of views is allowed. For example it is acceptable to believe either that women should or should not be priests or bishops. Similarly, in the current position where LGBTQIA issues are being debated, it is perfectly acceptable to be a priest or bishop either against or in favour of gay marriage, and to argue the point either way. In my home city of… Read more »
Surely it is important to keep in mind that a statement like “one of the strengths of the Church of England is that a diversity of views is allowed” is, strictly speaking, an opinion. The Church of England knew no such idea at its conception. The Elizabethan Settlement is itself far from this wide-reaching opinion. An equally valid opinion is “one of the inherent weaknesses of the Church of England is that over time, a diversity of views became something like its own dogma.” Held by some, and rejected by others. That is far closer to the actual reality of… Read more »
How are young people who have no church background going to know what is the official line of the C of E, or of any church? They will naturally assume that equality law applies in church, as it does in their educational institution and everywhere else.
I think most young people still think that churches have something to do with God and maybe offers some answers to the messed up world they see around them. Well let’s hope.
Adrian, in my experience many of the young men and women I talk to are very interested in ideas around God and spirituality and how to lead a good life. Many explore ideas and read extensively around religion and spirituality, and are interested in Christian ideas and the Bible. But these same young men and women tend to discuss and explore these ideas in online blogs and webinars, or in philosophy clubs. In their experience they will not find what they are looking for by going through the doors of a church, where the level of debate and discussion and… Read more »
The blog is specifically about students going to churches, unaware of their stance in LGBT matters.
I’m not sure how many students without any religious background will be aware of Muslim (or Jewish, Buddhist, HIndu, etc) doctrine and attitudes re homosexuality. But it would be a fair assumption that England’s official, established church would obey equality law.
‘They will naturally assume that equality law applies in church, as it does in their educational institution and everywhere else’. Sorry Janet, I misunderstood the import of your ‘everywhere else’. I do think plenty of undergraduates will be aware of Muslim attitudes to homosexuality, though. Or perhaps I am overestimating the scope of the intelligence and knowledge-base of contemporary students. Maybe the existence of ‘Queers for Palestine’ suggests that’s quite possible. I think some thinking about ‘Equality Law’ and the role of the State is helpful here. Just because the State enshrines an ideology in law, must any or every… Read more »
The point being made is simply that where churches believe same-sex relationships to be sinful, they put something on their websites to the effect that marriage is only and always between a man and a woman. This, as the two blogs make clear, is to avoid students finding out only when they have already settled in and made relationships, with all the psychological and social pressure that entails – not to mention the risk of being ‘exorcised’ of their gayness. The writers are not saying that every church must agree that same sex relationships are good.
I feel people and churches should have the right to present their beliefs in the way that they feel is comfortable and/or helpful. I would imagine that these churches would sincerely believe that belief in Jesus’ Love and the trinity are far more important things to signpost than marriage. Indeed another commentator criticises the obsession with sex that some people have – so why would they want to refer to sex on their websites? Also should people only join a church if they agree with all of the beliefs – that might make it harder for any of our churches… Read more »
The Surviving Church articles identify safeguarding concerns at a number of churches in Oxford, but a recent independent review of safeguarding in the Oxford diocese gave it a clean bill of health. BBC News reported last month that: An independent review into the safeguarding work at a Church of England diocese has praised it as “exceptionally well-led”.The audit into the practices of the Diocese of Oxford was conducted in June, with the results published this week.Independent industry experts Ineqe Safeguarding Group conducted the review.It is part of a national programme, commissioned by the Archbishop’s Council, to review safeguarding at each… Read more »
I wonder what the review methodology was. Did they simply chat to safeguarding staff and look at the paperwork and systems, or did they make effective effort to go out into the community to get feedback from people with concerns?
How would the young students mentioned in the Safe Churches reports (last years report is well worth reading) have known about the safeguarding review and had a chance to feed their experience in to the system?
One other point. It is worth bearing in mind that Oxford is not exclusively C of E, and so much discussion on the TA blog is through an exclusively Anglican lens. The report assesses LGBTQIA+ safety in ALL the churches in Oxford, many of which are independent charismatic, as well as Baptist and URC. Such churches would be outside the Oxford Diocesan Safeguarding system. Please do read the report. It seem to be a sensible approach to a real problem; honest about the evidence sources; and asks for feedback to correct incorrect allegations. https://www.oulgbtq.org/uploads/1/1/0/3/110317091/oxford-safe-churches-report.pdf Having said that, the report is… Read more »
You can find the INEQE report on the diocese website.which explains their methodology: • Over 250 documents being collated and analysed prior to the Audit’s fieldwork. • A range of interviews with Church officers (staff and volunteers), external partners, victims and survivors and other stakeholders. • 335 anonymous survey responses which gathered input from victims and survivors, children and young people as well as those worshipping and / or working within the Diocese of Oxford. • Six focus groups. • A confidential contact form accessible via a dedicated webpage.• In total, the Audit undertook 30 separate engagement sessions reaching 82 people. … Read more »
Thanks Maude, That is incredibly helpful. I have a lot of sympathy for the Safe Churches Project. They did not get everything right but they have raised awareness and started a conversation which can only be helpful. Sadly it seems that people within the Oxford diocese do not want to invite the safe Churches project to join that conversation. Last year the project received a bit of pushback, on this site and elsewhere, which I think was regrettable and almost amounted to clericalism. I wonder if your “swept under the carpet” question is simply because people are embarrassed about the… Read more »
Thanks Simon. Diocesan officials are naturally keen to blow their own trumpet after the publication of the INEQE report which found that safeguarding systems, policies and procedures are very good overall. It notes that survivors of abuse can in all cases report their concerns safely. But it is surprising that the Oxford Safe Churches Project is not named specifically. You would not expect to find qualitative data about individual cases in a report for publication, but you might have found evidence of the scale of the problem expressed quantitavely, and information about how survivors of the alleged abuse can seek… Read more »
And yet, as I understand, Dominic Grieves’ proposals for the reform of Christ Church, Oxford retain the anomaly, unparalleled elsewhere in the Church of England, that the Diocesan Bishop is not the Ordinary in ‘his’ Cathedral.
Very difficult, and very unlikely, I suggest. This has all been discussed previously at length on TA. Other parties involved include the Crown (the present Visitor of both Cathedral and College), HM Privy Council, the University and Parliament.
That’s interesting, Rowland, because INEQE have been tasked with conducting an independent safeguarding audit of Church of England dioceses AND cathedrals. So who is doing an audit of safeguarding at Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford?
It is stated that this project is expected to take four years. Clearly Christ Church hasn’t been reached yet. The answer to your question will be interesting when it happens. INEQE ‘Lead Auditor’ Jim Gamble states that their brief extends to “42 Dioceses, 42 Cathdrals and 2 Palaces”. That still leaves some scope for doubt: Leeds Diocese, for example, has three cathedrals.
However, on that timescale, I suppose that it is possible that Christ Church might have new Statutes. Again, a case of ‘watch this space’.
However the report states that the audit did not extend to Christ Church Cathedral “since it is a ‘Royal Peculiar’”. Unfortunately that is not correct: properly it is a ‘non-Royal Peculiar’ (of which there are numerous other examples), albeit that Christ Church is “a Royal Foundation of King Henry VIII”, a confusing state of affairs which has also figured at great length in comments on TA.
Thanks Rowland. Even if it is a non-Royal peculiar, it is surely anomalous that it is excluded from the audit when its remit expressly covers dioceses, cathedrals and palaces.
It is certainly an anomaly that someone told INEQE that the Cathedral is a Royal Peculiar. In paragraph 1.1, the report does state that the Cathedral has been the subject of a separate audit (but no details by whom) “which is pending publication”.
Mark Vasey-Saunders’ ‘Being a Community in the Midst of Disagreement’ has lessons beyond our Theology Colleges. Among the Michaelmas ordinations, five ordinands from Oxford Diocese refused to be ordained by their bishop because of his backing for Prayers of Love and Faith; instead opting for a retired bishop sympathetic to their position. In last week’s Church Times, Andrew Atherstone called such provision for the Oxford 5 “a model of generosity and pastoral care for other dioceses to follow.” Most bishops disagree; rightly so, as it abandons Catholic order and Canon Law in favour of PYO-bishop ecclesiology. In a recent thread,… Read more »
They have duly taken the oath of allegiance to the Sovereign and the oath of canonical obedience to the Bishop. They have affirmed and declared their belief in ‘the faith which is revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds and to which the historic formularies of the Church of England bear witness’.
The problem is when the first part of the oath conflicts with the second part – this puts ordinands in an impossible position.
If an ordinand thinks their interpretation of Scripture is infallible, and that their bishop is a false teacher, they’ve probably chosen the wrong denomination to exercise their ministry. A few minutes research during the discernment process would have revealed a breadth of theological tradition in the C of E, including many who are supportive of same sex relationships on theological grounds. It sounds like they embarked on training without doing due diligence first.
One could put the question the other way, many years ago (although still true today) there was an official document that said it’s a sin to have sex outside of hetero-marriage. Yet a number of people over the decades have felt a calling to the church of England despite personal beliefs that are contradictory to faith as understood by church of England In today’s world it’s more understandable today the cofe bears witness to a breadth of views; but certainly there was a time when that wasn’t the case, and a bit of “due diligence” should have made it clear… Read more »
My understanding of oaths of canonical obedience is that one’s superior is responsible for determining the rights and wrongs of issues. It’s an oath of humble submission. So there is properly no conflict.
According to the Ecclesiastical Law Journal 2014, “There are few cases on the scope and meaning of the oath but the Privy Council case of Long v Bishop of Cape Town (1863) decided that the oath only requires obedience to such commands as the superior is otherwise by law authorised to impose.” Which I suppose takes us back to the debate in Synod, is PLF/LLF changing the doctrine of the Church of England or undermining Canon B30. Does obedience to the canon demand disobedience to the diocesan bishop?
How would being ordained by the Bishop of Oxford be contrary to Canon B30?
Canonical obedience means obedience in matters on which the canons specifically grant the right to command. Otherwise, what else could canonical mean?
Yes, but isn’t it for the bishop, not ordinands or ordinaries to decide what those matters are, subject to recourse to CDM if a bishop acts egregiously badly?
Well no, I think. It is for the canons to say what is canonical. If a bishop believes a priest has not complied with a canonical instruction the bishop can bring a CDM against the priest.
The oath is qualified by the phrase ‘in all things lawful and honest’, which implies the clergy have a responsibility to decide whether a request or command is legitimate and can be obeyed.
Absolutely.
I think it is worth noting that these ordinands started their training prior to the votes taken in General Synod allowing the “experimental” use of Stand alone service using PLF and furthermore this was the result of an amendment introduced by their own Diocesan bishop in November 2023. If they fundamentally disagree with him what are they to do? Abandon their calling? At a time when, in view of the dramatic drop in those seeking ordination, every ordinand should be valued and encouraged surely this is a reasonable way forward and may well become the pattern when the pastoral guidance… Read more »
So we ignore Catholic order to accommodate those ordinands who would deny the office of their chief pastor over a second order issue? To me this seems more politic than principled.
Perhaps they don’t regard this as a second order issue, and aren’t persuaded by assertions (on what possible foundation?) that it must only be so regarded in the C of E? Perhaps ‘politics’ are going on for all parties concerned, alongside principles (I tend to find real life is an unavoidable admixture of the two). Maybe the Bishop of Oxford would rather keep curates who think his teaching is false within the tent, rather than commissioned in irregular ways, to operate outside the regular structures of the diocese. Any criticism of this ordination should apply both to those directly involved,… Read more »
I don’t agree with their views or their action. But I think it’s only fair to say that for them, same sex marriage is a first order issue, while ‘catholic order’ is a second order issue. So, a principled action on their terms.
This kind of thing was inevitable when the C of E decreed that those objecting to the ordination of women could have their own bishops – and many of us said so at the time.
I’m out of touch here, but isn’t ecclesiology still a mandatory subject in our TEIs? If ordinands cannot accept Anglican teaching on this, then wouldn’t the principled action be to find a more congenial denomination?
I agree that making provision for traditional Catholics set the precedent. However, the analogy gets more than a little strained as these were already priests and it would have been unconscionable not to have accommodated them. The mistake, to my mind, was in making this commitment open-ended.
There are no mandatory subjects in TEIs. I can point you to several where there is no discernable teaching of ecclesiology and no teaching of liturgy / worship either. And nothing on Anglicanism or preaching…..
So what do they study?
Very good question. Some years ago I used the library of a theological college in a course of study. I came across a paper outlining the worship for a particular week. During that week the college chapel was used once. The rest of the time worship took place in a variety of small groups which presumably had some sense of belonging within the whole college community but bore no recognition to any pattern of worship the students might find in any parish they might serve. The music contained one recognisable hymn, that being ‘Be still for the presence of the… Read more »
As some of us have discovered when teaching what was once called POT
And what did you once called POT?
It is now IME 4-7. But I suspect most clergy know it as Post Ordination Training
Often referred to as ‘Potty Training’.
Ummm…. I completed training within the last 5 years. No. Ecclesiology is not taught at all, let alone being mandatory. Lots of ministry and mission, but only one doctrine – the trinity. Nothing on soteriology, or even much bible study. I did however learn how to eat food, play with bits of string and I can reflect theologically. So that’s nice. And we got to spend time with Buddhists, learnt poetry with Malcolm Guite and how to do a school assembly badly.
Bless you Duncan.
I completed training within the last 40 years and things were similar then. More RS Thomas than Malcolm Guite back in those days. Perhaps the lack of Biblical and Doctrinal formation among Ordinands and Congregations is playing out its longue duree consequences?
Yikes, that’s worrying.
I wonder if ‘catholic order’ has a clear meaning any longer in the CofE, if ever it did? One school of thought would say that ‘catholic order’ isn’t separable from sexual ethics and marriage as defined in the Church catholic. Terms begin to take on privatized meanings.
I’m not sure it ever did have a clear meaning. When and where did the term originate? I was never taught it (at Wycliffe, where we did do ecclesiology), and it’s only the recent disputes which have brought it so prominently to my notice.
Try 597 – as in “The Church of England: loving Jesus with a slight air of superiority since 597.”
The use of the term “catholic” in general in anglicanism is a word in search of a meaning, given the existence of the Catholic Church. The creed has us say we believe in One Holy Catholic Church but of course belief and reality are not the same, which is why we can recite it as what we believe Christ intended. Latterly, at places like TA, people use the term as if being obedient to Bishops is “catholic.” It might be more accurate to say it is canonical (if it is). Or, “catholic order” means attention to rubrics and forms of… Read more »
I was taught that ‘catholic’, when used in the BCP and our formularies, means ‘universal’ or ‘broad’. Hence my puzzlement when people talk of ‘catholic order’.
Same here, Janet. That was about the one piece of knowledge I’ve retained from my confirmation classes!
Well, they have accepted posts within the Bishop of Oxford’s diocese, and they knew what his views were before they did that.
If Oxford was the sending diocese it’s not that easy to change for the title post I don’t think. And in any case, I don’t think it’s helpful. We used to have an evangelical orthodox bishop – I don’t think it would have been helpful if liberal or catholic clergy had decided to leave or not take up jobs here for that reason. Finding a way to accommodate a breadth within a diocese is surely preferable to creating regional pockets? The counter argument is always “but how much breadth – would you be happy with (insert extreme example.. vicar sacrificing… Read more »
There are many of us who think that the least helpful option is to ordain curates who don’t accept the diocesan bishop’s authority. ‘Pick your own bishop’ should not be permitted in any Anglican province or national church.
3rd Province. QED
Learn to live and work alongside those they disagree with. QED
I’ve spent the last fifty odd years learning that – now, in some circles, it seems I was misled! And what is the point of having an archbishop, nominally in charge of an international organisation, if he or she is simply a toothless figurehead, with no power or authority to discipline people who deliberately choose to split the organisation? The late Arthur Wallace and his friends made much use of their ‘divine authority’ to challenge the existing church organisations – doesn’t Cantuar or Ebor?
At least one of the Oxford ordinands was an Ely ordinand – so has transferred (and was not ordained directly at the end of their training).
And please use the word ‘orthodox’ correctly!
Yes… And no.
Suppose a Bishop’s views don’t, heaven forfend, differ from the official doctrines of the CofE? The Diocese doesn’t belong to any Bishop. He or she are guardians… not independent kings..
Cookoos in the nest?
The ‘official doctrine of the C of E’ has been under review for some years now. Differences of opinion are acknowledged.
Like nearly 500 years?
Under review isn’t a change though.
I shudder at the logical conclusion of ‘every ordinand should be valued and encouraged’…. Or are you assuming that the original vetting process is infallible?
and would that apply to Mike Pilavachi?
I rest my case….
It’s certainly not infallible. I’ve known some who probably should never have been ordained… Might that not apply to Bishops also?
Im sorry to have made you shudder Susanna!. My point was that we need all the ordinands coming forward if we are to have a future in the Church of England even those we may fundamentally disagree with. There have been and will be those of every flavour in the Church of England who abuse their position. Obviously it is part of the responsibility of those selecting and training our ordinands to identify those who have that potential. Mike Pilavachi is the latest but in my own geographical area those from a very different part of the church have been… Read more »
Thank you, what a wise – and very Anglican – comment.
“be curious, be present, and reimagine”. Thank you, Simon. It’s exactly the point I was trying to make in my original post. Most of us, liberal as much as conservative, prefer the comfort of our own silo. But as the ABC’s Difference Course suggests, to reimagine we first need to be present. The Oxford 5 were not present – a potential loss to the whole body of Christ.
I may be misunderstanding you here. But I do not see that encouraging and valuing an ordinand in their vocation must be based on the assumption their vetting process was infallible.
David, I probably wasn’t terribly clear . My anxiety is that that in a time of shortage vetting becomes less rigorous than it should, or that those undergoing training are ‘nodded through’ rather than monitored properly. It was also not a comment on the supply of conservative or liberal candidates but a purely safeguarding one. With the increase of vetting in so many professions teaching and the church are now particularly tempting openings for those seeking access to young people for the wrong reasons, so I would suggest that more rather than less care probably needs to be taken
In the time of St Augustine, their stance would have been called Montanism.
Charismatic evangelicals are montanists, by any definition of the term.
Charismatic evangelicals do not put prophesy above scripture, so relax. Prophesy encourages and invigorates the church to prevent it becoming dry and institutionalised. That is why charismatic churches are growing.
Bristol Cathedral has a prophetic ministry which addresses issues of climate change, community relations, the legacy of chattel slavery and other matters which arise out of the life of our diverse city and it is a growing community. It’s not, however, charismatic in the conventionally understood meaning of that word.
Someone writing in the Baptist Times many years ago remarked that it was easaier to get an agreed, ‘prophetic’ statement on climate change, arms reduction or other political issues than it was about essential, explicitly Christian doctrines. And someone else once said there was more true prophesy in the Daily Mirror than most pulpits! It all depends on what you mean by prophesy….. Someone sent me an article by a Muslim prophetess, Nonie Darwish today, and if she’s right, her view of our future is horrifying. We don’t hear anything like that from the Christian camp – save from folks… Read more »
Can I just point out (the confusion has appeared several times in comments above) that ‘prophecy’ is the noun (the name of the phenomenon) and ‘prophesy’ is the verb (‘she began to prophesy’).
These ordinations have taken place under the authority of the Diocesan…the Bishop of Oxford ..so surely questions about them should be addressed to him ?
And will be Bishop of Oxford be reprimanded by the centre in a similar manner to the Bishop of Chelmsford (and that for merely speaking her mind)?
You mean a private message? I do hope they have regular conversations… Seriously though they may say “it could be more helpful if you encourage them to attend your service, as we haven’t set up alternative Episcopal provision in the same way we have for those who don’t accept female bishops”. But as it’s all new, not really sure what else could be done in the timeframe. Neither asking them to change their beliefs (which had been ‘more acceptable’ a few years ago as others have pointed out) or asking to move to another diocese feels to me like it… Read more »
Diocesan bishops regularly delegate ordinations to other bishops. What is there to reprimand?
Diocesans as far as I’m aware only delegate ordinations to their suffragan/assistant bishops, who then act as the diocesan’s proxies. The point being that this is not done to accommodate theological differences. The exception of course is the provision mandated by Synod for those unable to accept female priests and bishops.
If the ‘unable to accept’ language is appropriate for those objecting to women’s ordination, why is it not appropriate for those objecting to same-sex marriage?
Because making provision for the former is the will of the Church as expressed in General Synod?
How many people delegate their theology, conscience, and integrity to General Synod?
“Certainly, if I am obliged to bring religion into after-dinner toasts, I shall drink – to the Pope, if you please – still, to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards.” A quote that has been used to justify all kinds of self-indulgent nonsense. Newman, of course, meant the informed conscience. So far, so good! Yet I suspect Newman would have asked what you mean by “their theology.” The crux of Mark Vasey-Saunders piece is that theology is best learnt in community, for all the vulnerability that exposes us to: “Part of any educational process is to unlearn some of… Read more »
The evangelical ordinands will have learned their theology in community – first in their home churches, then in the (presumably evangelical) theological colleges or courses they attended. Would you be willing to change your theology simply because General Synod declared to be true something which you believed to be false? And would you then alter your behaviour accordingly? The history of women’s ordination suggests that very few people do that. If opposed to women’s ordination, many demand alternative episcopal oversight and separate Maundy Thursday services, they continue to refuse to acknowledge the validity of women’s orders, they don’t acknowledge their… Read more »
Janet, if you read my response to Simon Eyre you might find that you’re pushing at an open door.
Those who vote people on to GS, including those who don’t use their vote.
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your point.
My point is that we get the GS we deserve. Conservatives are focused, organised and disciplined in a way others are not. The result is a Synod which is unrepresentative of the C of E.
Allan, surely a phone call from you to Steve Croft could easily clarify the situation?
I’m not aware of any limitation as to which bishops a diocesan might invite to ordain within their diocese. It seems to me that the key thing here is that +Oxon has sought to implement a canonical arrangement, which must be preferable to the uncanonical and highly irregular commissioning that took place at Bishopgate.
It is preposterous that the Bishop of Oxford isn’t welcome at the communion ‘table’ at St Ebba’s Oxford because the gay vicar regards same-sex attracted people having desires emanating from a mythical ‘Fall’. The bishop is more sympathetic to gay people than the vicar is to himself. It can’t be easy to dislike oneself so much that a self-imposed rule of celibacy is commended by a gay man to all other gay people. No wonder the Church is in decline when some Christians hate, not just others, but hate themselves as well.
I certainly agree with your first statement. If we keep calling ourselves Anglican – that should mean more than “those methodists/baptists/free-church/etc people over there are probably Christians in some sense” – and one outworking should be the communion cup. However the final point I think is hyperbole “No wonder the Church is in decline when some ….” I think this presupposes that large numbers of people outside the church both care or understand what’s going on inside. There are Christian churches who happily marry/bless gay couples – they do not appear to be bursting at the seams. The Church of… Read more »
It is true that embracing LGBT marriage does not seem to have led to numerical attendance growth in those churches that have done it. But it’s impossible to say what effect, if any, or none, the change has had- I mean it’s not exactly been a controlled study has it? It is very likely as you imply (I hope I’m not misreading) that a majority of people in the West have major problems- possibly for the first time in history- with the very premise of the religious dimension. I think in the UK at least, it is increasingly the case… Read more »
Controlled studies are impossible in actual, granular historical situations, aren’t they? But that doesn’t prevent a tentative, always corrigible historical enquiry being performed, hypotheses constructed and ideas tested against evidence. It’s argued, e.g. by Ian Paul, that there is demonstrable evidence that the churches that are growing currently, tend to have a conservative theology. While those that have embraced what he would criticise as ‘progressive’ agendas – The US Episcopal Church, the Church of Scotland, the English Methodists – have experienced decline. Cause and effect, or correlation? I don’t know. Nor does church growth prove rectitude, surely. But there’s a… Read more »
Whatever Ian Paul argues, the evidence is not demonstrable and as you rightly state, we do not, cannot know what is correlation and what is causation. As I said, we’re in the realms of guesswork, which just invites in our own biases (e.g. conservative, Ian Paul; progressive, mine). I’m of the opinion that the decline of religion in the West has precious little to do with what churches are or are not doing, how they are doing or not doing mission or treating minorities, and much more to do with a major shift in the zeitgeist, which started far back… Read more »
The decline of religion in the West can be, I think, largely chalked up to the influence of science education. One hundred years ago, the average person got very little in the way of a scientific education–beyond the basics of understanding the temperature scales, for instance. Today, an adult without a grounding in science is at a great disadvantage in employment (even in the field of manual labor).
That has meant when religion is at odds with science (as in LGBT issues) religion loses the argument, especially for people born since the end of the baby boom.
I want to reinforce the conclusion Fr Andrew arrives at: “Growth is not the be all and end all of church, never was, never will be. Including LGBT people fully in the life of the Church is the right thing to do whether it leads to growth, quicker decline or has no effect at all.” “Similarly, unity is not the be all and the end all of church, never was and never will be. Including LGBT people fully in the life of the Church is the right thing to do.” This saves me having to read again the comments on… Read more »
“Growth is not the be all and end of church.” Growth is vital for the church. Numerical growth so that congregations do not age. Spiritual growth so that Christians mature in their faith. So that new churches are started amongst all the new housing. So that the great commission is fulfilled. That said, clever man made strategies do not always result in growth. It’s the Holy Spirit working in people’s hearts, it’s the faithful preaching of God’s word, its lives lived out for Christ that are crucial.
Bob, numerical growth so that congregations do not age is a failing objective in, I suspect, the majority of congregations – certainly the majority of congregations in my area. Spiritual growth is vital, but the quality of growth, growth in what and towards what, are questions not being asked, let alone explored, and certainly not being rooted in the teachings and life of Jesus. So fulfilling the great commission is to be fulfilled? For me, a literal, monochrome understanding of the great commission (or, as people think of it, “The Great Commission”, carries great dangers with it, related to Christian… Read more »
Growing a congregation may or may not be the be all and end all of a church’s life. However, if we are at all interested in following Jesus, then spreading the gospel and making disciples is an integral part of that.
Tim, I am a follower of Jesus and I am deeply alarmed by many of the teachings of today’s Church. They may or may not be “Biblical” teachings or “Pauline” or from the Gospel versions of Jesus, and quite possibly the actual teachings of Jesus, but today’s Church is in chaos as a result of its inability to evolve it understanding of the essence of what you or I or anyone might understanding of Jesus in the light of the development of our knowledge of the Biblical texts. I’m reading Diarmaid MacCulloch’s Lower Than The Angels at the moment. Reading… Read more »
Whilst the ordination issue in Oxford is important, it would be a pity not to pay attention to the Surviving Church articles. There are clear safeguarding concerns there, which have been reported to the bishop, and no action appears to be in hand. Again it is the bishop of Oxford.
Thank- you Simon for moving onto this- I was wondering whether I felt strong enough to comment . I had missed the publication of the Safer Churches project last year and was horrified by Stephen Parsons’s articles. In any other walk of life the activities of these churches would be illegal. It will come as a tremendous shock to most young people whose schools’ PHSE lessons will have been based on the equality laws of this country. That this is taking place within our Established church- and is doubtless a matter of pride for the homophobics responsible- is nothing short… Read more »
As another angle – – I think it’s easy to point to many things that fall under the banner of conversion therapy and describe it as abuse. But – – on the flip side. What practice could/should be commended that is not seen as abuse? I think it’s a statement of fact that a large number of Anglicans (and of other Christian branches) hold a belief that sex outside of marriage (hetero) is a sin, and that many people are tempted to sin – – possibly by a temptation for gay-sex, but for many a temptation to any out-of-marriage sex… Read more »
You seem to be very concerned about other people’s sex lives. Is it not better to be less nosey and prurient?
I think the same logic could be applied to anything that someone may want to come to confession for. I picked sexuality because that is the topic of discussion. I think you are advocating a “well they can come to confession – but never challenge people on a sin, be it sexual or otherwise – let God do that”. I can see the logic but it feels at odds with some of the bold statements of the Bible. (not just about sex – – but e.g. idolatry or gossip or etc) – there does seem to be a strong message… Read more »
The purpose of Confession is not to order people to stop doing naughty things, but to assure the penitent of God’s unconditional love for them and to lift the burden of transgression through absolution. You seem to have an odd view of priestly ministry. It doesn’t exist to tell people off.
Come on now, we can do better in our discourse.
I could take the bait and say I think you have an odd view on Christian discipleship if forgiveness is only about a ticket into heaven rather than a call to repent and turn away from sin and try to live in future more aligned to God’s will.
As Jesus said to the women “go and sin no more”
He also condemned sinful behaviour at other times….
But I don’t actually think you have a cheap view of salvation, you’re just clearly not wanting to engage on this topic…
I’m not sure how you think I’m discussing a “ticket into heaven”. My contention is that conservatives like yourself have become obsessed with sexual morality which has dominated CofE debate for decades. Jesus telling gay people to “sin no more” is equated with a call to celibacy and has become a salvation issue. That has turned the church into a puritanical sect which is ugly and unwelcoming.
‘I’m not sure how you think I’m discussing a “ticket into heaven”.’ That should be an obvious straw man you’d walked yourself into. I did then say – – “But I don’t actually think…” My point was you were being very clear on talking about forgiveness from God – but saying nothing about living a call to holiness and even seemingly resistant to the teaching of it. I have been trying to engage in a debate in good faith, but you don’t seem to want to engage with the idea that Christianity might actually have something to teach people about… Read more »
Your conservative credentials have shown in everything you’ve written. Your opposition to gay marriage is also obvious.
I have not managed to read all of the article – but thank you for raising it as important. I do want to comment that I do feel it’s a tad confusing to me why people talk about a “secrecy of theology” regarding LGBT in some churches. Surely the theology is very clear from an official line. We know that a lot of people dissent from it – either to a lesser or greater extent (I count myself amongst the lesser dissent); but surely one should assume the official position until proven(or claimed) otherwise? Let me say again – –… Read more »
Asking for a friend, but do people know how to find out what the official line actually is? For the Catholic Church there is the Catechism. An Anglican Catechism (2001), by Edward Norman, doesn’t have an equivalent status! Several Anglican teachings vanished, temporarily at least, when the C of E website was reorganised a few years ago. And there are many vicars who if asked would present you with what is no more than “Christianity – a personal view”.
Tim, If there was a single “official line” on any issue in the Church of England then there would not be a problem. But one of the strengths of the Church of England is that a diversity of views is allowed. For example it is acceptable to believe either that women should or should not be priests or bishops. Similarly, in the current position where LGBTQIA issues are being debated, it is perfectly acceptable to be a priest or bishop either against or in favour of gay marriage, and to argue the point either way. In my home city of… Read more »
Surely it is important to keep in mind that a statement like “one of the strengths of the Church of England is that a diversity of views is allowed” is, strictly speaking, an opinion. The Church of England knew no such idea at its conception. The Elizabethan Settlement is itself far from this wide-reaching opinion. An equally valid opinion is “one of the inherent weaknesses of the Church of England is that over time, a diversity of views became something like its own dogma.” Held by some, and rejected by others. That is far closer to the actual reality of… Read more »
How are young people who have no church background going to know what is the official line of the C of E, or of any church? They will naturally assume that equality law applies in church, as it does in their educational institution and everywhere else.
I think most young people still think that churches have something to do with God and maybe offers some answers to the messed up world they see around them. Well let’s hope.
Adrian, in my experience many of the young men and women I talk to are very interested in ideas around God and spirituality and how to lead a good life. Many explore ideas and read extensively around religion and spirituality, and are interested in Christian ideas and the Bible. But these same young men and women tend to discuss and explore these ideas in online blogs and webinars, or in philosophy clubs. In their experience they will not find what they are looking for by going through the doors of a church, where the level of debate and discussion and… Read more »
And in the mosque, Janet?
The blog is specifically about students going to churches, unaware of their stance in LGBT matters.
I’m not sure how many students without any religious background will be aware of Muslim (or Jewish, Buddhist, HIndu, etc) doctrine and attitudes re homosexuality. But it would be a fair assumption that England’s official, established church would obey equality law.
‘They will naturally assume that equality law applies in church, as it does in their educational institution and everywhere else’. Sorry Janet, I misunderstood the import of your ‘everywhere else’. I do think plenty of undergraduates will be aware of Muslim attitudes to homosexuality, though. Or perhaps I am overestimating the scope of the intelligence and knowledge-base of contemporary students. Maybe the existence of ‘Queers for Palestine’ suggests that’s quite possible. I think some thinking about ‘Equality Law’ and the role of the State is helpful here. Just because the State enshrines an ideology in law, must any or every… Read more »
The point being made is simply that where churches believe same-sex relationships to be sinful, they put something on their websites to the effect that marriage is only and always between a man and a woman. This, as the two blogs make clear, is to avoid students finding out only when they have already settled in and made relationships, with all the psychological and social pressure that entails – not to mention the risk of being ‘exorcised’ of their gayness. The writers are not saying that every church must agree that same sex relationships are good.
I feel people and churches should have the right to present their beliefs in the way that they feel is comfortable and/or helpful. I would imagine that these churches would sincerely believe that belief in Jesus’ Love and the trinity are far more important things to signpost than marriage. Indeed another commentator criticises the obsession with sex that some people have – so why would they want to refer to sex on their websites? Also should people only join a church if they agree with all of the beliefs – that might make it harder for any of our churches… Read more »
The Surviving Church articles identify safeguarding concerns at a number of churches in Oxford, but a recent independent review of safeguarding in the Oxford diocese gave it a clean bill of health. BBC News reported last month that: An independent review into the safeguarding work at a Church of England diocese has praised it as “exceptionally well-led”.The audit into the practices of the Diocese of Oxford was conducted in June, with the results published this week.Independent industry experts Ineqe Safeguarding Group conducted the review.It is part of a national programme, commissioned by the Archbishop’s Council, to review safeguarding at each… Read more »
I wonder what the review methodology was. Did they simply chat to safeguarding staff and look at the paperwork and systems, or did they make effective effort to go out into the community to get feedback from people with concerns?
How would the young students mentioned in the Safe Churches reports (last years report is well worth reading) have known about the safeguarding review and had a chance to feed their experience in to the system?
One other point. It is worth bearing in mind that Oxford is not exclusively C of E, and so much discussion on the TA blog is through an exclusively Anglican lens. The report assesses LGBTQIA+ safety in ALL the churches in Oxford, many of which are independent charismatic, as well as Baptist and URC. Such churches would be outside the Oxford Diocesan Safeguarding system. Please do read the report. It seem to be a sensible approach to a real problem; honest about the evidence sources; and asks for feedback to correct incorrect allegations. https://www.oulgbtq.org/uploads/1/1/0/3/110317091/oxford-safe-churches-report.pdf Having said that, the report is… Read more »
You can find the INEQE report on the diocese website.which explains their methodology: • Over 250 documents being collated and analysed prior to the Audit’s fieldwork. • A range of interviews with Church officers (staff and volunteers), external partners, victims and survivors and other stakeholders. • 335 anonymous survey responses which gathered input from victims and survivors, children and young people as well as those worshipping and / or working within the Diocese of Oxford. • Six focus groups. • A confidential contact form accessible via a dedicated webpage.• In total, the Audit undertook 30 separate engagement sessions reaching 82 people. … Read more »
Thanks Maude, That is incredibly helpful. I have a lot of sympathy for the Safe Churches Project. They did not get everything right but they have raised awareness and started a conversation which can only be helpful. Sadly it seems that people within the Oxford diocese do not want to invite the safe Churches project to join that conversation. Last year the project received a bit of pushback, on this site and elsewhere, which I think was regrettable and almost amounted to clericalism. I wonder if your “swept under the carpet” question is simply because people are embarrassed about the… Read more »
Thanks Simon. Diocesan officials are naturally keen to blow their own trumpet after the publication of the INEQE report which found that safeguarding systems, policies and procedures are very good overall. It notes that survivors of abuse can in all cases report their concerns safely. But it is surprising that the Oxford Safe Churches Project is not named specifically. You would not expect to find qualitative data about individual cases in a report for publication, but you might have found evidence of the scale of the problem expressed quantitavely, and information about how survivors of the alleged abuse can seek… Read more »
And yet, as I understand, Dominic Grieves’ proposals for the reform of Christ Church, Oxford retain the anomaly, unparalleled elsewhere in the Church of England, that the Diocesan Bishop is not the Ordinary in ‘his’ Cathedral.
How difficult would it be for the Diocese of Oxford to abandon Christ Church?
Very difficult, and very unlikely, I suggest. This has all been discussed previously at length on TA. Other parties involved include the Crown (the present Visitor of both Cathedral and College), HM Privy Council, the University and Parliament.
That’s interesting, Rowland, because INEQE have been tasked with conducting an independent safeguarding audit of Church of England dioceses AND cathedrals. So who is doing an audit of safeguarding at Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford?
It is stated that this project is expected to take four years. Clearly Christ Church hasn’t been reached yet. The answer to your question will be interesting when it happens. INEQE ‘Lead Auditor’ Jim Gamble states that their brief extends to “42 Dioceses, 42 Cathdrals and 2 Palaces”. That still leaves some scope for doubt: Leeds Diocese, for example, has three cathedrals.
However, on that timescale, I suppose that it is possible that Christ Church might have new Statutes. Again, a case of ‘watch this space’.
Somewhat embarrassingly, I overlooked that the safeguarding audit of Oxford Diocese had already taken place. Here is a link to Law and Religion UK:
https://lawandreligionuk.com/2024/09/25/independent-safeguarding-audit-diocese-of-oxford/
However the report states that the audit did not extend to Christ Church Cathedral “since it is a ‘Royal Peculiar’”. Unfortunately that is not correct: properly it is a ‘non-Royal Peculiar’ (of which there are numerous other examples), albeit that Christ Church is “a Royal Foundation of King Henry VIII”, a confusing state of affairs which has also figured at great length in comments on TA.
Thanks Rowland. Even if it is a non-Royal peculiar, it is surely anomalous that it is excluded from the audit when its remit expressly covers dioceses, cathedrals and palaces.
It is certainly an anomaly that someone told INEQE that the Cathedral is a Royal Peculiar. In paragraph 1.1, the report does state that the Cathedral has been the subject of a separate audit (but no details by whom) “which is pending publication”.