Press release from 10 Downing Street. Further information from the Birmingham and Guildford diocesan websites.
The King has approved the nomination of The Reverend Canon Esther Tamisa Prior, Vicar of St John the Baptist Egham and Honorary Canon at Guildford Cathedral, for appointment as Suffragan Bishop of Aston in the Diocese of Birmingham.
From: Prime Minister’s Office, 10 Downing Street
Published 12 December 2024The King has approved the nomination of The Reverend Canon Esther Tamisa Prior, Vicar of St John the Baptist Egham and Honorary Canon at Guildford Cathedral, for appointment as Suffragan Bishop of Aston in the Diocese of Birmingham, in succession to The Right Reverend Anne Hollinghurst following her resignation and appointment as Principal of the Queens Foundation.
Background
Esther was educated at the University of Zimbabwe and trained for ministry at Trinity College, Bristol. She was ordained priest in 2004 and served her title at Redland Parish Church in the Diocese of Bristol, and St John’s, Deptford, in the Diocese of Southwark.
In 2008, Esther was appointed Associate Minister at St Matthew’s, Borstal, additionally serving as Chaplain at Blackheath Bluecoat Church of England School until 2009 and as Prison Chaplain for Cookham Wood from 2010. Esther was appointed Team Vicar at St John, Cove, in the Diocese of Guildford, in 2011 and in 2018 took up her current role as Vicar of St John the Baptist, Egham.
Esther is married to Matt, who is also ordained, and they have two teenaged children.
Esther Prior is currently a member of the CNC, so she will presumably become ineligible to take part as a central member, elected by the House of Clergy.
Who is the other member of her pair?
It’s Lis Goddard. That makes four ‘pairs’ down to one member. And no provision in the current system for those who leave or become ineligible to be replaced.
Yes. At the date she ceases to be a General Synod member she was also cease to be a central member of the CNC. But she would continue with a vacancy still in process where she is the nominated member of the ‘pair.’
There was one Bishop of Aston who was descended from Charles Dickens (great-great grandson), perhaps an example of what Arthur Conan Doyle called ‘art in the blood’. A further example, doubtless already known to most readers of TA, is this. Ralph Vaughan Williams was the great-nephew of Charles Darwin.
“The Bible says that God made the world in six days. Great Uncle Charles thinks it took longer: but we need not worry about it, for it is equally wonderful either way”
Surprise surprise! An evangelical.
Surprise, surprise, a sister in Christ!
Sweet!
As are well over 70% of ordinands.
I know. It’s totally depressing. The final nail in the CofE coffin.
Is anyone going to call this post out as sexist and bigoted? Shame on you , Sir. – the basis that 70% of ordinands are women is the nail in the coffin of the church? or, look at it another way…. to paraphrase the German Marian Christmas hymn, are roses springing up?
Nonsense. 70 per cent of ordinands are evangelicals. How is that sexist?
I think over 70% of ordinands are *Evangelical* is the point being responded to. Not female….
Let’s hope they realise 70% of people in the pews aren’t evangelicals.
If you look at suffragan bishops appointed over the last five years you will find a fairly even balance across all traditions. Most Christians are not easily described by a simple one or two word tradition label, as if the church consists of clones with either “evangelical”, “liberal” or “anglo-catholic” stamps on them. Human beings are much more complex and interesting than that. I wish Esther well in her new role.
She has an interesting variety of background and experience, including education in Zimbabwe. This is encouraging. But why no photo?
There’s a picture on the linked Birmingham page.
The photo didn’t come up on my iPad. That’s why I raised the question.
A tenuous link is that a Bishop of Mashonaland was consecrated in the Anglican Cathedral in Birmingham on St Peter’s Day 1968. His name was Paul Burrough. The chief consecrator was the Archbishop of Central Africa, and the co-consecrators included the Bishops of Malawi and Matabeleland. The Bishop of Birmingham, who had himself been consecrated in the Far East, also took part as did the Bishop of Lancaster (amongst others).
The 1968 Lambeth Conference began on the 25th July. Humanae Vitae is also dated 25th July 1968.
Anselm Genders (later Bishop of Bermuda) was Archdeacon of Manicaland and a Brummie so that tenuously squares the circle!
Thank you. I remember Anselm.
so do I at Mirfield nicnamed ‘jackboot Genders’
He was always very polite and gentlemanly. I seem to recall that he liked a Yorkie Bar as a snack.
You all may wish to have a look at the church website: https://stjohnsegham.com/
I was interested in the services – I thought there was a lack of Bible readings and creeds – what think ye all?
It bears no resemblance to the Church of England, but is typical of today’s smiling non-denominational sect since Mr Welby and his HTB ilk came to power.
In the LLF debate of Nov 23 she called for “formal, structural provision “…. so unless there’s been a change of heart and mind is this another “conservative “ appointment?
Alongside +Wolverhampton … is there an attempt to hold “conservative “ evangelicals within current structures … without resorting to Bishopsgate type provision?
Yes
Quite.Neither Wolverhampton nor Aston are stale white males …so they are to some extent “ beyond criticism “by the usual suspects.Clever plan !
Whether it will prevent further fragmentation we shall see
A couple of years ago I went to a service remembering a very dear friend. Her remains had been cremated at a family service earlier in the day. The Victorian parish church had been changed beyond all recognition from the time I lived nearby, with strings of lights and a glitter ball hanging up- the entire access seemed now to be North /South. One of the friends I was with is Church Warden in a nearby parish where the liturgy used would be highly familiar to Rev David H. (and me). We had arrived fairly early and my friend became… Read more »
“Bears no resemblance to the Church of England”. Would you be so kind as to describe what the Church of England looks like so that I will know it when I see it. My parish church is a 1960’s building with no bells or spire or pipe organ, my next nearest church has bells, two towers and it’s original pipe organ and further away is a church with bells, spire, organ, robed choir. Which is the Church of England?
Architecture isn’t the point. What takes place inside is meant to be Anglican liturgy.
What takes place inside each is worship. Its format may not suit you nor me. The first church is an increasingly charismatic LEP of 150, the second a distinctly evangelical church of 500, and the third a high church of 100. In each Christ is worshipped.
Jolly good but Christ is worshipped in your local Roman Catholic church and at the Elim. They do not claim to be Anglican.
Precisely.
The one furthest away from you. Next question?
Why?
It’s the one like mine. And I’m the real C of E.
We need a laughing face emoji on TA.
It’s probably the only one where anyone even tries to comply with Canons B12 and C26.
I don’t think that’s true. My experience is that evangelical ministers take B12 and C26 seriously.
“Non-denominational” is an interesting attribute. There’s a use of the term in which the CofE is just one denomination among many others, one defined (in part) by its liturgy. But there’s also a sense in which Methodists, Baptists, etc are denominations, but the CofE is not, it’s the default expression of the one holy Catholic and apostolic church in these shores (at least the English parts of these shores, and sweeping the awkward existence of the RCs under the carpet for the moment). From that perspective, the specific liturgy we use is not of the essence, and “non-denominational” becomes an… Read more »
Actually it is generally within Common Worship rules apart from the two things I mentioned – which are pretty crucial! What is it with evangelical churches that don’t like reading the Bible in worship?
There are many evangelicals who would wholeheartedly join you in asking that question.
Here is an article by an Australian Anglican Evangelical challenging evangelicals to read more scripture: http://thebriefing.com.au/2011/03/devoted-to-the-public-reading-of-scripture/
This Australian is from Sydney Diocese which bears only a passing resemblance to Anglicanism.
I wrote such an article myself in the CEN about 10 years ago – I am looking at republishing it imminently.
The two main services last Sunday morning, one of them Holy Communion, seem to each have just a single verse of bible reading (John 8.12 in both cases) which does not seem to relate to any lectionary provision. And we get told that these are bible-believing churches (though to be fair, it doesn’t seem to say that here.) The Eucharistic Prayer is Prayer One of the Additional Eucharistic Prayers, which are specifically “for occasions such as a school Eucharist, not for use on a weekly basis at the main celebration of Holy Communion in the parish church”. But at least… Read more »
“The two main services last Sunday morning, one of them Holy Communion, seem to each have just a single verse of bible reading (John 8.12 in both cases) which does not seem to relate to any lectionary provision. And we get told that these are bible-believing churches (though to be fair, it doesn’t seem to say that here.)” I remember going with a friend to a non-Anglican, “evangelical,” “Bible-believing” church several years ago. At this church, like the one you mention, there was only one verse of Scripture read during the service. Being accustomed hearing to three Bible lessons, plus… Read more »
Hang on a minute! You have to be careful what you share… John 8 12 fits in very nicely with Christmas and stars and things, and the Sunday school children ( if you have them) can draw nice lighthouses to give their mummies after service.
But there really aren’t all that many real ‘clobber texts’ out there
So if you read too much Bible it will become clear that most of it isn’t rants against sexual activity and naughty thoughts . And you don’t want your congregation to realise that do you??
Spot on, Susanna!
Sounds like her services will be more popular than the overlong affairs at many others. Good experience for a bishop in a church struggling to retain worshippers.
It is worth remembering that Lectionary provision in the Church of England is very permissive. Depending on whether or not the main service is a Eucharist, churches are at liberty to follow whatever lectionary provision they want for most of the year, except for clearly defined periods around the major festivals. This has been the case for many years. In terms of weekday lectionary provision, whilst there is a Common Worship weekday lectionary, it is not mandatory and churches have complete freedom to use this or other lectionary provision, including LOTH. Personally I’ve always found that the weekday lectionary used… Read more »
Up to a point Lord Copper, up to a point. One of the services commented on was a Communion service on a Sunday in Advent. From Advent Sunday to Candlemas and from Ash Wednesday to Trinity Sunday “the readings shall come from an authorized lectionary”. No ifs, no buts. During the rest of the year “authorized lectionary provision remains the norm but, after due consultation with the Parochial Church Council, the minister may, from time to time, [my emphasis] depart from the lectionary provision for pastoral reasons or preaching or teaching purposes”. This rule explicitly applies to both the Sunday… Read more »
Dear Simon – of course. I wasn’t intending to comment on that specific service but on the more general lectionary freedoms that are permitted. N
Simon, are you sure that a change from the lectionary would count as being of ‘substantial importance’ under Canon B5 ? If not, it’s permissible. Candidly – and I find this usually does not compute with people who love their traditional and/ or mainstream Anglican liturgy – Canon B5 allows a vast amount of variation in liturgy, since ‘substantial importance’ is essentially doctrinal rather than liturgical – if it’s Trinitarian, it’s allowed. To put it another way, many Trad Anglo catholic churches use the Roman Mass as their weekly liturgy, with the full knowledge of their bishop. If they are… Read more »
The rules on the lectionary are quite clear, and (for those who follow the canons) binding, and therefore almost certainly not subject to the provisions of B5 to vary them. (However, I suspect no-one is going to test this to establish case law!)
I don’t think the Roman rite should be used, nor worship which omits or alters key parts of the liturgy but alas as far as I can see no archdeacon/ bishop wants to do anything about it. Hence continuing parochial fragmentation which I think feeds decline. Liturgy is our public face. In some places when visiting you have no idea what to expect and as Charles Read has commented many clergy have weak knowledge of liturgy and are poor practitioners when attempting to implement it alas.The sense of a recognisable “Anglican ” liturgical identity across the traditions which I grew… Read more »
More concerning to me was the fact that (at the Holy Communion service), despite there being a priest present, the deacon gave the blessing.
Lucky it wasn’t one of the worshipper leader’s kids!
On a point of pedantry, the deacon asked the Lord to bless those present: the Lord gave the blessing. Unless you believe that the Lord is more likely to bless a congregation if a priest rather than a deacon asks, then it’s quite irrelevant.
And, while it might be a pedantic point, I think it is an important one because we should never forget that the priest (or deacon) does nothing, nothing at all, in a service: it is all God. We must never forget that.
If the priest does “nothing” ordination must mean nothing.
Correct. Which is why the 39 Articles say that ordination isn’t a sacrament. The Catholics probably disagree, but in the Church of England ordination isn’t a sacrament.
Why would anyone wish to be a priest if it means nothing?
Actually Article XXV does not say that ordination isn’t a sacrament. It says ‘Those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not like nature of Sacraments with Baptism, and the Lord’s Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.’ It thus leaves open the possibility that there are two kinds of… Read more »
I don’t think that sort of protestant polemic helps in a church which with all its faults is, at its best, inclusive.
I’m content to revise my gripe to the Deacon *saying* the blessing if we’re stooping to that level of pedantry! The Common Worship notes for a service of Holy Communion state: “The unity of the liturgy is served by the ministry of the president, who in presiding over the whole service holds word and sacrament together and draws the congregation into a worshipping community. The president at Holy Communion (who, in accordance with the provisions of Canon B 12 ‘Of the Ministry of the Holy Communion’, must have been episcopally ordained priest) expresses this ministry by saying the opening Greeting,… Read more »
That’s a gripe then about not following church order, not theology. There are some here certainly who will see that as a big deal but, if the presiding priest feels that someone else is best leading certain elements on the day, shouldn’t she decide that? For instance, if a priest is feeling unwell would it be so wrong of them to delegate things like saying the blessing? If so, then the only alternative you leave them is not participating at all. I am pretty sure most in the congregation wouldn’t want that. I have said elsewhere on this thread, there’s… Read more »
I don’t see how that pattern holds things together. The effect is actually quite bitty – especially in churches with only one microphone where people have to keep changing places with each other to get to it.
And theologically, how can we expect lay people to be confident in evangelism, telling people of God’s forgiveness of sins, when we don’t allow them to pronounce the absolution?
The TEC BCP does permit a lay person to pronounce absolution in modified form at morning and evening prayer.
After the confession, the BCP says:
The Priest alone stands and says
Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins
through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all
goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in
eternal life. Amen.
It then provides:
A deacon or lay person using the preceding form remains kneeling, and substitutes “us” for “you” and “our” for “your.”
(TEC BCP, pp.80, 117)
And the English BCP and also the rubrics of Common Worship say something very similar. The deacon in the service at Egham just about complies with this in saying the Blessing at the end of the service. Although she says the initial words saying “you”, she concludes with “the blessing … be with us …”. Fair enough. (Whether the deacon should be saying the blessing is another matter, as the rubric reserves that to the president; but except for leading the eucharistic prayer they have not worried about that rubric throughout the service, so they are at least being consistent… Read more »
Yes, in the BCP the absolution takes the form ‘Almighty God… he pardoneth and absolveth…’. When I trained, in the 80s, we were taught that as deacons we could either pronounce the absolution in BCP form, or as Dr. Primrose describes above.
You were taught wrongly. In the Offices the rubric states “The Absolution or Remission of sins to be pronounced by the Priest alone, standing; the people still kneeling.”
In the service of Holy Communion the rubric is “Then shall the Priest (or the Bishop, being present) stand up and, turning himself to the people, pronounce this Absolution”
The rubrics of the BCP (as currently amended) say, “If no priest be present the person saying the Service shall read the Collect for the Twenty-First Sunday after Trinity, that person and the people still kneeling.”
The Collect for Trinity 21 is:
“Grant, we beseech thee, merciful Lord, to thy faithful people pardon and peace; that they may be cleansed from all their sins, and serve thee with a quiet mind; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.”
The rubric in which prayer book? At the time we were using the ASB.
The Book of Common Prayer.
I have noticed Simon from my Anglican past, the tendency in Evangelical Anglican Churches when the Eucharist is celebrated to free wheel the Liturgy and they will always omit saying or singing the Agnus Dei, because they do not want Jesus the Lamb of God being associated with the Eucharistic Elements on the Altar or the Communion Table as Evangelicals prefer to call it. Jonathan
Both Common Worship and BCP are very insistent that it is a table, not an altar. BCP has 16 references in the Holy Communion Service to “table”, none to “altar”. CW has 45 references to “table” and one to “altar”; but it is explicitly the “altar of the cross” not of the church building.
On this point Evangelicals are much more in step with CofE liturgy than those who talk about an altar.
Personally, I have found Evangelicals are quite keen to talk about Jesus as the Lamb of God.
Not many brides being married refer to walking down the aisle to the table.
Well, that settles the canonical terminology!
I’m always happy to explain things.
The question was about who is closest to CofE liturgy; and who is free-wheeling.
Interesting Paul, thank you. That’s something I want to look into.
Genuine question. Do you think it depends on context so that for Communion it is a table but an altar when presenting the Offerings?
In my understanding BCP views the offering as an outworking of Christian love for the poor of the parish (which is what it expects the money to be used for) not a sacrificial offering to be placed on an altar.
A lot of money was spent removing altars and purchasing tables as our liturgy was being composed; I don’t believe that those responsible for BCP thought there was cause for an altar in a church.
The BCP is a compilation across a hundred years, from its first “edition” in 1549 through the second Edwardine Book of 1552, then the Elizabethan restoration and Jacobean minor revision to the Caroline restoration Book of 1662. There was no single mind across this history, and different bishops and archbishops brought different nuances and understandings. Laud’s actions as archbishop, for example, were somewhat different from Cranmer’s, but certainly had their effect on the English Church down the centuries. In addition there were with some regularity the coronations of various monarchs, a service which from the first English version of July… Read more »
Never mind the reactions from the catholic end of the CofE, how would that former Bishop of Aston Colin Buchanan react to these liturgies!?
One of my recollections of Colin Buchanan is his quip that the rules of A Service of the Word are basically that it must have a beginning, a middle, and an end — and they must come in that order.
Colin Buchanan quit Aston and became Vicar of Gillingham and an assistant bishop in Rochester. In that role he was elected to the House of Bishops in GS, and became the first parish incumbent to enter the House of Bishops. I don’t know whether that has happened since. Later of course he became Bishop of Woolwich.
David Hope became Vicar of Ilkley after he retired from York.
Yes, he did. But I don’t think he remained in the HoB.
Sorry I think I misread what yo’d written as referring to the House of Lords. I think there have been a number of bishops who have returned to parish ministry. Mowbray O’Rourke, the Rector of Blakeney and formerly Bishop of Accra, for example.
Thank you. It was fairly common for bishops having returned from overseas dioceses to take a parish and become an assistant bishop. I will give one example, Guy Marshall, who having been Bishop in (not of) Venezuela, returned to England in the 1970s to a parish in the Peterborough diocese. His son became Dean of Worcester. The formal basis of his consecration (in Toronto) was that he was a Suffragan of the Diocese of Trinidad and Tobago.
Isn’t Mowbray O’Rourke buried in the Shrine Church at Walsingham?
Yes he is. To the left of the Annunciation altar as you go in.
Thank you.
I think it is appalling to see a Eucharist where the celebrant waves her right hand around whilst clutching an iPad (from which she reads) in the other. No dignity, no proper liturgy and no idea how appalling this looks. Obviously, she has been promoted to the hierarchy.
What’s wrong with using an iPad (or other tablet)?
Those early Christians who introduced codices into services — whatever next? What happened to good, traditional dignified scrolls?
You are right. Next time I say mass I’ll wave a scroll in the air.
Or a whoopee cushion?
How about waving a roll in the air?
If there’s a Gregg’s nearby a nice sausage roll would do .
You write dignified scrolls. I didn’t find any of these services dignified. I was able to see the faith and commitment of the congregation and worship leaders. I did not see anything that was familiar to me, nothing that set this worship apart from the daily routine of life. I suppose that is the point. But no collect, no blessing, no structure. I’ve never seen anything like it.
One long-overdue reform is that the entire order of service, including the text AND SCORE of any hymns or worship songs, should be available for the entire congregation. Struggling across multiple books to find the next collect, prayer or hymn is terribly off-putting and surely drives some people away. So, if I am not clear, I don’t mean that people have to click through to various sections, I mean the specific service should be provided as a single document. And, perhaps more importantly given the average age of many congregations, if available for individuals’ phones and tablets anyone with poor… Read more »
Good thinking, but someone’s got to prepare the paperwork, which takes quite a bit of time.
Hardly. The Church of England could have an app for the person leading worship to use. Tick the sections you want and get it automatically compiled. Link to copyright so the parish gets charged if necessary for music. It would take less time than the present system.
(Incidentally it would also ensure that only authorised liturgy was used as the app wouldn’t cope with anything else.)
Yes and no – – I use the Daily Prayer app for Morning Prayer which happily prepares the bible reading, collect, canticle, pslam, etc – all together in one place I can scroll down. It does frustrate me when I try to follow a live-stream Morning Prayer that each person does it differently – – that’s “ok” – some miss out a few prayers some do only 1 Psalm – but it would really help if they could say before hand. It should be relatively simple to do the same for Sunday Services. One think I liked about visiting Ely… Read more »
The content of the Daily Prayer app may look pretty simple, but I can assure you that it is actually pretty complicated. And it is only a fraction of the level of complication that a service of Holy Communion can be. And as for a generic Service of the Word — that’s another level again.
My parish has stopped printing out hymns, readings etc for people, partly because of the time involved, but also the cost, financial and environmental, of the paper we were churning out. I’m sure some will think us very cruel for expecting people to be able to look up a hymn in the book…
An excellent point. The parish church that I attend has been doing just that for decades, including large print versions. It has also in the past translated the sermon into Russian and Mandarin. No more trying to find the correct page or hymn book.
It looks a fairly vibrant parish to me (300 on the roll – and over 250 attending in October USa etc) despite not being everyone’s flavour! Parish Share paid to the Diocese of Guildford is £120,000 (not too shabby) but the next incumbent will have their work cut out. The Easter Centre was a major building project (2018 ?) with debt remaining of circa £900,000, but current repayments are clearly covered by pledges. As an affirming (almost post-) evangelical maybe I should comment on the lack of proper liturgical provision and use of the lectionary, but let’s not knock it.… Read more »
Oh, they’ve raised money. That excuses everything else!
I sometimes wonder if you realise how much your comments come across as lacking humility.
Do you think this is a helpful question?
Why do you think it’s so important for the CofE to hold to certain traditions, but other parts of canon law are open debate and in fact a travesty that we haven’t changed yet? What gave you the divine insight to say?
They could be just as vibrant and still fulfill the vows their clergy (no Readers in view that I could see very clearly) have taken about authorised liturgy!
Still no openly disabled Bishops I notice…
Genuine question – to what extent and in what kind of way(s) does one need to be disabled to identify as ‘disabled’, in order to be a bishop from that ‘community’ (again if ‘community’ is a helpful term here? Some of our fathers and mothers in God have hearing and sight impairments, and some of our still active honorary assistants are a mite frail – but maybe these are not enough to ‘count’ in an identitarian sense?
And another evangelical bishop!
Well a bravo for all these collectively rather bitchy effective character assassinations of Canon Esther. With all this wearisome “another evangelical” stuff going on and a liturgy which might not suit some sensibilities. I would like to rejoice that a clear talent has found recognition and her leadership skills recognized. Aside from only using a short bible reading, she has an impressive and broad ministerial experience. I know which one I would prefer.
There’s no character assassination. Rather a puzzled questioning how someone whose church bears only a passing resemblance to the CofE could become a Bishop!
A century and a half ago – and less – people were asking the same question about priests who wore vestments, lit candles on the holy table, used incense, replaced bread with wafers, added the Benedictus and Agnus Dei – and more – to the BCP, or reordered the BCP altogether, translated RC services for Holy Week, replaced Matins with a Sung Eucharist, imported confessionals and statues, etc etc. in more recent decades people may have asked the same question about bishops who have only ever used the Roman rite in their parishes. I’m not sure Anglo-Catholics – of whom… Read more »
I’m sure some people in the diocese of Bath and Wells back in 1937 investigated with some tut-tutting what sort of services their incoming Bishop, Francis Underhill, used to conduct at St Alban’s Birmingham.
Indeed. There were probably many disgruntled guardians of Protestant Truth! And I’m guessing had Underhill remained in Birmingham he would have found himself censured by Bishop Barnes.
Having had my heart ‘strangely warmed’ at Compline and Benediction at St Alban’s over three decades ago I am thankful for Underhill’s legacy.
Thank you for the fair observation.
Sorry- I was not trying to be bitchy about Canon Esther herself , and certainly not to assassinate her character. I’m pleased we have another female bishop and I wish her well. But, with only the odd pinch of Makin thrown in most of the recent posts have been all about episcopal appointments- 6 I think after recent stalemates? In my head I’ve been calling it ‘Much Ado About Bishops’ …. I’m not an insider, and have no idea whose son- in- law who might be. But it does seem strange that these people appear, many clearly from the Evangelical… Read more »
F.y.i – As a Suffragan (or Assistant) not a diocesan bishop – this is unrelated to the CNC process that was “allegedly” deadlocked. CNC are perhaps more likely to consider people as possible candidates if they have Suffragan experience, but otherwise the processes are not linked. The Archbishop does not get a veto or etc on them so this isn’t Justin’s doing, it will be the relevant Diocesan Bishops who want to appoint. Suffragans do not set the tempo in the same way as a Diocesan – and even then, there will be parishes happily going a different direction – so… Read more »
Well, as this thread heads off down (familiar?) TA rabbit holes, it appears the heat is off the newly appointed bishop of Truro – currently garnering just 41 comments to Canon Prior’s 108. Presumably her husband is not the Ashes winning England wicket keeper? 😉
Although the diocesan has the patronage (under the Act) in the appointment of suffragan, the archbishop of the province concerned sends the letter (in effect a letter of support) to Downing Street, so in theory the nomination of a suffragan can be blocked. In practice (I advised the diocesan on five such appointments), the diocesan sends the shortlist to Lambeth or Bishopthorpe in advance so s/he knows that the eventual nomination will carry the requisite support.
And we saw 20 or so years ago what happens when the archbishop does not support the nomination of a person as suffragan bishop. If they are prepared to say they will not consecrate the said person then that person won’t become the suffragan bishop. That veto may well be exercised at an earlier stage of the process.
We will never know the conversation +Harries had with ++Williams, but whatever it was the letter went to Downing Street. The rest, sadly, is history.
It will be interesting to see how Bishop Esther relates to more sacramental and liturgical churches,moderate catholic parishes,”inclusive “parishes etc and they to her, and how she functions as a ” focus of unity” and a bishop for all the parishes in her charge.
It is not about liturgy not suiting some sensibilities – it is about the worship missing key things which Anglicans value and the Canons demand -like Bible readings! I would most times prefer the style of worship found in these churches but you can have that within Anglican frameworks. If you are going to hold senior office you need to know what is expected in terms of worship and be willing to guide parishes into better practice (or point them to someone who can.)
Hear, hear!
When this style of worship falls out of favour, as it inevitably will, the Church of England will be left with nothing at all.
Yes, there will be nothing left. I see Ms Prior has an ambition that 10 per cent of Birmingham people come and listen to her (and her ilk) reading from an iPad.
Aren’t we forgetting huge bits of history? Do we regard the great Percy Dearmer’ highly experimental Sunday evening gatherings, often in non church settings, as a betrayal of Anglican tradition!!!
Like Dearner I hope I’ve tried to pay attention to what the spirit is saying to the churches. As so.one who would still see himself as a Catholic Anglican, I’m deeply aware that most of the churches I’ve served, including my current one, have been fundamentally post denominational. I’d suggest that we need to learn to welcome this as a gift.
Interesting coincidence that Percy Dearmer and Ralph Vaughan Williams feature in the same thread. Didn’t they between them compile the modern version of John Bunyan’s ‘Who would true valour see’?
But the overwhelming majority of the church stuck to the Prayer Book so that, when Percy’s little experiments died out, there was a tradition to fall back on whereas evangelicals are erasing Anglican liturgy and order everywhere. I can also guarantee that, in the eyes of the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and many conservative Protestant churches, your parish is not considered ‘post-denominational.’ They don’t think their tradition is obsolete even if you do.
It’s the “non denominational” CofE that is in the ascendancy. This is not a gift. It’s a death knell.
Mervyn Stockwood initiated the ‘People’s Service’ in the working class parish of St Matthews Moorfield Bristol when he was Vicar. Described as a ‘hymn sandwich’ with a variety of Christian and secular speakers. Apparently he robed in cassock, gown and preaching tabs.
The Act of Uniformity Amendment Act 1872 (a.k.a. the Shortened Services Act) made provision for additional forms of service on Sundays, and these have been legal since then, though the Act was repealed and replaced by the Worship and Doctrine Measure 1974. The key point is that such services were not allowed to replace the statutory forms of MP, EP and HC, which were still to be used on Sundays and Holy Days. But they were additional services.
Indeed she has an ambition for 10% of the diocese of Birmingham to be worshipping in a CofE church. I’m assuming it’s her first visit to Birmingham. She’s unaware of the number of mosques. It’s unlikely that any number of Muslims are going to convert or that anyone else is going to join a rotten failing CofE. There’s also a cultural disconnect. I recall Sentamu as Bishop of Birmingham preaching at a leafy Evangelical church which was celebrating a significant anniversary. His sermon was about gun crime in Birmingham. He didn’t stay to talk to anyone afterwards because the local… Read more »
As someone with a Vicar who used to be Muslim – – I find the idea that we should not even bother trying to convert muslims a bit alarming….
Why bother? What do you think that Christianity offers that Islam doesn’t? Most converts to Islam in this country (80%) were previously Christians.
Jesus.
Christianity has Jesus to offer.
If you are unsure what significance that is, then I would like to think there are many Bishops who can tell you about the significance and uniqueness of Christ.
Muslims revere Jesus.
Sadly they don’t, if Muslims revered Jesus then they would honour his followers. Instead, Muslim countries compose 9 of the 10 most dangerous countries in the world to be a Christian.
Mr Putin is an Orthodox Christian but is very dangerous. Claiming to be a Christian doesn’t make one safer than being a Muslim.
I don’t think the Balkans were a very safe place for Muslims when the very devout Dr Karadjic was in a postion of power.
Where is the most dangerous place in the world to be a human being? And who is making it so dangerous? A Jewish country supported and armed by a Christian country.
Amen Amen Amen
I don;t want to open a huge discussion – it deserves maybe a separate thread – but neither the UK nor USA is a Christian country, and the fact that UK supplies ‘weapons’ could mean defence items or weapons of destruction. Trump, I evaluated once, has broken 9/10 of the ten commandments, and breaks every one of the Beatitudes. Going to church does not necessarily make you a Christian. Look at how US (and UK) looks after the poor and needy. I doubt anybody on the web site would try to defend all Netenyahu (and his cabinet) actions. We are… Read more »
Mty father wrote a book in 1956 which described in detail the discussions held in the UN in 1945. He was realistic, talked about long standing disputes and ‘the Palestine problem’, and emphasised that the UN made resolutions but did not do anything to enact them. UK miltary was very reluctant to keep any peace keeping forces there post war, and withdrew. Nobody filled the vacuum.
Actually they do. As the prophet Issa.
The prophet gave the Monastery of S Catherine on Mt Sinai a document giving them safety from Islamic invaders.
Life may have become more nuanced but there are plenty of instances both past and present of good relationships between Christian ans Muslim communities.
Muslims DO revere Jesus. Fact.
Perhaps you could tell me that? Or are you waiting to become a bishop before you are able to do so? You are aware that every human being, including Jesus of Nazareth, is unique, aren’t you?
I may come back with a concise explanation of the divinity of Christ, or why Jesus offers hope in hisnlove in a way that other faiths cannot. But I was so shocked to see someone on this forum be so dismissive of Christ. This is a forum that is arguing about the miniature of who does what part of a service, who can do a blessing – but yet doesn’t seem to have such confidence from people in the god that we are asking the blessing from – or see’s no difference between the God that Islam teaches about and… Read more »
So you can’t answer the question then. You’d better keep working towards that bishop’s hat.
It seems you’re trying taunt me in some way by saying I’m not ready for be a Bishop. I’m not sure why – – Anyway – – any member of the church, lay or ordained, ought to be able to explain their faith (although you’d like to believe professional preachers and/or Bishops would be better at it) – so I will give an account here assuming no background knowledge on your part (as you are offering none). Matthew – the faith I have is something that could be described with many layers; I know the core that Jesus loves me,… Read more »
I do not contribute under a pseudonym. You know who I am and where I live, so you should reasonably assume that I have many Muslim neighbours and friends, and therefore that I know something about Islam. I do know the Quran very well in English, and somewhat less well in Arabic. You have presented the usual caricature of Islam. First and foremost God is invoked before anything else as merciful and compassionate (rehman wa rahim). This should tell you something of the nature of God towards man. He is also given the title, amongst others, as ‘the Forgiver’ –… Read more »
I have given a basic differentiation which is what you asked for, Allah is not a God of love – as i understand those words. But I don’t think a web forum is a good place for long theological discussion so I dont really have a desire to engage deeper. I think you’ll know that books could be written on the subject of comparing religions and the occasional PhD so I don’t see how you could expect more than a surface level summary of that content within this space. Your counter points don’t make sense at the surface level to… Read more »
I live in Birmingham. You do know that Allah is the Arabic word for God, don’t you, and that it is used by Arabic speaking Christians as well as Muslims? You possibly don’t know that the Urdu word for God is Khuda and that this is used by the majority of Muslims in India and Pakistan. The majority of British Muslims use the word God. The God portrayed in the Bible (Allah in Arabic Bibles) is not very loving at all a lot of the time. Yet every Surah of the Quran bar one begins with the invocation of God… Read more »
Thank you for proving my point
And what point was that, exactly?
Allah is the Arab language equivalent of Hebrew El, but with the termination meaning “the God.”
Not quite. It is a contraction of Al Ilah – ‘ilah’ being the cognate of the Hebrew ‘elohim’. Arab Christians quite often write it in full rather than in contracted form but still pronounce it in the same way as their Muslim brothers and sisters.
There is little doubt that “Allah” means “the God.” Your philosophical (I take it) point about Allah meaning ‘God” in the same way others use the word, is vacuous, Yes, there are lots of similarities between cognate words–that’s baked in–but the content of the scriptures in question tell us who this God is and what is the character being described. Elohim in Hebrew is a generic, and so can also mean ‘gods.’ The reality of the divine generically referred. But the God of Israel has a personal name. YHWH. YHWH Elohim. And in Christian theology, that name is also shared… Read more »
I think you might be getting confused between philosophy and philology, Christopher. They do sound a bit similar, I suppose.
I agree that when you try to think philosophically, you don’t know how poor you are at it.
I have a PhD in Old Testament and semitic languages from Yale.
Merry Christmas, or if you prefer, Allahu akbar.
And yet you don’t know that ‘al’ is the definite article in Arabic?
Let me give you a basic primer. There is East semitic (Akkadian). NW semitic (Ugaritic). South semitic (Arabic). Hebrew and Aramaic. Prior to the discovery of texts in Akkadian (a vast corpus in syllabary form; extremely difficult to learn) and Ugaritic (smaller, alphabetic corpus), students of Hebrew learned Aramaic, and Arabic. In the 19th century. The problem with the latter, as the joke goes, “in Lane’s Arabic dictionary, every word means itself, its opposite, and something to do with a camel.” So it was always of limited usefulness. In some older Hebrew lexicons, Arabic cognates appear. Today, instead Ugaritic and… Read more »
You really do set yourself up, don’t you, Christopher?
You thought in an earlier post that the Al part of Allah meant God, and the Lah part meant ‘the’. Read your post again. Perhaps you were just being careless.
Careless, en route to the heart of the matter in question: The God of Islam. The tiny world to which you refer never interested me. “The God” (allah) is not “The elohim” in any event. And as I said, Arabic has ceased being of scholarly interest to students of NE languages, given the rise of Akkadian and Ugaritic studies, and the sprawling character of the Arabic language as useful to such study. As for setting oneself up, you have the market cornered. I see you have given up speaking of matters of importance (in your view) about the superiorities of… Read more »
Do you really think Islam gives us as much as Christianity? Islam denies the Trinity, the deity of Christ and can offer us no confidence that we are forgiven.
I take it you have never sat with a new convert from an Islamic background who has just discovered the wonder of knowing God as Father, rejoicing in forgiveness as they kneel before Christ. The gospel is utterly wonderful.
What you say describes vast chasms of spiritual differentiation in the CofE (and elsewhere) when it comes to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the power of the Holy Trinity. Thank you.
Christians spent a substantial part of their early history disagreeing violently and often murderously about the definitions of these dogmas, neither of which is explicitly supported by scripture. I think the sectarian violence was particularly acute in North Africa. It is hardly surprising that people there welcomed an uncomplicated creed proclaiming a merciful and compassionate God when it came to them. I take it you have never sat down with a Muslim revert from Christianity? Have you sat down with someone who has just discovered the Lord Krishna, or Zen Buddhism or Wicca? All such epiphanies and changes of lifestyle… Read more »
It sounds like I am correct in thinking that you have never sat with someone who has recently become a Christian having grown up Muslim. I do worship Jesus as God, I do rejoice that my sins are forgiven, I am awed that I get to speak to the ruler of the universe as “Our Father”. It has not been a one off experience of elation, it is a daily experience. Do you worship Jesus as God? Do you know what it is to be forgiven and to come boldly before the throne knowing that it is a place of… Read more »
If it is just a reassuring sense of being blessed that is given, then the Melanesian cargo cult religion does just as well. The Melanesian islander feels blessed and reassured when the plane flies overhead as you feel blessed and reassured when you shut your eyes and really believe Jesus is in the room with you. Why is your religious experience more valid than his? Because your God is real? But he says his God is real too. He can point to him in the sky, which you can’t do with your God.
Did the evangelicals in the leafy suburb never discuss the shootings elsewhere in their city? Did none of them work, shop, or visit in areas where there was more crime? If so, the sermon was relevant. If not, they needed reminding what life was like for others in their city.
The sermon was wholly irrelevant as the service was to commemorate the founder of the church ie the one who gave the land and financed the building. If a service is held to honour Joe Bloggs, the sermon should reflect this, at the very least mention him. Sentamu instead wanted to talk about something in the news.
If you know Birmingham, you’ll know that there’s a degree of separation. Those living in so called millionaire’s row, don’t work or shop or visit areas of high crime.
The BCP will be left, to be rediscovered by a new generation. Keep the faith baby!
And Darke in F
It won’t. It requires quires and places where they sing, and a huge attention span, and a knowledge of Elizabethan English, and a peculiarly broad brand of non-puritanical Protestantism. It’ll sadly go into oblivion like ash-trays, spittoons and the Church of England.
That makes it sound suspiciously like an idol.
The Prayer Book services are wholly scriptural. It’s much more attuned to the kind of Jewish prayer our Lord was familiar with and prayed: the psalms, commandments, Shema’, the Lord’s Prayer itself is very similar to the Kaddish. Many evangelical hymns (and Victorian ones) verge on the idolatrous, however. And are nothing like what we see in Scripture.
“It’ll sadly go into oblivion like ash-trays, spittoons and the Church of England.”
Thanks for the laugh.
I fear that may well be delusional.
That was a common argument in the Royal Household, most famously exhibited in the fuss over flags atop Buckingham Palace after Diana died. The Queen was sensible enough to realise that tradition needed to change and ordered the Union Flag flown at half mast on the day of Diana’s funeral.
People on TA keep asking for people who have shown independence to be chosen as bishops then, when someone is, the response seems to be “Not that sort of independence” lol
We like independence within the CofE not from it.
As for the “yet another evangelical” viewpoint, it should surely be borne in mind that many Anglo-Catholics, some of whom could have been destined for the episcopate, left the C of E and joined the Ordinariate, where one of them – David Waller – has indeed become a bishop. By default, there are rather more evangelicals from whom to appoint bishops. More generally, though, there was a five year gap between the appointment of +Philip North to Burnley and +William Hazlewood to Lewes. Had there been a similar gap between the consecutive appointments of two women, or two ethnic minortity,… Read more »
These comments have made for very interesting reading! The most crucial thing to me is whether or not the good Canon’s choices as Incumbent carry with them an ignorance of other traditions. When made a Bishop, can she operate effectively in the tradition of each Church within which she finds herself presiding or preaching, and do that with good grace and a sufficient degree of comfort? Or will she be of the ‘this is my style, like it or lump it’ variety? I’ve seen both, as I’m sure many of us have. These days it isn’t enough to plough your… Read more »
I think that the general understanding of a Bishop going back to the Fathers of the Church that a Bishop has to be a person of Unity within a Diocese and within the Anglican Polity of a Diocese an Anglican Bishop cannot be a Bishop whether Diocesan or Suffragan simply for Evangelicals, for Anglo Catholics or for Central Church people but has to be the the Bishop for the whole Diocese, so that they cannot for example in liturgical Episcopal Vesture adopt a one Size fits all approach and decide for example it will be just Convocational Robes, and No… Read more »
Some older bishops will look silly in T-shirt and shabby jeans which is de rigueur in many happy-clappy parishes.
There should be the equivalent to a curacy for bishops
Isn’t that what archdeacons are for?! Or, for the really ambitious / talented, being a suffragan / area bishop!
Its called parish ministry!
That is silly
“70% of ordinands are evangelical”. Where is the evidence for this please? And if this is the case, why are there so few ordinands from the other traditions within the Church of England?
There is an interesting paper by Gordon Kuhrt tracking numbers at Anglican theological colleges of different traditions between 1963 and 2003. In that time evangelicals moved from being 33% to 69% of ordinands. https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/anvil/24-1_041.pdf I understand that the number of evangelicals has only grown with the explosion of those studying at St Mellitus. I can’t find recent figures, but here is an article from 6 years ago which states 70%. I am told that is quite a conservative figure. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/13/church-of-england-evangelical-drive My own observation is that many move away from evangelicalism once in ministry (and I think they could be a… Read more »
Thank you. I will check out those sources. I believe the number of those going forward for ordination has declined significantly in the last 5 years.
I think you are correct about that.
Hardly surprising given the sad mess the church has got itself into!!
Yes and the figures broken down by TEI make interesting reading – we have just been sent them but I don’t think I am allowed to share them. Suffice to say that residential training is finding it hard to recruit (with some exceptions) and regional courses are surviving better – for now.
It would be interesting to see this breakdown when available. I understand some potential ordinands who take a conservative line on LBGT issues are waiting to see what happens re LLF before committing themselves to ordination. Is this reflected in the numbers?
Or is residential training down because of concern about future prospects? Given the continuing decline in attendance there will inevitably be fewer clergy roles and a reluctance to be out of the secular job market is entirely understandable.
I believe the cost involved is an issue affecting residential training. I haven’t yet found any research as to why there are so few ordinands from the non-evangelical parts of the Church of England.
The statistics are stark and much worse than people imagine I think: six out of ten theological colleges have fewer than twenty full time residential students, only one has more than forty, and the number of those recommended for training of any sort under 35 is now only 15% of the total.
When and why did it all go so horribly wrong for the Church of England. This morning I dug out a report on Archbishop Welby’s first press conference. Here’s a flavour from https://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/articles/beginning-well-a-reflection-on-justin-welbys-first-press-conference-at-lambeth/ ‘I left the office to head over to Lambeth Palace this morning, I was in good heart. We have a new Archbishop, and by all accounts he is the right choice. How many candidates could gain the ringing endorsement of both Giles Fraser of Inclusive Church and Rod Thomas of Reform?…The Guardian and the Telegraph both acclaimed him…As I arrived and saw the massed ranks of cameras… Read more »
I read in the Guardian in 2016 that only 15% were under 40. With the decline in ordinands, the ageing of existing clergy, ageing congregations in small churches ( in my diocese the median size congregation is significantly less than 40), church closures and joining up of parishes appear to be inevitable.
There is quite a bit of research out there, but the simple reality is that not enough parishes encourage vocations, or dioceses have created so many iterations of lay ministry (not a bad thing) but it has been at the expense of fostering vocations to ordained ministry.
I suspect that the focus on lay ministry is in part due to a lack of ordinands.
These are very worrying trends for the future since residential colleges tend to have a younger cohort than the non-residential courses who therefore have more years of active ministry ahead of them at the point of ordination. However, the colleges are now nearly all strongly allied with one or other theological tradition and I believe the church is better served by priests who can work across those traditions rather than being limited to them. By contrast, the courses mix people from different traditions and my experience was that almost everyone finds that valuable and it helps people prepare for the… Read more »
Multi-parish benefices are, I believe, part of the problem. Any newly appointed minister spends most, if not all, of their time keeping “the plates spinning”. They are soon worn out and discouraged with no time or energy to do more than manage the inevitable decline. Not a prospect that is likely to encourage ordinands. I would suspect that most ordinands come from single parish benefices with a congregation above the median size.
Yes, multiparish ministry is very demanding but it’s been the norm in many rural areas for decades. Urban clergy have lots to learn from those who’ve ministered in rural dioceses, much more than the other way around. There can be a mismatch between the experience of church life many ordinands gain in large, gathered city centre congregations which have large staff teams, and the reality of the great majority of parishes. They can then carry a model of ‘church in the mind’ that is very different from the reality, leading to disillusionment. They can also sometimes try to mould parishes… Read more »
As this discussion began with the Suffragan Bishop of Aston, if I may mention another suffragan, Bishop Sophie, Doncaster. At the beginning of November, she was announced as the next Bishop of Coventry. It was easy to assume that she’d be in her new post by Easter 2025, which is at the near end of April, nearly six months after the announcement, But it’s been announced that she won’t be moving to the diocese until the Bishop’s House has been refurbished, scheduled to be completed by end of May 2025. If the refurbishment over runs, she’ll wait. This is unconsionable.… Read more »
I agree. Back in the late 70s, my Dad was appointed as an archdeacon. It was a huge move for the family, and the “tied cottage” did need some improvements, but in order not to delay the ministerial work, he borrowed a caravan and camped there for a few months until we could all move in. Priorities do matter.
I live in the same road as the Bishop’s House in Coventry. I was a little taken aback to discover that the house needs five months of renovation to make it habitable.
Especially after such a long vacancy. Was it let during that period?
No, though the acting bishop has been using the house. I would have thought that putting her up elsewhere pro tem and getting the builders in would have been the sensible thing to do if work on such a scale is required. But that would have required some forward thinking…
The Bishop’s House in Coventry is a suburban detached house, part domestic/part office space. The Acting Bishop of Coventry has been living there part time for more than a year, commuting between Wells and Coventry. She’s been told that her term comes to an end on the afternoon of Christmas Eve. Thereafter the domestic space will be unoccupied.