As readers probably already know Justin Welby was interviewed by the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg on 30 March. You can listen to the interview here, and watch it here. There has been much reporting and comment on the interview; some is below.
Laura Kuenssberg BBC Justin Welby: I failed to act on abuse scandal as scale was ‘overwhelming’
Laura Kuenssberg and Sean Seddon BBC Welby: I forgive serial abuser John Smyth
Laura Kuenssberg BBC After Justin Welby’s failures, obscurity is perhaps not his to choose
Madeleine Davies Church Times Welby looks back at his Smyth decisions and resignation in BBC interview
Harriet Sherwood The Guardian Justin Welby was too ‘overwhelmed’ by scale of abuse in C of E to take action
Ben Quinn and Harriet Sherwood The Guardian Justin Welby says he forgives serial abuser John Smyth
Tim Wyatt The New Statesman The confessions of Justin Welby
Angela Tilby Church Times BBC interview shows tragedy of Welby
Stephen Parsons Surviving Church Welby and Kuenssberg
Rebecca Chapman The Spectator What was the point of Justin Welby’s reconciliation interview?
Tim Wyatt The Critical Friend The scandal of grace
Andrew Brown The slow deep hover Here we go again
Douglas LeBlanc The Living Church Welby’s Interview Prompts New Backlash
I thought Tim Wyatt’s article spot on. far too easy to jump on the Welby-bashing bandwagon. Would any of us have done a better job?
I see the bandwagon is being boarded below.
I know there are homeless: but I own a home. I know there are people desperately hungry: but I choose what to have for dinner I know there are people facing injustice: but I am silent I could go on, of course. There is a long list of things I know about and which I could do something about. I might not solve them – my efforts could have miniscule effect- but I could do more than I am. In that I am no better than Welby, so no, maybe I wouldn’t have done a better job. But I didn’t… Read more »
Laus Deo
Indeed
Yes, because if I were in his position I would not have interrupted my much needed contemplative prayer to do an unnecessary interview that only could result in further harm to the church I am no longer leading.
It had PR disaster written all over it and the fact that the man could not see that, or allowed his own hubris to override it is a point of justified criticism.
it has become far too easy to try and counter justified criticism by saying it is bandwagon jumping. It is a lazy and overused line of counterattack.
I thought I had got the first thrust in first, and then (predictably) others counter attacked?
I mean Tim Wyatt”s article in the Critical Friend, not the one in The Spectator.
I have little respect for most of the other articles linked above.
Nor even Tim Wyatt in the New Statesman, perhaps Nigel?
yes, that one! I liked the Critical friend one, not the new statesman one.
Most of the articles make very pertinent points about, for example, Justin Welby’s past inability to ‘read the room’, abstract compassion for victims not matched by concrete interpersonal action, and a muddled theology of forgiveness. Welby’s public agonising suggests that he is increasingly aware of this. Angela Tilby nailed it with her customary clarity and charity: “I found it impossible not to be moved as he sat still like a prisoner, or at least as a penitent … ” Being so moved is a desirable human response, not least for the Christian community. It should, though, in no way detract… Read more »
“A muddled theology of forgiveness”. And there’s a lot of it about; as in Tim Wyatt’s otherwise thoughtful piece in Critical Friend in which he reduces a hard won craft – the work of a lifetime, and even beyond, for some – to a fridge magnet slogan for the Christian life.
Much to reflect on as we enter Passiontide.
I was referring less to +Justin’s words, which he did go on to qualify, and more to Tim Wyatt’s glib: “Like it or lump it. We are the forgiveness people.” In The Brothers Karamazov, Ivan puts to Aloysha, his pious brother, the case of the landlord who throws the child of one of his serfs to the dogs: “I don’t want the child’s mother to embrace the torturer. The sufferings of her tortured child she has no right to forgive.”
I think that’s right: in the case you mention the mother cannot forgive the perpetrator for what he took from the child. But she can forgive him for what he did to her, including the loss of her child. (In the real world forgiveness is much messier than it might be in the theoretical world, however.)
Agreed. in the modern world we see the sufferings of children in war and the issue of forgiveness is to the front. I was amazed, in my trips to USA, how many vietnamese have settled and prospered there, and seem to get on with their lives. Reconciliation – isn’t that one of Welby’s priorities?
aren’t many of them ‘South’ Vietnamese historically?
I’ve listened to the interview carefully again. When he answered the question ‘do you forgive Smyth’ and answered ‘yes’, I think what he meant was ‘I forgive Smyth for what he has done to me, but I am in no position to forgive him for what he did to the victims’.
Which is very similar to the story Simon mentions.
I don’t think other interpretations stand up to scrutiny.
Others may differ.
If that is indeed the correct assumption then Welby should have made that absolutely crystal clear. He should not need to rely on after the fact apologetics. Better yet, he could have not done the interview in the first place, he was not compelled to do so.
I do not blame the man for all the failings of the church on safeguarding, but I do hold him accountable for his role in it including the woeful decision to undertake this interview that has caused only further damage to the Church.
A craft? I thought forgiveness was an activity, a decision?
Clearly from my postings I have been an advocate for truth and justice and independent safeguarding. But laying all the blame at Welby’s feet is a mistake made by journalists, or Angela Tilby. and is a convenient diversion from the need of the CoE to reform itself. Welby is simply a lightning rod for the secular world and sadly for some from within the church.
If the man continues to walk outside in the middle of storm wearing wet copper armour with a pointed hat, what is to be expected?
Late last year the prospects of his obtaining a life peerage were starting to look slender. Query whether the interview has harmed his prospects still further, perhaps conclusively. It has been a mere convention, and Sentamu arguably received one only by the skin of his teeth and after 10 months. Hopefully, it is now a convention that has now reached its end point.
A useful idiot to divert us from the real problems?
Paraphrase: ‘I was stupid to give that final speech’ says the man who is giving an interview, and repeating his mistakes in traumatising victims and survivors by his lack of action, empathy and understanding…
A commenter on the Stephen Parsons blog describes the interview as Welby’s “Prince Andrew moment”. That nails it. It was cringeworthy and uncomfortable to watch.
It was uncomfortable to watch- was he perhaps advised to do it to ensure everyone else left was given a clear run?. But the Church of England is not a one man band Where was everyone else during JW’s tenure? His advisers, his colleagues, William Nye, the AC , and on and on. Where are they now , rushing to put things right for victims and survivors- not. Where is ABY (when not bullying the XWarrington)?
The entire picture is unedifying in the extreme
The best thing Welby could do is keep his mouth shut and avoid the limelight as much as possible. The damage he continues to do every time he opens his mouth is astounding, and I have yet to meet anyone of any churchmanship who thinks otherwise.
You haven’t yet met me! Never say never – it only takes a single contrary case to demolish your thesis.
Sorry – flippant remark. Had a touch of the sun.
How many times will we allow Justin Welby to fail to provide that contrary case before we conclude he is incapable of doing so?
I am a contrary case.
A thought that comes to mind when Bishop Welby was asked if he forgave John Smyth, is Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s warning about the dangers of Cheap Grace. Jonathan
I suspect it was a deliberate journalistic trap and he fell into it. I’m not sure Kuenssberg in asking that question had much understanding or real interest in the Christian implications of forgiveness.
I so agree! As a retired journalist, I am all too aware of the desire to ‘score’ when an interviewee is trapped into saying stupid things, or saying things stupidly.
That is why the church has a communications officer, team, to prepare for obvious traps. At every level in the whole Smyth case, interviewees have behaved like rabbits in the headlights ( Remember poor Rose on Channel 4)
Absolutely.
I am sure i will get a lot of kick-back for the following, but will say it anyway. I have a lot of sympathy for Justin Welby. Not only because we taught at the same school in Kenya, Kiburu secondary School. Yes, sometimes the words he says could have been more carefully considered, but I like that kind of vulnerability. I am minded of Keir Starmer, who at the start of the Gaza war was caught out on LBC. But if you look at the Labour party policies, which he would have been behind, they were very clear and called… Read more »
Don’t think, don’t say, don’t ask questions, Isn’t that how we got into this mess in the first place?
Surely what I was encouraging was the opposite of what you accuse me? I am one of those whose stateents can be easily misinterpreted – I was trying to expand the agenda, and divert focus from the bandwagon, of which we have had far too much. ‘The rest’ is the bandwagon.
Just who are you including in your admonition to ‘be silent’? The Smyth survivors who have spoken out since the interview to say that Justin Welby has still not apologised to them? The survivors whose cases were being dealt with by the ISB personnel who were summarily sacked, and who have been left dangling ever since? Those who reported their abuse to Lambeth Palace in 2013 and are still waiting for compensation? Why should they be silent? And why should Justin Welby be more deserving of our prayers than those victims and survivors are?
Hear! Hear!
A few strawmen there. I don;t see a need to rake over old ground, I never said Welby is more deserving, I said he is deserving. I stand my ground.
When I said ‘be silent’ i did not of course mean ‘be silent’, I meant stop leaping onto the anti-Welby bandwagon. That should have been clear without my having to explain.
Nobody is undeserving of our prayers. I don’t need to insult this audience by reminding them of the teachings of Jesus.
You wrote, ‘The rest, be silent.’ Complainants have often been told to be silent. How are we to know that when you telll us to be silent, you don’t mean us?
I don’t want to add many words, it has been gone over many times before, but when I say ‘silent’ I do not mean the survivors and abused, and they should certainly direct their voices at many.
I have talked previously about ‘hungering and thirsting for righteousness’, as you know.
Tim Wyatt says “All in all, I have a big dollop of sympathy with Welby’s predicament.”
So do I.
Wish I could “like” your comment Janet, very well said.
Apart from the fact that i never suggested the survivors remain silent?
Minor correction, what princes Andrew & Harry lost was right to wear the uniforms of their special royal honorary senior ranks in the military, not their last active service rank. For Andrew his last service rank was Commander RN (though even that was a special royal promotion for his final specially established job in London!), while Harry made it to Captain in the Army Air Corps. Wearing these uniforms on a formal occasion would have been their right as retired officers, but it would have been an all too obvious step down from 3* Flag Rank (Vice Admiral) in the… Read more »
I thought the correct uniform for retired officers was bowler hat and rolled brolly!
Bowler & rolled umbrella rig is for Brigade of Guards in particular, though other Pongoes may follow suit. Naval folk would not waste their drinking money on either item.
BTW, when i wrote ‘the rest, be slent’ I was minded of Wittgenstein. It was my mistake to assume all of this audience would catch the allusion. Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. In the world of philosophy, Ludwig Wittgenstein was a formidable figure who left an indelible mark with his profound insights. One of his most intriguing statements is, ‘Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.’ At first glance, this quote may appear enigmatic, but at its core, it carries a simple yet significant message. It suggests that when there are topics or ideas… Read more »
So he thinks he was stupid to give his final speech in the Lords, does he? One of the things I used to emphasise most when I taught reflective practice in the dim and distant past was that the whole purpose of reflective practice was not going through some overengineered (or not) process as some kind of mystical virtue signalling. The purpose lay in changing future actions (or not) in the light of critical reflection on what has gone before. So why, then, has +Welby pushed himself back into the spotlight from which he had successfully retreated, to do himself… Read more »
I am in the process of recovering from a long period without being able to hear. It was only resolved just before Christmas when a skilled technician prescribed more powerful hearing aids. Learning to hear again has not been the instantaneous process that I thought it would be and one of the challenges has been to discern what is ‘noise” and what is not – and as a consequence to value a return to silence. When I heard Justin’s interview I’m afraid it fell into the category of ‘noise’ and created more questions than it resolved and I’m sorry that… Read more »
I find Justin’s decision to be interviewed very selfish. The CofE needs to focus of the next Abp of C, not the last one. This feels like the retired vicar who won’t move out of the parish.
Tim Wyatt writes in The Critical Friend: ‘It is shocking to suggest that even someone guilty of the most horrendous crimes against vulnerable young men, causing lifelong emotional and psychological harm, can be forgiven. It is outrageous for Welby to have the temerity to offer grace out to someone as bad as Smyth. It’s also fundamentally Christian.’ Well, no it isn’t. In Mat 18:6-7 Jesus describes the terrible judgement which will await those who put a stumbling block in the way of ‘these little ones who believe’. Smyth’s brutal and sadistic treatment of these teenagers and young men put a… Read more »
It was a journalistic trap, no more and no less. Both ‘Yes’ and ‘No’ would have generated heat. Similar trap when Starmer was asked about cutting off utilities to Gaza. Top of the head responses, or fabricated headlines, do not do justice to complex issues.
Yes, it was a journalist’s trap, which Welby should have foreseen and been prepared to answer. But my comment above wasn’t about Welby’s fluffed answer. It regards Tim Wyatt’s article and what seems to have become a more common misunderstanding of what Christian forgiveness is.
I prefer Dostoevsky and Simon’s recounting story about Brothers Karamazov, but I think this (the question of forgiveness wrt.Welby) is all tryng to make a mountain out of a molehill, and taking one interpretation of words out of many possible. Do you really think Welby should give a 30 min sermon on forgiveness during a television interview? Similarly Tim Wyatt’s words might have been more carefully chosen, but no need to jump on him, his message about the centrality of forgiveness for a Christian is surely spot on. Tim Wyatt also twists Welby’s words. He didn;t offer grace to Smyth.… Read more »
I must dig out my Lloyd Jones book on the Sermon on the Mount.
What utter nonsense! Ms Kuenssberg is no more responsible for Welby’s words than Cathy Newman, whose original interview preceded his resignation. Blaming the messenger is very Trumpian. You’ll be saying it’s “fake news” next!
Welby could and should have answered “I am not a victim of Smyth so it is not appropriate for me to offer forgiveness.”
Agreed, that is a better response, but hindsight is wonderful.
Whatever is/was wrong about Welby’s actions is amped up considerably by the confusion represented by the CofE in its present form. Is it a Christian Church, a cultural phenomenon, some entity that wants to say its ABC is the moral leader of 80 million people — whatever in the world that is supposed to mean. Really? Moral leader of millions?
He is serving the purpose of a whirling pinata, with everyone taking a whack. And worse of all, he appears to want that role. I do pray he gets better spiritual counsel. He needs healing and silence.
I think you put it well. Looking from the outside as a member of the Scottish Episcopal Church, though bought up in a CofE parsonage, the CofE is totally confused about its role and how it is to function in the twenty-first century. The UK establishment, when it stops to think about it, is confused too.
And wouldn’t it be handy if at the same time it would also consider how to recompense victims and survivors’at pace’ rather than trying to wait them out ?
It certainly would.
For what it’s worth I served in the Diocese of Canterbury prior to Welby’s appointment and as Chair of House of Clergy, was involved in initial conversations concerning a new ABC. I wasn’t elected to be part of CNC from the Diocese. It seemed to me then that the driving force to elect Welby was a need to ‘rescue’ the CoE from continued decline; to put ‘bums on seats’. The HTB model was the rescuer, and Welby, an HTB devotee was the one to do it. Equally, there was a financial driver to Welby’s election: money. More bums on seats… Read more »
I met Welby in his first week in residence at Lambeth Palace. He struck me as irritable, self-important and arch, and confidence-blustering. That seems to have been his consistent demeanor. I saw him later, shortly thereafter, at a ceremony in his honor at the Catholic University in Paris, where he was given a degree. This seemed a bit more hopeful. My wife and I looked on and wished him well. That may have been a genuine high-point for him and his proud wife. I agree with much that you write here, for what it is worth. This ‘you shall save… Read more »
You ask “What were his advisers doing at that time?” It may have been that they were not negligent or incompetent. It may be that their advice was not sought or was ignored. Throughout this debacle the archbishop has shown himself to be tin eared. I tend towards the view that hubris was Archbishop Welby’s downfall. The tragedy is that so many people have suffered – most notably the survivors but also lgbtqi+ people. The CofE is deeply snooty and I think that those responsible for his appointment thought an Old Etonian would be just the man for the job.… Read more »
A lot has been made by others of his ‘managerial experience and financial wizardry’. As an ex-colleague of his at Enterprise Oil, I can assure you his team was tiny (maybe 4 people?) so he had very little experience managing people. He would have communicated with the Chief Executive, but was far from the role. The Chief Executive was mainly technical anyway, total headcount at Enterprise Oil was maybe 400 at the time? I doubt very much he ever displayed financial wizardry, but relied on his team. I cannot think of institutions further apart than an independent oil company and… Read more »
So what price ‘discernment’? And what hope is there for the next ABC selection process ? A lot of readers will be aware of the Stephen Karpman ‘Drama’ triangle with the Victim, Rescuer and Persecutor changing places in potentially destructive relationships. JW , originally nominated as rescuer , could not fulfil an impossible task. He did not hold a money tree and made many wrong decisions about safeguarding. Having resigned he is now seen by many as the victim, with attempts being made to rehabilitate him .Sadly this deflects attention from the real victims whom the Church hierarchy prefers to… Read more »
Interesting perspective. I don’t see him taking on the role of ‘victim’, although he may see himself in that light. But I do see him as worthy of support and prayers, same as everybody else.
Nigel I have never suggested that you or anyone else should not pray for him if they feel moved to do so – he is by all accounts a sick man.But I am concerned that all the air time he attracts deflects attention from the survivors and victims who we are not doing enough for.
I attended the St Matthew Passion in Norwich Cathedral last night . It was a most moving experience- but I could not help thinking at one point that senior religious leaders don’t half have form when it comes to dirty dealings